IDM Mailing Archive

1997-04-04 19:06Humanerr0r@aol.comIn a message dated 03/04/97 22:42:00, you write: > > My Tenor assertion was based on the i

From:: <Humanerr0r@aol.com>
To:: <idm@hyperreal.com>
Date:: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 14:06:32 -0500 (EST)
Subject:: (idm) 100% idm,now that's what I call idm,the best idm album in the world ever

In a message dated 03/04/97 22:42:00, you write:

quoted 3 lines My Tenor assertion was based on the idea that _Intervision_ is not

> > My Tenor assertion was based on the idea that _Intervision_ is not > > evolutionary, rather it was retreading old ground, and not in a > > particularly imaginative way.

Why are you trying to make this out as a bad thing? Not everyone wants to sit in their studio with a white lab coat on and feel pressured to make up some completely new sound that, to most people, would be completely alien, and alienating. Warp have never been about being completely cutting edge have they? Smoker's Delight wasn't at all cutting edge, but I and (I hope) many people consider that to be one of their most enduring and worthwhile releases, simply because it is great music that makes you feel *good*.. We would not have 90% of the classic music of any genre if people felt it necessary to be original and subversive ALL the time. As for imaginitive, well, each to his own, but I thought it was very imaginitive, inspiring even - if it makes people aware of something new and creative in themselves, or it makes them laugh and cry, then Jimi *has* done the right thing.

quoted 1 line In other words, it used precious little of the vocabulary

> > In other words, it used precious little of the vocabulary

You mean the cliches or the superficial production techniques? Once a style of music has a vocabulary, you can be sure it will be fucked very soon (despite Simon Reynolds best efforts, this hasn't happened to drum'n'bass..) Electronic music has no vocabulary, and I'm sure you'll be angry when I say that Jimi Tenor is just the same as the Aphex Twin, who is just the same as Miles Davis who is just the same as Ennio Morricone - good music, and that's all people should be concerning themselves with, not this societal little clique small-mindedness about music where everyone plays by the media rules. To say we can only discuss music that falls within certain boundaries, leaving the rest outside forever, only whispered quietly in passing, is, to me, a load of crap, and you're kidding yourself if you think you can get away with it. Infact I'm surprised Jimi Tenor has been singled out, as it is a lot closer to that imaginary idm blueprint than a lot of the music commonly accepted on the list.

quoted 1 line and it doesn't expand it in any meaningful way.

> >and it doesn't expand it in any meaningful way.

Of course it does. It is far more important than the rent-a-phex garbage which constitutes 90% of the records that get discussed on here.

quoted 2 lines Since no one has agreed with me yet,

> > Since no one has agreed with me yet, > > apparently everyone feels differently about this than I do

I hope so.

quoted 4 lines but so far

<holding head in hands> Maybe we should start up the 'objective' list, where everybody likes and hates the same things. According to you this should be quite easy.

quoted 1 line and (b) it's "electronic" (as Spice Girls are). I personally think it

> > and (b) it's "electronic" (as Spice Girls are). I personally think it

takes more than that. Well, maybe we should start awarding certificates classifying 'true 100% idm' to new releases, only awarded to the lowest form of ripoff technocrap with no ideas of its own.

quoted 3 lines i totally agree with you adam. compare something like funki porcini,

> i totally agree with you adam. compare something like funki porcini, > which on the surface may not seem particularly idmish (there's > precious few synth sounds in there at all)

<laugh>

quoted 4 lines with jimi. FP twist

> with jimi. FP twist > sounds, concoct new worlds, and basically present a very mutated view > of traditional jazz sounds - something that wouldn't be possible > without cutting-edge software like Hyperprism and modern samplers.

This is my personal view (oh dear, breaking the rules of the objective idm list), but just listen to the end product - badly produced, spacially flat, with no spark, emotion fun or humour at all, a Funki Porcini record has never surprised me at all, I knew what they would sound like before I ever heard them, they are completely predictable, now they are people who will never expand the music..

quoted 2 lines now listen to JT - you could pretty much do all of that stuff with

> now listen to JT - you could pretty much do all of that stuff with > "regular" instruments.

Oh, in that case, burn Jimi Tenor, the luddite! You could reconstruct Ambient Works 2 with regular instruments no problem. What is the point you're making? That we can only talk about 'unnatural' music here? That's stupid, interesting music (or more specifically, interesting electronic music) should be worthy of our attention if it's a microscopically sequenced scientific masterpiece or a simple yet soulful looped breakbeat with a live synth solo on it - yes you guessed it, I'm talking about Carl Craig's 'Desire'.

quoted 1 line that, to me, is the crucial distinction.

> that, to me, is the crucial distinction.

There's no distinction to make. Let's forget about that abstract idm definition for a moment and just consider some of our favourite records from Rephlex, Warp, Clear, whoever. Now, what makes them different from something like Herbie Hancock, or Brian Eno? Come on, really different? It really does my head in that people can walk around in some kind of trance, that they are able to listen to a Jimi Tenor LP and think 'lounge easy listening cheese', a Herbie Hancock record and say 'old 70s jazz fusion', or listen to a Photek EP and proclaim ' hi-tech cold filtered breaks' and completely miss the point of what the music is about. Why can't people accept a single piece of music as communicating a special and individual message? Who knows, we may be able to get over our stylistic barriers and start to think originally about the art of music.

quoted 2 lines (and it's why i worship the ninja tune guys, who may sometimes appear to

> (and it's why i worship the ninja tune guys, who may sometimes appear to > the untutored ear to be hopelessly retro.)

I like how you've used the words hopeless and retro together, as if something retro is hopeless and useless.. I also like the inference you make that something retro becomes 'modern' because it has been sampled and rearranged.. Superficial Production Techniques strike again.

quoted 1 line i say "LOUNGE OUT OF IDM!" and "JUST SAY NO TO LOUNGE."

> i say "LOUNGE OUT OF IDM!" and "JUST SAY NO TO LOUNGE."

Right, right. Yeah, you're cool. Let's carry on.

quoted 3 lines Erkki Rautio <trerra@uta.fi> wrote:

> > Erkki Rautio <trerra@uta.fi> wrote: > > > So if it isn't IDM, who cares > > Again, apparently, only me.

quoted 2 lines if it ain't IDM, why is it being discussed on the IDM list? surely it

> if it ain't IDM, why is it being discussed on the IDM list? surely it > would be more appropriate to the exotica list?

Well get off here then, this is the idm list, not the trip-hop list, no breaks in here guvnor, no jungle breaks. Cheerio! What's On The Sound Burger? Crossing The Tracks - Maceo And The Macks

1997-04-04 19:43Random JunkHumanerr0r@aol.com writes: > Why are you trying to make this out as a bad thing? Not every

From:: Random Junk <jsd@gamespot.com>
To:: <idm@hyperreal.com>
Date:: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 11:43:18 -0800 (PST)
Subject:: (idm) 100% idm
Reply to:: (idm) 100% idm,now that's what I call idm,the best idm album in the world ever

Humanerr0r@aol.com writes:

quoted 4 lines Why are you trying to make this out as a bad thing? Not everyone wants to

> Why are you trying to make this out as a bad thing? Not everyone wants to > sit in their studio with a white lab coat on and feel pressured to make up > some completely new sound that, to most people, would be completely alien, > and alienating.

er, but isn't that what techno, and idm in particular, is all about? or have i just been misled all this time.

quoted 3 lines well, each to his own, but I thought it was very imaginitive, inspiring even

> well, each to his own, but I thought it was very imaginitive, inspiring even > - if it makes people aware of something new and creative in themselves, or it > makes them laugh and cry, then Jimi *has* done the right thing.

no argument there, but why does it belong in IDM? i mean, i'm sure a lot people really dig the new pearl jam, might even make them laugh and cry, but we wouldn't talk about it here. [funki porcini]

quoted 2 lines but just listen to the end product - badly produced, spacially flat,

> but just listen to the end product - badly produced, spacially flat, > with no spark, emotion fun or humour at all

i think it's amazing that two people can hear the same thing in such different ways, but i guess that's what makes horse racing, isn't it.

quoted 3 lines a Funki Porcini record has never

> a Funki Porcini record has never > surprised me at all, I knew what they would sound like before I ever heard > them,

ah, you're psychic as well. i'll remember that.

quoted 2 lines they are completely predictable, now they are people who will never

> they are completely predictable, now they are people who will never > expand the music..

you're off your tree.

quoted 11 lines now listen to JT - you could pretty much do all of that stuff with

> > now listen to JT - you could pretty much do all of that stuff with > > "regular" instruments. > > Oh, in that case, burn Jimi Tenor, the luddite! You could reconstruct > Ambient Works 2 with regular instruments no problem. What is the point > you're making? That we can only talk about 'unnatural' music here? That's > stupid, interesting music (or more specifically, interesting electronic > music) should be worthy of our attention if it's a microscopically sequenced > scientific masterpiece or a simple yet soulful looped breakbeat with a live > synth solo on it - yes you guessed it, I'm talking about Carl Craig's > 'Desire'.

i honestly have no idea what you're getting at. like it or not, people expect to hear a certain type of music when you say "idm" at them. it's like saying bruce springsteen is techno because it's good and it moves you and you think it's more creative than aphex twin. which makes about as much sense to me as saying jimi tenor is idm because it's good. i don't agree with either statement. i see idm (and other net lists) as akin to newspapers or magazines. you don't pick up the wall street journal to read movie reviews. you don't buy macweek if you want to hear about windows software.

quoted 4 lines There's no distinction to make. Let's forget about that abstract idm

> There's no distinction to make. Let's forget about that abstract idm > definition for a moment and just consider some of our favourite records from > Rephlex, Warp, Clear, whoever. Now, what makes them different from something > like Herbie Hancock, or Brian Eno? Come on, really different?

uh, predominant use of technology in a certain way? interest in creative use of rhythm? i mean, herbie has his straight out jazz albums which i don't think are idm at all, and he has "future shock" which i think is a total idm classic. is this distinction really so offensive to you? i don't want to come off as some kind of net.cop, i mean, go ahead and talk about jimi tenor til you're sick, but i just don't see him as idm material and if my opinion means something to someone else who will thus avoid it, i will feel like i've lived a life with meaning and purpose. ---jsd "Sanity is a one trick pony...you only get one trick: rational thinking... but when you're good and crazy,the sky's the limit!!" - The Tick.

1997-04-04 22:32Adam J WeitzmanHumanerr0r@aol.com wrote: > > > My Tenor assertion was based on the idea that _Intervision

From:: Adam J Weitzman <weitzman@individual.com>
To:: IDM Mailing List <idm@hyperreal.com>
Date:: Fri, 04 Apr 1997 17:32:05 -0500
Subject:: Re: (idm) 100% idm,now that's what I call idm,the best idm album in the world ever

Humanerr0r@aol.com wrote:

quoted 6 lines My Tenor assertion was based on the idea that _Intervision_ is not

> > > My Tenor assertion was based on the idea that _Intervision_ is not > > evolutionary, rather it was retreading old ground, and not in a > > particularly imaginative way. > > Why are you trying to make this out as a bad thing?

I never said it was a bad thing, I said it wasn't an IDM thing. Talk about missing the point!

quoted 3 lines Smoker's Delight wasn't at all cutting edge, but I and (I hope)

> Smoker's Delight wasn't at all cutting edge, but I and (I hope) > many people consider that to be one of their most enduring and worthwhile > releases, simply because it is great music that makes you feel *good*.

That may be, but I can't remember the last time anyone mentioned Nightmares On Wax here. The point of my post was *not* that I don't like Jimi Tenor (though that happens to be true, at least what I've heard so far). It was that I couldn't figure out why so many people on the IDM list thought it was relevant, because I could find very little in it to recommend it to people who are into the music that is regularly discussed on the list.

quoted 3 lines In other words, it used precious little of the vocabulary

> > In other words, it used precious little of the vocabulary > > You mean the cliches or the superficial production techniques?

No, I mean more abstract things like "feel," "style" and "attitude," not "this kind of machine" or "that kind of noise" (or even "on that label"). _Intervision_ doesn't "feel" like an IDM release, no matter what it's made of.

quoted 5 lines Electronic music has no vocabulary, and I'm sure you'll be angry when I say

> Electronic music has no vocabulary, and I'm sure you'll be angry when I say > that Jimi Tenor is just the same as the Aphex Twin, who is just the same as > Miles Davis who is just the same as Ennio Morricone - good music, and that's > all people should be concerning themselves with, not this societal little > clique small-mindedness about music where everyone plays by the media rules.

I'm never angry (except when someone tells me "your opinion is invalid;" that always gets me good and riled-up :-). I concern myself with plenty of good music, but I don't discuss it all in front of IDM unless I think that you all might enjoy it. As much as I like the new Prince triple CD or the latest Offspring release, they don't use enough of the "vocabulary" of IDM to make them relevant here, so I didn't review them here. If I bought _Intervision_ and liked it as much as those releases, I *still* wouldn't bring it up here. The thing that bothers me most is that you seem to think there's a universal meaning to the phrase "good music," and I dispute that, because in my mind, Aphex Twin is good music and Jimi Tenor is not. That doesn't make me small-minded, it just means my taste differs from yours. Besides, this is not the "good music" list, it's the IDM list. Loads of stuff discussed here does not fit my taste, which is to be expected, but at least I can see why they're here. I can't see why Jimi Tenor is here. My point about vocabulary means that when I go to the Atlas section of the bookstore, I don't expect to find "Microserfs." You might be able to make the argument that it's a good book, but it still doesn't have the "feel" of what I expect in the Atlas section. I'll look at it and think, "That doesn't really belong here." Same with Jimi Tenor.

quoted 4 lines To say we can only discuss music that falls within certain boundaries,

> To say we can only discuss music that falls within certain boundaries, > leaving the rest outside forever, only whispered quietly in passing, is, to > me, a load of crap, and you're kidding yourself if you think you can get away > with it.

Just because the boundaries are constantly moving doesn't mean they're not there. The list doesn't discuss the latest Offspring album because that's not what the list is about. When _Exit_Planet_Dust_ came out, it was IDM, but nowadays a lot of people don't seem to think it is. This is proof that over time, the boundaries become different, but the subject is the same. I'm not suggesting that you shouldn't discuss whatever you want, but that means that I reserve the right to point out that _Intervisions_ has very little going for it with regards to the current meaning of IDM, whatever it is. I don't see how, even in the forseeable future, the meaning of IDM will expand to include stuff like _Intervisions_ because of reasons I've already pointed out. Why have a list called IDM if you're just going to discuss everything under the sun?

quoted 9 lines but so far

> > but so far > > the only arguments I've heard in favor of Tenor's IDM-ness is that (a) > > it's "good" (which really can't be the basis for any list because it's > > way too subjective to be useful) > > <holding head in hands> > > Maybe we should start up the 'objective' list, where everybody likes and > hates the same things. According to you this should be quite easy.

?!?!?! An "objective" list would be the exact opposite of what you wrote. When I see "idm" in the header, I want to have some idea of what will be in the contents; otherwise it's a totally useless distinction. That emphatically doesn't mean that I want everything to adhere to a strict set of criteria; there has to be room for the "vocabulary" to evolve and mutate. My ears are wide open to a ridiculous amount of musical ideas, and I'm all for a widely-inclusive definition of IDM, but I still can't for the life of me figure out why _Intervisions_ is part of it, or how it will become so in the future. Is that short-sighted? Maybe, but no one has produced a compelling enough argument to help me get over it. -- Adam J Weitzman Individual, Inc. "Are we here?" weitzman@individual.com - Orbital http://www.individual.com

(idm) 100% idm,now that's what I call idm,the best idm album in the world ever