IDM Mailing Archive

quoted 5 lines This list has degraded to a new low.

> This list has degraded to a new low. > > I think Alan and others decribed idm and the purpose of this list > very well on "What is the IDM Mailing List?". I suggest a few > people go take a look at it and get a clue.

PLEASE READ THE ENTIRE MESSAGE BEFORE RESPONDING OR I WILL NOT EVEN TAKE YOU SERIOUSLY. ok. ill explain again. I think u2 deserves to be on idm I've read the damn idminfo thing. it doesn't say much that differs from my view if I said aphex twin or autechre were crap, and that they weren't idm then you would be rather mad I assume. but, that's my opinion. it does have a right to be heard. I don't have the right to say you are an idiot though if a person likes a band then they obviously will think that they deserve to be told about. if the band somehow fits into the perimeters of "idm" then they will think that they deserve to be told about on idm. I like u2 so I think they, being a techno dance band in their current incarnation, deserve to be told about on idm. several people don't think that u2 is idm I would attribute this to either a lack of knowledge, preconceived notions, bad taste, or maybe they just plain don't like them. if they don't like them, then say so, but don't say someone who does is an idiot or obviously doesn't get the point of idm idm isn't philosophical idm is about idm my tastes may expand upon what is generally accepted as idm, but that doesn't bother me, and it shouldn't bother other people, unless they are neurotic, superior imbeciles. I am not saying you are a neurotic superior imbecile I am saying that you, among other people don't seem to understand, and obviously haven't even tried. not knowing you, I am not quite ready to tell several hundred people that you are an idiot. it was quite rude to post this over the internet, with the title "you are an idiot..." even if it wasn't you, whoever did it should be ashamed, for they are seem very immature. NO ONE TAKE ANY OF THIS PERSONALLY DON'T WRITE BACK UNLESS YOU INTEND TO TELL ME SOMETHING USEFUL, NOT THAT I AM AN IDIOT. THANK YOU, I'VE HAD ENOUGH OF THAT. MY TASTES DIFFER. MY VIEWS OF WHAT IS IDM MAY DIFFER. IDM IS A LOOSE TERM. IT SAYS SO IN THE INFO THINGY, IT ALSO SAYS THAT I HAVE A RIGHT TO POST SUCH MATERIAL, IF I CAN BACK UP MY CLAIMS. I CAN. WRITE BACK IN PRIVATE. I LIKE APHEX AND AUTECHRE. BUT, I THINK AMBIENT AND TECHNO MUSIC HAVE NOT LIVED UP TO THE PROMISE THAT THEIR INFLUENCES SET. (ENO AND CAN AND KRAFTWERK AND EVEN PINK FLOYD.) THANK YOU FOR YOUR TIME. steichen@ols.com

In message <199703082239.RAA02299@server1.ols.net>, "susie creamcheese (the voice of cheese)" <steichen@ols.net> writes

quoted 10 lines This list has degraded to a new low.

>> This list has degraded to a new low. >> >> I think Alan and others decribed idm and the purpose of this list >> very well on "What is the IDM Mailing List?". I suggest a few >> people go take a look at it and get a clue. >PLEASE READ THE ENTIRE MESSAGE BEFORE RESPONDING OR I WILL NOT EVEN TAKE >YOU SERIOUSLY. >ok. >ill explain again. >I think u2 deserves to be on idm

Look mate, you're welcome to say u2 deserves to be on idm, but you're very likely to find a great number of people not interested in talking about u2, i'm afraid. Talk all you want, but very few are going to join in, other than to argue whether they are or aren't idm. There must be a u2 fan list somewhere i'm sure, join that, you'll ultimately feel better, and more at home. -- Ben Coffer Hybrid Productions http://www.hybridgame.demon.co.uk/

On Sun, 9 Mar 1997, Ben Coffer wrote:

quoted 8 lines Look mate, you're welcome to say u2 deserves to be on idm, but you're

> > Look mate, you're welcome to say u2 deserves to be on idm, but you're > very likely to find a great number of people not interested in talking > about u2, i'm afraid. Talk all you want, but very few are going to > join in, other than to argue whether they are or aren't idm. There must > be a u2 fan list somewhere i'm sure, join that, you'll ultimately > feel better, and more at home. >

While all will agree that this point has probably been beat to death, I'd like to post my response to all this nonsense. Although it is true that most of "us" on this list do not believe U2 to be idm, whether we do or not isn't the point of the list. Instead, as mentioned by others before me in much more eloquent ways, the point is to have intelligent discussions on the music we all love. Who cares if U2 simply sound like their producer? Despite the fact that many high-browed recipients of this list believe that U2's albums are simply the workings of creative producers, at least some of the music (and much more likely most) is theirs. So what if they borrow from the innovators? There has not been a single album in the past few years that cannot claim influence from some previous artist, and this, as much as we may deny it, includes all the beloved artists "we" hold dear. Part of what attracts me to this list is the diversity of opinion. Some hold that anything with guitar is not idm, some hold that vocals disqualify it, and others say anything goes. To me, whatever music stirs my soul is idm. Many of the albums recipients of this list acclaim as breathtaking and soul-moving I find cold and unfeeling. The same works for albums I love and which others do not. To me, any song in the hands of a creative musician is idm, as long as the tune connects with me. The artist may not give a damn about the song and only want royalties, but I don't care. Who here has not thought that Aphex is sometimes just having a laugh with his fans? This doesn't disqualify him as idm ... just as blatant commercialism should not either. This is an unfortunate fact which should make most of us uncomfortable. But anyway you take it, beautiful music can come from the most questionable origins. This letter rambled horribly - probably without a point. Pardon me if you felt your time wasted on it. But if you don't agree with its content, try real hard next time you buy any album to understand its creator's intentions. I guarantee it is impossible. We don't know them because we don't make the music. We only interpret it. And it interprets for each of us in different ways. Oh well, sorry for repeating what has already been written many different times and ways. J

On 10-Mar-97, Deng scribbled something about Re: (idm) you are an idiot and you don't get the point of idm:

quoted 7 lines tune connects with me. The artist may not give a damn about the song and

>tune connects with me. The artist may not give a damn about the song and >only want royalties, but I don't care. Who here has not thought that >Aphex is sometimes just having a laugh with his fans? This doesn't >disqualify him as idm ... just as blatant commercialism should not >either. This is an unfortunate fact which should make most of us >uncomfortable. But anyway you take it, beautiful music can come from the >most questionable origins.

AFX doesn't care about what happens to any of his songs after he releases them, or so he said in an interview. -- __ __\ \ Aurafix aka Hillie / PHD ^ DAMONES / /_\ \ http://www.clark.net/pub/buh/index.html \_____/ >> buh@clark.net >> < > .. >> .<>> >> > , m7= Do re mi fa so la ti .. Oh let's see if we can make it easier..

On 11-Mar-97, The Rare Guy wrote:

quoted 2 lines AFX doesn't care about what happens to any of his songs after he releases

>AFX doesn't care about what happens to any of his songs after he releases >them, or so he said in an interview.

I quote someone on this list who said this to me earlier: "he's lying". -- .Mikko

"susie creamcheese \(the voice of cheese\)" <steichen@ols.net> writes:

quoted 4 lines if I said aphex twin or autechre were crap, and that they weren't idm then

> if I said aphex twin or autechre were crap, and that they weren't idm then > you would be rather mad I assume. > but, that's my opinion. > it does have a right to be heard.

You have a right to say whatever you want. That doesn't stop it from being a really, really, really moronic thing to say.

quoted 1 line I don't have the right to say you are an idiot though

> I don't have the right to say you are an idiot though

Moron. -- (domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.) larsi@ifi.uio.no * Lars Ingebrigtsen

A collage of quotations:

quoted 2 lines This list has degraded to a new low.

> This list has degraded to a new low. > http://www.hyperreal.com/music/lists/idm/idminfo.html

"So as to prevent the list from becoming a hopeless barrage of flame mail over what is and is not "intelligent", the official stance will be that all opinions are to be respected - you are welcome to disagree and post your disagreements, but outright flames and name-calling are to be avoided. However, if you declare that "Rozalla is intelligent dance music", you should be willing and able to back it up - not just "because it obviously is." Just remember that your mail goes into approximately 750 mail boxes worldwide therefore unrelated or unneccessary posts should be kept to an absolute minimum."

quoted 4 lines You have a right to say whatever you want. That doesn't stop it from

> You have a right to say whatever you want. That doesn't stop it from > being a really, really, really moronic thing to say. > > Moron.

Could we all grow up a little, please, and maybe play nice? Since when have a Select Few been the arbiters of Good Taste and musical classification? I thought this list was about _breaking down_ barriers, not building them. I'd hate to see this list degenerate into a clique of narrow-minded, glib elitists...but I can see the first steps being taken down that path right now. There are no aesthetic absolutes. There should be no exceptions. I'm disgusted. "ALL OPINIONS ARE TO BE RESPECTED." How could this be any less clear? Warren -- Warren Lapham (ceremony-owner@monkey.org) laps@umich.edu (laps@monkey.org)

in msg. dated blah etc. somebody wrote:

quoted 6 lines I'd hate to see this list degenerate into a clique of

> I'd hate to see this list degenerate into a clique of > narrow-minded, glib elitists...but I can see the first steps being taken > down that path right now. There are no aesthetic absolutes. There should > be no exceptions. I'm disgusted. > > "ALL OPINIONS ARE TO BE RESPECTED."

'Narrow minded' - hmmm. In a world where one person is capable, given resources, of manufacturing an entire subculture around themselves (initial dedication of this list to RDJ would seem to be an example of this in concreto), it seems that 'narrow mindedness' would be the minimum expectation. And as for 'glib elitists' - masses manufacture their own elites. One might as well condemn innovation itself or cast aspersions on excellence in general, on the very basis of its offensive exceptionality. Whence-

quoted 2 lines There are no aesthetic absolutes. There should

> There are no aesthetic absolutes. There should > be no exceptions.

The very existence of anything called an 'aesthetic' constitutes the first instance of an 'aesthetic absolute.' No exceptions? How baldly totalitarian an Rx is this, anyway?

quoted 1 line "ALL OPINIONS ARE TO BE RESPECTED."

> "ALL OPINIONS ARE TO BE RESPECTED."

As soon as all opinions are respected, no opinions are respected. Now everybody just shut the fuck up about Bono lest posts about Sonny Bono (hey - that old Sonny & Cher album reminds me of the Gentle People!) start clogging the arteries of this list as well. signifier over signified signing off

quoted 4 lines 'Narrow minded' - hmmm. In a world where one person is capable, given

>'Narrow minded' - hmmm. In a world where one person is capable, given >resources, of manufacturing an entire subculture around themselves >(initial dedication of this list to RDJ would seem to be an example of >this in concreto)

I'll make this simple. The IDM list has never been dedicated exclusively, let alone primarily, to the Aphex Twin. Alan initially had planned to start an Aphex mailing list, but instead created a list with a much broader topic. The IDM list's topic of conversation has always been pretty much what it is now (although I'd say the conversation has gradually narrowed over the last year or so, possibly because more and more list members believe it once was an RDJ-only list). C. -- C.Hilker (cspot@hyperreal.com) "He was mesmerized by the light-pictures, and the music sent him right into dreamland"

On Sat, 8 Mar 1997, Chris.Hilker wrote:

quoted 6 lines let alone primarily, to the Aphex Twin. Alan initially had planned to

> let alone primarily, to the Aphex Twin. Alan initially had planned to > start an Aphex mailing list, but instead created a list with a much > broader topic. The IDM list's topic of conversation has always been > pretty much what it is now (although I'd say the conversation has > gradually narrowed over the last year or so, possibly because more and > more list members believe it once was an RDJ-only list).

argh.. 386's suxx :) hm.. I was under the impression from the 'welcome to IDM' msg and from the web-pages that this was a RDJ-only list in the beginning, but that obviously there was a lot more going on than just RDJ, so it evolved into what it is now. (scary, huh :D)

quoted 8 lines in msg. dated blah etc. somebody wrote:

> in msg. dated blah etc. somebody wrote: > > > There are no aesthetic absolutes. There should > > be no exceptions. > > The very existence of anything called an 'aesthetic' constitutes the > first instance of an 'aesthetic absolute.' No exceptions? How baldly > totalitarian an Rx is this, anyway?

There's no universally accepted standard of what is "in good taste" or "beautiful" and what is not. Not even outside of this list. We wouldn't be discussing this if there were. I hardly think I'm the one who's trying to be totalitarian. I'm not trying to stop a discussion that is perfectly legitimate according to the "mission statement" of this list...by calling people names, no less.

quoted 2 lines "ALL OPINIONS ARE TO BE RESPECTED."

> > "ALL OPINIONS ARE TO BE RESPECTED." > As soon as all opinions are respected, no opinions are respected.

Those words are part of the message that everyone receives upon subscription to the list. Don't you think they ought to affect how we discuss things on the list? -- Warren Lapham (ceremony-owner@monkey.org) laps@umich.edu (laps@monkey.org)

On Sat, 8 Mar 1997, objet petit a wrote:

quoted 2 lines "[Intelligent Dance Music] means the opposite of stupid hardcore. And of

> "[Intelligent Dance Music] means the opposite of stupid hardcore. And of > ***commercial dance music.***" (So much for Bono Vox.)

Well, how you you define "commercial"? Music that is sold? Music that is sold by major lables? Music that is sold in corporate-owned stores? Music that is used in commercials? RDJ loses on all counts. :) This _is_ getting to be rather silly, especially since I personally don't believe that U2 is idm. But I don't think that an individual's opinion should dictate what should be discussed on the list. If someone has got a good, unpopular argument, hoorah. That sort of bravery is what should make us think...you know..."intelligent" dance music. -- Warren Lapham (ceremony-owner@monkey.org) laps@umich.edu (laps@monkey.org)

somebody wrote:

quoted 1 line "[Intelligent Dance Music] means the opposite of stupid hardcore. And

> > "[Intelligent Dance Music] means the opposite of stupid hardcore. And

of

quoted 3 lines ***commercial dance music.***" (So much for Bono Vox.)

> > ***commercial dance music.***" (So much for Bono Vox.) > > Well, how you you define "commercial"? Music that is sold? Music that

is

quoted 2 lines sold by major lables? Music that is sold in corporate-owned stores?

> sold by major lables? Music that is sold in corporate-owned stores? > Music that is used in commercials? RDJ loses on all counts. :)

Commercial music is music that is either created to sell well, or that is made with simple chords (like C, F and G), easy rythms and everything that pleases the crowd. Good-selling music is not necessarily commercial but mostly it is. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ M a t h i a s V e r r a e s ET.Phone.Home@ThePentagon.com 'Le corbeau, honteux et confus, jura, mais un peu tard, qu'on ne l'y prendrait plus.' ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~