IDM Mailing Archive

1996-06-28 18:03Aran M. Parillo"Like lately what I've been doing is taking the highs from one turntable, the mid-range fr

From:: Aran M. Parillo <aran@MIT.EDU>
To:: <idm@hyperreal.com>
Date:: Fri, 28 Jun 1996 14:03:08 -0400
Subject:: (idm) the M is for Mills

"Like lately what I've been doing is taking the highs from one turntable, the mid-range from another and the bass from the third and then putting them together and it creates something completely different than all three of the records." J. Mills

1996-06-29 05:56Miles EganOn Fri, 28 Jun 1996, Aran M. Parillo wrote: > "Like lately what I've been doing is taking

From:: Miles Egan <cullen@rahul.net>
To:: IDM List <idm@hyperreal.com>
Date:: Fri, 28 Jun 1996 22:56:21 -0700 (PDT)
Subject:: Re: (idm) the M is for Mills
Reply to:: (idm) the M is for Mills

On Fri, 28 Jun 1996, Aran M. Parillo wrote:

quoted 4 lines "Like lately what I've been doing is taking the highs from one turntable,

> "Like lately what I've been doing is taking the highs from one turntable, > the mid-range from another and the bass from the third and then putting > them together and it creates something completely different than all three > of the records." J. Mills

It's amazing to me that someone who pays so much lip service to the ideals of innovation and invention can cut a mix as monotonous as the Liquid Room CD. Boom boom boom boom (repeat until unconscious). We've made machines to make these boring beats, why don't we make robots to dance to them? I certainly wouldn't care to. The sound is muddy, too.

1996-06-29 06:53Kent WilliamsOn Fri, 28 Jun 1996, Miles Egan wrote: > On Fri, 28 Jun 1996, Aran M. Parillo wrote: > > >

From:: Kent Williams <kent@inav.net>
To:: Miles Egan <cullen@rahul.net>
Cc:: IDM List <idm@hyperreal.com>
Date:: Sat, 29 Jun 1996 01:53:56 -0500 (CDT)
Subject:: Re: (idm) the M is for Mills
Reply to:: Re: (idm) the M is for Mills

On Fri, 28 Jun 1996, Miles Egan wrote:

quoted 13 lines On Fri, 28 Jun 1996, Aran M. Parillo wrote:

> On Fri, 28 Jun 1996, Aran M. Parillo wrote: > > > "Like lately what I've been doing is taking the highs from one turntable, > > the mid-range from another and the bass from the third and then putting > > them together and it creates something completely different than all three > > of the records." J. Mills > > It's amazing to me that someone who pays so much lip service to the > ideals of innovation and invention can cut a mix as monotonous as the > Liquid Room CD. Boom boom boom boom (repeat until unconscious). We've > made machines to make these boring beats, why don't we make robots to > dance to them? I certainly wouldn't care to. The sound is muddy, too. >

With any repetetive music, unless you know where to listen for the changes and fluctuations you'll miss them. I heard most of Liquid Room in the record store and my reaction was 'Fuck Yeah!" and I followed it the way you have to follow an extended Coltrane solo like 'Traning In.' I didn't hear monotony, I heard variety, but the variety is at the edges -- at the center is "BOOM BOOM BOOM BOOM" I ain't going to make you buy this and make it your religion, Miles. Feel free to hate it. I just think you may be missing something here. --------------------------------------------------------------------- "I read Keyboard, but it's like staring at a book with pictures of simple looking but expensive machines." -- Michael Lazarev NEW CD Comp Electronic Music Project http://soli.inav.net/~kent/emp.html Kent Williams kent@inav.net CADSI 2651 Crosspark Road Coralville IA 52241 (319) 338 6053 (home) (319) 626 6700 x 219 (work) (319) 626 3489 (fax)

1996-06-30 02:56Miles Egan> With any repetetive music, unless you know where to listen for the > changes and fluctua

From:: Miles Egan <cullen@rahul.net>
To:: IDM List <idm@hyperreal.com>
Date:: Sat, 29 Jun 1996 19:56:49 -0700 (PDT)
Subject:: Re: (idm) the M is for Mills
Reply to:: Re: (idm) the M is for Mills

quoted 6 lines With any repetetive music, unless you know where to listen for the

> With any repetetive music, unless you know where to listen for the > changes and fluctuations you'll miss them. I heard most of Liquid Room > in the record store and my reaction was 'Fuck Yeah!" and I followed it > the way you have to follow an extended Coltrane solo like 'Traning In.' > I didn't hear monotony, I heard variety, but the variety is at the edges -- > at the center is "BOOM BOOM BOOM BOOM"

What reason on earth is there for this monotonous pounding? One of the things that I like best about electronic music is that it allows sounds and rhythms impossible with acoustic instruments played hands-on. This is just lazy. It takes about 2 seconds to set up a kick drum loop like that and I'd no sooner spend an hour listening to it than I would a metronome. This is anti-human music. Part of the reason I enjoy a lot of the Rephlex stuff so much is that so much personality and humor shines through all the rough edges of those disks. I'm sure I could come up with a simple computer algorithm that could churn out disks at interesting as the Liquid room mix all day long. I'm not a big fan of jungle in general but junglists deserve a lot of credit for opening up the rhythmic structure of this music. My problem with a lot of jungle is that it's not structured *enough* to hold my attention. This is a fine line to walk. It's hard for me not to see the entire history of 4-floor dance music as a crude pre-history of 21st century electronic music. Nobody is going to listen to those thumping house records 15 years from now. I don't even like to dance to this stuff and I'll *never* throw it on at home. There's a world of difference between using repetetion effectively and with restraint and just letting the sequencer loop endlessly. It's interesting to compare this to the Herbert disk, for example. Herbert sticks to our favorite house rhythm formula pretty closely, but weaves enough secondary rhythmic elements around it and mixes it low enough that it's possible to give his tracks some color and direction. I'm sure I'd like it better if he broke the beats up a bit, but there is at least something of his mind and soul there.

quoted 2 lines I ain't going to make you buy this and make it your religion, Miles.

> I ain't going to make you buy this and make it your religion, Miles. > Feel free to hate it. I just think you may be missing something here.

It's too late. I bought it already. I imagine that there is some interesting tweaking going on beneath all that idiotic pounding, but there are far too many musicians making music that is innovative and expressive at all levels for me to ever bother with something this compromised. This has certainly been churned through before, but I think it's intersting to note how little of the music discussed on the IDM list really is dance music.

1996-06-30 05:06James B GillOn Sat, 29 Jun 1996, Miles Egan wrote: This > is just lazy. It takes about 2 seconds to se

From:: James B Gill <jgill@U.Arizona.EDU>
To:: Miles Egan <cullen@rahul.net>
Cc:: IDM List <idm@hyperreal.com>
Date:: Sat, 29 Jun 1996 22:06:15 -0700 (MST)
Subject:: Re: (idm) the M is for Mills
Reply to:: Re: (idm) the M is for Mills

On Sat, 29 Jun 1996, Miles Egan wrote: This

quoted 3 lines is just lazy. It takes about 2 seconds to set up a kick drum loop like

> is just lazy. It takes about 2 seconds to set up a kick drum loop like > that and I'd no sooner spend an hour listening to it than I would a > metronome. This is anti-human music.

I loved this last part; "anti-human music." Brilliant. A new genre - something like mills (hard techno) and cylob's industrial folk songs. My favourite. Brilliant thought miles, even if it had an adverse effect. About "Anti-human music;" If I'm unfamiliar with a new employee at a good record store, I'll ask them if they have anything that sounds totally foreign, made in space, possesed by aliens, et.al. Now i can ask for some "Anti-human music."

quoted 4 lines I'm sure I could come up

> I'm sure I could come up > with a simple computer algorithm that could churn out disks at > interesting as the Liquid room mix all day long. >

You see, you didn't pay attention to my last response. It's impossible for any dj (if there are any better than mills, I don't know) to produce a mix better than this on cd. It's LIVE; no re-editing in the studio, no mix and if you fuck up, you re-do it; it's fucking live! If you went to the liquid room that night, that's what you'd see, along with punters massive stompin' it out all night long. A single "computer algorithm" can't churn out the heart/soul of this dj who spins the best in "Anti-Human Music."(makes sense, eh)

quoted 4 lines This has certainly been churned through before, but I think it's

> This has certainly been churned through before, but I think it's > intersting to note how little of the music discussed on the IDM list > really is dance music. >

what? Aren't we discussing dance music right now? Even if you don't like Mills, his sets are definitely dance music; that you cannot dispute. People dance to this "idiotic pounding", because it's moving, hard, and lovely "anti human music". James Benjamin Gill-----jgill@u.arizona.edu**********************************

1996-06-30 06:56Miles EganOn Sat, 29 Jun 1996, James B Gill wrote: > I loved this last part; "anti-human music." Bri

From:: Miles Egan <cullen@rahul.net>
To:: IDM List <idm@hyperreal.com>
Date:: Sat, 29 Jun 1996 23:56:19 -0700 (PDT)
Subject:: Re: (idm) the M is for Mills
Reply to:: Re: (idm) the M is for Mills

On Sat, 29 Jun 1996, James B Gill wrote:

quoted 2 lines I loved this last part; "anti-human music." Brilliant. A new genre -

> I loved this last part; "anti-human music." Brilliant. A new genre - > something like mills (hard techno) and cylob's industrial folk songs.

It's hardly a new genre. Go directly to Merzbow and follow the thread back from there. You can hop over to grindcore if you'd like something a bit more rhythmic.

quoted 12 lines I'm sure I could come up

> > I'm sure I could come up > > with a simple computer algorithm that could churn out disks at > > interesting as the Liquid room mix all day long. > > > You see, you didn't pay attention to my last response. It's impossible > for any dj (if there are any better than mills, I don't know) to produce > a mix better than this on cd. It's LIVE; no re-editing in the studio, no > mix and if you fuck up, you re-do it; it's fucking live! If you went to > the liquid room that night, that's what you'd see, along with punters > massive stompin' it out all night long. A single "computer algorithm" > can't churn out the heart/soul of this dj who spins the best in > "Anti-Human Music."(makes sense, eh)

I'm sure it would be extremely difficult to program a computer to mix records like this. It wouldn't be hard at all to teach one to beat an 808 like that and drop abstract analogue farts and squiggles. The product is the same. Buildups and tempo would just be entries in the parameter file. You could toss a few fractal kinks in the program too keep if from sounding too linear.

quoted 4 lines what? Aren't we discussing dance music right now? Even if you don't

> what? Aren't we discussing dance music right now? Even if you don't > like Mills, his sets are definitely dance music; that you cannot > dispute. People dance to this "idiotic pounding", because it's moving, > hard, and lovely "anti human music".

Amazingly enough, Mills' stuff is considered dance music by those challenged enough to enjoy twitching spastically to a bored drum machine for hours. It doesn't surprise me to learn that Mills grew up making industrial music. Most of the people floating on that boat much past the early 80's should have sunk with it. It's pretty hard to imagine anyone dancing to Spanners or Tri Repetae.

1996-06-30 07:38Matthew J. LehrerOn Sat, 29 Jun 1996, Miles Egan wrote: > It's pretty hard to imagine anyone dancing to Spa

From:: Matthew J. Lehrer <mjl1461@is3.NYU.EDU>
To:: Miles Egan <cullen@rahul.net>
Cc:: IDM List <idm@hyperreal.com>
Date:: Sun, 30 Jun 1996 03:38:47 -0400 (EDT)
Subject:: Re: (idm) the M is for Mills
Reply to:: Re: (idm) the M is for Mills

On Sat, 29 Jun 1996, Miles Egan wrote:

quoted 1 line It's pretty hard to imagine anyone dancing to Spanners or Tri Repetae.

> It's pretty hard to imagine anyone dancing to Spanners or Tri Repetae.

Ah...but wouldn't it be grand, though? :) A packed dancefloor gyrating to "Psil-Cosyin" - now *that* would be something to see. Hopefully, it's not as farfetched a concept as it may sound like.... - Matthew JustOn-->Drexciya: Sighting In The Abyss

1996-06-29 10:54William L SamuelsOn Fri, 28 Jun 1996, Miles Egan wrote: > On Fri, 28 Jun 1996, Aran M. Parillo wrote: > > I

From:: William L Samuels <wls@U.Arizona.EDU>
To:: Miles Egan <cullen@rahul.net>
Cc:: IDM List <idm@hyperreal.com>
Date:: Sat, 29 Jun 1996 03:54:16 -0700 (MST)
Subject:: Re: (idm) the M is for Mills
Reply to:: Re: (idm) the M is for Mills

On Fri, 28 Jun 1996, Miles Egan wrote:

quoted 8 lines On Fri, 28 Jun 1996, Aran M. Parillo wrote:

> On Fri, 28 Jun 1996, Aran M. Parillo wrote: > > It's amazing to me that someone who pays so much lip service to the > ideals of innovation and invention can cut a mix as monotonous as the > Liquid Room CD. Boom boom boom boom (repeat until unconscious). We've > made machines to make these boring beats, why don't we make robots to > dance to them? I certainly wouldn't care to. The sound is muddy, too. >

We'll I think that the rawness of the recording speaks for itself. For example DJ KICKS - CJ BOLLAND has a great mix of techno, the mixes were obviously done in a studio. Thats great and all that. The Jeff Mills is live it has the volume change and it is not perfect. It feels more real, and I respect that it captures the true feeling of being there. I thought that it was cool that it was released just as it, instaed of trying to cosmetically improve it. I have never heard him spin (in person), but I look forward to hearing him someday. I heard that Dave Clarke is similar in his DJ technique, I can't wait to hear him also. B i l l S a m u e l s w l s @ U . A r i z o n a . E D U *****************************************************************************

1996-06-29 11:22James B GillOn Fri, 28 Jun 1996, Miles Egan wrote: > On Fri, 28 Jun 1996, Aran M. Parillo wrote: > > >

From:: James B Gill <jgill@U.Arizona.EDU>
To:: Miles Egan <cullen@rahul.net>
Cc:: IDM List <idm@hyperreal.com>
Date:: Sat, 29 Jun 1996 04:22:32 -0700 (MST)
Subject:: Re: (idm) the M is for Mills
Reply to:: Re: (idm) the M is for Mills

On Fri, 28 Jun 1996, Miles Egan wrote:

quoted 14 lines On Fri, 28 Jun 1996, Aran M. Parillo wrote:

I absolutely love this cd. Jeff Mills's techno is a state of the art, in the mix, risk taking, no bullshit set. I completely respect this guy for releasing a _real_ live cd, instead of some mix that was made in the studio(like so many of the mix cd's are). This cd is brilliant, and i'm glad a dj as good as mills has the guts to record it live and release it with all the energy intact. James Benjamin Gill-----jgill@u.arizona.edu**********************************

1996-07-01 13:03GEOTRAXMiles, ME>> I loved this last part; "anti-human music." Brilliant. A new genre - ME>> some

From:: GEOTRAX <geotrax@jukjoint.warp.co.uk>
To:: <idm@hyperreal.com>
Date:: Mon, 01 Jul 96 13:03:00 -0000
Subject:: Re: (idm) the M is for M

Miles, ME>> I loved this last part; "anti-human music." Brilliant. A new genre - ME>> something like mills (hard techno) and cylob's industrial folk songs. ME>It's hardly a new genre. Go directly to Merzbow and follow the thread ME>back from there. You can hop over to grindcore if you'd like something a ME>bit more rhythmic. There's a difference, and it's something a lot of people will never notice. ME>> > I'm sure I could come up ME>> > with a simple computer algorithm that could churn out disks at ME>> > interesting as the Liquid room mix all day long. And some time soon they'll make programs you can have a human-like conversation with. Of course, then people won't bother talking to each other. Where is the limit of 'acceptability' and 'taste' as regards to computer/electronic assistance in music? Does it stop at algorithmic composition, computer sound generation, computer sequencing, synthesisers, or somewhere inbetween? Your idea of music having to have a human element is just an extension of that old argument that music is only real when it's played live. It's the same thing. Whether you find a piece of music good shouldn't depend on who or what made it - it should depend on whether you like it, whether it catches your ear. I should imagine that a lot of techno and idm musicians have tracks inspired by, or containing elements of, random spewings of samplers or sequencers on loop. So much is based on chance nowadays that the idea of consuming art produced by computer can't be ignored. ME>I'm sure it would be extremely difficult to program a computer to mix ME>records like this. It wouldn't be hard at all to teach one to beat an ME>808 like that and drop abstract analogue farts and squiggles. How can you be a part of this group when you obviously show such contempt for electronic music? 'Analogue farts and squggles' is another of those Bon Jovi cheesehead phrases that I see far too often, alongside messages lumping Cylob with grindcore because it has crashes, clangs and distortion in it.. ME>Amazingly enough, Mills' stuff is considered dance music by those ME>challenged enough to enjoy twitching spastically to a bored drum machine ME>for hours. And this is just plain nastiness. So you don't like Mills. What's the point in telling everybody, unless you have a good argument to back it up? Cheers, SjaY. *Fido* 2:250/151 *E-Mail* Geotrax@jukjoint.warp.co.uk ... 'AB4.2' - AFX ___ * UniQWK v4.1 * The Windows Mail Reader

Re: (idm) the M is for M