IDM Mailing Archive

quoted 9 lines I'm sorry friends, maybe this record will grow on me,

>> I'm sorry friends, maybe this record will grow on me, >> but at the moment I'm feeling very disapointed in the brothers >> Hartnoll. The new organic 'live' sound they've adopted just >>dosen't suit their music. > > >I haven't got my hands on the Box yet ( my record shop guy informs >me it'll be in tomorrow ), so I can't comment here. >

Wait till you hear it and you'll be just as disapointed I'm sure. It's utterly self indulgent crap, easily the worst thing they've ever done. I listened to Snivelisation a bunch of times when it first came out trying to get a handle on it and hoping I would end up liking it more than Orbital 2 but that never happened, the album is simply too uneven. It starts out nice, then by the middle its gone astray and when they try to make ammends by the last song its too late. In my opinion Orbital still hasn't topped Halcyon. And yes, I have everything they've ever done. Oh well... /""'' /"'RESH Live and Direct from the G-Spot Orange County, California, USA

Must _everyone_ dump on Orbital? I've been a devout fan since I bought the green album five years ago. i've always enjoyed the fact that orbital can pick up on whatever dance music gimmick or convention is popular at the time and improve upon it. this is *especially* evident with _Snivilization_. 1994 was a time when the term 'jungle' and all the conventions along with it began to pick up steam. [i even recall reading an article about jungle in a 1994 issue of details, for crissakes!] the two tracks off of _snivilization_ that could be considered 'jungle' [sad but true + are we here?] were, at the time, incredibly fresh and different. i can't remember hearing a jungle track prior to _snivilization_ that didn't rely on the same stock of breakbeats, reggae samples, etc. had _snivilization_ not been released, i seriously believe that the genre we dearly call drum'n'bass would be drastically different. i don't understand this trend of pissing on artists who don't hold on to the same sound. case in point, orbvs terrarvm. i love _uforb_; it is so spacy and dubby and sexy. i also love _orbvs terrarvm_, because it is so earthy and crunchy and sexy. it's much easier to contrast the two albums than find common points. should i hose down my _orbvs terrarvm_ cd with wd40 and set it on fire because it doesn't sound like _uforb_? no. i should be happy that my favorite artist is progressing musically. and i should be happy that the orb is still putting out records period. my collection would be pretty bleak without the orb. i like to take an artist's releases as a product of it's time as well as a product of the artist. i will probably be searching the import bins at local record stores for _the box_. and i will probably find it one day. and it will be more than likely that i will listen to it. and i will probably think it is the freshest thing i've heard this year, because that's what i expect from p+p. .grant.h.horne .http://delta.is.tcu.edu/~ghhorne/ .leterel.autechre

On Tue, 16 Apr 1996, dj k lmnop wrote:

quoted 2 lines Must _everyone_ dump on Orbital?

> Must _everyone_ dump on Orbital? >

I don't think _everyone_ is. Anyway I like hearing positive _and_ negative opinions about things. I just don't like hearing really subjective comments like something "is crap" or similar comments. That says nothing to me. Someone's crap is another person's treasure. If people don't like something don't be afraid to say so, but at the same time try not to use such loaded and subjective terms. Have to chime in and say that my listening enjoyment for both Orbital and the Orb releases has consistently and steadily decreased. I didn't really like Orb's Orbvus (at least compared to their earlier material) and only enjoyed half of Snivilisation. I'm one of the few who actually likes Orbital I (The US version) more than Orbital II as well. Although II _is_ great. What I'm hearing about the new Orbital doesn't sound too promising. I'll check it out though... T.

On Tue, 16 Apr 1996, Julius anthony Martinez wrote:

quoted 3 lines I don't think _everyone_ is. Anyway I like hearing positive _and_

> I don't think _everyone_ is. Anyway I like hearing positive _and_ > negative opinions about things. I just don't like hearing really > subjective comments like something "is crap" or similar comments. That

Well, the thing about people giving their opinions on something is that inevitably, these opinions will be subjective. Being subjective doesn't necessarily mean saying "I love this" or "I can't stand this". Anyone giving their personal opinion on something is drawing upon their own feelings towards it to shape their explanation of what they like or don't like about it. I have been guilty of just simply stating I love Snivilisation though, and a lot of the time, it's just that simple for me. If I think about it, I can come up with some of the things I like about the album. Something I find really attractive about Sniv is what I call its fusion of emotion and technology. The emotion is most apparent in Forever, Attached, and Sad But True, and also finds its way into Kein Trink Wasser, and the third "movement" of Are We Here? (and other tracks to a lesser degree) Where the emotion is lacking provides a nice contrast, serving to highlight this emotion beautifully. Some of Sniv's tracks certainly don't hold up well on their own, but as part of the whole, I find them to work perfectly, each adding to the whole in its own way, either by providing a lot of build-up, as in Philosophy By Numbers, or rending us suddenly from this whole in Quality Seconds, before the calm of the beginning of Are We Here? Standing alone, I would not consider either of these songs good, but to me, they work perfectly within the structure of the album. It's this "interaction" between tracks, and the entire album structure, partly, that lets me appreciate this album, and I've never really been able to appreciate anything else to the same degree. These are by no means the only reasons for me liking it, they are simply what I can think of and define easily.... Yes, this is a highly subjective opinion, possibly even badly-explained, and I don't expect many people (if any at all) to share this view of the album with me, and I do expect other people to be able to come up with radically opposing views on the album. This is what I think is being subjective without just saying whether or not you like something. Is it useful to anyone but myself? I don't really know, but I would think it is at least a better read than a simple "I love snivilisation" post.

quoted 7 lines Have to chime in and say that my listening enjoyment for both Orbital

> Have to chime in and say that my listening enjoyment for both Orbital > and the Orb releases has consistently and steadily decreased. I didn't > really like Orb's Orbvus (at least compared to their earlier material) > and only enjoyed half of Snivilisation. I'm one of the few who actually > likes Orbital I (The US version) more than Orbital II as well. Although > II _is_ great. What I'm hearing about the new Orbital doesn't sound too > promising. I'll check it out though...

I kind of went the same was as you on the Orb releases (although U.F.Orb was my favourite, with Orb's adventures second). Orbital though, I went in the completely opposite direction... To me, Orbital II is just a collection of dance tracks (with some good ones mind you, and I have to admit, it does flow nicely, almost as good as Sniv does), and Orbital I had its moments (particularly Desert Storm), but on the whole not one of my better albums... Chris ----------------------------Chris Azure------------------------- |------ |--- _ \ garunya@hklink.net ____ | _ _ | ( | | | | | \ / The Broken Circle | _ _ | __ __| "I've not lived forever yet" - Chris Azure _ | | | | | __| | _|___ __| _| DBZ Liberation Front | | T B C "PIKKORO-SAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAN!!!!!!!" - Son Gohan _| DBZLF_|

Chris Azure writes:

quoted 4 lines It's this "interaction"

> It's this "interaction" > between tracks, and the entire album structure, partly, that lets me > appreciate ["Snivilisation"], and I've never really been able to appreciate > anything else to the same degree.

I wonder if this is due to "They don't make 'em like they used to anymore" syndrome ... cf. Joy Division "Unknown Pleasures" (1979) and "Closer" (1980) Wire "154" (1979) Siouxsie & The Banshees "A Kiss In The Dreamhouse" (1982) Test Dept. "The Unacceptable Face Of Freedom" (1986) Cindytalk "In This World" (1988) John Foxx "Metamatic" (1980) [A record *everyone* on IDM should hear ... ] David Byrne & Brian Eno "My Life In The Bush Of Ghosts" (1981) (and if I thought a bit more, about a million others ... ) All of these demonstrate that "interaction between tracks ... and the entire album structure". True "albums" as opposed to "a collection of tracks". The term "Tour de force" comes to mind. (Don't get me wrong, there's a lot of albums in the here & now that I like quite a bit. But I don't know how many of them have that sweeping "grand connectedness" of the above. I love "In Pine Effect" to death but it's still a collection of disjoint-set tracks. Maybe I'm not thinking hard enough, but the recent CDs and vinyl are 15 feet away from me ... (-: ) - Greg

Regarding the interaction between tracks: sometimes, it's the equipment that a group uses that make it easier to come up with something that holds well together than the inverse. One however can only be impressed when you see the gear list of Orbital and check the result (considering that they do use a huge array of very different synths on snivilisation). Same goes for people like Jean-Michel Jarre. Use an AKS Synthi on one track and a Seiko SD-320 on another you`ll see what i mean (i think mike metlay has witnessed exactly this...) Ciao, -- Francois Dion (IdMEDIA) [> Email: francois@hyperreal.com <] ' [> C.P. 278, St-Lambert, QC, Canada, J4P 2N8 <]

On Wed, 17 Apr 1996, Greg Earle wrote:

quoted 2 lines I wonder if this is due to "They don't make 'em like they used to anymore&q

> I wonder if this is due to "They don't make 'em like they used to anymore" > syndrome ...

I think it's rather that it's just something that doesn't happen often. I've most likely got a lot of this life still to live though and fully expect to be grabbed by other albums in the same way (or better) in future, whether they be old or new... It's a horrible thought though that some albums I (or anyone else) might consider utterly perfect are never going to be heard by me... this list helps to lessen this of course, but there's no way to know of everything ever made, and some of it's just going to be oblivious to me forever (This is common sense to most, but it is something I find very disturbing sometimes, although it's not quite as scary as the concept of eternity. An eternity of not knowing my favourite song/album? I'm not even going to think about that one.) [List of various albums]

quoted 4 lines (and if I thought a bit more, about a million others ... )

> (and if I thought a bit more, about a million others ... ) > All of these demonstrate that "interaction between tracks ... and the entire > album structure". True "albums" as opposed to "a collection of tracks". > The term "Tour de force" comes to mind.

Thanks for the list. I have Unknown Pleasures, but it sounded a bit flat on the first couple of listens (I'll give it some more chances). The rest of them I'll check out when and if I can... Chris ----------------------------Chris Azure------------------------- |------ |--- _ \ garunya@hklink.net ____ | _ _ | ( | | | | | \ / The Broken Circle | _ _ | __ __| "I've not lived forever yet" - Chris Azure _ | | | | | __| | _|___ __| _| DBZ Liberation Front | | T B C "PIKKORO-SAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAN!!!!!!!" - Son Gohan _| DBZLF_|

Chris Azure writes:

quoted 5 lines The term "Tour de force" comes to mind.

>> The term "Tour de force" comes to mind. > > Thanks for the list. I have "Unknown Pleasures", but it sounded a bit flat > on the first couple of listens (I'll give it some more chances). The rest > of them I'll check out when and if I can ...

Remember that music has a temporal as well as a spatial dimension. All music exists in a context that includes time as an important element. That album which seemed so spiff-o-rama to you 4 years ago might cause you embarrassed giggles today. I was 20 years old when "Unknown Pleasures" was released in 1979. It was, essentially, the Squarepusher of its day (sans the hype (-: ) - i.e. it took the old (Stooges, Velvet Underground, even a touch of Black Sabbath) and the then-present (Punk Rock) and blended something totally new out of it ("Unknown Pleasures" along with other albums of that year like Public Image Ltd.'s "Metal Box" and Siouxsie & The Banshees' "Join Hands" and Gang of Four's "Entertainment!" essentially blueprinted "Post-Punk"). For me it remains my favorite album (or what other people would say, "Greatest Album Ever") both because of the musical content *and* the context in which it fit. Its context was my context. Much as our present-day albums we discuss on IDM exist in our current temporal context. I honestly don't have any idea how someone that is roughly 21 today would react to something like a (nearly) 17-year-old album like "Unknown Pleasures"; given that today's listener doesn't have the same context. It will be interesting to see what today's pre-schooler thinks of the Nuggets of '95-'96 in the year 2010. Anyone want to predict what will still be revered in hushed tones come then? - Greg

quoted 4 lines I honestly don't have any idea how someone that is roughly 21

>I honestly don't have any idea how someone that is roughly 21 >today would react to something like a (nearly) 17-year-old album >like "Unknown Pleasures"; given that today's listener doesn't have >the same context.

I listen to it every Sunday on viynl, and I'm 20, not 21. Sundays I pull out all the Joy Division/New Order records on viynl and pour over the LA Times Calendar section. Joy Division and New Order are (along with RDJ) the most important music in my life. Seeing New Order with 808 State at the Hollywood Bowl in 1993 was a life changing experience... /""'' /"'RESH Live and Direct from the G-Spot Orange County, California, USA

On a computer, Greg Earle typed:

quoted 4 lines I honestly don't have any idea how someone that is roughly 21

>> >I honestly don't have any idea how someone that is roughly 21 >> >today would react to something like a (nearly) 17-year-old album >> >like "Unknown Pleasures"; given that today's listener doesn't have >> >the same context.

To which Gonzalo Merchan responded:

quoted 6 lines I listen to it every Sunday on viynl, and I'm 20, not 21. Sundays I

>> I listen to it every Sunday on viynl, and I'm 20, not 21. Sundays I >> pull out all the Joy Division/New Order records on viynl and pour >> over the LA Times Calendar section. Joy Division and New Order are >> (along with RDJ) the most important music in my life. Seeing New >> Order with 808 State at the Hollywood Bowl in 1993 was a life >> changing experience...

I'd have to agree wholeheartedly. I consider JD/NO VERY key music in my life. But, more importantly, I'd disagree with Greg's assertion that today's listener of 21 years (or 20) can't understand what Ian was singing about. What JD's music was (mostly) about was the sadness and disappointments in life. Some was undoubtedly personal -- and NOBODY will ever understand it fully; but, to say that the music they made stands any less powerful or meaningful today is false. What matters more is the personality of the listener, not the date on the calendar. Now Mariah Carey on the other hand... I don't think I understand any of her... "songs". :-b Dale (aka MC Large Ingot)

quoted 18 lines On a computer, Greg Earle typed:

> On a computer, Greg Earle typed: >>>> I honestly don't have any idea how someone that is roughly 21 >>>> today would react to something like a (nearly) 17-year-old album >>>> like "Unknown Pleasures"; given that today's listener doesn't have >>>> the same context. > > To which Gonzalo Merchan responded: >>> I listen to it every Sunday on viynl, and I'm 20, not 21. Sundays I >>> pull out all the Joy Division/New Order records on viynl and pour >>> over the LA Times Calendar section. Joy Division and New Order are >>> (along with RDJ) the most important music in my life. Seeing New >>> Order with 808 State at the Hollywood Bowl in 1993 was a life >>> changing experience... > > I'd have to agree wholeheartedly. I consider JD/NO VERY key music > in my life. But, more importantly, I'd disagree with Greg's assertion > that today's listener of 21 years (or 20) can't understand what Ian > was singing about.

Whoa!!! (The sound you hear is the sound of Greg removing Dale's words from his mouth) Since when does "I ... don't have any idea how someone [young] today would react to something [now quite old]" equate to "today's [young] listener can't understand what Ian was singing about"??? I said no such thing.

quoted 5 lines What JD's music was (mostly) about was the sadness and disappointments

> What JD's music was (mostly) about was the sadness and disappointments > in life. Some was undoubtedly personal -- and NOBODY will ever > understand it fully; but, to say that the music they made stands any > less powerful or meaningful today is false. What matters more is the > personality of the listener, not the date on the calendar.

I don't quite agree. In the mid 70's I listened to a fair bit of The Doors, old Who, The Velvets, old(er) Bowie, etc. I am saying that I don't think my experience of that music could be quite the same as that of someone for whom it existed in a present context. That's not to say I couldn't appreciate it as being Good Music[tm], just that my context wasn't the same. What we listen to here on IDM, I would say, is music that mostly has an uplifting emotional context (if, indeed, it has that kind of element). "Happy ravers!" We're not really talking Gloom n' Doom stuff here. That's why I said what I said; I really don't know how someone that's young today, reading this mailing list, would react to something that's very old and non-Techno and which has no present-day context (i.e. I'm sure some of you young'uns on this list listen to non-Techno musics; JD doesn't sound like current-day guitar-based music). Heck, for all I know, the reaction could be "Awww, that's just more of that old-hat Rock n' Roll stuff." The interesting thing with IDM to me is that by being electronic and primarily non-vocal, it has the potential to be less context-based. The thing about context and present-day context comes across like this: if I hear something like "James Brown Is Dead" in the here and now, it sounds like what it is - cheesy old rave music. But it also reminds me of all the fun times I had at earlier raves here in L.A., and it provided the jumping block for a lot of people who hadn't had much exposure to raves or Techno music to get into the scene, so it remains an extremely influential record (notice how I said "influential", not "classic" or "great" or somesuch value judgement of the record itself). With Techno music having evolved so rapidly - FAR more rapidly than any music associated with any subculture I've been involved with in the past 20+ years - it will be interesting to see what stuff lasts well after its present-tense "Man, that takes me right back to Ibiza" or "Wow I can almost taste that E I was on when I heard <this track> at <that rave>" context has disappeared ... maybe I should ask some new 16 year old ravers what they think of "Charly" or "Spice" or "Energy Flow" or ... - Greg

On Fri, 19 Apr 1996, Greg Earle wrote:

quoted 4 lines What we listen

> What we listen > to here on IDM, I would say, is music that mostly has an uplifting emotional > context (if, indeed, it has that kind of element). "Happy ravers!" We're > not really talking Gloom n' Doom stuff here.

Hmmm...my take on this issue is *exactly* the opposite. I'd say most techno, even stuff that doesn't fall into the IDM sphere, is incredibly dark and brooding stuff. I think alot of IDM exemplifies this too - that hopeful melancholy of the early Detroit stuff extending its influence to records that are being made right now. Sure, there are some tracks that are more upbeat and jolly, but on the whole I'd say we're dealing with some fairly gloomy stuff here (and we love it! ;) ). - Matthew "I grew up thinking that techno music is actually something that you can't imagine. That is techno at its best. If you hear something that you'd never expect to hear - that's techno. If you hear something that kind of sounds like you've heard it before, then it's not techno." - Jeff Mills