IDM Mailing Archive

With all this talk of jungle, I am going to ask a niave question- with regard to breakbeats, what part ot is the 'break' and what part is the 'beat'? It may sound stupid, but the only thing I hear in breakbeats is a sped-up repitition of a bar of some hip-hop beat, as opposed the classic techno/house 4/4 'thump' 'thump' 'thump' beat. I became intrigued when I was sorting through some old stuff and came on to KLF's White Room...on the inside credits they list certain people as being responsible for the 'breaks' on certain tracks. Are these the same thing? Anyone who can clarify will relieve me of this stupid desire to know so that I may get back some IDM listening. I got Gerald on right now...old house and now his jungle...cool stuff.

At 10:57 PM 2/1/96 -0500, you wrote:

quoted 12 lines With all this talk of jungle, I am going to ask a niave question-

>With all this talk of jungle, I am going to ask a niave question- > >with regard to breakbeats, what part ot is the 'break' and what part is >the 'beat'? It may sound stupid, but the only thing I hear in breakbeats >is a sped-up repitition of a bar of some hip-hop beat, as opposed the >classic techno/house 4/4 'thump' 'thump' 'thump' beat. I became intrigued >when I was sorting through some old stuff and came on to KLF's White >Room...on the inside credits they list certain people as being >responsible for the 'breaks' on certain tracks. Are these the same thing? >Anyone who can clarify will relieve me of this stupid desire to know so >that I may get back some IDM listening. I got Gerald on right now...old >house and now his jungle...cool stuff.

Breakbeats came from jazz, where at some point in a song, the rest of the band would take a break and the drummer would play on without them. Hip-hop sampled these to make their loops and grooves. Break dancing came from these parts as well, because you "break" on the break. Jungle takes hip-hop and applies the Cubase sequencing software (from techno, btw) to it. eh

> From: Eric Hill <ehill@best.com> > > Breakbeats came from jazz, where at some point in a song, the rest of the > band would take a break and the drummer would play on without them. Hip-hop > sampled these to make their loops and grooves. Break dancing came from these > parts as well, because you "break" on the break. Jungle takes hip-hop and > applies the Cubase sequencing software (from techno, btw) to it. i'm not sure it's accurate to say that cubase is ``from techno'' -- it's probably used to create techno, but then it's also used to create many other styles; further, i'm sure that many other similar pieces of software are also used to create techno. (i'm feeling pedantic.) -- richard -- _______________________________________________________________________________ richard barnett richard@wg.icl.co.uk _______________________________________________________________________________

On Sat, 3 Feb 1996, Richard Barnett wrote:

quoted 14 lines From: Eric Hill <ehill@best.com>

> > From: Eric Hill <ehill@best.com> > > > > Breakbeats came from jazz, where at some point in a song, the rest of the > > band would take a break and the drummer would play on without them. Hip-hop > > sampled these to make their loops and grooves. Break dancing came from these > > parts as well, because you "break" on the break. Jungle takes hip-hop and > > applies the Cubase sequencing software (from techno, btw) to it. > > i'm not sure it's accurate to say that cubase is ``from techno'' -- it's > probably used to create techno, but then it's also used to create many other > styles; further, i'm sure that many other similar pieces of software are > also used to create techno. (i'm feeling pedantic.) > > -- richard

[sig deleted] It is quite an approximation to say Cubase is used to make these styles of music. On the other hand, quite a majority of these artists do seem to use Cubase (and Notator) with usually Atari computer. Of course counting out the people who don«t use a computer. But these two programs seem to rule the sequencing market anyway, whatever the style of music. And on a related topic: How many artists use stand-alone sequencers these days? I know a few using analog sequencers (Panasonic, of course). Some using a drum machine (Mark Cage) and some with something like an Alesis sequencer (Orbital, well at least live). Any others? Teemu from Teemu ----> tkorpipa@siba.fi ------------------------------------------------------------------ from a Sunday Times interview with Marvin the Paranoid Android Q: Music? A: Hate it. Q: Hobbies? A: Hating music. Q: What do you like the least? A: The entire multi-dimensional infinity of all creation. I don't like that at all.

quoted 4 lines Breakbeats came from jazz, where at some point in a song, the rest of the

> Breakbeats came from jazz, where at some point in a song, the rest of the > band would take a break and the drummer would play on without them. Hip-hop > sampled these to make their loops and grooves. Break dancing came from these > parts as well, because you "break" on the break.

Just to add my 2 cents, having listened to a bit of jazz and played it too, I can say that I've never heard of this "break" thing in relation to it. The normal jazz song structure involves 2 pieces, the solo and head sections, the latter of which is repeated twice within the song in the following sequence: head-solo-head. The head lays out the chord changes for the song along with the melody, and then the solo section involves improvisation over the main chord changes which were presented in the head. During the solo sections the drummer and bass player usually keep the time, with the piano player "comping", or playing the chords in different ways, while each other instrument takes a turn at soloing over the changes. And occasionally the drummer takes his portion of the solo, but this is considered part of the solo section, not a different part of the song. If this "break" part of the song were indeed the case, the whole solo portion of a tune should then be called the "break" because some of the other players stop playing as well. Now I've heard of "breakdowns" and such for hip-hop and pop music, but I really can't see the connection between standard jazz tunes and breakbeat/jungle tunes. In fact, I'm even mystified when people talk about jungle utilizing hip-hop "breaks" in songs as even if you were to slow down the breakbeats, they would sound nothing like hip- hop - and besides, the jungle beats are for the most part not even syncopated. Anyway, it's just another thought... GD

On Sun, 4 Feb 1996, GD wrote:

quoted 16 lines Just to add my 2 cents, having listened to a bit of jazz and played

> Just to add my 2 cents, having listened to a bit of jazz and played > it too, I can say that I've never heard of this "break" thing in > relation to it. The normal jazz song structure involves 2 pieces, > the solo and head sections, the latter of which is repeated twice > within the song in the following sequence: head-solo-head. The head > lays out the chord changes for the song along with the melody, and > then the solo section involves improvisation over the main chord > changes which were presented in the head. During the solo sections > the drummer and bass player usually keep the time, with the piano > player "comping", or playing the chords in different ways, while each > other instrument takes a turn at soloing over the changes. And > occasionally the drummer takes his portion of the solo, but this is > considered part of the solo section, not a different part of the song. > If this "break" part of the song were indeed the case, the whole solo > portion of a tune should then be called the "break" because some of > the other players stop playing as well.

This is a good description of what happens in the mainstream jazz tradition (including bebop), but there are, of course, myriad jazz artists and subgenres that dispense with this form... Some solos, especially in New Orleans-style jazz, were played over what's called "stop time," basically where the accompaniment as a whole drops out every two bars or so and the soloist goes it completely alone. Often drum solos were handled this way in the 20s; the group would outline the chord sequence on counts 1 and 8 of an 8-beat phrase, and the drummer would play some sort of rhythmic tattoo designed to show off his speed and prowess. This can be heard in present-day mainstream jazz as well, though with somewhat less frequency.

quoted 7 lines Now I've heard of "breakdowns" and such for hip-hop and pop music,

> Now I've heard of "breakdowns" and such for hip-hop and pop music, > but I really can't see the connection between standard jazz tunes > and breakbeat/jungle tunes. In fact, I'm even mystified when people > talk about jungle utilizing hip-hop "breaks" in songs as even if you > were to slow down the breakbeats, they would sound nothing like hip- > hop - and besides, the jungle beats are for the most part not even > syncopated. Anyway, it's just another thought...

A lot of them sound to me like sped-up reggae or funk-jazz (e.g. Lonnie Liston Smith) beats. Not being all that interested in jungle, I lack vinyl to support this thesis. :) For what it's worth, Matthew L. Weber Library Assistant University of Michigan Music Library You say we are tossed with wars. What then? Were not they of old time likewise? Yes, Lipsius, they had their beginning with the world, and shall never be at an end so long as the world lasts. Justus Lipsius, 1547-1606, "The Evils of the Times," 1584

At 16:18 04/02/96 -0500, GD wrote:

quoted 4 lines In fact, I'm even mystified when people

>In fact, I'm even mystified when people >talk about jungle utilizing hip-hop "breaks" in songs as even if you >were to slow down the breakbeats, they would sound nothing like hip- >hop

Time s-t--r---e----t-----c------h--------i---------n----------g ...check your Akai user manual for more details :) Also, a technique also seems to sample snares and bassdrums at the normal tempo and then pepper these over the main break. Whatever works. OnNow: Happy Mondays : _Wrote For Luck_ || [CiM] || s.walley@uea.ac.uk || http://www.sys.uea.ac.uk/~u9323899/

Breaks are a well known and oft-used component of improvisational jazz. They tend to be shorter than solos at around a measure or so and involve any instrument that plays alone for that time (We talk about breakbeats because these are the variety of break that hip hop and jungle use, but you could as well hunt down the rare sax or vocal breaks). Hip hop used lots of these from groups like the Meters, Bob James and other 60's and 70's soul-jazz. One of the most-used breaks in jungle comes from the flip of a 1969 hit by the Winstons called "Color Him Father," usually having been cut to ribbons by the producer so as to be unrecognizable, but also well used by techno beatsnatchers and hip-hoppers alike. In much the same way that you can't take a rap instrumental, listen to the beat and reconstruct the song it was sampled from, you can't slow down a jungle chune and trace its roots. Speed is only one facial aspect of jungle and by far the more telling one is its building on the method of breakbeat sampling from jazz rekks pioneered by hiphop samplers. The beats don't seem similar to their hip hop predecessors because the nature of samplers and sequencing software today (primarily Cubase for its Arrange Window which enables composers to work with figures, loops and themes of arbitrary and differing lengths simultaneously) have allowed jungle producers to cut and sequence and restructure and timestretch the beats and parts of beats and even that one little hihat note can be riffed on for a measure or so if desired. This ability to microcompose and tweak the fuck out of beats that many times pays no attention to time signatures, note lengths, rudiments or any of that traditional stuff that is usually required for some piece of assembled sound to be considered real music. Taking into account the traditional definition of syncopation as "not falling on the beat," jungle falls well high on the list of spearheading exploration into progressive attitudes toward rhythm. eh

Eric Hill wrote:

quoted 4 lines Breaks are a well known and oft-used component of improvisational jazz. They

> > Breaks are a well known and oft-used component of improvisational jazz. They > tend to be shorter than solos at around a measure or so and involve any > instrument that plays alone for that time

Hmmmm...I guess this refers to what happens in some jazz tunes when the whole band is playing the melody where the group will play maybe 2 bars of the changes and then the drummer improvises the next two and then they repeat this sequence several times. This makes sense.

quoted 5 lines In much the same way that you can't take a rap instrumental, listen to the

> In much the same way that you can't take a rap instrumental, listen to the > beat and reconstruct the song it was sampled from, you can't slow down a > jungle chune and trace its roots. [...] The beats don't seem > similar to their hip hop predecessors because the nature of samplers and > sequencing software today

Well no wonder I don't recognize any hip-hop beats in there - if you make pesto with garlic and pine nuts in the blender it's hard to recognize the ingredients once the mix is done.

quoted 4 lines desired. This ability to microcompose and tweak the fuck out of beats that

> desired. This ability to microcompose and tweak the fuck out of beats that > many times pays no attention to time signatures, note lengths, rudiments or > any of that traditional stuff that is usually required for some piece of > assembled sound to be considered real music.

Well, you could describe the rhythms in a traditional sense; the timbre changes would be tough though. As for time signatures, most jungle is in 4/4, that is, the melodies or bass lines are. The rhythms may be all over the place but almost all jungle is in 4. Does anyone know of any artists who are doing jungle/breakbeat not in interesting time signatures?

quoted 4 lines Taking into account the

> Taking into account the > traditional definition of syncopation as "not falling on the beat," jungle > falls well high on the list of spearheading exploration into progressive > attitudes toward rhythm.

Well, but jungle usually doesn't usually have "swing" or syncopation in it. The only example of syncopated jungle I can think of is the Plug series. Most everything else seems like it has been quantized 'straight' without any of the swing element being used. GD

At 9:52 am 6/2/96, GD wrote:

quoted 4 lines Well, but jungle usually doesn't usually have "swing" or syncopation in

>Well, but jungle usually doesn't usually have "swing" or syncopation in >it. The only example of syncopated jungle I can think of is the Plug >series. Most everything else seems like it has been quantized 'straight' >without any of the swing element being used.

I disagree. It does. It's impossible to get the 'jungle-break-feel' with a drum machine (or sampled single hits) and a sequencer with straight quantization. It needs to 'lag' just a bit at times or else it sounds like a dull, rigid techno groove. I does have a swing of sorts. Those tambourines that tingle over a lot of breaks aren't staight quantized. They 'lag'. In some breaks the snares 'stutter'. Know what I mean? 2 cents. CYA! Paul. _____.____. ._ .__ ___. ..__ _ _.. . . . /____.____/ \ /___/___/ \ /____ /____ ///______/ /..__ _ _.. . . . \____\\____\/ \\_______\/ ..__ _ _.. . . .

quoted 4 lines Well, but jungle usually doesn't usually have "swing" or syncopation in

>Well, but jungle usually doesn't usually have "swing" or syncopation in >it. The only example of syncopated jungle I can think of is the Plug >series. Most everything else seems like it has been quantized 'straight' >without any of the swing element being used.

Syncopation isn't the same thing as swing (triplet- or jazz phrasing). There has been a wave of jazzy jungle that uses swing quantization for the effect I think you are looking for. Ask your local purveyor of quality chewnies to hook you up. eh

On Wed, 28 Feb 1996, GD wrote:

quoted 4 lines Paul Maguire wrote:

> Paul Maguire wrote: > > > I disagree. It does. It's impossible to get the 'jungle-break-feel' with a > > drum machine (or sampled single hits)

A lot of jungle beats come from messing around with the sampler, and it's stuff you can do as well: 1. Get some fly slammin loop off of an old hip hop loop. 2. Time compress it so it's at the tempo of your choice (like 160bpm. 3. Make a bunch of sampler patches that start at different points in the loop. 4. Trigger different parts of the loop for different durations, at different points in them measure. Do get all those bastard drum rolls: 1. Cut individual hits out of the loop. 2. Construct a new sample by triggering the individual loop on every 16th note and resampling it. 3. Time compress the 16th note roll by 1/2 to get 32nd note roles. 4. set up sample looping so that the roll repeats from key down to key up. 5. Record in MIDI, alternating between the 16th note roll and the 32nd note roll. Now with those two techniques, come up with a bunch of 4 bar patterns of the classic 3-bars-of-repeat+one-of-fill sort... throw it all together and release it on Metalheadz ;-) --------------------------------------------------------------------- In an expanding universe, time is on the side of the outcast. Those who once inhabited the suburbs of human contempt find that without changing their address they eventually live in the metropolis. -- Quentin Crisp Kent Williams kent@inav.net (319) 338 6053 (home) (319) 626 6700 x 219 (work) (319) 626 3489 (fax)