IDM Mailing Archive

On Thu, 2 Feb 1995, Greg Earle wrote:

quoted 19 lines I remembered some discussion a few months ago about the new Scorn album,

> > I remembered some discussion a few months ago about the new Scorn album, > > which I thought was titled _Dub_. Anyway, I was browsing my local > > BlockBuster Music (high prices, but you occasionally can find something > > out there) and stumbled on _Colossus_, recorded from 1992-93 and released > > by Earache USA in 1994. > > [ >8 -snip- 8< ] > > > Anyway, if anyone out there sees this disc, take the time to listen to it > > if you can. It's not bad. And if anyone knows what album by Scorn I'm > > thinking about that *was* kind of dubby (in that Earache sort of way), > > drop me a line. > > Gee, didn't we talk about this back last July, Dave? (-: > > Anyway, you're thinking of "Evanescence" - the one with "redefining Ambient > Dub" on the sticker. Funnily enough, I just heard most of it last weekend. > My wife went and promised an old friend (and Industrialist-Without-A-Clue as > of yet, alas) that she'd play at his birthday party, so I had to miss the

industrial music is still alive and strong, and quite honestly i would rather not see a bunch of industrial artists doing techno. to insult them as being without clues only shows your ignorance which is oh so typical of the rave/techno scene. those industrial artists pioneered techno and ambience, so do us a favor and shut up and get some knowledge.

quoted 18 lines Dust Brothers for that )-: (Sigh. Women. Ya can't ... oh, never mind.)

> Dust Brothers for that )-: (Sigh. Women. Ya can't ... oh, never mind.) > > To be honest, I don't know where the "redefining Ambient Dub" comes from. > It's not Ambient by any stretch of the imagination. There's plenty of Dub > influence, though. If you're an Old Fart(tm), let me put it this way: the > album "Evanescence" most reminds me of is Public Image Ltd's "Metal Box" > (a.k.a. "Second Edition"). Not so much the music but the *feel* of the album: > it has that bass-heavy bass-up-front claustrophobic Dub feel to it, which > reminded me of "Metal Box". In other words, it's totally fuckin' cool (-: > > (What this has to do with IDM, I dunno. We resume our regularly scheduled > mu-Ziq track list trainspotting ... (-: ) > > OnNow: nothing (no CD player at work) > OnLast: Vibbert/Simmons "Weirs" (Geez, some of this rages but most of it sucks) > > - Greg >

On Fri, 3 Feb 1995 gsi2174@gsaix2.cc.GaSoU.EDU wrote:

quoted 16 lines On Thu, 2 Feb 1995, Greg Earle wrote:

> > > On Thu, 2 Feb 1995, Greg Earle wrote: > > > > Anyway, you're thinking of "Evanescence" - the one with "redefining Ambient > > Dub" on the sticker. Funnily enough, I just heard most of it last weekend. > > My wife went and promised an old friend (and Industrialist-Without-A-Clue as > > of yet, alas) that she'd play at his birthday party, so I had to miss the > > industrial music is still alive and strong, and quite honestly i would > rather not see a bunch of industrial artists doing techno. to insult > them as being without clues only shows your ignorance which is oh so > typical of the rave/techno scene. > > those industrial artists pioneered techno and ambience, so do us a favor > and shut up and get some knowledge.

Industrial artists pionered techno and ambient? How bout that.. Maybe you should inform the rest of the world of your discovery. It's prbably even more likely that industrial happened ALONGSIDE techno and ambient (with barely either ackowledging each other scarce for a few early crossovers). As far as industrial's 'ambience' is concerned, it's atmosphere was primarily miserable and noise oriented. I mean, you've seen one self-indulgent white guy dressed like a suburban vampire and..well..you've pretty much seen them all. And as far as dance-industrial is concerned, well that pretty much ended 'round the time Spin Magazine and MTV bought it out (when NIN became a top-40 rock band, they're real industrial-didn't you know?) ;) -implode@ids.net

On Fri, 3 Feb 1995, implode wrote:

quoted 22 lines On Fri, 3 Feb 1995 gsi2174@gsaix2.cc.GaSoU.EDU wrote:

> > On Fri, 3 Feb 1995 gsi2174@gsaix2.cc.GaSoU.EDU wrote: > > > > > > > On Thu, 2 Feb 1995, Greg Earle wrote: > > > > > > Anyway, you're thinking of "Evanescence" - the one with "redefining Ambient > > > Dub" on the sticker. Funnily enough, I just heard most of it last weekend. > > > My wife went and promised an old friend (and Industrialist-Without-A-Clue as > > > of yet, alas) that she'd play at his birthday party, so I had to miss the > > > > industrial music is still alive and strong, and quite honestly i would > > rather not see a bunch of industrial artists doing techno. to insult > > them as being without clues only shows your ignorance which is oh so > > typical of the rave/techno scene. > > > > those industrial artists pioneered techno and ambience, so do us a favor > > and shut up and get some knowledge. > > Industrial artists pionered techno and ambient? How bout that.. > Maybe you should inform the rest of the world of your discovery.

have you ever heard throbbing gristle, the hafler trio, zoviet france, clock dva, tag the anti group, etc? talk about pioneering! these artists pushed electronic music (and music in general) in the direction to lead up to what it is today. don't write off industrial music, because without it we would not be where we are today. i'm a little sick of hearing the phrase 'industrial artists with a clue' to indicate electronic music artists who change their styles. i think these artists have more of a clue than a majority of music artists out there. look at zoviet france and horizon 222. look at front line assembly and delerium. i think some of these artists have more talent and can produce music of a greater variety than the majority of techno music artists.

quoted 4 lines It's prbably even more likely that industrial happened ALONGSIDE techno

> > It's prbably even more likely that industrial happened ALONGSIDE techno > and ambient (with barely either ackowledging each other scarce for a few > early crossovers).

no. techno didn't really usher forth until 88 when the detroit innovators really brought the whole thing out of their little secret closet. you could glance to kraftwerk, cybotron and many others though. as for ambience, it's only just now become popular. sure you had music artists all through the 70's and 80's producing ambient music (brian eno, robert rich, and too many possible for me to name). plus there is the whole klaus schulze, tangerine dream, manuel gottsching electronic thing that went on...where does that fit in? read who juan atkins cites as his influences sometime. without industrial there would be no techno.

quoted 5 lines As far as industrial's 'ambience' is concerned, it's atmosphere was pr

> > As far as industrial's 'ambience' is concerned, it's atmosphere was primarily > miserable and noise oriented. I mean, you've seen one self-indulgent white > guy dressed like a suburban vampire and..well..you've pretty much seen > them all.

this is more a sad generalization then any sort of substantial fact.

quoted 4 lines And as far as dance-industrial is concerned, well that pretty much ended

> > And as far as dance-industrial is concerned, well that pretty much ended > 'round the time Spin Magazine and MTV bought it out (when NIN became > a top-40 rock band, they're real industrial-didn't you know?) ;)

i'd say einsturzende neubauten but now i'm getting off topic.

quoted 3 lines -implode@ids.net

> > -implode@ids.net >

On Fri, 3 Feb 1995 gsi2174@gsaix2.cc.GaSoU.EDU wrote:

quoted 6 lines Industrial artists pionered techno and ambient? How bout that..

> > Industrial artists pionered techno and ambient? How bout that.. > > Maybe you should inform the rest of the world of your discovery. > > have you ever heard throbbing gristle, the hafler trio, zoviet france, > clock dva, tag the anti group, etc? >

Yes, They're all very dull. What's your point?

quoted 8 lines i'm a little sick of hearing the phrase 'industrial artists with a clue'

> > i'm a little sick of hearing the phrase 'industrial artists with a clue' > to indicate electronic music artists who change their styles. i think > these artists have more of a clue than a majority of music artists out > there. look at zoviet france and horizon 222. look at front line assembly > and delerium. i think some of these artists have more talent and can > produce music of a greater variety than the majority of techno music > artists.

Funny how when indsutrial artists started crossing over, the industrial crowd would complain that they were too 'techno' or 'disco-like'

quoted 14 lines It's prbably even more likely that industrial happened ALONGSIDE techno

> > > > It's prbably even more likely that industrial happened ALONGSIDE techno > > and ambient (with barely either ackowledging each other scarce for a few > > early crossovers). > > no. techno didn't really usher forth until 88 when the detroit innovators > really brought the whole thing out of their little secret closet. you could > glance to kraftwerk, cybotron and many others though. as for ambience, > it's only just now become popular. sure you had music artists all through > the 70's and 80's producing ambient music (brian eno, robert rich, and > too many possible for me to name). > > plus there is the whole klaus schulze, tangerine dream, manuel gottsching > electronic thing that went on...where does that fit in?

I don't know. I don(t think it fits in at all.

quoted 1 line without industrial there would be no techno.

> without industrial there would be no techno.

Without industrial, techno probably would have happened a bit sooner, actually. (No fear of being 'dancey' in sight)

So many genres, so little time to form affiliations. You folks just don't realize that techno and industrial really have nothing, and yet everything to do with each other. Point is, maybe one artist was influenced by another. Every artist is different, with different ideas, and different plans. Music happens when it happens. If I release a groundbreaking new track, there is always going to be somebody saying I was influenced by (or even ripping off) so-and-so. Regardless of the fact that I may not have even heard of the artist I'm supposedly ripping off! Reminds me of when I was a drummer...A certain detractor of mine claimed I was rehashing riffs from Billy Cobham...I had to go and buy Cobham albums to see what they were talking about... Influence is a funny thing...I have this weird feeling that it happens in this field of music much less than expected. God bonk me on the head if I ever say... "I make music influenced by [current hype]", because [current hype] rolls by fast... Meester Cameron On now Electric Eye "Closed Circuit" having my cake and eating it too....

On Fri, 3 Feb 1995, Jola Shepherd wrote:

quoted 28 lines So many genres, so little time to form affiliations. You folks

> > > So many genres, so little time to form affiliations. You folks > just don't realize that techno and industrial really have nothing, and > yet everything to do with each other. > > Point is, maybe one artist was influenced by another. Every > artist is different, with different ideas, and different plans. Music > happens when it happens. If I release a groundbreaking new track, there > is always going to be somebody saying I was influenced by (or even > ripping off) so-and-so. Regardless of the fact that I may not have even > heard of the artist I'm supposedly ripping off! > > Reminds me of when I was a drummer...A certain detractor of mine > claimed I was rehashing riffs from Billy Cobham...I had to go and buy > Cobham albums to see what they were talking about... > > Influence is a funny thing...I have this weird feeling that it > happens in this field of music much less than expected. God bonk me on > the head if I ever say... "I make music influenced by [current hype]", > because [current hype] rolls by fast... > > > Meester Cameron > > > On now Electric Eye "Closed Circuit" > having my cake and eating it too....

yeah i totally agree with you there mate.......it does get a bit tiring having to read all the genre wars on here....we're all in this together ppl, we're all on the same side-im not really THAT bothered about who influenced a track/album, as long as i like it-i'll buy it! airfix twerp

On Sat, 4 Feb 1995, airfix twerp wrote:

quoted 38 lines On Fri, 3 Feb 1995, Jola Shepherd wrote:

> > > On Fri, 3 Feb 1995, Jola Shepherd wrote: > > > > > > > So many genres, so little time to form affiliations. You folks > > just don't realize that techno and industrial really have nothing, and > > yet everything to do with each other. > > > > Point is, maybe one artist was influenced by another. Every > > artist is different, with different ideas, and different plans. Music > > happens when it happens. If I release a groundbreaking new track, there > > is always going to be somebody saying I was influenced by (or even > > ripping off) so-and-so. Regardless of the fact that I may not have even > > heard of the artist I'm supposedly ripping off! > > > > Reminds me of when I was a drummer...A certain detractor of mine > > claimed I was rehashing riffs from Billy Cobham...I had to go and buy > > Cobham albums to see what they were talking about... > > > > Influence is a funny thing...I have this weird feeling that it > > happens in this field of music much less than expected. God bonk me on > > the head if I ever say... "I make music influenced by [current hype]", > > because [current hype] rolls by fast... > > > > > > Meester Cameron > > > > > > On now Electric Eye "Closed Circuit" > > having my cake and eating it too.... > yeah i totally agree with you there mate.......it does get a bit tiring > having to read all the genre wars on here....we're all in this together ppl, > we're all on the same side-im not really THAT bothered about who > influenced a track/album, as long as i like it-i'll buy it! > airfix twerp >

No shit. I find all styles have shitty artists as well as good artists. The only type of person I have trouble respecting is someone that doesn't use there own mind to make choices on what music they listen too. Like the fuckers at work...."I hate this techno computer fart noise," small minded radio feed mass consumer. "Oh yea, What would you rather listen too?", me. "How about Nirvana or Pearl Jam or Green Day (insert mass marketed psuedo alternative rebellious teenager music here). "Oh yeah, have you ever heard Big Black or Scratch Acid...etc?" I says. "No, I only like these bands (major label, mass marketed, heavy radio and or mtv play)." Or the guy that thinks Trent Reznor "is a fucking genius" but has failed to listen to anything other than Nine Inch Nails, Front 242, Nitzer Ebb, and Skinny Puppy. Has anybody really invented anything entirely? No. Everything is a composite of other ideas. So to say that somone or a particular style has invented something is ludicrous. No one has heard every piece of music either, and there is more than one way to listen to a song critically. Anyway, I'll shut up, me's got to go to beddy boo. Derek moses@teleport.com Inportland Techno Acid Ambient Mail Order DJ Rumpleforeskin Import Domestic Records-C.D.'s 0--\___/--\___/---0 phone/fax 503-620-3340 SUBMERGE TO THE DEEPEST DEPTHS IN ORDER THAT THE HIGHEST BE ELEVATED TO LIGHT *Alfred Rosenberg

On Fri, 3 Feb 1995, implode wrote:

quoted 12 lines On Fri, 3 Feb 1995 gsi2174@gsaix2.cc.GaSoU.EDU wrote:

> > > On Fri, 3 Feb 1995 gsi2174@gsaix2.cc.GaSoU.EDU wrote: > > > > Industrial artists pionered techno and ambient? How bout that.. > > > Maybe you should inform the rest of the world of your discovery. > > > > have you ever heard throbbing gristle, the hafler trio, zoviet france, > > clock dva, tag the anti group, etc? > > > > Yes, They're all very dull. What's your point?

that's your opinion. if that is all you are going to say, then i have very little need to continue this thread. please spare the rest of us your ignorance.

quoted 36 lines i'm a little sick of hearing the phrase 'industrial artists with a clue'

> > > > > i'm a little sick of hearing the phrase 'industrial artists with a clue' > > to indicate electronic music artists who change their styles. i think > > these artists have more of a clue than a majority of music artists out > > there. look at zoviet france and horizon 222. look at front line assembly > > and delerium. i think some of these artists have more talent and can > > produce music of a greater variety than the majority of techno music > > artists. > > Funny how when indsutrial artists started crossing over, the industrial > crowd would complain that they were too 'techno' or 'disco-like' > > > > > > > It's prbably even more likely that industrial happened ALONGSIDE techno > > > and ambient (with barely either ackowledging each other scarce for a few > > > early crossovers). > > > > no. techno didn't really usher forth until 88 when the detroit innovators > > really brought the whole thing out of their little secret closet. you could > > glance to kraftwerk, cybotron and many others though. as for ambience, > > it's only just now become popular. sure you had music artists all through > > the 70's and 80's producing ambient music (brian eno, robert rich, and > > too many possible for me to name). > > > > plus there is the whole klaus schulze, tangerine dream, manuel gottsching > > electronic thing that went on...where does that fit in? > > I don't know. I don(t think it fits in at all. > > > > without industrial there would be no techno. > > Without industrial, techno probably would have happened a bit sooner, > actually. (No fear of being 'dancey' in sight) >

It seems as if we're getting off the point somewhat. Industrial has its good and bad points, however one thing is for sure (in Britain at least) it ain't credible to be into industrial as anythin more than a sideline and the music itself gets a pretty bad write up in the popular music press (NME etc...). It's fair to say that industrial music has had an influence, especially on some of the harder sides of the techno dice, it is also fair to conclude that the evolution of modern industrial is being helped along by techno, a reciprocal relationship of sorts. Without doubt a lot of industrial music will follow the same formulaic pattern of yore and be, fairly I might add, consigned to the historical garbage can; this is of course the same for all genres of music though. Reactionary ideas are the real enemies to progression, especially of quality. Arguments over artificial musical divides should be avoided in favour of examining areas of overlap and exploiting these to the benefit of all concerned. (cdh20@cam.ac.uk) ---------------- sorry if I've missed the point but that's how I see it. On now Trance Atlantic (Buy, borrow of steal a copy of this 24 tracks very few duff ones, unlike some Trance Europe express comps that I could mention)

On Fri, 3 Feb 1995, implode wrote:

quoted 12 lines On Fri, 3 Feb 1995 gsi2174@gsaix2.cc.GaSoU.EDU wrote:

> > > On Fri, 3 Feb 1995 gsi2174@gsaix2.cc.GaSoU.EDU wrote: > > > > Industrial artists pionered techno and ambient? How bout that.. > > > Maybe you should inform the rest of the world of your discovery. > > > > have you ever heard throbbing gristle, the hafler trio, zoviet france, > > clock dva, tag the anti group, etc? > > > > Yes, They're all very dull. What's your point?

While i find the Hafler trio and Zoviet France overated pretentious noise, Clock DVA are OK, but Throbbing Gristle are true pioneers in expeimental electronic music. Check out their track "Adrenalin" (sp?) off of TG's Greatest Hits (tongue in cheek name BTW) circa 1978. They were twidling knobs when Richard James was in diapers! Not to mention the talented offshoots Coil and Psychic Tv (I know, they suck lately).

quoted 10 lines i'm a little sick of hearing the phrase 'industrial artists with a clue'

> > i'm a little sick of hearing the phrase 'industrial artists with a clue' > > to indicate electronic music artists who change their styles. i think > > these artists have more of a clue than a majority of music artists out > > there. look at zoviet france and horizon 222. look at front line assembly > > and delerium. i think some of these artists have more talent and can > > produce music of a greater variety than the majority of techno music > > artists. > > Funny how when indsutrial artists started crossing over, the industrial > crowd would complain that they were too 'techno' or 'disco-like'

There are poseurs in every scene, but you are being elitist. I wasn't aware that you had to be from Detroit to like techno. The majority of my industrial pals also like techno. > > >

quoted 15 lines It's prbably even more likely that industrial happened ALONGSIDE techno

> > > It's prbably even more likely that industrial happened ALONGSIDE techno > > > and ambient (with barely either ackowledging each other scarce for a few > > > early crossovers). > > > > no. techno didn't really usher forth until 88 when the detroit innovators > > really brought the whole thing out of their little secret closet. you could > > glance to kraftwerk, cybotron and many others though. as for ambience, > > it's only just now become popular. sure you had music artists all through > > the 70's and 80's producing ambient music (brian eno, robert rich, and > > too many possible for me to name). > > > > plus there is the whole klaus schulze, tangerine dream, manuel gottsching > > electronic thing that went on...where does that fit in? > > I don't know. I don(t think it fits in at all.

Tsk Tsk such ignorance!

quoted 1 line without industrial there would be no techno.

> > without industrial there would be no techno.

Well lets not exaggerate!

quoted 2 lines Without industrial, techno probably would have happened a bit sooner,

> Without industrial, techno probably would have happened a bit sooner, > actually. (No fear of being 'dancey' in sight)

I don't know how to say this without being impolite but.. you sir, have an attitude problem! Every single person I know that likes industrial music also like to DANCE ! What the fuck to you think you do in a club that plays industrial stuff? Some of the nicest kindest people i know are rivet-heads and they are certainly more open-minded than you. I guess I shouldn't assume that most people that like techno (IDM included) are ravers that also respect other peoples opinions. I'm actually so steamed by your ignorance that I don't think i'm making the point I wanted too. Ahhhhhhhhhhh <deep breath>. That's better. On a similar note may I suggest that anyone reading this checks out Einstuzende Neubauten. Any of their last three albums have many IDMish qualities to them. The funny thing is that they use natural metallic percussion and found sounds but no samplers really. I especially recmend the album with the white cover (Feunf Auf Der Nach Oben Offen Richtaskala ...I think!). This is one of the albums that got me interested in mellower 'ambient' music along with Throbbing Gristle. PLUR Sandy at Tribe303 Not on now but wish it was: Global Chillage (to calm me down!) ****************************************************************************** <slave screams> he thinks he knows what he wants <slave screams> thinks he has something to say <slave screams> he hears but doesn't want to listen <slave screams> he's being beat into submission ******************************************************************************

On Fri, 3 Feb 1995, The Sandman wrote:

quoted 11 lines I don't know how to say this without being impolite but.. you sir, have

> > > > I don't know how to say this without being impolite but.. you sir, have > an attitude problem! Every single person I know that likes industrial > music also like to DANCE ! What the fuck to you think you do in a club > that plays industrial stuff? Some of the nicest kindest people i know are > rivet-heads and they are certainly more open-minded than you. I guess I > shouldn't assume that most people that like techno (IDM included) are > ravers that also respect other peoples opinions. I'm actually so steamed > by your ignorance that I don't think i'm making the point I wanted too.

Whoa! Heh..I apologize if I seemed negative with my earlier post. I'd hate to be thought of as one of the many nasty people out there on the internet (trust me, I've run into most of them). My only point was that years back (when industrial was much bigger than it is now), there was most definately an attitude against anything percived as being intentionally dance oriented - 'disco' or whatever people would negatively term it. There was even an attitude by many of the 'noise indutrialists' against the bpm bands like Front 242..etc. I truly don't belive that the modern/current sound of techno began as some sort of offshoot of nitzer ebb and skinny puppy (although I happen to still listen to those records frequently enough ;) I actually see more influence from the early 80's breakdancing scene than I do from the gloomy noise mongers. As far as being elitist against the industrial crowd is concerned, I think that's pretty unlikely considering how heavily I was into that stuff when I was a bit younger. (Much more into it, I dare say, than any of your clubby friends are- but who knows?) Maybe I should just start a new email address so you can send me angry mail whenever you're feeling down? -implode@conan.ids.net

On Sat, 4 Feb 1995, implode wrote:

quoted 19 lines On Fri, 3 Feb 1995, The Sandman wrote:

> > > On Fri, 3 Feb 1995, The Sandman wrote: > > > > > > > > > I don't know how to say this without being impolite but.. you sir, have > > an attitude problem! Every single person I know that likes industrial > > music also like to DANCE ! What the fuck to you think you do in a club > > that plays industrial stuff? Some of the nicest kindest people i know are > > rivet-heads and they are certainly more open-minded than you. I guess I > > shouldn't assume that most people that like techno (IDM included) are > > ravers that also respect other peoples opinions. I'm actually so steamed > > by your ignorance that I don't think i'm making the point I wanted too. > > Whoa! Heh..I apologize if I seemed negative with my earlier post. > I'd hate to be thought of as one of the many nasty people out there > on the internet (trust me, I've run into most of them).

whatever. i'd chose the word ignorant before nasty.

quoted 12 lines My only point was that years back (when industrial was much bigger

> > My only point was that years back (when industrial was much bigger > than it is now), there was most definately an attitude against anything > percived as being intentionally dance oriented - 'disco' or whatever > people would negatively term it. There was even an attitude by many > of the 'noise indutrialists' against the bpm bands like Front 242..etc. > > I truly don't belive that the modern/current sound of techno began > as some sort of offshoot of nitzer ebb and skinny puppy (although I happen > to still listen to those records frequently enough ;) I actually see > more influence from the early 80's breakdancing scene than I do from > the gloomy noise mongers.

i've read that juan atkins' influences range from ultravox to kraftwerk to cabaret voltaire to throbbing gristle. carl craig cites klaus schulze and tangerine dream as influences on his work. just dropping a needle on a carl craig track certainly confirms that. i mean, jeez, what about 'e2-e4' by manuel gottsching? not only sueno latino but paperclip people as well. as to your earlier comment that music by tangerine dream and gottsching don't fit in with the influences on techno artists, the above certainly disproves that nonsense. before you open your mouth on a subject, get some knowledge. industrial music had a lot of influence on today's artists. they'll even tell you themselves.

quoted 8 lines As far as being elitist against the industrial crowd is concerned,

> > As far as being elitist against the industrial crowd is concerned, > I think that's pretty unlikely considering how heavily I was into > that stuff when I was a bit younger. (Much more into it, I dare say, > than any of your clubby friends are- but who knows?) > > Maybe I should just start a new email address so you can send me angry mail > whenever you're feeling down?

your ignorance and attitude are beginning to bug me.

quoted 3 lines -implode@conan.ids.net

> > -implode@conan.ids.net >

on now: edward ka-spel 'tanith and the lion tree'

quoted 4 lines As far as industrial's 'ambience' is concerned, it's atmosphere was pr

> As far as industrial's 'ambience' is concerned, it's atmosphere was primarily > miserable and noise oriented. I mean, you've seen one self-indulgent white > guy dressed like a suburban vampire and..well..you've pretty much seen > them all.

Skinny Puppy has a few tracks that would fool me if I didn't know who the artist was, quite ambient without all the extra noise and chaos. One that comes to mind is 'The Centre Bullet'. -Merrick Brown- -mvbrown@tenet.edu- -Vertigo-