IDM Mailing Archive

quoted 1 line Maybe just a couple of people could notice that how something that

> Maybe just a couple of people could notice that how something that

started out as a definite part of inner-city culture has been co-opted by white, suburban kids. < Trust me, plenty people have noticed, it's happened with just about every original American music form. Elvis = Vanilla Ice = Michael Bolton = Moby -reverb

quoted 1 line Maybe just a couple of people could notice that how something that

> Maybe just a couple of people could notice that how something that

Reverb> started out as a definite part of inner-city culture has been co-opted by Reverb> white, suburban kids. < Reverb> Trust me, plenty people have noticed, it's happened with just Reverb> about every original American music form. Reverb> Elvis = Vanilla Ice = Michael Bolton = Moby yes, I read this complaint all the time - "co-opted by white suburban kids", I'm trying to figure out why this is bad. Is it because the music originally came from blacks and gays and the white kids are homophobic and racist?

quoted 7 lines I don't like Reverb's implication that techno is an "original American

> >I don't like Reverb's implication that techno is an "original American >music form' that was stolen from blacks by 'the man'. At least that is >what I read in his above comment. Race is not the issue. >Techno is a true >multinational art-form. It trancends ethnic, national, and racial >boundries.

I have to agree, although there really is not such thing as race per se, but I had always had a feel for music and the person who wrote it. Particularily if it was written by a white or a black person. Then I heard Dave Angels stuff. I never see pictures of these people, but the vibe I felt when I heard his stuff was that this person was white. Then I found out he was black. I thought that was kinda neat that no matter what your ethnic background was, it would not influence the listeners perception of the music. No bias. I have always associated house music with black artists, and yes I know this is an incorrect assumption, but being raised in a hick town makes you think strange things. I personally think these forms of music are a great way of breaking down prejudicial barriers, at least it was in my case. rstride@wimsey.com ...

Sorry Sandy, but you terribly misinterpreted my post. I would never be so naive or simplistic as to assume that techno has been taken over by "The Man," it's more complex than that. It is a fact that Major US labels (and indeed some European ones) have largely ignored the roots of Techno, instead focusing on the easily marketed acts. With the exception of Kenny Larkin and Gerald Simpson's short-lived CBS deaIt's obvious that something more than a coincidence is happenning. And please, please don't bring that dusty-ass Kraftwerk excuse out again --- everyone knows that they were influential, but it was blacks in Detroit that created and nurtured Techno as we know it today. It would be stupid to dismiss all output from white techno artists, but it would be equally stupid to assume that race is not an issue. - reverb

quoted 6 lines And please, please don't bring that dusty-ass Kraftwerk excuse out

> And please, please don't bring that dusty-ass Kraftwerk excuse out > again --- everyone knows that they were influential, but it was blacks > in Detroit that created and nurtured Techno as we know it today. > > It would be stupid to dismiss all output from white techno artists, > but it would be equally stupid to assume that race is not an issue.

I think it's racist to attach too much importance to the race of a musician. While Detroit techno has its roots in a unique black subculture, the talents of the people making it have nothing to do with their dermal melanin count. In jazz, and in blues, the black masters of the form regularly employ white musicians as side men. They judge the musician by what he does, not his skin color. Even Miles Davis and Rahsaan Roland Kirk, whose venom towards a racist society was, if anything, much more extensively and eloquently expressed had no problems with white musicians. If James Drexciya has a problem with white musicians taking his musical lead, I hope he bases it on the music they produce. If it's lame, then go ahead and diss it. And I hope the new Drexciya does really well internationally and that Warp pays honest royalties to them. The fact of the matter is, no one is becoming fabulously wealthy making dance music. Hell, I don't think Instinct, Astralwerks and TVT are making that much money. They're in the pinball business -- if they sell enough of the current catalog, they get to bring new disks out. Their combined total sales are dwarfed by one Michael Bolton disk. One of thing I really like about dance culture (at least the microcosm of dance culture available to me in Iowa) is that it is a place where these things don't matter -- black, white, asian, straight, gay, mutant, even old crusties like me mix and party with no problem.

On Tue, 24 Jan 1995, Kent Williams wrote:

quoted 5 lines I think it's racist to attach too much importance to the race of a

> > I think it's racist to attach too much importance to the race of a > musician. While Detroit techno has its roots in a unique black > subculture, the talents of the people making it have nothing to do > with their dermal melanin count.

This strikes me as a naive comment (ie. about the role race plays in American life). It would be ridiculous for anyone to argue that skin color per se influences musical content. At the same time arguing that everyone should be "race blind" when evaluating music ignores the entire context in which the production, distribution and consumption of music occurs. Sure, you could argue that there may be ways in which the "aesthetic" value of a particular piece could be evaluated in and of itself. However, your desire to review works, genres etc. while ignoring race reveals more about yourself as a reviewer than it does about the work that is being reviewed. As an example, you might be able to evaluate the songs of Billie Holiday by discussing the compositions and her voice etc.; however many would argue that by NOT discussing the social circumstances under which the songs were produced (her history, race relations in the US, etc.), you end up missing the boat. The entire DISCO SUCKS movement (promoted by album oriented rock stations) of the late 70's illustrates how it is impossible to separate aesthetics from social context. Much of the force which propelled white teenage boys and their girlfriends into large stadiums to watch bulldozers roll over disco albums was homophobia and racism. However, the argument for why disco sucked was always cast as an aesthetic one (it's too repetitive, it's lyrics are too simplistic, where are the guitars?,etc.). And yet today (in the US at least) we are barraged with tv ads for 70's disco compilations that depict white heterosexual couples browsing the track listing while saying, "you've got to buy this collection, it has all the disco hits you've always loved!" Yeah, right. Not too long ago Yoko Ono appeared on a (US) talk show and basically argued that Americans' reaction to her in her relationship with John and the mean-spiritidness with which they disparaged her music was motivated by racism pure and simple. Why, despite its origins, is today's "techno" consumed by a largely white and middle class audience? is a relevant question. So is: Why do so many techno/ambient artists like to sample black female vocals or "world" music (because this is aesthetically pleasing to the aforementioned?)?

quoted 6 lines The fact of the matter is, no one is becoming fabulously wealthy

> The fact of the matter is, no one is becoming fabulously wealthy > making dance music. Hell, I don't think Instinct, Astralwerks and TVT > are making that much money. They're in the pinball business -- if they > sell enough of the current catalog, they get to bring new disks out. > Their combined total sales are dwarfed by one Michael Bolton disk. >

Not true, Madonna and Sire Records are certainly making a killing.

quoted 4 lines One of thing I really like about dance culture (at least the microcosm

> One of thing I really like about dance culture (at least the microcosm > of dance culture available to me in Iowa) is that it is a place where > these things don't matter -- black, white, asian, straight, gay, mutant, > even old crusties like me mix and party with no problem.

So in other words you've never been asked for three forms of ID to get into a club because of your skin color.

quoted 7 lines As an example, you might be able to evaluate the songs of

> > As an example, you might be able to evaluate the songs of > Billie Holiday by discussing the compositions and her voice etc.; > however many would argue that by NOT discussing the social circumstances > under which the songs were produced (her history, race relations > in the US, etc.), you end up missing the boat. >

Artistry is transcendant. There are many tortured souls, black, white whatever, whose response to that suffering is just some irritated whining. Music can and does work context free, as others have pointed out many techno records are packaged to obscure origins. How do you judge the race of a white label?

quoted 6 lines The entire DISCO SUCKS movement (promoted by album oriented

> The entire DISCO SUCKS movement (promoted by album oriented > rock stations) of the late 70's illustrates how it is impossible > to separate aesthetics from social context. Much of the force > which propelled white teenage boys and their girlfriends into large > stadiums to watch bulldozers roll over disco albums was homophobia and > racism.

They were reacting as well to the overcommercialized lame shallow music and the shopping mall disco jive. They weren't think about race. I wrote a review of the Village People for the Daily Iowan way back when, and touched on the homo-erotic overtones of a song like YMCA, and many people here were genuinely shocked!

quoted 6 lines Not too long ago Yoko Ono appeared on a (US) talk show

> Not too long ago Yoko Ono appeared on a (US) talk show > and basically argued that Americans' reaction to her > in her relationship with John and the mean-spiritidness > with which they disparaged her music was motivated by > racism pure and simple. >

Well, there is the fact that she sucks to consider ...

quoted 8 lines of dance culture available to me in Iowa) is that it is a place where

> > > of dance culture available to me in Iowa) is that it is a place where > > these things don't matter -- black, white, asian, straight, gay, mutant, > > even old crusties like me mix and party with no problem. > > So in other words you've never been asked for three forms of ID > to get into a club because of your skin color. >

Come on down to Iowa City buddy where the beer flows like water and no one gives a shit who you are, so long as you're of legal drinking age ..

I've been reading all this stuff for the last couple of days, trying, I guess to formulate some kind of "grand response". Failing that I'll just try to provide a couple of observations of things I've noted living here... On Tue, 24 Jan 1995, Kent Williams wrote:

quoted 9 lines And please, please don't bring that dusty-ass Kraftwerk excuse out

> > And please, please don't bring that dusty-ass Kraftwerk excuse out > > again --- everyone knows that they were influential, but it was blacks > > in Detroit that created and nurtured Techno as we know it today. > > but it would be equally stupid to assume that race is not an issue. > > I think it's racist to attach too much importance to the race of a > musician. While Detroit techno has its roots in a unique black > subculture, the talents of the people making it have nothing to do > with their dermal melanin count.

A factor that's gone pretty much undiscussed in this whole series of threads (though J. Hodge touched on it a bit [in reference to Chicago]) is the whole "underdog" factor. Without having lived in this city (Detroit -- well I live in the 'burbs but I think I've spent enough time in the city to say something about it) -- it's tough for an outsider to understand what living here does to your mindset. For the entire period of the 70's and 80's (the "formative years" for techno's creators), Detroit was the very sad punchline to the national joke: the most obvious, difficult example of what happens when a twentienth century industrial city breaks down. As the town's rep went from "Motor City" to "Murder City", the messages the city's residents got from the national, local, and international media is "you don't matter, maybe you did once but your time has passed, and in some way we want you to know that you did this to yourselves." At least among the artists who felt moved to create because of this, the reaction was to band together defensively and protectively. This reaction was reinforced by the profound indifference that their works receive at home.

quoted 5 lines If James Drexciya has a problem with white musicians taking his

> If James Drexciya has a problem with white musicians taking his > musical lead, I hope he bases it on the music they produce. If it's > lame, then go ahead and diss it. And I hope the new Drexciya does > really well internationally and that Warp pays honest royalties to > them.

This is a seperate issue. Overlooked by almost everyone in this controversy is that Drexciya is composed of a couple of very different individuals. I talked with a relatively well-known techno-figure-who-shall-remain-nameless this weekend, and the subject of the NME interview came up (he hadn't heard about it up to that point). According to this person, James is a much more confrontational, controversial individual than the other person in the group "G.", who, according to this person, is the primary _musical_ contributor to the project. "Aw, that's just James -- he's a little *touchy*." (An additional, unrelated note, is that "G." apparently has years and years worth of stunning (and very "out there") material on tape -- a lot of the Drexciya stuff that's been coming out are things he completed years ago) ----------------------------------------------------------------- dave walker, detroit art services marmoset@msen.com phat phorest phires <A HREF="http://www.msen.com/~marmoset/">Dave Walker</A>

quoted 8 lines From: Kent Williams (matt remix)

> From: Kent Williams (matt remix) > In jazz, and in blues, the black masters of the form regularly employ > white musicians as side men. They judge the musician by what he does, > not his skin color. > One of thing I really like about dance culture (at least the microcosm > of dance culture available to me in Iowa) is that it is a place where > these things don't matter -- black, white, asian, straight, gay, mutant, > even old crusties like me mix and party with no problem.

alot of music has it's roots in black culture be it jazz, blues, techno or whatever. there is a history of black music being overrun and diluted by the white population. techno has its roots in europe-kraftwerk and experimental electronics; electro and disco. house and disco is really a gay black thing in rooy form. techno was invented? in detriot by black musicians and has influenced a large mostly white population in europe and now back in north america. alot of the early detroit techno was characterised by a soul in the cold electronics that is missing in the stomp of the jackbooted european techno. the advantage of techno is that mostly the records consist of little information regarding the origin-so the race, creed, colour of the producer is unknown (and irrelevent). the music should stand up by itself. detroit doesn't receive the credit it is due and most techno released today isn't worthy of the title if used in it's detroitcentric terms. techno is a dirty word in alot of places and its the stupid, soulless and mostly white population thats to blame. find the UR album and read the inner sleeve-RIOT! respect matt

quoted 8 lines the advantage of techno is that mostly the records consist of little

> the advantage of techno is that mostly the records consist of little > information regarding the origin-so the race, creed, colour of the > producer is unknown (and irrelevent). the music should stand up by > itself. detroit doesn't receive the credit it is due and most techno > released today isn't worthy of the title if used in it's > detroitcentric terms. techno is a dirty word in alot of places and > its the stupid, soulless and mostly white population thats to blame. >

Well, for every million jillion records techno records made, there are a few gems -- that's why I read this list. A lot of techno is really dance-floor-only. In classical terms, this is 'occasional music.' It can sound really dumb on disk if it isn't first rate. I just would hate to see the discussion put on a racial basis, since that isn't true to my experience of the scene. Even if you're a pasty faced white guy like me, and you deeply empathize with the problems faced by blacks in America, you can't hope to understand the experience fully. The best one can do, really, is to meet people on their own terms, and judge them one at a time. I used to live in a black neighborhood in Cedar Rapids Iowa. Not the center of the ghetto, by any means, but a place where I was a minority and had to watch my manners if I didn't want to get my ass kicked. One year after Christmas I was sitting in my front room with a white friend and a black friend from the neighborhood. My friend was joking about what he got for christmas "oh, a ferrari, a big screen TV, a trip to Rio." The black guy wasn't laughing, he was just staring at him. When the white guy finished, the black guys response was "man, you been sleeping overtime." At that moment I got a glimpse of something alien to my white boy experience: to the black man joking like this wasn't funny because even though the white guy was just joking, it was within the realm of his (the white guy's) possibilities, but completely unattainable and foreign to the black man. Which brings me back around to James Drexciya's comments about rich white kids jumping on his bus. I can understand his resentment. But the answer is not to devalue what any does, just because of the circumstances of their birth. Being poor and black doesn't grant one any particular nobility, and being white and relatively well-to-do doesn't automatically make you a twit. I am curious as to why while I can buy dozens of disks by English dudes like Orb, FSOL and Orbital, I can't find any good comps of the real detroit stuff. As much as I like ambient music, do we really need another ambient comp?

On Wed, 25 Jan 1995, Kent Williams wrote:

quoted 4 lines I am curious as to why while I can buy dozens of disks by English dudes

> I am curious as to why while I can buy dozens of disks by English dudes > like Orb, FSOL and Orbital, I can't find any good comps of the real detroit > stuff. As much as I like ambient music, do we really need another > ambient comp?

There's a real devotion to vinyl here, since so many of the musicians are also DJ's. Check out the near-fetishization of vinyl with someone like Jeff Mills -- the Cycle 30 EP had *9* locked grooves, for example. Or the X-102 vinyl, with the grooves arranged like Saturn's rings on one side, and the tracks playing from inside-out on the other side... There's also the idea that vinyl 12"s are more "underground" than CD comps. Good news is that Submerge has planned a series of comps (the first, Depth Charge 1, is already out) that will make a fair amount of stuff on the Submerge-affiliated labels (UR, Shockwave, Red Planet, Happy, Simply Soul, and many more) availible on CD for the first time. ----------------------------------------------------------------- dave walker, detroit art services _ marmoset@msen.com freeke robot luv

On Wed, 25 Jan 1995, Dave Walker wrote:

quoted 2 lines There's a real devotion to vinyl here, since so many of the musicians are

> There's a real devotion to vinyl here, since so many of the musicians are > also DJ's.

I agree, but then why is so much of the vinyl that comes out of Detroit so shitty? I picked up an old Matrix 12" this week and it was paper thin, and I know many others have voiced complaints too.. :: Alan M. Parry :: fluid@hyperreal.com :: <finger me for PGP key> :: http://hyperreal.com/~fluid

BEGIN QUOTE FROM Alan M. Parry: : : I agree, but then why is so much of the vinyl that comes out of Detroit : so shitty? I picked up an old Matrix 12" this week and it was paper thin, : and I know many others have voiced complaints too.. : : It's called cash flow and availability. There was a long period of time where the major labels cornered the market on raw vinyl for pressing records, just so it wouldn't be available for indi labels. -- _____________________________________________________________________________ fixer@d2.com is Robert Smith Digital Domain phone: 310/314-2920 300 Rose Avenue fax: 310/314-2866 Venice, CA 90291 _____________________________________________________________________________ "The future is not set. There is no fate but what we make for ourselves."

On Wed, 25 Jan 1995, Alan M. Parry wrote:

quoted 6 lines There's a real devotion to vinyl here, since so many of the musicians are

> > There's a real devotion to vinyl here, since so many of the musicians are > > also DJ's. > > I agree, but then why is so much of the vinyl that comes out of Detroit > so shitty? I picked up an old Matrix 12" this week and it was paper thin, > and I know many others have voiced complaints too..

Wish I hand an answer for you but I don't. It's not a _universal_ problem with all the labels, though: for example, the stuff on Axis is always immaculately mastered and pressed. On the other hand (sorry, Richie & Matt) I've had particular problems with a lot of Intellinet stuff. My copy of the Teste "Perceptrons" EP is unlistenable due to all the surface crud, the first copy of Public Energy's "Slumber" I picked up was nearly as bad, and even things as recent as the last Telepathic single (only a few weeks ago) had major problems. Maybe you need to kick some butts. :) [note: these aren't audiophile/weenie problems like the ones people have been complaining about on the ambient list, these are drastic things, like big patches of crud on the vinyl)] ----------------------------------------------------------------- dave walker, detroit art services _ marmoset@msen.com absolutely sweat, marie <A HREF="http://www.msen.com/~marmoset/">Dave Walker</A>

I agree with you Kent, especially the part about race not being an issue among jazz musicians and the like. It realy shouldn't matter -- I'm just saying that quite a few people who are intent on making money on techno make it an issue. I hate to play Drexciya's advocate here (expecially since I disagree with half of what he says ... if you've been reading IDM for a few weeks) Unfortunately, it is a reality, and as much as I'd like to think that it wasn't a problem somewhere down the line, I can't. It's that simple. - reverb

Is it really necessary to figure out who's culture was responsible for bringing us techno? The evolution of music is a constant feedback cycle. Someone lays down a vibe be it classical, jazz or whatever and someone else hears it and runs with it. It comes back around and the cycle starts again. To try and decide where house music started is drawing arbitrary lines on a sphere that started rolling long before house music came around -- Mark Bowen mb@gettins.bche.uic.edu O O O O O O O O O H | H | H | H | H | H | H | H | H | HN C= N C= N C= N C=HN C=HN C=HN C=HN C=HN C=O \ / \ / \ / \ / \ / \ / \ / \ / \ / C C C C C C C C C / \ / \ / \ / \ / \ / \ / \ / \ / \ H R H R H R H R H R H R H R H R H R

Matt: Word to your mum. :) - reverb