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i think you guys/gals may be able to help me answer this... i've been planning a massive reworking on the group Phish's bizarre (and i think awful, but interesting nonetheles) rockopera Gamehenge. the final product will have zero sounds from the original, but will essentially be a massive, distorted 'cover' of the original. i will give it away for free. my question is this: should i bother asking permission to do this, or does the fact that it will be given away for free mean that i don't need to worry. help! _________________________________________________________________ Helping your favorite cause is as easy as instant messaging. You IM, we give. http://im.live.com/Messenger/IM/Home/?source=text_hotmail_join

the fact that you're giving it away for free might help a bit in preventing you from getting sued, but really doesn't have anything to do with the issue of copyright. however, the fact that only a few people will even get the reference all but ensures you'll be safe. knowwhatimean? i wouldn't worry about it. do your thing. On Jan 28, 2008 5:19 PM, nat hawks <natbot@hotmail.com> wrote:

quoted 21 lines i think you guys/gals may be able to help me answer this...

> > i think you guys/gals may be able to help me answer this... > > i've been planning a massive reworking on the group Phish's bizarre (and i > think awful, but interesting nonetheles) rockopera Gamehenge. > > the final product will have zero sounds from the original, but will > essentially be a massive, distorted 'cover' of the original. > > i will give it away for free. > > my question is this: should i bother asking permission to do this, or does > the fact that it will be given away for free mean that i don't need to > worry. > > help! > > _________________________________________________________________ > Helping your favorite cause is as easy as instant messaging. You IM, we > give. > http://im.live.com/Messenger/IM/Home/?source=text_hotmail_join

Crediting the original writer and publisher is all you need to do.. covers are fully legal. On Jan 28, 2008 5:19 PM, nat hawks <natbot@hotmail.com> wrote:

quoted 21 lines i think you guys/gals may be able to help me answer this...

> > i think you guys/gals may be able to help me answer this... > > i've been planning a massive reworking on the group Phish's bizarre (and i > think awful, but interesting nonetheles) rockopera Gamehenge. > > the final product will have zero sounds from the original, but will > essentially be a massive, distorted 'cover' of the original. > > i will give it away for free. > > my question is this: should i bother asking permission to do this, or does > the fact that it will be given away for free mean that i don't need to > worry. > > help! > > _________________________________________________________________ > Helping your favorite cause is as easy as instant messaging. You IM, we > give. > http://im.live.com/Messenger/IM/Home/?source=text_hotmail_join

I think the fact that the Grey Album is still available online says something there. I think as long as you're not making any profit off it, there's not much point in going after you legally, as it would cost too much to sue you, and what would they get in turn? Id say credit the original artists and you're gold.. -----Original Message----- From: Rjyan Kidwell [mailto:cexwell@gmail.com] Sent: Monday, January 28, 2008 3:24 PM To: nat hawks; idm Subject: Re: [idm] OT: "cover" rights... Crediting the original writer and publisher is all you need to do.. covers are fully legal. On Jan 28, 2008 5:19 PM, nat hawks <natbot@hotmail.com> wrote:

quoted 21 lines i think you guys/gals may be able to help me answer this...

> > i think you guys/gals may be able to help me answer this... > > i've been planning a massive reworking on the group Phish's bizarre (and i > think awful, but interesting nonetheles) rockopera Gamehenge. > > the final product will have zero sounds from the original, but will > essentially be a massive, distorted 'cover' of the original. > > i will give it away for free. > > my question is this: should i bother asking permission to do this, or does > the fact that it will be given away for free mean that i don't need to > worry. > > help! > > _________________________________________________________________ > Helping your favorite cause is as easy as instant messaging. You IM, we > give. > http://im.live.com/Messenger/IM/Home/?source=text_hotmail_join

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Er, didn't capital sue over the Grey Album? http://www.chillingeffects.org/piracy/notice.cgi?NoticeID=1142 The music might still be out there, but they noticed and took action... On Monday, January 28, 2008, at 05:28PM, "mantrakid" <mantrakid@neferiu.com> wrote:

quoted 48 lines I think the fact that the Grey Album is still available online says

>I think the fact that the Grey Album is still available online says >something there. I think as long as you're not making any profit off it, >there's not much point in going after you legally, as it would cost too much >to sue you, and what would they get in turn? > >Id say credit the original artists and you're gold.. > > >-----Original Message----- >From: Rjyan Kidwell [mailto:cexwell@gmail.com] >Sent: Monday, January 28, 2008 3:24 PM >To: nat hawks; idm >Subject: Re: [idm] OT: "cover" rights... > >Crediting the original writer and publisher is all you need to do.. covers >are fully legal. > >On Jan 28, 2008 5:19 PM, nat hawks <natbot@hotmail.com> wrote: > >> >> i think you guys/gals may be able to help me answer this... >> >> i've been planning a massive reworking on the group Phish's bizarre (and i >> think awful, but interesting nonetheles) rockopera Gamehenge. >> >> the final product will have zero sounds from the original, but will >> essentially be a massive, distorted 'cover' of the original. >> >> i will give it away for free. >> >> my question is this: should i bother asking permission to do this, or does >> the fact that it will be given away for free mean that i don't need to >> worry. >> >> help! >> >> _________________________________________________________________ >> Helping your favorite cause is as easy as instant messaging. You IM, we >> give. >> http://im.live.com/Messenger/IM/Home/?source=text_hotmail_join > > >--------------------------------------------------------------------- >To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org >For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org > > >

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I thought the initial backlash was because it was being released & distributed commercially... it wasn't until EMI took place that it really blew up and started getting widespread over the internet. Im not 100% sure on the story but im positive that the widespread official distribution (Grey Tuesday) took place AFTER the EMI action.... Nate -----Original Message----- From: Scott Gentzen [mailto:sgentzen@mac.com] Sent: Monday, January 28, 2008 3:36 PM To: 'idm' Subject: RE: [idm] OT: "cover" rights... Er, didn't capital sue over the Grey Album? http://www.chillingeffects.org/piracy/notice.cgi?NoticeID=1142 The music might still be out there, but they noticed and took action... On Monday, January 28, 2008, at 05:28PM, "mantrakid" <mantrakid@neferiu.com> wrote:

quoted 3 lines I think the fact that the Grey Album is still available online says

>I think the fact that the Grey Album is still available online says >something there. I think as long as you're not making any profit off it, >there's not much point in going after you legally, as it would cost too

much

quoted 20 lines to sue you, and what would they get in turn?

>to sue you, and what would they get in turn? > >Id say credit the original artists and you're gold.. > > >-----Original Message----- >From: Rjyan Kidwell [mailto:cexwell@gmail.com] >Sent: Monday, January 28, 2008 3:24 PM >To: nat hawks; idm >Subject: Re: [idm] OT: "cover" rights... > >Crediting the original writer and publisher is all you need to do.. covers >are fully legal. > >On Jan 28, 2008 5:19 PM, nat hawks <natbot@hotmail.com> wrote: > >> >> i think you guys/gals may be able to help me answer this... >> >> i've been planning a massive reworking on the group Phish's bizarre (and

i

quoted 8 lines think awful, but interesting nonetheles) rockopera Gamehenge.

>> think awful, but interesting nonetheles) rockopera Gamehenge. >> >> the final product will have zero sounds from the original, but will >> essentially be a massive, distorted 'cover' of the original. >> >> i will give it away for free. >> >> my question is this: should i bother asking permission to do this, or

does

quoted 17 lines the fact that it will be given away for free mean that i don't need to

>> the fact that it will be given away for free mean that i don't need to >> worry. >> >> help! >> >> _________________________________________________________________ >> Helping your favorite cause is as easy as instant messaging. You IM, we >> give. >> http://im.live.com/Messenger/IM/Home/?source=text_hotmail_join > > >--------------------------------------------------------------------- >To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org >For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org > > >

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quoted 1 line Crediting the original writer and publisher is all you need to do..

> Crediting the original writer and publisher is all you need to do..

Nope. You have to pay a compulsory license fee for each copy you distribute. Whether you charge for those copies is irrelevant. Here are the current rates: http://www.harryfox.com/public/infoRateCurrent.jsp This is assuming you want to be strictly legal. What you can get away with is a separate question. -- Tim Walters | http://doubtfulpalace.com --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

quoted 6 lines Crediting the original writer and publisher is all you need to do..

> > > Crediting the original writer and publisher is all you need to do.. > > Nope. You have to pay a compulsory license fee for each copy you > distribute. Whether you charge for those copies is irrelevant. >

I must respectfully disagree, Tim-- this licensing info you've linked to doesn't apply to cover versions, but to licensing the original recording. Covers are a totally different story. You can do a cover without permission as long as you credit the original writer/publisher.

"If you are manufacturing and distributing copies of a song which you did not write, and you have not already reached an agreement with the song's publisher, you need to obtain a mechanical license. This is required under U.S. Copyright Law, regardless of whether or not you are selling the copies that you made." this doesn't reference a cover of the song though, i read this to say that if you act as if an already recorded song is yours, or that you have rights to it and are distributing it you need to pay the mechanical fee. i think this would apply if say, we were doing an 80s soft rock cd to be sold on infomercials after 2am and we wanted to use the classic by Phil Collins, One More Night. we would have to pay the fee before burning the track on the disc... joshua. On Jan 28, 2008 5:16 PM, Tim Walters <walters@doubtfulpalace.com> wrote:

quoted 26 lines I must respectfully disagree, Tim-- this licensing info you've linked to

> > I must respectfully disagree, Tim-- this licensing info you've linked to > > doesn't apply to cover versions, but to licensing the original > recording. > > Incorrect. See: > > http://www.harryfoxagency.com/public/mechanicalLicense.jsp > > or google "mechanical license." > > > Covers are a totally different story. You can do a cover without > > permission > > as long as you credit the original writer/publisher. > > And pay the mechanical license fee. > > -- > Tim Walters | http://doubtfulpalace.com > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org > For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org > >

-- joshua. consequences are just a harmless by-product of having a good time all the time. http://ropeswingcities.com http://communikey.us http://ropeswingcities.com/josh23 http://ropeswingcities.com/gg http://www.spacepiratemusic.com

i take it back, you are right... "A *mechanical license* is a (often required) license that grants certain limited permissions to work with, study, improve upon, reinterpret, re-record (etc.) something that is not either a free<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_content> /open source <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_source> item or in the public domain <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_domain>." joshua. On Jan 28, 2008 5:23 PM, joshua. <joshua@ropeswingcities.com> wrote:

quoted 59 lines "If you are manufacturing and distributing copies of a song which you did

> "If you are manufacturing and distributing copies of a song which you did > not write, and you have not already reached an agreement with the song's > publisher, you need to obtain a mechanical license. This is required under > U.S. Copyright Law, regardless of whether or not you are selling the > copies that you made." > > > this doesn't reference a cover of the song though, i read this to say that > if you act as if an already recorded song is yours, or that you have rights > to it and are distributing it you need to pay the mechanical fee. > > i think this would apply if say, we were doing an 80s soft rock cd to be > sold on infomercials after 2am and we wanted to use the classic by Phil > Collins, One More Night. we would have to pay the fee before burning the > track on the disc... > > joshua. > > > On Jan 28, 2008 5:16 PM, Tim Walters <walters@doubtfulpalace.com> wrote: > > > > I must respectfully disagree, Tim-- this licensing info you've linked > > to > > > doesn't apply to cover versions, but to licensing the original > > recording. > > > > Incorrect. See: > > > > http://www.harryfoxagency.com/public/mechanicalLicense.jsp > > > > or google "mechanical license." > > > > > Covers are a totally different story. You can do a cover without > > > permission > > > as long as you credit the original writer/publisher. > > > > And pay the mechanical license fee. > > > > -- > > Tim Walters | http://doubtfulpalace.com > > > > > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org > > For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org > > > > > > > -- > joshua. > consequences are just a harmless by-product of having a good time all the > time. > http://ropeswingcities.com > http://communikey.us > http://ropeswingcities.com/josh23 > http://ropeswingcities.com/gg > http://www.spacepiratemusic.com

-- joshua. consequences are just a harmless by-product of having a good time all the time. http://ropeswingcities.com http://communikey.us http://ropeswingcities.com/josh23 http://ropeswingcities.com/gg http://www.spacepiratemusic.com

quoted 6 lines Covers are a totally different story. You can do a cover without

> > Covers are a totally different story. You can do a cover without > > permission > > as long as you credit the original writer/publisher. > > And pay the mechanical license fee. >

I hope you're not actually advising somebody on the IDM list to do this...?

it also says about them that this is only necessary that you are doing a close enough copy of the track that it is basically the same track just performed by you instead of the original... In America, section 115(a)(2) states: "A compulsory license includes the privilege of making a musical arrangement of the work to the extent necessary to conform it to the style or manner of interpretation of the performance involved, but the arrangement shall not change the basic melody or fundamental character of the work ..." thus preventing mechanical licenses being used to make substantially derivative works of a song. personally, i say just release it. who cares. i am totally advising someone on the idm list to do that. :) joshua. On Jan 28, 2008 5:28 PM, Rjyan Kidwell <cexwell@gmail.com> wrote:

quoted 10 lines Covers are a totally different story. You can do a cover without

> > > Covers are a totally different story. You can do a cover without > > > permission > > > as long as you credit the original writer/publisher. > > > > And pay the mechanical license fee. > > > > I hope you're not actually advising somebody on the IDM list to do > this...? >

-- joshua. consequences are just a harmless by-product of having a good time all the time. http://ropeswingcities.com http://communikey.us http://ropeswingcities.com/josh23 http://ropeswingcities.com/gg http://www.spacepiratemusic.com

quoted 5 lines personally, i say just release it. who cares.

> personally, i say just release it. who cares. > > i am totally advising someone on the idm list to do that. :) > >

Yeah-- thing about lawyers, they don't really have the time of day if you don't have a grip of cash they can get their crusty talons on...

quoted 4 lines And pay the mechanical license fee.

>> And pay the mechanical license fee. > > I hope you're not actually advising somebody on the IDM list to do > this...?

Like I said, what you can get away with is a separate question. When covering one song on a CD, it's kind of a no-brainer to spring for the license--it's cheap and keeps you legit. Any CD duplication house will require you to produce it; if you claim authorship of the song to avoid this, you've now committed not just copyright violation, but fraud. Really not worth it to save $90. Re-doing a whole Phish album for free download? Trickier. No advice from me! But it's definitely not legal unless you pay for the mechanical license. (US law, that is. I don't know about other countries. And I'm not a lawyer, etc., etc.) -- Tim Walters | http://doubtfulpalace.com --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

god bless the idm list. secondly, for the record, i absolutely hate phish, but the gamehenge album is a strange piece of modern americana mythology that begs for dramatic reevaluating. hell... i can definitely prove that both myself and my 'label' are just about broke, so i guess there's no real harm, particularly if it's not a spoofy version, just a weirder-than-weird version. i'll send you all a link when it's done!

quoted 34 lines Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2008 17:05:35 -0800

> Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2008 17:05:35 -0800 > From: walters@doubtfulpalace.com > To: idm@hyperreal.org > Subject: Re: [idm] OT: "cover" rights... > > >> And pay the mechanical license fee. > > > > I hope you're not actually advising somebody on the IDM list to do > > this...? > > Like I said, what you can get away with is a separate question. > > When covering one song on a CD, it's kind of a no-brainer to spring for > the license--it's cheap and keeps you legit. Any CD duplication house will > require you to produce it; if you claim authorship of the song to avoid > this, you've now committed not just copyright violation, but fraud. Really > not worth it to save $90. > > Re-doing a whole Phish album for free download? Trickier. No advice from > me! But it's definitely not legal unless you pay for the mechanical > license. > > (US law, that is. I don't know about other countries. And I'm not a > lawyer, etc., etc.) > > -- > Tim Walters | http://doubtfulpalace.com > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org > For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org >

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nat hawks wrote:

quoted 1 line god bless the idm list.

> god bless the idm list.

And all who sail in her. -- Tim Walters | The Doubtful Palace | http://doubtfulpalace.com --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

Here in France, you have the right to cover whatever you want, you just have to give a certain percentage if you earn money with it. Only sampling is subject to permission given by the original performer. But this is only the french (maybe european?) law. Concerning worlwide laws, I dont have a clue. Cyrill le 28/01/08 23:19:

quoted 16 lines i think you guys/gals may be able to help me answer this...

> i think you guys/gals may be able to help me answer this... > > i've been planning a massive reworking on the group Phish's bizarre (and i think awful, but interesting nonetheles) rockopera Gamehenge. > > the final product will have zero sounds from the original, but will essentially be a massive, distorted 'cover' of the original. > > i will give it away for free. > > my question is this: should i bother asking permission to do this, or does the fact that it will be given away for free mean that i don't need to worry. > > help! > > _________________________________________________________________ > Helping your favorite cause is as easy as instant messaging. You IM, we give. > http://im.live.com/Messenger/IM/Home/?source=text_hotmail_join >

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first of all, i think covering phish is a terrible idea and should be illegal in itself. that said, the worst they could do is send a cease and desist, and demand a portion of your payments. if you're giving it away for free, i don't see a problem. also, if phish does sue you, you'll become more famous than you could possibly imagine. go for it, and FUCK THEM IF THEY CAN'T TAKE A JOKE. On Jan 28, 2008 5:19 PM, nat hawks <natbot@hotmail.com> wrote:

quoted 16 lines i think you guys/gals may be able to help me answer this...

> > i think you guys/gals may be able to help me answer this... > > i've been planning a massive reworking on the group Phish's bizarre (and i think awful, but interesting nonetheles) rockopera Gamehenge. > > the final product will have zero sounds from the original, but will essentially be a massive, distorted 'cover' of the original. > > i will give it away for free. > > my question is this: should i bother asking permission to do this, or does the fact that it will be given away for free mean that i don't need to worry. > > help! > > _________________________________________________________________ > Helping your favorite cause is as easy as instant messaging. You IM, we give. > http://im.live.com/Messenger/IM/Home/?source=text_hotmail_join

-- Please note: This e-mail was sent from a notification-only address that cannot accept incoming e-mail. Please do not reply to this message. ---- pete lastname meatsock@gmail.com www.grep-fu.net --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

quoted 7 lines first of all, i think covering phish is a terrible idea and should be

>first of all, i think covering phish is a terrible idea and should be >illegal in itself. > >that said, the worst they could do is send a cease and desist, and >demand a portion of your payments. > >if you're giving it away for free, i don't see a problem.

No, of course you don't. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

right, because i'm obviously an idiot for disliking terrible music. nice one. On Jan 28, 2008 6:10 PM, Andrew Hime <andrewhime@verizon.net> wrote:

quoted 19 lines first of all, i think covering phish is a terrible idea and should be

> > > >first of all, i think covering phish is a terrible idea and should be > >illegal in itself. > > > >that said, the worst they could do is send a cease and desist, and > >demand a portion of your payments. > > > >if you're giving it away for free, i don't see a problem. > > No, of course you don't. > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org > For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org > >

-- Please note: This e-mail was sent from a notification-only address that cannot accept incoming e-mail. Please do not reply to this message. ---- pete lastname meatsock@gmail.com www.grep-fu.net --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org