IDM Mailing Archive

quoted 10 lines -----Original Message-----

> -----Original Message----- > From: pixilated [mailto:pixilated@Alum.Dartmouth.ORG] > > No. Records cost money because records cost you money to produce. It > costs you nothing if someone somehow replicates the music that is > produced when that record is played. The product you are selling when > you sell a record is a RECORD. The "music" isn't even on > there; it is in > the air and in your brain when you play it on a turntable. Otherwise > it's just grooves on vinyl.

sophistry.

quoted 5 lines What I am saying is that it seems strange

> What I am saying is that it seems strange > that you could claim sole ownership of the vibrations in the > air that I > experience as music. >

Who claiming this? Entitlement issues with free mp3s has nothing to do with this. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

Sophistry? The idea of authorial ownership is very much tied up with copyright and the idea of a work as an immaterial object. If you don't see how this relates to the issue of free MP3s, you need to think a little harder. -----Original Message----- From: John Reading [mailto:john.reading@us.didata.com] Sent: Wednesday, March 12, 2003 12:30 PM To: idm@hyperreal.org Subject: RE: [idm] Indie Ethics

quoted 9 lines -----Original Message-----

> -----Original Message----- > From: pixilated [mailto:pixilated@Alum.Dartmouth.ORG] > > No. Records cost money because records cost you money to produce. It > costs you nothing if someone somehow replicates the music that is > produced when that record is played. The product you are selling when > you sell a record is a RECORD. The "music" isn't even on there; it is > in the air and in your brain when you play it on a turntable. > Otherwise it's just grooves on vinyl.

sophistry.

quoted 5 lines What I am saying is that it seems strange

> What I am saying is that it seems strange > that you could claim sole ownership of the vibrations in the > air that I > experience as music. >

Who claiming this? Entitlement issues with free mp3s has nothing to do with this. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

i like this immaterial object angle.....thats kind of like saying that since houses are built with wood that the builders dont really have a right to sell them, and you can go live in the house for free, cause the arrangement of wood and nails into some kind of order cannot be copywritten. pixilated wrote:

quoted 34 lines Sophistry? The idea of authorial ownership is very much tied up with

> Sophistry? The idea of authorial ownership is very much tied up with > copyright and the idea of a work as an immaterial object. If you don't > see how this relates to the issue of free MP3s, you need to think a > little harder. > > -----Original Message----- > From: John Reading [mailto:john.reading@us.didata.com] > Sent: Wednesday, March 12, 2003 12:30 PM > To: idm@hyperreal.org > Subject: RE: [idm] Indie Ethics > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: pixilated [mailto:pixilated@Alum.Dartmouth.ORG] > > > > No. Records cost money because records cost you money to produce. It > > costs you nothing if someone somehow replicates the music that is > > produced when that record is played. The product you are selling when > > you sell a record is a RECORD. The "music" isn't even on there; it is > > in the air and in your brain when you play it on a turntable. > > Otherwise it's just grooves on vinyl. > > sophistry. > > > What I am saying is that it seems strange > > that you could claim sole ownership of the vibrations in the > > air that I > > experience as music. > > > Who claiming this? Entitlement issues with free mp3s has nothing to do > with this. > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org > For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

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Do you understand the difference between material and immaterial? Wood and nails are material. A house is material. The idea of a house is not. -----Original Message----- From: c [mailto:c@scarcelight.com] Sent: Wednesday, March 12, 2003 2:01 PM To: pixilated Cc: idm@hyperreal.org Subject: Re: [idm] Indie Ethics i like this immaterial object angle.....thats kind of like saying that since houses are built with wood that the builders dont really have a right to sell them, and you can go live in the house for free, cause the arrangement of wood and nails into some kind of order cannot be copywritten. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

c said:

quoted 5 lines i like this immaterial object angle.....thats kind of like saying that

> i like this immaterial object angle.....thats kind of like saying that > since houses are built with wood that the builders dont really have a > right to sell them, and you can go live in the house for free, cause > the arrangement of wood and nails into some kind of order cannot be > copywritten.

No offense, but do you have a brain? So far, in your attempts to create examples for immaterial products, you've mentioned candy (a very material product, and one that's edible) and a house (which, uhh, is about as material as you can get, given that it's, you know, real estate). So far you haven't mentioned anything that deals with copyright, and everything that deals with the sale of goods because they are physical products. No, a house isn't copyrighted, but unless you pay for the materials and pay for the labor, you're not going to live there. An immaterial object is something that doesn't exist in the physical world. Ideas, music, thought, processes -- they're represented by other things in the physical world. They're not "Candy" or "house." derek -- eggytoast.com - eggtastic.com ------ catchy signature coming soon --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

On Wednesday, March 12, 2003, at 02:10 PM, EggyToast wrote:

quoted 6 lines An immaterial object is something that doesn't exist in the physical

> > An immaterial object is something that doesn't exist in the physical > world. > Ideas, music, thought, processes -- they're represented by other > things in > the physical world. They're not "Candy" or "house."

lets take emotion for example. you can get an emotion from someone for free. it is completely intangible, and comes without restriction. you cant share the given emotion with another, but i guess you could say its yours. now, what is it called when you pay for an emotion? why, i think thats called prostitution. and you pay for it. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

You can't buy an emotion from someone else. You can pay someone to perform certain things or to outwardly express an emotion, but you cannot actually possess the emotion that he experiences. You can only perceive someone else's represenations and react to them yourself. You are paying for your own experience. Emotions are nontransferrable. -----Original Message----- From: Brett Dietsch [mailto:elph@lawngnome.org] Sent: Wednesday, March 12, 2003 2:20 PM To: eggy@eggtastic.om Cc: idm@hyperreal.org Subject: Re: [idm] Indie Ethics On Wednesday, March 12, 2003, at 02:10 PM, EggyToast wrote:

quoted 6 lines An immaterial object is something that doesn't exist in the physical

> > An immaterial object is something that doesn't exist in the physical > world. > Ideas, music, thought, processes -- they're represented by other > things in > the physical world. They're not "Candy" or "house."

lets take emotion for example. you can get an emotion from someone for free. it is completely intangible, and comes without restriction. you cant share the given emotion with another, but i guess you could say its yours. now, what is it called when you pay for an emotion? why, i think thats called prostitution. and you pay for it. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

Brett Dietsch said:

quoted 18 lines On Wednesday, March 12, 2003, at 02:10 PM, EggyToast wrote:

> > On Wednesday, March 12, 2003, at 02:10 PM, EggyToast wrote: >> >> An immaterial object is something that doesn't exist in the physical >> world. >> Ideas, music, thought, processes -- they're represented by other >> things in >> the physical world. They're not "Candy" or "house." > > lets take emotion for example. > > you can get an emotion from someone for free. it is completely > intangible, and comes without restriction. you cant share the given > emotion with another, but i guess you could say its yours. > > now, what is it called when you pay for an emotion? > > why, i think thats called prostitution. and you pay for it.

So.... Music is prostitution? After all, to 99% of the population, music exists only for the purpose of emotional response. People listen to songs that make them happy or sad, or that make them feel differently. If they "enjoy" it, it makes them happy, or agreeable. What purpose does music serve outside of creating an emotional response? Even the most base response to music, "I like it/I don't like it" is based on emotion, and created entirely for free. derek -- eggytoast.com - eggtastic.com ------ catchy signature coming soon --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

On Wednesday, March 12, 2003, at 02:34 PM, EggyToast wrote:

quoted 10 lines So.... Music is prostitution? After all, to 99% of the population,

> > So.... Music is prostitution? After all, to 99% of the population, > music > exists only for the purpose of emotional response. People listen to > songs > that make them happy or sad, or that make them feel differently. If > they > "enjoy" it, it makes them happy, or agreeable. What purpose does > music serve > outside of creating an emotional response?

not in so few words. if the artists wanted to give you music, they would, and occasionally do. if you dont want to divvy up the cash for what they're offering, dont take it. if they're giving it for free, help yourself. im not saying that people are only in it for the money, but these people do have to eat. perhaps prostitution was a bad example, but i guess the whole "intangible object" thing was a bad example to begin with. lets start arguing the weight of protons and neutrons, then expand them to a non-molecular level, and start talking about how nothing exists. everything is only perception, therefore, all of reality is free game.

quoted 3 lines Even the most base response to music, "I like it/I don't like it" is

> Even the most base response to music, "I like it/I don't like it" is > based on > emotion, and created entirely for free.

didnt you read whatshisfaces post? you cant transfer emotions. poetry, music, film, and everything else is all bunk. therefore, the "i like it/dont like it" argument is fundamentally flawed, as is all artistic appreciation and interpretation. wait. what were we arguing again? --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

Brett Dietsch said:

quoted 1 line wait. what were we arguing again?

> wait. what were we arguing again?

You know, I thought I knew, but then we got on this whole existential "does anything really exist" kick and now I'm lost. Who wants to go get some milkshakes? derek -- eggytoast.com - eggtastic.com ------ catchy signature coming soon --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

quoted 5 lines Who wants to go get some milkshakes?

> > >Who wants to go get some milkshakes? > >

mmm... intangible milkshake... -- ____________________________________________________ independent u.s. drum'n'bass -- http://vitriolix.com --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org