IDM Mailing Archive

i wrote:

quoted 3 lines I don't know. I'm no snob. but having spent a lot of time with

> > I don't know. I'm no snob. but having spent a lot of time with >> electronica in the last couple years, i'd have to say that most of it >> isn't built to last particularly, it's casual, disposable culture.

johnvon@digitalcutuplounge.com wrote:

quoted 2 lines I agree -- but what does that have to do with high/low art?

> >I agree -- but what does that have to do with high/low art?

ok, so there's disposable high culture, too. but...while there's part of high culture that's purely defined by market niche and/or cultural cache, there's a more credible definition of 'high' that has to do with making a refined, sophisticated art that has enough invested in it that it will reward sustained attention.

quoted 3 lines I think the

>I think the >'disposable' nature of much electronic music may have more to do with the >accelerated speed at which our culture is changing

well...something like Schoenberg's 2nd String Quartet emerged during a moment of speedy and volitile cultural change. Might not be something i listen to that often, but it is clear that there it has considerable depth as well as astonishing invention. Every time I listen to it, I'm grappling with it and coming away with new experiences. most electronica is written in a very simple form and rarely develops more than a simple idea or two over the course of 8 minutes. and for all the emphasis on creating news sounds, it's rare to hear a truly surprising new sound -- more likely someone carves out a bit of stylistic turf for themselves. Like i say, there's nothing wrong with this, it's very dionysian, fairly unpretentious (and hell it's what I'm listening to most of the time.) but the music tends to be more disposable because there's less invested in it.

quoted 2 lines I dislike most of the music that comes out of that world because it's 100%

>I dislike most of the music that comes out of that world because it's 100% >head music

i don't know...are you against literature, too? how boring, sitting around looking at text...

quoted 2 lines It

>It >seems to be taboo to use a regular beat in academia, however...

yeah, academia is fucked up and that seems to have been the death of classical music. At 7:38 PM -0400 5/18/01, d_jak wrote:

quoted 2 lines What about the Waltz? - a form used by many of the great "classical"

>What about the Waltz? - a form used by many of the great "classical" >composers, it was created specifically with dancing in mind

Bach's undancable gavottes and jigs do seem to presage idm... k --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

Kurt Hoffman wrote:

quoted 3 lines there's a more credible definition of 'high' that has to do

> there's a more credible definition of 'high' that has to do > with making a refined, sophisticated art that has enough invested in > it that it will reward sustained attention.

A lot of the contemporary electronic music I listen to certainly meets that definition...

quoted 6 lines I think the

> >I think the > >'disposable' nature of much electronic music may have more to do with the > >accelerated speed at which our culture is changing > > most electronica is written in a very simple form and rarely develops > more than a simple idea or two over the course of 8 minutes

Thinking like this is misjudging dance music by the standards of other music. Contemporary electronica is not really 'about' notes, chords, and melodies IMO -- especially IDM-style stuff like Autechre. It's more about textures and sounds, and in these aspects it has a much richer vocabulary than any music composed for conventional instruments. A lot of it is also about subtle effects and transitions between sounds. Anyway, I think the most important point is that music doesn't have to be complex to be art, to be good, to be high art, or whatever. Some of the greatest art is made up of just a few elements -- how about Illbient by We if you know that track -- it only has four sounds but is a classic track IMO.

quoted 3 lines Like i say, there's nothing wrong with

> Like i say, there's nothing wrong with > this, it's very dionysian, fairly unpretentious (and hell it's what > I'm listening to most of the time.)

You seem like a sophisticated listener, with taste ranging from Schoenberg to IDM. Why do *you* prefer to listen to electronic music?

quoted 2 lines but the music tends to be more

> but the music tends to be more > disposable because there's less invested in it.

I'd have to disagree with that...as a producer the music I'm making is very important to me, not just something casually tossed off in a free moment... John -- John von Seggern DJ/producer Digital Cutup Lounge Hong Kong http://www.digitalcutuplounge.com --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

quoted 5 lines i wrote:

>i wrote: > >> there's a more credible definition of 'high' that has to do >> with making a refined, sophisticated art that has enough invested in >> it that it will reward sustained attention.

johnvon@digitalcutuplounge.com wrote:

quoted 2 lines A lot of the contemporary electronic music I listen to certainly meets that

>A lot of the contemporary electronic music I listen to certainly meets that >definition...

I don't know if we really disagree. I think there is a certain amount of electronic music that does meet this definition. my point is that most electronica is not even trying to meet this definition. if it does, then, yeah, the difference between it and some "bona fide" woik of aht is nil.

quoted 9 lines most electronica is written in a very simple form and rarely develops

> > > most electronica is written in a very simple form and rarely develops >> more than a simple idea or two over the course of 8 minutes > >Thinking like this is misjudging dance music by the standards of other music. >Contemporary electronica is not really 'about' notes, chords, and melodies IMO >-- especially IDM-style stuff like Autechre. It's more about textures and >sounds, and in these aspects it has a much richer vocabulary than any music >composed for conventional instruments.

i'm all for appreciating every sort of music on its own terms. Beethoven, Derrick May and Howlin Wolf all made great art. I still think the idea of "high art" is useful for understanding why Beethoven did what he did, and of doubtful utility in appreciating the others. regarding conventional instruments, yeah you can get more variety of timbres with a powerbook, but it's just one approach to make music. it's all about what goes on in your head. I mean, look at us communicating with these ancient English words with 15th century spelling -- ie one can use conventional means to get all sorts of places (and cutting edge means to achieve little for that matter).

quoted 2 lines You seem like a sophisticated listener, with taste ranging from Schoenberg to

>You seem like a sophisticated listener, with taste ranging from Schoenberg to >IDM. Why do *you* prefer to listen to electronic music?

I don't think electronic/digital instruments are better, but they've managed to excite people with their novel possibilities and spur some interesting work. Anyway, I think that new Perlon comp is the next Gotterdammerung. k --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

Kurt Hoffman wrote:

quoted 5 lines i'm all for appreciating every sort of music on its own terms.

> i'm all for appreciating every sort of music on its own terms. > Beethoven, Derrick May and Howlin Wolf all made great art. I still > think the idea of "high art" is useful for understanding why > Beethoven did what he did, and of doubtful utility in appreciating > the others.

What about Autechre? Miles Davis? Frank Zappa? Where do you draw the line? I guess I have a grudge about this issue because I've spent some time in academia myself...I remember taking 20th century analysis as an undergraduate and limiting our study to 12-tone rows, set theory, etc. I asked the lecturer one day why Hendrix and Coltrane weren't on the syllabus but didn't receive a very convincing answer in response... Interestingly, I noticed from another post on this list that Autechre had Curtis Roads (an academic composer from UC-Santa Barbara) open for them at their LA show...what's really interesting to me is the crossover and merging of the academic/popular worlds in contemporary electronic music. There's a brilliant article by Kim Cascone about this in Computer Music Journal (vol 24 #4, Winter 2000), it's called 'The Aesthetics of Failure: Post-Digital Tendencies in Contemporary Computer Music'.

quoted 2 lines regarding conventional instruments, yeah you can get more variety of

> regarding conventional instruments, yeah you can get more variety of > timbres with a powerbook, but it's just one approach to make music.

Sure, but it's an approach that opens up vast new worlds of sound to explore...I was a jazz/pop/studio bassist for ten years before I got into electronic music, but now I've swapped my bass for a laptop on stage because the laptop can do so much more.

quoted 6 lines You seem like a sophisticated listener, with taste ranging from Schoenberg to

> >You seem like a sophisticated listener, with taste ranging from Schoenberg to > >IDM. Why do *you* prefer to listen to electronic music? > > I don't think electronic/digital instruments are better, but they've > managed to excite people with their novel possibilities and spur some > interesting work.

Right, it's not a matter of better/worse...however, I do think that one of the important elements of art is it's contemporary relevance. Good art suggests ways of dealing with new experiences and how to live in new contexts, which is why we always need new art/music -- the world and our experiences are always changing, perhaps never more quickly than right now. Autechre (just using them as an example) are relevant to our contemporary situation in a way that Beethoven isn't...at least that's my opinion. John -- John von Seggern DJ/producer Digital Cutup Lounge Hong Kong http://www.digitalcutuplounge.com --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

On 21/05/01 18:49, Digital Cutup Lounge said in living color:

quoted 5 lines Right, it's not a matter of better/worse...however, I do think that one of the

> Right, it's not a matter of better/worse...however, I do think that one of the > important elements of art is it's contemporary relevance. Good art suggests > ways of dealing with new experiences and how to live in new contexts, which is > why we always need new art/music -- the world and our experiences are always > changing, perhaps never more quickly than right now.

I don't think I can really agree with that (at least, in the way it's formulated/in the way I comprehend it). It seems you're implying that every work of art carries an "expiration date", after which it no longer has any relevance... (Also see below).

quoted 2 lines Autechre (just using them as an example) are relevant to our contemporary

> Autechre (just using them as an example) are relevant to our contemporary > situation in a way that Beethoven isn't...at least that's my opinion.

I'd be truly interested in hearing you develop that opinion, if possible. (No sarcasm whatsoever is intended.) g. -- Guillaume Grenier - gollum@videotron.ca in space there is no north in space there is no south in space there is no east in space there is no west --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

Enjoying this thread very much... Guillaume Grenier wrote:

quoted 12 lines On 21/05/01 18:49, Digital Cutup Lounge said in living color:

> On 21/05/01 18:49, Digital Cutup Lounge said in living color: > > > Right, it's not a matter of better/worse...however, I do think that one of the > > important elements of art is it's contemporary relevance. Good art suggests > > ways of dealing with new experiences and how to live in new contexts, which is > > why we always need new art/music -- the world and our experiences are always > > changing, perhaps never more quickly than right now. > > I don't think I can really agree with that (at least, in the way it's > formulated/in the way I comprehend it). It seems you're implying that every > work of art carries an "expiration date", after which it no longer has any > relevance... (Also see below).

Not so black and white, but IMO works of art and even whole genres do lose some of their relevance over time, particularly when society (as well as the fabric of our daily lives) is changing as fast as it has been in recent years. I am currently doing a thesis on electronic music and the Internet (there's more than one way to get paid for surfing the Web), and have recently been re-reading classic media theorist Marshall McLuhan on this topic, here's a couple of choice quotes: "In the history of human culture there is no example of a conscious adjustment of the various factors of personal and social life to new extensions [i.e., media] except in the…efforts of artists. The artist picks up the message of cultural and technological challenge decades before its transforming impact occurs. " "…in the electric age there is no longer any sense in talking about the artist’s being ahead of his time. Our technology, also, is ahead of its time, if we reckon by our ability to recognize it for what it is… Just as higher education is no longer a frill or luxury but a stark need of production and operational design in the electric age, so the artist is indispensable in the shaping and analysis and understanding of the life of forms, and structures created by electric technology." - both taken from _Understanding Media_ These are issues I have grappled with in my own career as a musician. My musical goal was always to be a great jazz bass player, I love to improvise and create music in the moment. However, it takes years of practice to become a really good improviser, and just by the time I started to feel like I was making real progress, I looked around and found that the relevance was draining right out of what I was doing. Time for a change. Now I'm co-leading a laptop improv band here in HK and I'm happy again... John -- John von Seggern DJ/producer Digital Cutup Lounge Hong Kong http://www.digitalcutuplounge.com --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org