IDM Mailing Archive

Why is it that guitars and electronic music just don't go together? For some reason whenever a guitar comes in on an electronic track it just sounds pretty cheesy. I decided to share this observation with the list because I am listening to System7 "Golden Section". THis is a pretty good cd but on one track out of nowhere some really lame sounding jerry garcia guitar licks come floating in and it just sounds wack. _toph_

Hhhm. Well, perhaps some of today's cheesy rave junk does sound a bit contrived when you hear a guitar warble in unannounced into a perfectly good track. But I think that guitars and electronic music can work together to marvelous effect. Witness all the early New Order stuff after their lead singer offed himself. One of the most perfect meldings of guiter and synths I have heard.... At 10:33 AM 1/28/98 -0800, you wrote:

quoted 12 lines Why is it that guitars and electronic music just don't go together?

> >Why is it that guitars and electronic music just don't go together? >For some reason whenever a guitar comes in on an electronic track >it just sounds pretty cheesy. I decided to share this observation >with the list because I am listening to System7 "Golden Section". THis >is a pretty good cd but on one track out of nowhere some really lame >sounding jerry garcia guitar licks come floating in and it just sounds >wack. >_toph_ > > >

Guitars are "instruments" as opposed to the rest of the techno genre which is digital - hence, not always an easy marriage. However, listen to Death in Vegas, Red Snapper, Underworld, Primal Scream for some examples where they've managed to make it work (IMO, and this is NOT worth flaming about ....) On 31 Jan 98, Sasha & Carol wrote: Re: (idm) guitars:

quoted 2 lines Witness all the early New Order stuff after their lead singer

> Witness all the early New Order stuff after their lead singer > offed himself.

WHOA ~~~ stready on !! That's no way to speak of Joy Division. Some respect is called for here : Ian Curtis is (was) a pretty sacred cow :-/ I * "Some people develop eyestrain just looking for trouble."

On Sat, 31 Jan 1998, Irene McC wrote:

quoted 7 lines Guitars are "instruments" as opposed to the rest of the techno genre

> Guitars are "instruments" as opposed to the rest of the techno genre > which is digital - hence, not always an easy marriage. > > However, listen to Death in Vegas, Red Snapper, Underworld, Primal > Scream for some examples where they've managed to make it work > (IMO, and this is NOT worth flaming about ....) >

OK So I hate Death in Vegas, Underworld and Primal Scream. Might I suggest better counterexamples -- Bowery Electric, Labradford, Seefeel, and My Bloody Valentine. I started out playing cello, and moved to guitar. The big problem with guitar is that developing any facility on it tends to mold your muscles towards cliches. While I have a lot of respect for good guitarists, a lot of what they do is what lies naturally "under the hand." I have way more interest in people working with guitars who use it in the service of creating new sounds, or in furthering a piece of music without calling attention to itself. A lot of what passes for guitar virtuosity reminds me of trained monkeys dancing -- it has a rote, unspontaneous feel to it. One of my favorite records these days actually is "The Sleepwalk Guitars of Dan and Dale" (on Diplomat Records "A product of Synthetic Plastics Company") which I got at Goodwill for .50 cents. Because while being extremely cheesy they use slides and bends in a very melodic way. Their version of "Willow Weep For Me" is amazing. And there's plenty of groovy vinyl clicks and hash for texture. And while I veer entirely off topic -- I also picked up the entire King James Bible on vinyl -- 55 LPs in 3 boxes in immaculate condition with braille labels. I always found reading the Bible tedious in the extreme, but having it read to you, through a pitch shift delay and phase shifter is very soothing...

quoted 2 lines On Sat, 31 Jan 1998, Irene McC wrote:

> > On Sat, 31 Jan 1998, Irene McC wrote:

quoted 6 lines I started out playing cello, and moved to guitar. The big problem

> > I started out playing cello, and moved to guitar. The big problem > with guitar is that developing any facility on it tends to mold your > muscles towards cliches. While I have a lot of respect for good > guitarists, a lot of what they do is what lies naturally "under the hand." >

all that having been said, i'd just like to comment that this is the first honest criticism of guitar-oriented music (idm and beyond) that i've seen from this list. but underworld still rocks. - wells np. fila brazillia 'luck be a weirdo tonight'

At 10:33 AM 1/28/98 -0800, Topher LaFata wrote:

quoted 11 lines Why is it that guitars and electronic music just don't go together?

> >Why is it that guitars and electronic music just don't go together? >For some reason whenever a guitar comes in on an electronic track >it just sounds pretty cheesy. I decided to share this observation >with the list because I am listening to System7 "Golden Section". THis >is a pretty good cd but on one track out of nowhere some really lame >sounding jerry garcia guitar licks come floating in and it just sounds >wack. >_toph_ > >

Good examples: 1. "The Blue Room" by the Orb featured some guitar by Steve Hillage 2. Underworld certainly makes good use of guitar sound 3. "Lift" by 808 State 4. Michael Brook's albums 5. Have you heard of the Robert Fripp and the Orb collaboration. 6. Prodigy (I'm sure I'm gonna receive a lot of reactions here). "Smack my Bitch up" is a great mix of guitar rock and breakbeat. "No Man Army" from the Spawn soundtrack featured the Prodigy and Tom Morello of Rage Against the Machine. It was an awesome track. 7. "Setting Sun" by the Chemical Brothers with Noel Gallagher is a very good record. There are a lot more. I get what you mean, there are a lot out there too that sounds really cheesy.

For me it isn't a matter of whether specific instrumentation can go along with my idea of what electronic music is, but whether the piece is musically solid as a whole (whatever that means). If you like it, you do. What you describe does sound wack, but i've listened to a lot of beautiful guitar work amist electronic music (em:t undark 2296 is highly recommended). On Wed, 28 January 1998, at 10:33:37, Topher LaFata wrote:

quoted 9 lines Why is it that guitars and electronic music just don't go together?

> Why is it that guitars and electronic music just don't go together? > For some reason whenever a guitar comes in on an electronic track > it just sounds pretty cheesy. I decided to share this observation > with the list because I am listening to System7 "Golden Section". THis > is a pretty good cd but on one track out of nowhere some really lame > sounding jerry garcia guitar licks come floating in and it just sounds > wack. > _toph_ >

quoted 7 lines Why is it that guitars and electronic music just don't go together?

>Why is it that guitars and electronic music just don't go together? >For some reason whenever a guitar comes in on an electronic track >it just sounds pretty cheesy. I decided to share this observation >with the list because I am listening to System7 "Golden Section". THis >is a pretty good cd but on one track out of nowhere some really lame >sounding jerry garcia guitar licks come floating in and it just sounds >wack.

underworld's makes good use of guitar. coil does too. can't think of any more right now, but it's certainly possible to do it well. -eric _____________________________________________________ :: eric sherman szale@doubtful.com :: :: doubtful productions www.doubtful.com ::

Sasha & Carol wrote:

quoted 8 lines Hhhm. Well, perhaps some of today's cheesy rave junk does sound a bit

> Hhhm. Well, perhaps some of today's cheesy rave junk does sound a bit > contrived when you hear a guitar warble in unannounced into a perfectly > good track. But I think that guitars and electronic music can work together > to marvelous effect. Witness all the early New Order stuff after their lead > singer offed himself. One of the most perfect meldings of guiter and synths > I have heard.... > >

what about the first fuckin neu! album... now that is beautiful... -mc

i didn't mean to say that all music with guitars in it is wack. i was just saying that modern beat oriented music often sounds lame with guitars thrown in. NEU! on the other hand isn't considered by me to fall into this category. I love the guitar work on thos 2 NEU records. ->what about the first fuckin neu! album... now that is beautiful... -> ->-mc -> ->

In a message dated 98-01-31 01:15:30 EST, you write: << Hhhm. Well, perhaps some of today's cheesy rave junk does sound a bit contrived when you hear a guitar warble in unannounced into a perfectly good track. But I think that guitars and electronic music can work together to marvelous effect. Witness all the early New Order stuff after their lead singer offed himself. One of the most perfect meldings of guiter and synths I have heard.... >> Other good examples of good melding of guitars and electronics would be depeche mode, nin, trans am, gong, some floyd, eno, ect... piece

quoted 1 line Why is it that guitars and electronic music just don't go together?

> > Why is it that guitars and electronic music just don't go together?

Who says IDM is electronics based? I like my IDM with a healthy helping of bagpipes, ocarinas and brazilian nose flutes ;-) For some fine wonky, interesting guitar try Polvo...

At 06:04 PM 1/31/98 +0800, Adrian P. Cuenca wrote:

quoted 1 line Good examples:

>Good examples:

quoted 1 line 5. Have you heard of the Robert Fripp and the Orb collaboration.

>5. Have you heard of the Robert Fripp and the Orb collaboration.

I would also like to add the Fripp and Eno albums. While they may be more ambient, they are nevertheless excellent. My favorite is Evening Star, the title track is simply gorgeous. No Pussyfooting is good as well, but IMHO not *as* good. Robert Fripp is better known for his Prog Rock (which doesn't seem to go over very well here) stuff, but don't let that put you off. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- anagram@cats.ucsc.edu http://home.cwnet.com/anagram/ "this is the only music that i have heard that caused physical pain. please turn it off."

On 31 Jan 1998, idm-digest wrote:

quoted 3 lines Why is it that guitars and electronic music just don't go together?

> Why is it that guitars and electronic music just don't go together? > For some reason whenever a guitar comes in on an electronic track > it just sounds pretty cheesy...

In addition to the other reasons mentioned, guitars are a code for some ideas that are very difficult to integrate into an electronic aesthetic (if they're not 100% incompatible)--such as, good old-fashioned authenticity, defiant working-class hero kind of stuff (or the much cheesier sort of overblown, insecure "masculinity" found in hair-metal bands of the 80's). This might be part of why Kent suggested that the most successful uses of guitar in electronic music depend on the avoidance of standard guitar formulas--b/c the formulas themselves become part of that "image," which has no place in this kind of music (except maybe an ironic one). For what it's worth-- J ________ \ / | "Who's Martha Stewart?" H. James Harkins | "She writes picture books about gracious living." jharkins@acpub.duke.edu | \/ | - from _Jeffrey_ "If we keep our attention focused on the present, we can be sure of one thing, namely that whatever we are attending to in this moment will change..." -- Jon Kabat-Zinn

On Sunday, 01-Feb-98, H James Harkins wrote [about (idm) guitars]:

quoted 3 lines Why is it that guitars and electronic music just don't go together?

>> Why is it that guitars and electronic music just don't go together? >> For some reason whenever a guitar comes in on an electronic track >> it just sounds pretty cheesy...

quoted 10 lines In addition to the other reasons mentioned, guitars are a code for some

>In addition to the other reasons mentioned, guitars are a code for some >ideas that are very difficult to integrate into an electronic aesthetic >(if they're not 100% incompatible)--such as, good old-fashioned >authenticity, defiant working-class hero kind of stuff (or the much >cheesier sort of overblown, insecure "masculinity" found in hair-metal >bands of the 80's). This might be part of why Kent suggested that the most >successful uses of guitar in electronic music depend on the avoidance of >standard guitar formulas--b/c the formulas themselves become part of that >"image," which has no place in this kind of music (except maybe an ironic >one).

well here's my .02 on the whole guitars debate.. I think it's most definitely possible, because under certain types of effects, a guitar can sound wicked as fuck. That's my .02 in a one-sentence form :) Also if you've heard the Cloudwatch CD, there's a track on there (track #8) by DJ Who and PJ Dorsey (of Modern Music).. and that's got quite a few guitar samples there, and the track rules IMO. __ __\ \ / /_\ \ \_____/ www.freq-div.home.ml.org