IDM Mailing Archive

ok. after hearing the umpteenth gescom/autechre track with the same drum loop repeating for 10 minutes and being (as usual) totally unimpressed, and after overhearing the umpteenth person in the record store praise said same tracks despite what i considered to be a very basic (and to my ears insurmountable) shortcoming, i've come to the conclusion that people actually _like_ stable, looping rhythms. sure, that's not much of a revelation: house, techno, trance, etc...dance-based music styles utilizing repeating rhythmic figures have been the standard since disco (shit, since r&b, altough the repetition didn't seem as precise and, well, _repetitious_ until the lind and the dmx). i guess what i find most confusing is the popularity of groups with characteristics such as these among audiences, ostensibly, of "intelligent dance music." i don't mean to patronizing here, or to suggest that gescom or autechre are not "intelligent" (i must admit i'm a dissenter to the use of these terms, but i suppose in this forum they make the most sense). nor do i hope to start an "i love/hate autechre" thread here (autechre, at any rate, were simply an example...i could cite dozens more). my question, simply, is what role does rhythm play here? on the other side of this rather plastic divide (and still within the range of styles discussed regularly on this list) are groups like plaid, atom heart, bedouin ascent, the black dog, cristian vogel, carl craig, etc., who approach rhythm in a more compositional sense; as something to be sculpted, a point of contact for a range of compositional tools usually only brought to bear on things like melody, harmony, etc. with autechre/gesom and other such groups, rhythm seems to be rather something to keep your attention, or something against which to gauge subtle shifts in texture and composition, etc. perhaps those with an interest in groups such as this could satifsfy my curiosity as to what they perceive the role of rhythm to be here... thanks, sc

I decided to clip the whole original message, because it was a little too hard to cut up. Any good deconstructionist/philosopher can boil down music until its just rhythm. (I forgot how, but my roommate showed me one time, and I agreed with him. He also likes idm.) Basically, every note, beat, sound has to start and stop, and therefore has some sort of 'rhythm', or measured time. I like trance and house, especially on the dance floor. A good groove can quickly become bliss inducing. Subtle variations are what tend to make these kinds of songs great, as different parts of the drums are removed and added. I think repitive loops have their place. Just ask the Legion of Green Men, the masters of the locked groove. I was just looking at your original post, and basically to explain Autechre, get the old stuff. Amber and Anti are undoubtedly their peak moments, and for me Flutter and Piezo are absolutely heart stopping. Flutter has no melody worth speaking of, and even more interestingly is extremely repetitive, which the entire track purports to avoid, at least in the drums. Piezo just has the most wicked beats I have ever heard. As I just indicated in a review, the new Key Nell remixes are utterly montonous. The original ep, specifically track 2, is a wonderful experiment in melody. What role does rhythm play in music? Well in dance music it's almost everything. At least dancefloor stuff. I think part of the reason that we're all on this list is that we reject the idea that dance/electronic needs to follow a repetitive, locked rhythm groove. If you ever get the chance, the PBS series "Marsalis on Music" with Wynton Marsalis has a wonderful explanation of the difference between the concepts 'rhythm' and 'groove'. Can't remember which episode it is, but I think it's one of the early ones. np: Gary Moscheles Phil Downey Thanks to the redundancy of language, yxx cxn xndxrstxnd whxt x xm wrxtxng xvxn xf x rxplxcx xll thx vxwxls wxth xn "x" (t gts lttl hrdr f y dn't vn kn whr th vwls r). --Steven Pinker

At 01:03 PM 12/4/96 -0800, Sean Cooper wrote: [...] my question, simply, is what

quoted 9 lines role does rhythm play here? on the other side of this rather plastic divide

>role does rhythm play here? on the other side of this rather plastic divide >(and still within the range of styles discussed regularly on this list) are >groups like plaid, atom heart, bedouin ascent, the black dog, cristian >vogel, carl craig, etc., who approach rhythm in a more compositional sense; >as something to be sculpted, a point of contact for a range of >compositional tools usually only brought to bear on things like melody, >harmony, etc. with autechre/gesom and other such groups, rhythm seems to be >rather something to keep your attention, or something against which to >gauge subtle shifts in texture and composition, etc. [...]

as far as for what I love about autechre (etc.?), you answered your own question with your last sentence: it's the minimalism that makes these tracks so incredibly deep. these "subtle shifts in texture" are what one doesn't necessarily recognize on a first listen, but that with every time one listens to the track again add more depth and fascination to it. coming to think of it, there are no other "etc." artists that I know that master this concept in the way autechre do, except maybe kenny larkin. his detroit style is quite different to autechre's, of course, but it's the same thing whith his _metaphor_ or especially _azimuth_ records: every single time I listen to them, I discover something new that makes the track that seemed plain "repetitive" or cold at first seem warmer, deeper, more complex every time. IMO, this concept is why people who like decent music, as we on this list do, usually don't like melodic stuff to dance to. anyone here who likes goa? no. exactly. it's the minimal tracks we all love. and on the dancefloor, black dog or certain detroit tracks are minimal compared to generic melodic techno, and that's why they're categorized under IDM. but, while black dog may well be my favorite artists, if you compare black dog to autechre, autechre is even more minimal, and that adds a special quality to their tracks that doesn't necessarily make them better, but certainly makes them some of the most fascinating tracks ever made depending on the mood you're in. --tom

Maybe this thread has run its course, but I have a few thoughts to add. Sean Cooper wrote:

quoted 6 lines [...] my question, simply, is what

> [...] my question, simply, is what > role does rhythm play here? on the other side of this rather plastic divide > (and still within the range of styles discussed regularly on this list) are > groups like plaid, atom heart, bedouin ascent, the black dog, cristian > vogel, carl craig, etc., who approach rhythm in a more compositional sense; > as something to be sculpted, a point of contact for a range of

^^^^^^^^ I've always thought of Autechre/Gescom tracks using a 'sculpture' analogy; they focus on creating rhythms that work well with the sounds they use and continuously tweak them, although the base rhythms might be the same ('Motor EP' is a good example of this). Maybe they seem static or cold to you, but I find them to be quite dynamic and expressive. As for the other artists you mention, most of them make extensive use of loops (Atom Heart being the exception with works like 'Brown' and 'Jet Chamber II'). In fact I'd say that only D&B is non-loop based (granted, the source material, i.e. hip-hop beats might be looped, but the beats are rearranged in much more complex ways), and that almost all electronica is fairly static in terms of rhythmic structure.

quoted 6 lines compositional tools usually only brought to bear on things like melody,

> compositional tools usually only brought to bear on things like melody, > harmony, etc. with autechre/gesom and other such groups, rhythm seems to be > rather something to keep your attention, or something against which to > gauge subtle shifts in texture and composition, etc. perhaps those with an > interest in groups such as this could satifsfy my curiosity as to what they > perceive the role of rhythm to be here...

For me texture is of prime importance when it comes to tracks, so the sound palette they employ alone is enough to keep me interested. But I think the rhythms they use are quite complex themselves (i.e. 'rsdio' on Tri Repetae or both tracks on side 2 of the 'Key Nell' EP on SKAM); it's not just an exercise in sound design. My 2 cents, GD