IDM Mailing Archive

I guess I should introduce myself: Hi, my name's Frank, <Hi, Frank!> and I'm an IDM addict for a year or so now... I've been seriously binging for the past 6mos or so, and I've been an IDM Lurker for ~2mos. Anyway, I *really* liked AMP -- I'm not quite sure what happened over at MTV, but somehow, some really great art broke through all the usual garbage on the MTV channel... Faves were definitely the Space Time Continum vid (wow: visual jazz!), the Autechre vid, and the Orbital vid (Remember Earth Clearly!). I wouldn't be surprised if the Tricky vid started getting some air on MTV -- its not too far from the mainstream (and I don't think that's all that bad). -frank

Hello, On Tue, 10 Sep 1996 16:20:06 -0400, "Frank Deutschmann" <fdeutsch@bfm.com> wrote:

quoted 3 lines I wouldn't be

> I wouldn't be >surprised if the Tricky vid started getting some air on MTV -- its not too far >from the mainstream (and I don't think that's all that bad).

I don't think you understand what has been going on the last few years. Since Kurt Cobain died, MTV has broadcast zero minutes of new music. Everything has been a retread of something previous. Nirvana-wannabes, Cocteau_Twins-wannabees, Grateful_Dead-wannabees, etc. etc. etc. MTV *knows* all about techno, they broadcast the "Love Parade" live on MTV Europe - and as mentioned on this mailing list, MTV Europe broadcasts techno videos all the time. There is some techno everywhere on USA TV and radio, except in *music* programming. EG the "Showbiz Today" program on CNN uses entirely techno music for their lead-ins, and even the Rush Limbaugh radio show uses plenty of house and techno for their lead-ins (called "bumps" in the radio business). So, MTV is clearly afraid of something with regards to techno. At the silly Woodstock '94 festival, MTV went out of their way to make fun of ravers who were there to catch The Orb. No other festival goers were made fun of. This is why the AMP program is so surprising. And is probably why it is only being shown at 3 a.m. ... Cheers, Ken <*> kstuart@mail.telis.org My favorite CD for 1996 so far = Orbital - "In Sides"

quoted 44 lines Hello,

>Hello, > >On Tue, 10 Sep 1996 16:20:06 -0400, "Frank Deutschmann" ><fdeutsch@bfm.com> wrote: > >> I wouldn't be >>surprised if the Tricky vid started getting some air on MTV -- its not too far >>from the mainstream (and I don't think that's all that bad). > >I don't think you understand what has been going on the last few >years. > >Since Kurt Cobain died, MTV has broadcast zero minutes of new music. > >Everything has been a retread of something previous. >Nirvana-wannabes, Cocteau_Twins-wannabees, Grateful_Dead-wannabees, >etc. etc. etc. > >MTV *knows* all about techno, they broadcast the "Love Parade" live on >MTV Europe - and as mentioned on this mailing list, MTV Europe >broadcasts techno videos all the time. > >There is some techno everywhere on USA TV and radio, except in *music* >programming. EG the "Showbiz Today" program on CNN uses entirely >techno music for their lead-ins, and even the Rush Limbaugh radio show >uses plenty of house and techno for their lead-ins (called "bumps" in >the radio business). > >So, MTV is clearly afraid of something with regards to techno. At the >silly Woodstock '94 festival, MTV went out of their way to make fun of >ravers who were there to catch The Orb. No other festival goers were >made fun of. > >This is why the AMP program is so surprising. > >And is probably why it is only being shown at 3 a.m. ... > > >Cheers, > >Ken <*> >kstuart@mail.telis.org > >My favorite CD for 1996 so far = Orbital - "In Sides"

A couple of things are going on here. First is the ongoing conspiracy on the part of the music business to destroy any form of popular music that doesn't include guitars and vocals. A couple of possible reasons: rock'n'roll is much more expensive to produce, and requires such things as dedicated recording facilities, studio musicians and extended recording schedules, with the resultant exorbitant studio and rental fees. The industry doesn't want to let go of the power they wield from being the only ones able to summon up that kind of cash flow. Techno is being produced by kids in their bedrooms, and that scares the shit out the established industry. The same thing is apparent with the lack of vocals: the publishing industry doesn't know how to handle instrumental material, and is not happy when an instrumental song somehow slips through to mainstream acceptance. How does a publishing company control cover versions of a song that doesn't have any lyrics (which are a large factor in securing a strong copyright on a song.) The second factor is, at least in the US, a lingering fear of being stamped as somehow less masculine by abandoning all those phallic symbols that are built into rock'n'roll. The disco era, when industry people were forced to rub shoulders with honest-to-god homosexuals, is still casting a long shadow. The prospect of again having to deal with a nation of people waving their hands in the air and shaking their butts to the boogie beat frankly scares this incredibly homophobic industry. Think about it: who are the only dance-oriented bands that have mainstream success, outside of the ghettoized gay, club or minority markets? Bands (and never solo artists) who dabble in techno, but maintain the forms that keep the industry comfortable (a cute female lead singer, guitars, expensive studio freaks controlling the creative output.) OK, enough rambling. I've been thinking about this a lot, so I'd love some feedback... [Home is where the stereo is] Finally back from his sojourn in the great North, [--------] [--] [--] [--] [--] [--] [--] [--] [--] [--] [--] [--] [--] [--] [--] [--] [--] [--------] [--------] [--] [--] [--] [--] [--] [--] [--] [--] [--] [--] [--] [--] [---] [---] [--] [---] [---------] can usually be found at one of the following places: aciddrop@earthlink.net aciddrop@aol.com [actually, don't try this one, I'm never there]

quoted 3 lines The second factor is, at least in the US, a lingering fear of being stamped

>The second factor is, at least in the US, a lingering fear of being stamped >as somehow less masculine by abandoning all those phallic symbols that are >built into rock'n'roll.

Good call. In addition, there is a definite anti-intellectual strain in the American music industry. Marketing in the U.S. assumes the audience wants to be placated, not challenged. I suspect that this is an underestimation, and that more people would be interested in "intelligent" music if there were greater opportunity for exposure to said music. Perhaps that's optimistic. Another problem is that instrumental music generally does not fare well in the U.S. (nor does non-English-language music, a bit of a pet rock of mine). Probably again seems too abstract and intellectual to be marketable? Yes, and the association with computers and electronics still gives that madscientist / sociallyineptintellectual vibe to the uninitiated. Now I'll go out on a limb and saw it off: I do think that this country (the U.S.) has little respect for - or even tolerance of - intelligence and education. These characteristics are all too often treated with suspicion and derision, assumed to be elitism, affectation, or tools of deception. At best, they are tolerated as a means to an end, but are rarely valued in and of themselves. Zenon M. Feszczak Philosophist

On Sep 11, 2:20am, Ken Stuart wrote:

quoted 2 lines There is some techno everywhere on USA TV and radio, except in *music*

> There is some techno everywhere on USA TV and radio, except in *music* > programming.

...

quoted 1 line So, MTV is clearly afraid of something with regards to techno.

> So, MTV is clearly afraid of something with regards to techno.

I don't think MTV is affraid of anything, other than loosing money/market share (the market that MTV cares about is the advert market). (Businness people fear no evil greater than red ink!) The videos we saw in AMP were art, not entertainment; MTV is entertainment programming, not art programming. MTV's viewers so far have not shown an interest in art -- they are not interested in being challenged by their MTV, they want to vege to their MTV! Like any other business entity, MTV's success depends on the happiness of their clients: if the viewers aren't happy, the advertisers aren't happy, and MTV looses money (and when MTV looses money, Viacom isn't happy, and heads roll). This equation also works in reverse! So the lack of mainstream airplay for IDM is caused (IMHO, of course) more by the general apathy to art than by any fear of change. Way back when MTV started, there was no Rap. Now, MTV probably plays nearly 50% Rap. MTV is not affraid to change to meet viewer demand. In effect, much as the MTV "VJ"'s would like us to believe otherwise, MTV is more a mirror of pop culture, than a driver of pop culture. Unfortunately, (most/many) people today do not have any interest in art -- they want 500 channels of entertainment 24 hours a day, with no demands on thinking greater than "if it's an advert, then change the channel". This is exactly what I find so awesome about IDM, though: IDM is a move back towards music as art. I'm a long-time fan of classical music (except opera -- just don't like it), and I recently blew a number of people away by playing a few IDM cuts: the similarities are stunning. IDM is taking music back from the entertainers, and giving it back to the thinkers! Think I'll stop ranting now... -frank

Hello, On Wed, 11 Sep 1996 09:27:31 -0400, "Frank Deutschmann" <fdeutsch@bfm.com> wrote:

quoted 5 lines On Sep 11, 2:20am, Ken Stuart wrote:

>On Sep 11, 2:20am, Ken Stuart wrote: >> There is some techno everywhere on USA TV and radio, except in *music* >> programming. >... >> So, MTV is clearly afraid of something with regards to techno.

quoted 6 lines So the lack of mainstream airplay for IDM is caused (IMHO, of course) more by

>So the lack of mainstream airplay for IDM is caused (IMHO, of course) more by >the general apathy to art than by any fear of change. Way back when MTV >started, there was no Rap. Now, MTV probably plays nearly 50% Rap. MTV is not >affraid to change to meet viewer demand. In effect, much as the MTV "VJ"'s >would like us to believe otherwise, MTV is more a mirror of pop culture, than a >driver of pop culture.

The problem with this argument is that I was referring to techno, not IDM. The Orb had a #1 album in the U.K. only a few years ago, so clearly techno music can be successful in the mainstream. The vocals/no_vocals argument seemed highly plausible - except that MTV doesn't show Real McCoys videos or 2 Unlimited videos in the USA. That seems to me to indicate that it is a conscious decision. Cheers, Ken <*> kstuart@mail.telis.org

quoted 4 lines OK, enough rambling. I've been thinking about this a lot, so I'd love

> >OK, enough rambling. I've been thinking about this a lot, so I'd love >some >feedback...

how about this...electronic music and its associated cultures(i.e. "rave" culture) is to the 90s what punk music and its associated cultures was to the 70s. of course rave culture isn't nearly as scary and strange as punk culture...oh whoops...that whole PLUR thing is pretty anti american ummm....boy newtie and his boys wouldn't go for that...or for people dancing themselves into a trancelike ecstasy..with or without the use of illegal drugs...hmmm....i could go on...but the truth is that mtv being a corporate entity would not profit rfrom people thinking for themselves....of course, my personal view is that we should all suck the corporate entities dry ...consume! consume! then we can feed on their bloated carcasses...mwah ha ha!!!

Hello, On Wed, 11 Sep 1996 23:06:01 PST, cap-nshiny@juno.com (Ethan R Masterson) wrote:

quoted 3 lines of course rave culture isn't nearly as scary and strange as

> of course rave culture isn't nearly as scary and strange as >punk culture...oh whoops...that whole PLUR thing is pretty anti american >ummm....boy newtie and his boys wouldn't go for that...

Sounds like you've swallowed whole the ABC News version of Newt. He admits "inhaling" in the 70's when he was a professor of environmental studies, and first ran for Congress on a "Green" platform. And, in fact, he's still a friend of environmental interests, among other things. Cheers, Ken <*> kstuart@mail.telis.org "... 99% of what people know was imparted from descriptions other people have given them..." - David A.Lindauer

On Thu, 12 Sep 1996, Ken Stuart wrote:

quoted 6 lines Sounds like you've swallowed whole the ABC News version of Newt.

> Sounds like you've swallowed whole the ABC News version of Newt. > > He admits "inhaling" in the 70's when he was a professor of > environmental studies, and first ran for Congress on a "Green" > platform. And, in fact, he's still a friend of environmental > interests, among other things.

Number of U.S. Representatives cited as "environmental zeros" last year by the league of conservation voters: 111 Number of these appointed by Newt Gingrich last spring to his 85-seat Task Force on the Environment: 39 -- Harper's Index, Sept. '96 OB-idm: How come everyone seems to expect that Coldcut/DJ Food spinning records will sound like the JDJ CD? I mean, it doesn't say "live" in the liner notes for a reason. What does everyone think about DJs who make their name with overdubbed studio mixes (or pure computer mixes) rather than live turntablism? JM

Hello, On Thu, 12 Sep 1996 11:23:31 -0700 (PDT), "J. Martin" <jgmartin@u.washington.edu> wrote:

quoted 16 lines On Thu, 12 Sep 1996, Ken Stuart wrote:

>On Thu, 12 Sep 1996, Ken Stuart wrote: > >> Sounds like you've swallowed whole the ABC News version of Newt. >> >> He admits "inhaling" in the 70's when he was a professor of >> environmental studies, and first ran for Congress on a "Green" >> platform. And, in fact, he's still a friend of environmental >> interests, among other things. > > Number of U.S. Representatives cited as "environmental zeros" >last year by the league of conservation voters: 111 > > Number of these appointed by Newt Gingrich last spring to his >85-seat Task Force on the Environment: 39 > > -- Harper's Index, Sept. '96

Which means that, despite pressures on him by his party, less than a majority were "environmental zeroes". "Gonzi Merchan (Fresh)" <fresh@linkonline.net> wrote:

quoted 1 line Errrr....like tobacco companies, the NRA, and the Christian Coalition?

>Errrr....like tobacco companies, the NRA, and the Christian Coalition?

The last time I looked, those groups were neither environmental groups, nor anti-environmental groups. Newt has made some enemies on the far right, due to his continued support for environmentalism (cf Human Events April 12, 1996 article entitled "Gingrich's Green Record Concerns Conservatives: Environmental Radical May Have Friend in Speaker"). I'll just leave it as an exercise to the reader to do some reading, rather than to accept what they hear on TV, or read in the latest progressive activist newsletter. Having posting the reference, further discussion should go to e-mail or the appropriate newsgroups.... Cheers, Ken <*> kstuart@mail.telis.org "... 99% of what people know was imparted from descriptions other people have given them..." - David A.Lindauer