IDM Mailing Archive

At 12:11 15/11/95 -0800, fms@scp.caltech.edu wrote:

quoted 1 line Correct me if I'm wrong (I know you will :)

>Correct me if I'm wrong (I know you will :)

It's just opinions...

quoted 3 lines A related question is whether innovation is necessary for intelligence.

>A related question is whether innovation is necessary for intelligence. >Can't a well executed peice of music be enjoyable, fresh, danceable, >and listenable without actually being innovative? ^^^^^

You're contradicting yourself - can something be 'fresh' without being 'innovative' in some way? Enjoyable, yes. Danceable, yes. Listenable, yes.

quoted 3 lines Also, while I'm on my soap box, I don't think an entire genre of

>Also, while I'm on my soap box, I don't think an entire genre of >music can be innovative (pseudo genres like "innovative music" and >"idm" notwithstanding).

What about jungle then? I'd mark out that 'genre' as innovative. || [CiM] || s.walley@uea.ac.uk || http://www.sys.uea.ac.uk/~u9323899/

quoted 3 lines Also, while I'm on my soap box, I don't think an entire genre of

>>Also, while I'm on my soap box, I don't think an entire genre of >>music can be innovative (pseudo genres like "innovative music" and >>"idm" notwithstanding).

quoted 1 line What about jungle then? I'd mark out that 'genre' as innovative.

>What about jungle then? I'd mark out that 'genre' as innovative.

So, you are saying every musician who is turning out 'Jungle' is innovative? How do you decide whether a musician is turning out 'Jungle'? If I label my CD as 'Jungle' and get it put in the 'Jungle' section at Tower am I innovative? These are the sorts of questions which lead to my statement. It's too hard to define the boundaries of a genre. So, I think it's silly to define a genre as innovative (unless you play lingquistic games as above). [fletcher]

A clarification... I don't mean to jump on any particular genre. Indeed, that is the very behavior which I think is silly! I think genre names are useful solely as broad classifications of music. They serve as place cards in your local underground vinyl shop. They serve as a quick way to tell someone what the basic feel of a track is. I think that we will find 'intelligent' and 'unintelligent' dance music in each of the dance genres. I personally find that my favorite groups, and the groups I tend to consider the most innovative, actually cross genre boundaries. They unite disparate elements from different musical frameworks into one glorious whole. So, I think we should talk about groups rather than genres! I do not that think that underground equals innovative or mainstream equals boring. Your mileage may vary. [fletcher] - [please check accompanying instructions before using this test bay - the o r b]

quoted 7 lines At 12:11 15/11/95 -0800, fms@scp.caltech.edu wrote:

>At 12:11 15/11/95 -0800, fms@scp.caltech.edu wrote: > >>Also, while I'm on my soap box, I don't think an entire genre of >>music can be innovative (pseudo genres like "innovative music" and >>"idm" notwithstanding). > >What about jungle then? I'd mark out that 'genre' as innovative.

well it WAS. snow

On Sat, 18 Nov 1995, Eylon I wrote:

quoted 12 lines At 12:11 15/11/95 -0800, fms@scp.caltech.edu wrote:

> >At 12:11 15/11/95 -0800, fms@scp.caltech.edu wrote: > > > >>Also, while I'm on my soap box, I don't think an entire genre of > >>music can be innovative (pseudo genres like "innovative music" and > >>"idm" notwithstanding). > > > >What about jungle then? I'd mark out that 'genre' as innovative. > > well it WAS. > > snow >

and Rap?

On Fri, 17 Nov 1995, Moran wrote:

quoted 15 lines On Sat, 18 Nov 1995, Eylon I wrote:

> > > On Sat, 18 Nov 1995, Eylon I wrote: > > > >At 12:11 15/11/95 -0800, fms@scp.caltech.edu wrote: > > > > > >>Also, while I'm on my soap box, I don't think an entire genre of > > >>music can be innovative (pseudo genres like "innovative music" and > > >>"idm" notwithstanding). > > > > > >What about jungle then? I'd mark out that 'genre' as innovative. > > > > well it WAS. > > > and Rap?

Almost every new genre was innovative as it started, blending things not blended before and giving sounds a new aroma. Keeping that aroma or enhancing it is the problem. snow

quoted 3 lines Almost every new genre was innovative as it started, blending things

>Almost every new genre was innovative as it started, blending things >not blended before and giving sounds a new aroma. Keeping that aroma >or enhancing it is the problem.

Genres are only created when a number of musical groups or albums are retroactively placed under a unifying moniker. The creation of a genre is a sign of stagnation. An eddy in the forward flow of music. This is not a bad thing, for in these vortices of genre specific work there is both forward and backward motion. Genre specific works can churn up new ideas and it is out of these eddies that new innovative works eventually spring. Now, if you want to start a movement and write a manifesto, that's a whole different story. You cannot 'start' a genre. Though it can be seen in retrospect that you were the start of a genre. So, since we can only look back on genres, if you can place a new album in a genre then it is not substantially innovative. If you have a hard time placing it in a genre then it may be innovative. I should bracket all this with a small clarification that I am talking about subgenres of techno music. The genre of techno itself is in a much larger framework. So by genre I mean ambient house, goa, electro, etc. [fletcher]

quoted 14 lines Also, while I'm on my soap box, I don't think an entire genre of

> > > >>Also, while I'm on my soap box, I don't think an entire genre of > > > >>music can be innovative (pseudo genres like "innovative music" and > > > >>"idm" notwithstanding). > > > > > > > >What about jungle then? I'd mark out that 'genre' as innovative. > > > > > > well it WAS. > > > > > and Rap? > > Almost every new genre was innovative as it started, blending things > not blended before and giving sounds a new aroma. Keeping that aroma > or enhancing it is the problem. >

Yeah... I am disappointed with most rap artists now a days.. There just is not the innovation. I used to be heavily into rap.. but the exploration just ceased to be there density wise.. so it made me open to ambient.. I just hope there is no end to innovation.. I suppose innovation is merely due to context.. then I guess I should not be scared.. M

On Tue, 21 Nov 1995, Moran wrote:

quoted 4 lines Yeah... I am disappointed with most rap artists now a days.. There just

> > Yeah... I am disappointed with most rap artists now a days.. There just > is not the innovation. I used to be heavily into rap.. but the > exploration just ceased to be there density wise..

I think the rap scene has become slow to innovate the last couple of years. _Fear of a Black Planet_ in spots had reached maximum density. Everyone including Public Enemy pulled back density-wise. It seems to me what's been happening the last couple of years, first, is the more explicit integration of the stripped-down 70's funk sound, as in Dr. Dre productions. I think Paris did a far better job on _Guerilla Funk_ even if it might suggest a bit of bandwagon-jumping. Especially in light of his excellent _The Devil Made Me Do It_ (90?) and _Sleeping With the Enemy_ (92?) which are thick and dark sample-collage ala Bomb Squad but with his own clear identity. Two other notable arists are Cypress Hill and Wu Tang Clan. Cypress Hill, for better or worse, are responsible for the whole blunt/cheeba thing far as I can tell. Muggs' production is stripped down, solidly in control of atmosphere. It's not just about how complex the rhythms are. I think the scene went back to the original idea about rhythm and poetry, and ended up going back to the old-school beats but changing the kind of samples and sounds used on top. That's where Wu Tang Clan come in. There's the debut _Enter the Wu-Tang (36 Chambers)_. Very stripped down but surprising samples, unbelievable funk and an atmosphere you can truly feel. Method Man, Ol' Dirty Bastard, Raekwon and Genius/GZA have solo albums out. Method Man's is pretty tight and wigged. Ol' Dirty Bastard's includes various interludes and spoken segments, samples from all over, leans toward the comic. Raekwon's is tough, wise, smart and way funky. Genius/GZA's is probably the darkest but ultimately full of hope. Public Enemy's output has been disappointing the last few years. A Tribe Called Quest took a step backwards on their last release. Naughty by Nature were never the innovators but they've become completely uninspired. Dr. Dre and Snoop Doggy Dogg, sorry to say, are in business to sell themselves to a wide (white) audience as some kind of gun-totin' bitch-slappin' n***as, which frankly insults my intelligence. (I'm white if you think it matters.) But hip-hop (along with techno) is really the mining ground for the future of pop and dance music, even if the scene is a little slow at the moment. --Mark Kolmar

quoted 2 lines A Tribe

> A Tribe > Called Quest took a step backwards on their last release.

Dead wrong my brother.. I think Tribe have done the Miles scene better than anyone else. Aside from that though, the most underated producer (I don't want to categorize but..) in rap is Ali Shaheem Muhammed (spelling is my fortee).. The man produces innovatively on the same lines as the "innovators" you've discussed.. If Muggs is an innovator, Shaheem definitely is an innovator on Midnight Murauders. I have not heard any body rip off tribe yet.. either people can't, or they just don't want to.. either way, I think it is a testament to tribes innovation..

quoted 2 lines Naughty by

> Naughty by > Nature were never the innovators but they've become completely uninspired.

Naughty By Nature? What are we talking about again.. I thought we were in the context of intelligent music.

quoted 3 lines Dr. Dre and Snoop Doggy Dogg, sorry to say, are in business to sell

> Dr. Dre and Snoop Doggy Dogg, sorry to say, are in business to sell > themselves to a wide (white) audience as some kind of gun-totin' > bitch-slappin' n***as, which frankly insults my intelligence.

I don't think you should value musical innovation by the artists' intention. It is not clear to me how to value art, but even if Dre meant to rip off the whole fucking world with no intention to innovate, why should his creation fall because of it. As well, "gun totin niggas" is just what it is pegged within the context of white discourse over music.. Words in one context are obviously different in another.. Judging "gun tottin" must be judged in its own context.. And unless I've been asleep for the last 15 yrs, rap has definitely developed its own language.. "You down with MBD? yeah you know me!!" Fuck man, I can rap better than Naughty By Nature.. Ciao, and there just ain't enough talk of rap in this forum.. Rap is intelligence dance music or at least a superset of idm.. Good discussion.. M

On Thu, 23 Nov 1995, Moran wrote:

quoted 4 lines A Tribe

> > A Tribe > > Called Quest took a step backwards on their last release. > > Dead wrong my brother..

Please read on...

quoted 2 lines I think Tribe have done the Miles scene better

> I think Tribe have done the Miles scene better > than anyone else.

I agree. Their first two albums are innovative and great. However, I thought that on _Midnight Marauders_ they traded in part of their sound for something more conventional and less distinctive.

quoted 2 lines I have not heard any

> I have not heard any > body rip off tribe yet..

I guess you must have missed Digable Planets...

quoted 3 lines Dr. Dre and Snoop Doggy Dogg, sorry to say, are in business to sell

> > Dr. Dre and Snoop Doggy Dogg, sorry to say, are in business to sell > > themselves to a wide (white) audience as some kind of gun-totin' > > bitch-slappin' n***as, which frankly insults my intelligence.

[...]

quoted 5 lines As well, "gun totin niggas" is just what it is pegged within the context

> As well, "gun totin niggas" is just what it is pegged within the context > of white discourse over music.. Words in one context are obviously > different in another.. Judging "gun tottin" must be judged in its own > context.. And unless I've been asleep for the last 15 yrs, rap has > definitely developed its own language..

To expand on what I said -- or was trying to say: What offends me about Dr. Dre, Snoop Doggy Dogg and post-Ice-Cube NWA, is that from what I can see they take the ignorant, pervasive stereotypes about African- Americans, turn them into a big cartoon and sell them back to white America. Face it--you don't get those kinds of sales figures unless you reach a market outside the hip-hop scene. _EFIL4ZAGGIN_, for example, is deeply offensive to me because it may -appear- that the sales reflect white America embracing black culture, but I think it actually reinforces prejudice and stereotypes. Dre may be making some money, and even making some decent music, but at what cost? On the other hand I see no such problem with Public Enemy, Cypress Hill and others who have reached a mass audience. --Mark Kolmar