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Re: (idm) Got Knowledge?

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◇ merged from 2 subjects: (idm) got knowledge? · (idm) silk saw (was re: got knowledge?)
1999-08-24 13:23Jason J. Tar (idm) Got Knowledge?
├─ 1999-08-24 15:19n:h Re: (idm) Got Knowledge?
│ └─ 1999-08-24 16:55eric hill Re: (idm) Got Knowledge?
│ └─ 1999-08-24 17:27n:h Re: (idm) Got Knowledge?
│ └─ 1999-08-24 17:38eric hill Re: (idm) Got Knowledge?
└─ 1999-08-24 16:32brian r. Re: (idm) Got Knowledge?
1999-08-24 14:52david turgeon Re: (idm) Got Knowledge?
└─ 1999-08-24 15:51daniel Re: (idm) Got Knowledge?
1999-08-24 15:59idm Re: (idm) Got Knowledge?
1999-08-24 16:54Matthew Allen RE: (idm) Got Knowledge?
└─ 1999-08-24 19:11daniel (idm) Silk Saw (Was RE: Got Knowledge?)
1999-08-24 17:53david turgeon Re: (idm) Got Knowledge?
└─ 1999-08-24 19:21eric hill Re: (idm) Got Knowledge?
1999-08-24 19:46Z Moser Re: (idm) Got Knowledge?
1999-08-24 20:47david turgeon Re: (idm) Got Knowledge?
1999-08-24 21:01Re: (idm) Got Knowledge?
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1999-08-24 13:23Jason J. Tar>wake up on the wrong side of the turntable? No, just wondering what the point of this lis
From:
Jason J. Tar
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Tue, 24 Aug 1999 09:23:38 -0400
Subject:
(idm) Got Knowledge?
permalink · <3.0.1.32.19990824092338.006f0b14@pilot.msu.edu>
quoted 1 line wake up on the wrong side of the turntable?>wake up on the wrong side of the turntable?
No, just wondering what the point of this list is if people are gonna be greedy with their info.
quoted 2 lines without magazines like grooves (and e.x.p), the electronic music we listen>without magazines like grooves (and e.x.p), the electronic music we listen >to would not get exposure (especially in the states).
Maybe I'm just cynical, but I doubt small zines really add that much exposure. (Though I guess if we stopped spreading info via word of mouth and simply said "Have a question...BUY the mag!", then maybe.) More like "Preaching to the converted".
quoted 1 line The idm list does not compromise the buying public. For two dollars and>The idm list does not compromise the buying public. For two dollars and
fifty cents you can
quoted 1 line get the mag. That is hardly money grubbing.>get the mag. That is hardly money grubbing.
Or for free, I could get the info via the list. My point wasn't to slag the zine. My point was that it is rather pathetic that someone's question gets answered with "The answer to your question is here...buy it!", instead of simply answering the question. Does everything have to be an advertisement?
quoted 1 line Support indies (in all art forms) or start listening to something else...>Support indies (in all art forms) or start listening to something else...
Again being cynical, but most indies are simply money grubbing bastards as well. Screw the labels, screw the magazines, screw all those riding on the backs of the artists. Support the people making the sounds and help those looking to find good sounds, and then things will be all right. JJTar. --- Peace Hugs and Unity Jason J. Tar W. W. J. D? (What would Jason Do?) http://www.msu.edu/user/tarjason ICQ@13792120
1999-08-24 15:19n:hOn Tue, 24 Aug 1999, Jason J. Tar wrote: > >wake up on the wrong side of the turntable? >
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n:h
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Jason J. Tar
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Date:
Tue, 24 Aug 1999 11:19:43 -0400 (EDT)
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Re: (idm) Got Knowledge?
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(idm) Got Knowledge?
permalink · <Pine.MAC.4.10.9908241058300.3363-100000@toshoklabs.com>
On Tue, 24 Aug 1999, Jason J. Tar wrote:
quoted 4 lines wake up on the wrong side of the turntable?> >wake up on the wrong side of the turntable? > > No, just wondering what the point of this list is if people are gonna be > greedy with their info.
hmmm I don't get the greedy part. I see Grooves as only helping to spread info. I agree that perhaps someone could have explained on IDM what the deal with Funkstorung was instead if simply saying 'buy the mag', I guess this is what I tried to do, but still...
quoted 9 lines without magazines like grooves (and e.x.p), the electronic music we listen> > >without magazines like grooves (and e.x.p), the electronic music we listen > >to would not get exposure (especially in the states). > > Maybe I'm just cynical, but I doubt small zines really add that much > exposure. (Though I guess if we stopped spreading info via word of mouth > and simply said "Have a question...BUY the mag!", then maybe.) More like > "Preaching to the converted". >
I think small zines like Grooves add a good degree of exposure. I know plenty of people who are not on IDM who don't keep up with the Jones' but instead rely on things like small mags for checking new stuff out. I have had quite a few poeple compliment my article who are not on IDM and that gave me a warm fuzzy:) You are partially right in 'preaching to the coverted'. There's a lot of stuff in the mags (Grooves in particular) that I already knew, but then again there quite a bit of stuff I don't know too much about that I learned. And I don't mean to keep stressing this, but I think a lot of people take for granted the amount of info that passes though this list. This list is great for keeping up with obscure stuff, especially with people like Lance, Greg, Pietro, Andrew Duke, (too many to list all). But if you are not web savvy/whatever and are not on IDM how do you learn about these things. A friend of mine runs a local IDM shop here and is very knowledgable but still I know about things he has not heard of- he gets some of his info through mags like Grooves...
quoted 10 lines The idm list does not compromise the buying public. For two dollars and> > >The idm list does not compromise the buying public. For two dollars and > fifty cents you can > >get the mag. That is hardly money grubbing. > > Or for free, I could get the info via the list. > My point wasn't to slag the zine. My point was that it is rather pathetic > that someone's question gets answered with "The answer to your question is > here...buy it!", instead of simply answering the question. Does everything > have to be an advertisement?
that's a fair point...
quoted 8 lines Support indies (in all art forms) or start listening to something else...> > >Support indies (in all art forms) or start listening to something else... > > Again being cynical, but most indies are simply money grubbing bastards as > well. Screw the labels, screw the magazines, screw all those riding on the > backs of the artists. Support the people making the sounds and help those > looking to find good sounds, and then things will be all right. >
it just doesn't work that way...I wish it did but that to me sounds like some utopian netherworld. I've met Sean I woundn't put him in the 'money grubbing bastards' category. In fact I can only see him in the group of people 'helping those to find good sounds'...I think Sean or anyone doing something for this small scene is smart enough to know that if they want to become money grubbing bastards starting some IDM zine is not exactly going to take them from rags to riches:) just my .02 Nate
quoted 9 lines JJTar.> JJTar. > > --- > Peace Hugs and Unity Jason J. Tar > W. W. J. D? > (What would Jason Do?) > http://www.msu.edu/user/tarjason > ICQ@13792120 >
1999-08-24 16:55eric hill>list all). But if you are not web savvy/whatever and are not on IDM how do >you learn abo
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eric hill
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Tue, 24 Aug 1999 09:55:29 -0700 (PDT)
Subject:
Re: (idm) Got Knowledge?
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Re: (idm) Got Knowledge?
permalink · <Pine.BSF.4.10.9908240946200.9197-100000@shell3.ba.best.com>
quoted 2 lines list all). But if you are not web savvy/whatever and are not on IDM how do>list all). But if you are not web savvy/whatever and are not on IDM how do >you learn about these things.
...
quoted 5 lines In fact I can only see him in the group of>In fact I can only see him in the group of >people 'helping those to find good sounds'...I think Sean or anyone doing >something for this small scene is smart enough to know that if they want >to become money grubbing bastards starting some IDM zine is not exactly >going to take them from rags to riches:)
i'm sorry, i missed the part where we assumed that widening the audience is an automatic improvement. can anybody provide any examples of art (or music, say, to keep it relatively ontopic) scenes that became more vital and creative once the general public started paying attention? eric
1999-08-24 17:27n:hI'm sorry I don't equate those email-less electronic heads as being equal to the 'general
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n:h
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eric hill
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Date:
Tue, 24 Aug 1999 13:27:28 -0400 (EDT)
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Re: (idm) Got Knowledge?
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Re: (idm) Got Knowledge?
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I'm sorry I don't equate those email-less electronic heads as being equal to the 'general public'. Nate On Tue, 24 Aug 1999, eric hill wrote:
quoted 18 lines list all). But if you are not web savvy/whatever and are not on IDM how do> >list all). But if you are not web savvy/whatever and are not on IDM how do > >you learn about these things. > ... > >In fact I can only see him in the group of > >people 'helping those to find good sounds'...I think Sean or anyone doing > >something for this small scene is smart enough to know that if they want > >to become money grubbing bastards starting some IDM zine is not exactly > >going to take them from rags to riches:) > > i'm sorry, i missed the part where we assumed that widening the audience > is an automatic improvement. can anybody provide any examples of art (or > music, say, to keep it relatively ontopic) scenes that became more vital > and creative once the general public started paying attention? > > eric > > >
1999-08-24 17:38eric hillokay, how about "a more generalized public that doesn't have access to the primary outlets
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eric hill
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Tue, 24 Aug 1999 10:38:28 -0700 (PDT)
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Re: (idm) Got Knowledge?
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Re: (idm) Got Knowledge?
permalink · <Pine.BSF.4.10.9908241036050.9197-100000@shell3.ba.best.com>
okay, how about "a more generalized public that doesn't have access to the primary outlets of information." eric On Tue, 24 Aug 1999, n:h wrote:
quoted 29 lines I'm sorry I don't equate those email-less electronic heads as> >I'm sorry I don't equate those email-less electronic heads as >being equal to the 'general public'. > >Nate > > >On Tue, 24 Aug 1999, eric hill wrote: > >> >list all). But if you are not web savvy/whatever and are not on IDM how do >> >you learn about these things. >> ... >> >In fact I can only see him in the group of >> >people 'helping those to find good sounds'...I think Sean or anyone doing >> >something for this small scene is smart enough to know that if they want >> >to become money grubbing bastards starting some IDM zine is not exactly >> >going to take them from rags to riches:) >> >> i'm sorry, i missed the part where we assumed that widening the audience >> is an automatic improvement. can anybody provide any examples of art (or >> music, say, to keep it relatively ontopic) scenes that became more vital >> and creative once the general public started paying attention? >> >> eric >> >> >> > >
1999-08-24 16:32brian r.interesting topic... 1) the funkstorung issue with skam has been repeated on this list sev
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brian r.
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Tue, 24 Aug 1999 09:32:08 -0700 (PDT)
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Re: (idm) Got Knowledge?
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(idm) Got Knowledge?
permalink · <Pine.SUN.4.05.9908240922170.15694-100000@coyote.rain.org>
interesting topic... 1) the funkstorung issue with skam has been repeated on this list several times, if you want the info, seach the archives. 2) we are not making grooves for the people on the idm list. although there is a lot of info, reviews etc that would appeal to people on this list. we make grooves to (hopefully) share something that we enjoy with others who have little or no knowledge about the music. that is why we have grooves in tower records stores around the globe, that is why we have grooves in little mom and pop stores everywhere and that is why we bring copies of our zine to shows, events etc so that we can show them to/give them to people that seem interested. 3) greedy? do you think that we make one cent from this thing? none of the contributors, photogroaphers, designers, etc, make anything from this zine. sean, our editor, is shelling out a lot of money to put this together. we aim to break even, not to get rich. word. .. brian rachielles http://www.rain.org/~audio http://www.mp3.com/~pointb audio/kcsb, grooves, 11hz
1999-08-24 14:52david turgeon> No, just wondering what the point of this list is if people are gonna be > greedy with t
From:
david turgeon
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Jason J. Tar
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Date:
Tue, 24 Aug 1999 10:52:46 -0400
Subject:
Re: (idm) Got Knowledge?
permalink · <37C2B1BE.C9E4A6B6@evolutiontech.com>
quoted 2 lines No, just wondering what the point of this list is if people are gonna be> No, just wondering what the point of this list is if people are gonna be > greedy with their info.
not to diss, but 2 people out of 3 answered your question. the other one told you to read the magazine -- darn, bummer. what are you still complaining about? -- david
1999-08-24 15:51danielI was the one who said buy the mag. Shame on me. I said that because: 1. I am lazy 2. the
From:
daniel
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Tue, 24 Aug 1999 10:51:43 -0500 (CDT)
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Re: (idm) Got Knowledge?
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Re: (idm) Got Knowledge?
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I was the one who said buy the mag. Shame on me. I said that because: 1. I am lazy 2. the interview conveys much more that I could in a few words. In fact I probably would have given the wrong impression. If I had known about the web page I would have directed them there. is directing someone to a web page an advertisement? (what if the person who runs the page gets money with every hit?) In fact, anytime someone reviews something or recommends something isn't that an advertisement? Someone says, hey I want ambient dub. Then someone says go buy Comp X. Those money grubbing bastards could have sent the person mp3s instead of telling them to buy the CD. Stingy with the information yet again... as for the utopian outlook of art for arts sake. No money is needed; peace love etc.. I have to say this: when you go to the grocery store to buy milk they won't give it to you because you wrote an opus... IDM tip of the day: Silk Saw - preparing wars (Ant-zen) : odd, disturbing and dark. Drum and bass (and I use that term in the loosest sense of the word possible) inspired electronic meanderings (full of sound and fury). Perfect when you don't want the sun to shine. -daniel Head Monkey Mad Monkey Records http://monkey.eliteware.com On Tue, 24 Aug 1999, david turgeon wrote:
quoted 11 lines No, just wondering what the point of this list is if people are gonna be> > > No, just wondering what the point of this list is if people are gonna be > > greedy with their info. > > not to diss, but 2 people out of 3 answered your question. the other > one told you to read the magazine -- darn, bummer. what are you still > complaining about? > > -- > david >
1999-08-24 15:59idmI'd imagine that this list contains a large population of the IDM music buyin public. What
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idm
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Tue, 24 Aug 1999 11:59:23 -0400
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Re: (idm) Got Knowledge?
permalink · <E11JJ2h-0007S4-00@relay20.smtp.psi.net>
I'd imagine that this list contains a large population of the IDM music buyin public. What's wrong with sportin $2.50 to read about releases that are potential purchases. Even more than that. When these IDM producers are heralded so greatly for their music, isn't it worth $2.50 to read interviews with them and maybe get some insight as to who they are and where they're coming from............Andy
1999-08-24 16:54Matthew Allen> Silk Saw - preparing wars (Ant-zen) : odd, disturbing and dark. Drum and > bass (and I u
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Matthew Allen
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Date:
Tue, 24 Aug 1999 09:54:30 -0700
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RE: (idm) Got Knowledge?
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quoted 4 lines Silk Saw - preparing wars (Ant-zen) : odd, disturbing and dark. Drum and> Silk Saw - preparing wars (Ant-zen) : odd, disturbing and dark. Drum and > bass (and I use that term in the loosest sense of the word possible) > inspired electronic meanderings (full of sound and fury). Perfect when you > don't want the sun to shine.
Nice. I've been trying to get people turned onto Come freely, Go safely. In my mind this is what Cabaret Voltaire would have sounded like if the kept making 'Voice of America' era tracks. These guys know how to create a mood. whacked out samples long drooning synth lines. and the occasional beat. fun stuff. I'll gp pull it out again. thanks m.
1999-08-24 19:11danielBeen meaning to check that Disc out. Do you know who carries it? I can never find it. Also
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daniel
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Tue, 24 Aug 1999 14:11:09 -0500 (CDT)
Subject:
(idm) Silk Saw (Was RE: Got Knowledge?)
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RE: (idm) Got Knowledge?
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Been meaning to check that Disc out. Do you know who carries it? I can never find it. Also, check out their mini-lp "this time it is war" on Hymen records. Best way I can describe it is: What skam could have evolved into. It is dark sinister, original, dense with very nice beats. One track on it is a little dodgy but the record still works. -daniel Head Monkey Mad Monkey Records http://monkey.eliteware.com On Tue, 24 Aug 1999, Matthew Allen wrote:
quoted 17 lines Silk Saw - preparing wars (Ant-zen) : odd, disturbing and dark. Drum and> > > Silk Saw - preparing wars (Ant-zen) : odd, disturbing and dark. Drum and > > bass (and I use that term in the loosest sense of the word possible) > > inspired electronic meanderings (full of sound and fury). Perfect when you > > don't want the sun to shine. > > > Nice. > I've been trying to get people turned onto Come freely, Go safely. In my > mind this is what Cabaret Voltaire would have sounded like if the kept > making 'Voice of America' era tracks. These guys know how to create a mood. > whacked out samples long drooning synth lines. and the occasional beat. fun > stuff. I'll gp pull it out again. > > thanks > m. >
1999-08-24 17:53david turgeon> i'm sorry, i missed the part where we assumed that widening the audience > is an automat
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david turgeon
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eric hill
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Date:
Tue, 24 Aug 1999 13:53:01 -0400
Subject:
Re: (idm) Got Knowledge?
permalink · <37C2DBFD.B0104443@evolutiontech.com>
quoted 4 lines i'm sorry, i missed the part where we assumed that widening the audience> i'm sorry, i missed the part where we assumed that widening the audience > is an automatic improvement. can anybody provide any examples of art (or > music, say, to keep it relatively ontopic) scenes that became more vital > and creative once the general public started paying attention?
i'm sure someone could provide you with a myriad of examples of highly creative musicians who abandoned because of the lack of attention, though. in the litterary field, i know of one dramatic example: the american writer john kennedy toole, who killed himself after being unable to get his (excellent, btw) novel 'a confederacy of dunces' published -- the same book ended up awarding him a posthumous pulitzer. there's also a second point. you presume that attention _necessarily_ hinders creativity, but there's no link between the two, except perhaps indirectly. sure, a highly creative musician may get his face on the wire's front page & might turn into a brat overnight, but have you noticed that the wire isn't grooves or e.x.p. (or motion)? the difference isn't so much with the amount of attention said artist gets, but rather in how it's used. if you make the front page of the wire, then your music is essentially being used to sell cars, cigarettes & alcohol. there will be actual commercial pressure for you to produce music that gains even more attention (rather than contenting yourself with the 'natural' attention you can get by pleasing a large amount of people with your music simply because it's good) so that you can sell more cars, cigarettes & alcohol (& 2.7% visa credit cards through the cdnow website) thus in the end watering down the product using proven methods (the titanic song is a great example of this paint-by-number trick, although celine dion clearly sold her soul to this game early on, i should know, we've been stuck with her in quebec since she's fucking 12.) this is of course done in hopes to reach a larger pool of buyers, regardless of initial creativity or general intent. but fortunately, media coverage isn't evil when done responsibly (this happens less & less often, which makes people utter statements like yours, thinking this is the 'normal state of affairs', whereas it's only happening because we're letting it happen, & because high-publication magazine editors are usually ethic-less, jaded idiots with dollar bills in their ears to cover the noise they're supposed to review.) btw, this isn't a diss, i just don't buy into the 'creativity must be starving' idea. </rant> -- david
1999-08-24 19:21eric hill>i'm sure someone could provide you with a myriad of examples of highly >creative musician
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eric hill
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Date:
Tue, 24 Aug 1999 12:21:34 -0700 (PDT)
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Re: (idm) Got Knowledge?
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Re: (idm) Got Knowledge?
permalink · <Pine.BSF.4.10.9908241106210.9197-100000@shell3.ba.best.com>
quoted 2 lines i'm sure someone could provide you with a myriad of examples of highly>i'm sure someone could provide you with a myriad of examples of highly >creative musicians who abandoned because of the lack of attention,
i have no problem with people giving up a creative outlet once they can't find a reason to participate in it. there is no value in being patronized by someone who is creative for only as long as they don't experience a "lack of attention."
quoted 1 line you presume that attention _necessarily_ hinders creativity,>you presume that attention _necessarily_ hinders creativity,
i presumed no such thing. i asked if a larger population improves the creative output of a scene.
quoted 1 line have you noticed that the wire isn't grooves or e.x.p. (or motion)?>have you noticed that the wire isn't grooves or e.x.p. (or motion)?
i guess that's why they have different names.
quoted 6 lines but fortunately, media coverage isn't evil when done responsibly (this>but fortunately, media coverage isn't evil when done responsibly (this >happens less & less often, which makes people utter statements like >yours, thinking this is the 'normal state of affairs', whereas it's only >happening because we're letting it happen, & because high-publication >magazine editors are usually ethic-less, jaded idiots with dollar bills >in their ears to cover the noise they're supposed to review.)
i mentioned neither media coverage, evil, nor "normal states of affairs," and so i'm having trouble determining from which of my two sentences you're inferring this. is it just a side effect of the obvious (but so-far unspoken) benefits of wider familiarity that we put up with the "ethicless (?), jaded idiots"? what are these benefits and how do they change things for the better?
quoted 1 line i just don't buy into the 'creativity must be starving' idea.>i just don't buy into the 'creativity must be starving' idea.
that makes two of us. why ever would you bring it up? eric
1999-08-24 19:46Z Moser>well. Screw the labels, screw the magazines, screw all those riding on the >backs of the
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Z Moser
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Date:
Tue, 24 Aug 1999 19:46:00 GMT
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Re: (idm) Got Knowledge?
permalink · <19990824194600.47310.qmail@hotmail.com>
quoted 4 lines well. Screw the labels, screw the magazines, screw all those riding on the>well. Screw the labels, screw the magazines, screw all those riding on the >backs of the artists. Support the people making the sounds and help those >looking to find good sounds, and then things will be all right. >
I gather From the way you talk that you must run around naked in the woods, and beat on leather skin drums for your music. Roach- The internet has become so widespread that some people start to take it for granted and think everyone is logged in. _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com
1999-08-24 20:47david turgeonyou said: 'i'm sorry, i missed the part where we assumed that widening the audience is an
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david turgeon
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eric hill
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Tue, 24 Aug 1999 16:47:37 -0400
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Re: (idm) Got Knowledge?
permalink · <37C304E9.21CC3D07@evolutiontech.com>
you said: 'i'm sorry, i missed the part where we assumed that widening the audience is an automatic improvement. can anybody provide any examples of art (or music, say, to keep it relatively ontopic) scenes that became more vital and creative once the general public started paying attention?' from this i can cull 2 questions: 1) 'is widening the audience an automatic improvement?' to that i must answer: no. it's not automatic. 2) 'does it ever happen that scenes become more vital once the audience is widened?' to that i have no answer. does it ever happen? i don't know, i'd be tempted to say yes, but as i have no proof, i decided to turn your question inside out: 'does it ever happen that scenes become less vital when the audience size stalls or is decreasing?' to that i answer: yes. i think it's an obvious one. but let's turn the whole problem around once again: 'nobody should be starving.' i also formulate the postulate that 'creativity doesn't need to starve'. you agree with that. how is creativity paid? typically, through record sales & gigs. how do you achieve record sales & gigs? through an audience. how do you make an audience in the first place? through media coverage in the largest sense. this includes mailing lists, web sites, word of mouth, mtv, magazines, newspapers, scribbles on a wall, need i add more? what are the benefits of media coverage, thus widening of audience, thus payment? more people know about you mean they're likely to be interested in looking into your music, i.e. buying it, i.e. providing you with an income so you may make more music. perhaps it may bring you offers to play gigs, which is also income. perhaps if you have money to pay the rent, you won't need to spend most of your daytime on another job. maybe with time you'll manage to spew out more interesting, thought-out music. you may be able to share ideas with other musicians, who also manage to receive an income from similar means. perhaps you'll even be so lucky as to find a way to start your own label to release albums by other artists who didn't yet get any attention? is this likely to help the scene? well, looks like it to me. is this an automatic improvement? still, no. how can we help making it a more likely (but still not automatic, although that'd be a pipe dream) improvement? i think it depends on how the coverage is done. coverage which allows more than one genre, one artist, one style, one thing, is usually opening its doors to artistic creativity. coverage which is limited, on the other hand, well, you know how it ends up being. as for the argument on jaded magazine execs, that's another point entirely, but essentially i'm saying that magazines which favor advertising will eventually favor a more short-term approach to music coverage, dismissing creativity as 'difficult' & using methods to produce something which should please to the lowest common denominator. the method is quite simple: rendering music bland so that you can barely notice it happening. pop composers know about the method & use it to great success. but that was simply a divergence on the original point. in other words: all i did was to expand on your original question. i honestly don't see what you don't like in my reasoning, especially if you agree with the fact that creative artists shouldn't be starving. the reason why they are is because no one knows about them. i can see (but i still can't understand) that a majority of people might be interested in one standardized genre of music -- that's one thing. but the commercial press certainly isn't helping the situation, especially when their goal is solely to sell more issues so that their advertisers can sell more of their products, to the detriment of actual musical research, which is what their goal should be. as representants of music, they must show the public a good picture of what music is. that's all. -- david
1999-08-24 21:01cspot@hyperreal.org>i'm sorry, i missed the part where we assumed that widening the audience >is an automatic
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To:
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Tue, 24 Aug 1999 14:01:46 -0700 (PDT)
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Re: (idm) Got Knowledge?
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quoted 4 lines i'm sorry, i missed the part where we assumed that widening the audience>i'm sorry, i missed the part where we assumed that widening the audience >is an automatic improvement. can anybody provide any examples of art (or >music, say, to keep it relatively ontopic) scenes that became more vital >and creative once the general public started paying attention?
IMO, "scenes" are almost definitionally not very vital and creative to begin with. Widespread exposure only puts that lack of creativity under a microscope. (The post-Nirvana feeding frenzy of six or seven years ago didn't ruin grunge, it just made it obvious how little of it had any merit to begin with.) That said, I can certainly name many musicians who've used the economic advantages inherent in mass appeal to benefit their art, the best example probably being Duke Ellington, who went from playing relativly simplistic dance music at the Cotton Club to creating longform thematic works for a worldwide audience. Come to think of it, big-band swing in general flourished creatively in the '30's and '40's, when its mass appeal was at its peak, and actually declined as a "scene" only when it became economically unfeasible to support so many touring musicians due to declining public interest. I don't know if Motown Records fits your definition of a "scene," but the creativity of their records increased by leaps and bounds as their popularity increased, peaking with records like "I Can't Give Back the Love I Feel for You," "I Heard it Through the Grapevine," and "I Wish it Would Rain" (compare these to early cuts like "Beechwood 4-5789" or "Shop Around") - not to mention What's Going On! C.