IDM Mailing Archive

Hi all first of all, I joined this mailing list very recently due to my interest in IDM and related styles - I am a producer myself, even though what I do has only marginally to do with IDM, it's actually clicky housey abstract jazz funk live electronic music. Anyway, I have been listening to a fair amount of IDM including all the 'big names' and when I got the latest Savath&Savalas album, Apropra't (which is very mellow and melodic, particularly when you set it against some of Squarepusher's more ferocious tunes, for instance), I started to think about an interesting question which I'm sure many of you have an answer/opinion for - and that is: How difficult to listen/noise-based/complicated/progressive does IDM have to be? Taking S&S as an example, there is some magnificent and also complex electronic elements in the background, so it's by no means "one-dimensional", and when you compare it to Mira Calix, for instance, it's very "easily" listenable. Mira seems to have a fair amount of abstract, dark elements in her music, and this I sometimes find too much despite the fact that I love complex, challenging music (jazz, m-base stuff, mr. bungle....). Sure, this is all a matter of taste you might say - and you're right -but I would still like to figure out where the Intelligent in the IDM name ends and where 'banal', for lack of a better word, starts. Probably a matter of personal opinion - but I would love to see what you people think about this phenomenon. Because, much as I respect Squarepusher and get inspiration from his music, it really is impossible to listen to sometimes - for me at least - due to the sheer 'stress factor'. OK, looking forward to your messages! Roland --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

quoted 2 lines How difficult to listen/noise-based/complicated/progressive does IDM

> How difficult to listen/noise-based/complicated/progressive does IDM > have to be?

There really isn't a straight answer. Yes? Some listeners and producers really like the super-chaotic noisy stuff. Others prefer laid back simple stuff that simply kicks ass. Is someone who likes the latest Autechre offering going to rush out and buy a new Freescha album? perhaps, but they're totally different ends of the spectrum that are equally enjoyed by different/the same people. IDM is simply dance music that isn't for the dance floor. Early AFX is still rockin' today and that's pretty straight up. As I said above, Freescha is doing some phenomenal stuff and they're really really stripped down. Some people even say that the I should stand for "indie" because it's really more about the artists doing what sounds good to them. So it doesn't have to be complex or weird or abstract at all. Some people prefer that; others don't. If it's *good*, people will like it, and you probably will too. Some people even see pointless complexity as a down-note, whereas few people fault a stripped-down song that's just totally solid. So, I suppose that's my answer. It's easier to screw up complex stuff and turn it into wankery. Stripped down stuff is based solely on what's there, which isn't much, so if it's good it'll be good for longer. Look at how older music (5-6 yrs) that relied solely on a tech-trick at the time sounds dated now, whereas a nice solid tune can be played and played... -- eggytoast.com : eggtastic.com --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

eggy answered it a well, but i'd just like to chime in and say that i've pretty much gone full circle in my tastes... in the early mid ninties i liked more subtle forms like "trip hop" and ambient... then as the mid-late ninties rolled around i got all super obsessed with complexity like mike paradinas, squarepusher, ae (as reflected by our first 10 tunes as blue vitriol), but lately i find myself getting more and more obsessed with music that takse the stripped down aesthetic quite far, i really love dub + minimal techno, and glitch house these days. still, i'll throw on "brace yourself" or "hard normal daddy" or venetion snares sometimes and get off on the crazy edits. there is plenty of room for subtlety in the genre. -josh -- ________________________________________________________________ live experimental electronic music -- http://bluevitriol.com independent u.s. drum'n'bass -- http://vitriolix.com --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

unfortunately, i didn't get eggy's reply but the next digest will take car of that i hope. blue vitriol rings a bell, have you released stuff under that name? or is it a drug? :-) anyway, i've also come to love those modern dub (a la scape, pole's label) and minimal techno things, and artist like apparat (his duplex on shitkatapult is wonderful) are as "frickly" as any squarepusher out there. cheers, roland Am 26.02.2004 um 23:38 schrieb Josh Steiner:

quoted 19 lines eggy answered it a well, but i'd just like to chime in and say that

> eggy answered it a well, but i'd just like to chime in and say that > i've pretty much gone full circle in my tastes... in the early mid > ninties i liked more subtle forms like "trip hop" and ambient... then > as the mid-late ninties rolled around i got all super obsessed with > complexity like mike paradinas, squarepusher, ae (as reflected by our > first 10 tunes as blue vitriol), but lately i find myself getting more > and more obsessed with music that takse the stripped down aesthetic > quite far, i really love dub + minimal techno, and glitch house these > days. still, i'll throw on "brace yourself" or "hard normal daddy" or > venetion snares sometimes and get off on the crazy edits. there is > plenty of room for subtlety in the genre. > > -josh > > -- > ________________________________________________________________ > live experimental electronic music -- http://bluevitriol.com > independent u.s. drum'n'bass -- http://vitriolix.com >

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saltimbocca@gmx.de wrote:

quoted 3 lines unfortunately, i didn't get eggy's reply but the next digest will take

> unfortunately, i didn't get eggy's reply but the next digest will take > car of that i hope. blue vitriol rings a bell, have you released stuff > under that name? or is it a drug? :-)

hehe... well... we've been one of those casual hobbiest "bands" for a while now, but only really started taking it more seriously in the last year. we're gigging regularly in the SF bay area now, and would love to tour, so hopefully you'll be seeing us around soon. our website it kinda bullshit, but i was gonna upload our slightly better one in the next day or two... we put some demos of tunes we are working on here: http://bluevitriol.com/demos/ and just to be annoying, some over here too: http://leech.ev01.net/bluevitriol/Blue_Vitriol_-_Oceans_On_Titan.mp3 http://leech.ev01.net/bluevitriol/Blue_Vitriol_-_Continued_In_Your_Mind.mp3 http://leech.ev01.net/bluevitriol/Blue_Vitriol_-_A_Trip_to_the_Outer_Planets.mp3 and here are some older, more cut'n'paste dsp style tunes of ours: http://leech.ev01.net/bluevitriol/Blue_Vitriol_-_Pomponio_(Another_Beach).mp3 http://leech.ev01.net/bluevitriol/Blue_Vitriol_-_Slab.mp3 http://leech.ev01.net/bluevitriol/Blue_Vitriol_-_The_Beach.mp3 we have many more which will be appearing onthe website soon too... anyhow... i should go finish that damned website :)

quoted 2 lines anyway, i've also come to love those modern dub (a la scape, pole's

> anyway, i've also come to love those modern dub (a la scape, pole's > label) and minimal techno things, and artist

yes. deadbeat - something borrowed, something blue is one of my favorites albums right now...

quoted 2 lines like apparat (his duplex on shitkatapult is wonderful) are as

> like apparat (his duplex on shitkatapult is wonderful) are as > "frickly" as any squarepusher out there.

i'll have to check this one out... later... -josh

quoted 1 line

>

-- ________________________________________________________________ live experimental electronic music -- http://bluevitriol.com independent u.s. drum'n'bass -- http://vitriolix.com --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

even though what I do has only marginally to do with IDM, it's actually clicky housey abstract jazz funk live electronic music. This could still be IDM. I think it just depends on the depth, intricacy, and complexity of the rhythm and the unconventionality of the melody/harmony. i would definitely say that not all IDM has to be preprogrammed/sequenced. in my own work i would like to bring back some of the john cageyness to electronic music performance. there is so much IDM potential in something as simple as a contact mic that not many people seem to be interested in anymore, now that they have so many preset sounds in something like FLStudio, for instance (not saying that you can't customize it). the latest Savath&Savalas album, Apropra't alright, i dont even own this album, but i've heard parts and i know scott's work as s&s, as well as d&a. simply put, not everything released by warp is IDM. last year i saw !!! live and it was great but it was not IDM. it was funk. if apropra't is listed with other IDM in the record store, isnt that just because prefuse is his more famous work? judging by some of his album titles, i think he has probably always had a certain fascination with folk music. the award for best new genre title goes to i think XLR8R, who reviewed Four Tet's Rounds as being folktronica. particularly when you set it against some of Squarepusher's more ferocious tunes Squarepusher is impossible to listen to sometimes - for me at least - due to the sheer 'stress factor'. overall, i suppose squarepusher makes drill 'n' bass or whatever, not IDM. i think he is a major name in IDM because of his associations with warp and richard d james, and albums like burningn'n tree, selection sixteen, parts of feed me weird things, and some others. but when i listen to go plastic and do you know squarepusher i really dont feel like i'm listening to IDM. How difficult to listen/noise-based/complicated/progressive does IDM have to be? as much as the artist wants. i think if it's difficult to listen to, then that's a statement about experimental music as a whole, not IDM as a genre. i think people consider music that's difficult to listen to experimental and therefore more like IDM. in reality, i think IDM became something with its own unique formula just like any other genre. autechre has spawned so many spin offs its impossible to keep track, so one can hardly call them progressive in any way. other genres take care of the hard to listen to noise-based stuff just as well as IDM does. industrial music is a huge genre with, obviously, lots of noise acts. -but I would still like to figure out where the Intelligent in the IDM name ends and where 'banal', for lack of a better word, starts. I think that's why all of us are on this list, to figure that out. It's been established that even IDMers hate the label IDM, because we didnt make it up. I think what makes it intelligent is that you can enjoy it on and off the dance floor and its not all about some whiny vocal line about how much you need someone to go home with tonight from the club. i think if the artist is aware that music has the potential to make a statement then it will be reflected in the music. it will go beyond the problem of convincing a club patron to buy a drink and get on the dance floor, but may even solve the problem of making that patron turn inward and wonder something about him/herself and the universe (if that is the intent of the music). basically, i feel like IDM is now more of a ghost than a real thing, a force that will forever haunt the world's judgement of the quality of electronic music. i think IDM was important becauase it looked at the electronic dance music scene and said, whoa, no, wait, this will never do. this stuff is way too boring and is all just regurgitation of old styles with new equipment. something must be done. and then we got autechre and polygon window (aka the dice man. o/t, richard should have stuck with that name - it's like someone calling themself I Ching). It's the same thing that happened in the 30s when some composers wanted to use new electronic instruments like theremins and other spin-offs to play classical tunes with emulation of classical instrument timbres. Other composers were like f*ck that, this is a new era! with new possibilities that could change music forever! and that's the spirit that IDM embraced 60 years later. I think we owe a lot to guys like Russolo and Cage. It asks its audience to figure out a new way to enjoy what they're hearing. I've found it's better to dance and think at the same time than just dance. i suppose some of this reply sounds obvious, so i'm hoping that others will follow because this is the kind of discussion that i think this list needs more of. greg

Welcome to the list.

quoted 2 lines How difficult to listen/noise-based/complicated/progressive does IDM

> How difficult to listen/noise-based/complicated/progressive does IDM > have to be?

Uh, have to be for what? To be IDM? To be good? Not difficult/complicated at all, it can be very easily approachable or even one-dimensional, if that one dimension is enjoyable... The 'I' doesn't really stand for much else than aesthetics in my opinion. But really, why do you think there is necessarily a connection between being complicated or progressive and being difficult to listen to or stressful? Not to mention, there is nothing complicated in randomness. For example Lexaunculpt's rhythm programming is some of the most uninteresting I have heard, no matter how ever-changing it is. I don't find Mira Calix to be in any way complex either.

quoted 3 lines But I would still like to figure out where the Intelligent in the IDM name

> But I would still like to figure out where the Intelligent in the IDM name > ends and where 'banal', for lack of a better word, starts... I would love > to see what you people think about this phenomenon.

Frankly speaking, I find the question a bit confusing. What 'phenomenon' are you referring to? Or what do you mean by banal? Self-indulgent/pretentious complexity, or what? There is a good balance between complexity and immediate delight in Apropra't which is IYO lacking in some Squarepusher's tracks, is this your point? What, then, is the question? Comparing Calix, Pusher and S & S seems a bit problematic to me in the first place, since they are all doing completely different things... Visa --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

quoted 8 lines Sure, this is all a matter of taste you might say - and you're right

> Sure, this is all a matter of taste you might say - and you're right > -but I would still like to figure out where the Intelligent in the IDM > name ends and where 'banal', for lack of a better word, starts. > Probably a matter of personal opinion - but I would love to see what > you people think about this phenomenon. Because, much as I respect > Squarepusher and get inspiration from his music, it really is > impossible to listen to sometimes - for me at least - due to the sheer > 'stress factor'.

I think it boils down to the fact that "IDM" really isn't clearly defined, and really isn't going to be anytime soon. So you have all different kinds of criteria. Ultimately nobody is the ultimate reference on what electronic is interesting/thought provoking, its more just a shifting mass of opinion with different degrees of concensus. Its interesting, because it seems like the concencus feeling of "IDM" actually is comprised of has broadened over the years. Personally i just want to hear about anything that's particularly good/interesting, and what criteria by which people think its good/interesting, then i'll decide for myself. There are times when the IDM list has been good for finding that info. However its gotten alot thinner with all the different ways of checking stuff out more quickly - chat / soulseek in specific. RE: just the "difficulty" of music, meaning complexity or abrasiveness. I have no problem listening to "abrasive" music for long periods of time. I don't know how to explain why though - its just taste as well as sort of deciding to be open to it all at one point. - cutups --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

mark, the statement about IDM being for the discriminating listener is certainly true and probably the bottom line, but I still hope many more replies and opinions will be coming in. As I said, when I listened to Mira Calix it was just too much and I decided to get Savath&Savalas instead - I see quite clearly how seldom I listen to Autechre recordings despite the fact that they inspire me tremendously. And the reference to coltrane is a very fitting one! He too isn't easy to listen to (especially the one-hour versions of Favorite Things towards the end of his life - I never sat through one of those more than once). Still, Transition is up there as one of my favorite albums ever, I'm finding, more and more often, that it's more about reduction more than virtuosity - If one wanted to be awkward, one could accuse Aphex and Squarepusher of beatwanking - and it is a justifyable point, even if I don't necessarily share it. But in some tunes, the sheer musiciality is sometimes amiss. Am 26.02.2004 um 23:56 schrieb Nelson, Mark:

quoted 6 lines On a different note - where are you based? I'm an electronic/live

> > On a different note - where are you based? I'm an electronic/live > drummer living in LA. I try to incorporate everything from D n'B to > breakbeat and I play the beats live. I'm always looking for people to > work with. >

I do that live stuff to but I'm based in Munich - unfortunately! I play live quite often too though the electronic side is taken care of by somebody else then, as I play guitar. I did play with my laptop and guitar but that was too many duties at once! In case there's anybody on this list from Berlin, I'll be playing there on March 7 at Rosi's. Email me if you need further details. Roland --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

quoted 3 lines This could still be IDM. I think it just depends on the depth, intricacy,

> This could still be IDM. I think it just depends on the depth, intricacy, > and complexity of the rhythm and the unconventionality of the > melody/harmony.

I think most IDM is both rhythmically and harmonically very conventional. It just follows the IDM conventions, not, say, pop-conventions.

quoted 1 line overall, i suppose squarepusher makes drill 'n' bass or whatever, not IDM.

> overall, i suppose squarepusher makes drill 'n' bass or whatever, not IDM.

But I'd definately say that drill'n'bass (as well as folktronica) is a subgenre of IDM. Else you are claiming that classic IDM-albums like Richard D. James Album and Lunatic Harness (and, yes, lots of Squarepusher's work) are not IDM at all, which seems infeasible.

quoted 6 lines i think if the artist is aware that music has the potential to make a

> i think if the artist is aware that music has the potential to make a > statement then it will be reflected in the music. it will go beyond > the problem of convincing a club patron to buy a drink and get > on the dance floor, but may even solve the problem of making that > patron turn inward and wonder something about him/herself and > the universe (if that is the intent of the music).

I think most IDM artists aren't really interested in making any 'statements'. I've always viewed IDM as a sort of escapist genre, with no intentions of making anyone realize anything beyond the music. There is little of the musique concrete spirit of making pompous manifest and grandiloquent plans - most IDMers seem more keen in just having fun. IDM is IMO not the heir of the Cageian spirit. Visa --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

quoted 1 line I think most IDM is both rhythmically and harmonically very conventional. It

>I think most IDM is both rhythmically and harmonically very conventional. It

just follows the IDM conventions, not, say, pop-conventions. I agree, but only when i was talking about spin-off bands at the end of the message, and IDM in its current state as a genre. So yes, most of it is within its own conventions, but there had to be some experimental aspect to the music to make it different from everything else in the first place, and to earn the name intelligent dance music it of course was not very conventional. I think we are more or less in agreement, just that I am calling it "unconventional" as opposed to "the IDM conventions." A lot of early autechre/polygon window had some really different sounding structures and rhythms.

quoted 1 line But I'd definately say that drill'n'bass (as well as folktronica) is a

>But I'd definately say that drill'n'bass (as well as folktronica) is a

subgenre of IDM. Else you are claiming that classic IDM-albums like Richard D. James Album and Lunatic Harness (and, yes, lots of Squarepusher's work) are not IDM at all, which seems infeasible. Yeah, I've heard people categorize RDJ album and Lunatic Harness as drill 'n' bass, but i dont get the connection. I thought drill 'n' bass was supposed to be super harsh experimental drum 'n' bass... am i missing the big picture here?

quoted 1 line I think most IDM artists aren't really interested in making any

>I think most IDM artists aren't really interested in making any

'statements'. I've always viewed IDM as a sort of escapist genre, with no intentions of making anyone realize anything beyond the music. There is little of the musique concrete spirit of making pompous manifest and grandiloquent plans - most IDMers seem more keen in just having fun. IDM is IMO not the heir of the Cageian spirit. I really think it can be imo AND experimental AND make a statement. i think the statement inherently is that pop music doesnt have the emotional depth that many of us would like to hear in music, and all i'm really saying is that no one at a brittney spears show is having an epiphany because of the MUSIC, whereas i've had people i've brought to IDM shows say that the music made them realize that other things are possible in life. I think its just that most of the people on this list and our close friends are probably all very aware of living life without following all the rules. And that's what has been inspiring experimental music possibly for all time, and certainly since the invention of electronic musical instruments. Though I do agree that "most IDMers seem more keen in having fun," there is probably a reason why they make IDM and not other music that is equally as fun (although i'm not quite sure what that music would be, which is why i'm on this list). It's possible that I'm stressing the experimental aspect way too much. I'd be curious to hear what people think... IS IDM AN EXPERIMENTAL GENRE, OR JUST ANOTHER GENRE OF POPULAR MUSIC? maybe it's just that it represents the same overlapping of "experimental" and "popular" that someone like hendrix represented at feedback-laden concerts to unsuspecting audiences. greg

quoted 1 line But I'd definately say that drill'n'bass (as well as folktronica) is a

>But I'd definately say that drill'n'bass (as well as folktronica) is a

subgenre of IDM. Else you are claiming that classic IDM-albums like Richard D. James Album and Lunatic Harness (and, yes, lots of Squarepusher's work) are not IDM at all, which seems infeasible. I also wanted to ask everyone if they really consider albums like Apropra't (s&s) and Pause/Rounds (four tet), all 3 of which someone might call folktronica, to be IDM. I think we need to draw the line somewhere, and i would definitely put four tet and s&s somewhere else. prefuse may be IDM, but that doesnt mean all scott's work is IDM. when i talked to kieren (four tet) at a show once, he said he tries to blend the rock show with the electronic show. i bet if you asked autechre, aphex, plaid, etc. what they were thinking in the early 90s they would not have said they were trying to blend anything except the electronic timbres firing through their neurons. greg

"most IDMers seem more keen in having fun," Well I'm not quite sure about that. I suppose "IDMers" referes to people making IDM music. And if so I don't see no connection between having fun and making this kind of music. One could say exactly the same for skateboarders or surfers or people making any kind of music. I don`t believe there's a correlation between being keen of having fun and making IDM. This fun-thing is more a sociological category called hedonism and you can find it like everywhere as long as people are young. And by listening to what I think is ment by IDM (I know that this might be a difficould point as there are likely no two exatly corresponding opinions of what is IDM is in this list) I usually am not primarely having fun either. This music is made for brains (perhaps the Intelligent does refer to this point). Ok one might just leave the music play in the background, but most people might know the situation when you've got a new record. You put it on, take your headphones and listen to the music, but not just listening, but analysing the whole thing. Listen to the beats for once, recognizing every small blip (or at least trying to) or switching attention to the sounds, melodies, harmonies and all this on and on until you really know this record. Well one could say this is fun too, but its not the same fun I get listening to Reggaemusic whiich just makes one feel good and forgent about everything else. SokelA --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

I don't see no connection between having fun and making this kind of music. what?!?! i think part of the reason why IDM is such a bedroom-producer phenomenon is that nothing could be better than waking up in the morning, frying up some eggs (a la jenkinson in the film modulations), smoking a fat spliff, and taking out everything on your sequencer. it may not be fun for everyone and the whole family, but neither is IDM as a whole. when i show all my computer software to my friends who know nothing about IDM or the making of it, they want to play around with it for hours. it's just intrinsically fun to sit around and play with stuff on a screen that makes weird noises. to a beat. its not the same fun I get listening to Reggaemusic whiich just makes one feel good and forgent about everything else. point taken. maybe IDM is not so fun after all. also, though, it depends, because obviously some IDM shows everyone is dancing around having fun forgetting about problems and other shows everyone just looks like they are concentrating harder than they ever have before. greg

Greg Baker wrote:

quoted 5 lines I don't see no connection between having fun and making this kind of music.

>I don't see no connection between having fun and making this kind of music. > >what?!?! i think part of the reason why IDM is such a bedroom-producer phenomenon is that nothing could be better than waking up in the morning, frying up some eggs (a la jenkinson in the film modulations), smoking a fat spliff, and taking out everything on your sequencer. it may not be fun for everyone and the whole family, but neither is IDM as a whole. when i show all my computer software to my friends who know nothing about IDM or the making of it, they want to play around with it for hours. it's just intrinsically fun to sit around and play with stuff on a screen that makes weird noises. to a beat. > >

ok you've got a point there, but wouldn't you agree if I say that its kind of a definitionproblem of what is fun. I see what you mean, but i think that people are serious. Just imagine most IDM-Liveacts. They don't seem to have the aim to make people happy or have fun theirselves. (I know there are exeptions like maybe Cex) And hard to confess this, I've never been on an IDM-event where people were having fun, enjoing theirselves. Everybody's standing around, looking at the guy with the Laptop or having their eyes closed, being in a world far away from present and reality. That is fun too, but its more a kind of solitairefun. Like "Me enjoing myself". That might be the same fun people are having building their sounds alone in their ministudio, experimenting with every stuff available, smoking spliffs, well thats what at least happens to me. But maybe this is also a question of nationality. It may sound strange but perhaps its a german phenomena (as I am based there). For what I hear from friends which went to IDM-parties in the States I feel like the right thing is going on there and we here are just a bunch of nerds which do not know how to dance to this music. Even when I went to Berlin to see Autechre, people were standing around, perhaps moving one food or nodding their head, but I didn't see no real party going on there. SokelA --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

quoted 8 lines Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2004 23:01:52 +0100

> Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2004 23:01:52 +0100 > To: idm@hyperreal.org > From: saltimbocca@gmx.de > Subject: How 'cutting edge'/difficult does IDM have to be? > Message-Id: <627F05DC-68A7-11D8-A0BA-000393C80624@gmx.de> > > How difficult to listen/noise-based/complicated/progressive does IDM > have to be?

Plod spring to mind immediately. Difficulty of listening has nothing to do with how experimental or complex a piece of music is - that's a common mistake which results in so much awful stupid self-regarding harder-than-thou dspwankery.

quoted 2 lines From: Greg Baker <vacationtheory@yahoo.com>

> > From: Greg Baker <vacationtheory@yahoo.com>

<>

quoted 1 line Yeah, I've heard people categorize RDJ album and Lunatic Harness as drill

> Yeah, I've heard people categorize RDJ album and Lunatic Harness as drill

'n' bass, but i dont get the connection. I thought drill 'n' bass was supposed to be super harsh experimental drum 'n' bass... am i missing the big picture here? I think the word drill'n'bass was journalistic sarcasm (Reynolds?) which got taken literally as some kind of hot new music genre by overseas Wire subscribers. In any case like eggy said it's about dance music not for the dancefloor which could well describe super harsh experimental drum 'n' bass. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

quoted 1 line Yeah, I've heard people categorize RDJ album and Lunatic Harness as drill

> Yeah, I've heard people categorize RDJ album and Lunatic Harness as drill

'n' bass, but i dont get the connection. I thought drill 'n' bass was supposed to be super harsh experimental drum 'n' bass... am i missing the big picture here? I think the word drill'n'bass was journalistic sarcasm (Reynolds?) which got taken literally as some kind of hot new music genre by overseas Wire subscribers. In any case like eggy said it's about dance music not for the dancefloor which could well describe super harsh experimental drum 'n' bass. isnt every genre name made up by some journalist? and the question is whether or not RDJ album and Lunatic Harness are considered drill 'n' bass. That's fine if you think experimental drum 'n' bass is IDM, but i'm saying RDJ album and Lunatic harness are IDM first and foremost, not Drill 'n' Bass as was suggested earlier. only reason i was saying that drill is not IDM is because i think people immediately want to just shove drill in as part of IDM because it can be so hard to listen to. i really believe that IDM represents more of a balance or jux with harsh/jagged elements and serene/smooth elements. i care because you do is a perfect example of what i'm talking about. my question is really about whether or not there is a place for nice, friendly sounds in the drill genre. i had said that drill is not IDM, and was corrected because it would mean that RDJ album and Lunatic Harness are not IDM. which i believe they are, so i want to get to the bottom of my confusion. i cant be walkin around sayin classics aint classics. greg

quoted 2 lines I think most IDM is both rhythmically and harmonically very

> I think most IDM is both rhythmically and harmonically very > conventional.

This I don't agree with at all...... please transcribe some of Squarepshr's rhythms, then I'll believe you really mean this. Roland --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

quoted 5 lines Frankly speaking, I find the question a bit confusing. What

> Frankly speaking, I find the question a bit confusing. What > 'phenomenon' are > you referring to? Or what do you mean by banal? > Self-indulgent/pretentious > complexity, or what?

I guess I meant to prompt a discussion on how many people like very very complex stuff. Of course much of it has its roots in industrial music (as noise is often employed) and I find it harder and harder to listen to. I would be interested to know how many people actually sit through noisy tunes and listen to them all the way through. I have gotten used to a lot of stuff over the years, and "opening" one's ears is definitely my concept, but some of Squarepshr's hard, atonal, noise stuff is just simply impossible - for me. Who is listening to these sometimes quite unmelodic things and actually enjoys it? And my question referrs to the beat-wanking complexity that challenges my intellect but seems, as you say, self-indugent. So I guess the question is: "What do YOU get out of this kind of stuff because I don't seem to be able to appreciate it" ----- I know it's all a matter of taste - and I buy the stuff I like - it's just an aspect worth discussing I think.

quoted 4 lines But really, why do you think there is necessarily a connection between

> But really, why do you think there is necessarily a connection between > being > complicated or progressive and being difficult to listen to or > stressful?

Because most of the time there is - I often differentiate progressive from less progressive by the way how complicated it sounds....so in a nutshell: Savath seems very traditional, but with underlying modern electronic element, prefuse73 seems more modern/prog for the beat-cuttery and never-heard-this-before factor, and Pusher is "far out", in a very methodical, advanced and complicated way. Therefore I rate him the most progressive of the three---- MAYBE I'm wrong thinking this, and could discover other progressive traits in music except their "futuristic" quality... The way everyone here "detects" newness and innovation in music would be another topic worth of discussion - maybe my way is too one-dimensional.

quoted 3 lines Comparing Calix, Pusher and S & S seems

> Comparing Calix, Pusher and S & S seems > a bit problematic to me in the first place, since they are all doing > completely different things...

Well their association with Warp made me compare them - you could also take other artists as examples. They seem to be potentially geared towards the same target group as they share the same label, and many people do buy records by label rather than artist in techno.... Roland

quoted 1 line I guess I meant to prompt a discussion on how many people like very

>I guess I meant to prompt a discussion on how many people like very

very complex stuff. harder to listen to. hard, atonal, noise stuff is just simply impossible - for me. Who is listening to these sometimes quite unmelodic things and actually enjoys it? okay, so, first, with the whole squarepusher thing, did someone like, dupe you into buying recent squarepusher material that you werent familiar with? if you are having a hard time with tom's music i highly recommend you start from the beginning of his career and listen to everything he's ever put out since. it will be highly worth your while and when you get to the last 3 albums he's released then you will realize why they sound the way they do. second, count me in for very complex, but definitely not pointless and complex. like someone made a comment about lexaunculpt having pretty stupid drum programming even tho it never repeats, and although i dont have his material i know people who have seen him live and were also very uninterested. but like, i still feel like what happened was that you bought squarepusher and were expecting something less "out there." maybe if you buy something with the intention of having it be noise art then you will like it. try listening to a mary anne amarcher album.

quoted 4 lines But really, why do you think there is necessarily a connection between

> But really, why do you think there is necessarily a connection between > being > complicated or progressive and being difficult to listen to or > stressful?

quoted 1 line I often differentiate progressive

> I often differentiate progressive

from less progressive by the way how complicated it sounds... although this doesnt really answer the question, it's interesting, and therefore i'll put in my 2 cents, cause thats about all i have on the subject. for me, the "progressiveness" of the music can "easily" be determined (not really): 1. know everything about all past music so you can know how progressive what you're hearing is. 2. the music is progressive if it taps into an emotion you didn't even know you had.

quoted 3 lines Comparing Calix, Pusher and S & S seems

>Comparing Calix, Pusher and S & S seems > a bit problematic to me in the first place, since they are all doing > completely different things...

quoted 1 line Well their association with Warp made me compare them - you could also

>Well their association with Warp made me compare them - you could also

take other artists as examples. They seem to be potentially geared towards the same target group as they share the same label, and many people do buy records by label rather than artist in techno.... yeah, well, this aint techno buddy and who ever said that is right in my opinion. while they may be geared toward the same target group, warp has someone smart running that operation because they realize their fans want to buy from warp but they have different needs to be filled. like, what if autechre and arovane and funkstorung had all released most of their material on warp? they would like, out compete each other and never make any money. that would suck. btw, i'm probably going to get slaughtered for saying this, but i'd say calix is the most IDM of the three. her show with chris clark in SF last year was the second most IDM experience i've ever had. and now i'm going totally off topic, but now i feel compelled to say what the coolest IDM show i ever went to was. so, terpsichore, echolocation, if you guys are listening, remember that show a while back (year or two at the most) with tipper, l'usine, etc. in downtown SF with tron playing upstairs on 3 concentric glass screens and all the white parachutes in the basement with bean bag chairs, old apple computers, and nature movies playing (like bugs crawling on leaves and stuff)? you guys, seriously, are your shows in LA that cool? i'm gonna have my friends go and check them out, and if they're not, you guys totally need to come back to the bay and i'll bring all my friends and you will be rich. if they are that cool, i know you guys just moved down there, so maybe i'll have to come down and check one out some time. SoCal. why? greg

quoted 6 lines overall, i suppose squarepusher makes drill 'n' bass or whatever, not

> overall, i suppose squarepusher makes drill 'n' bass or whatever, not > IDM. i think he is a major name in IDM because of his associations > with warp and richard d james, and albums like burningn'n tree, > selection sixteen, parts of feed me weird things, and some others. > but when i listen to go plastic and do you know squarepusher i really > dont feel like i'm listening to IDM.

Well OK - there we go, I probably took Squarepusher a bit too much for IDM, I though you'd put it in there but I know there's lots of other sub-genres and other styles, which I guess makes it so fascinating for me. I just bought Prefuse's Uprock.... (my first Bleep purchase btw!), and it is funky as much as it is complex, and this I really like - hence my reference to Apparat. When I played his Duplex album to a lady friend of mine the other day and asked her to categorise it, she said she'd call the style "Angenehm" - German for "pleasant"! I had quite a laugh..... I think what makes IDM IDM is that it makes you THINK (at least most of the time) Cheers, Roland --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

quoted 1 line IS IDM AN EXPERIMENTAL GENRE, OR JUST ANOTHER GENRE OF POPULAR MUSIC?

> IS IDM AN EXPERIMENTAL GENRE, OR JUST ANOTHER GENRE OF POPULAR MUSIC?

This is partially true, although the group of people for which this music is interesting is very small - and as popular by definition means "for many people or a large portion of the population", it's an interesting twilight zone - it attracts small numbers of listeners but its roots definitely lie in pop music - Funk, Soul, Jazz and the electronic styles that grew out of them (HipHop and House, for instance). Same with jazz today - when I play guitar with jazz groups, for example, few people turn up but they're well into the music. I imagine it's the same with IDM. Good to get all these opinions/input from all of you! Roland --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

On Sat, 28 Feb 2004 saltimbocca@gmx.de wrote:

quoted 1 line IS IDM AN EXPERIMENTAL GENRE, OR JUST ANOTHER GENRE OF POPULAR MUSIC?

> > IS IDM AN EXPERIMENTAL GENRE, OR JUST ANOTHER GENRE OF POPULAR MUSIC?

Can't it be both? Luis --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

quoted 1 line IS IDM AN EXPERIMENTAL GENRE, OR JUST ANOTHER GENRE OF POPULAR MUSIC?

> > IS IDM AN EXPERIMENTAL GENRE, OR JUST ANOTHER GENRE OF POPULAR MUSIC?

Can't it be both? well, between your response and rolands response about IDM's hommage to funk, jazz, disco, rock, and what not, i suppose idm is like experimental popular music in a way, not unlike indie and imo, words which also keep coming up on this list. i think that's just the reality of the situation, even though i think ideally for me IDM would embrace pop experimentalism in a way that was more about creating music that sounds good in completely unconventional ways, thus stressing the experimental aspect of it, even though the record would sound like popular music. for example, i really liked syndrone's use of his guitar at the 404404 show a few months ago, because he just kept hammering on with the chord positions and all you could hear were these beautiful, ethereal, orchestral-yet-undeniably-electronic swellings, and you bet i went nuts when he finally dropped the beat on that one. i was thinking, hell yeah, that's what it's all about. like if you could make a hot beat by rubbing a contact mic over a crocodile skeleton, i would like that music to fall under the category of IDM.

I've always felt it to be a unique balance of the two. Look back at "pop" history, and there are so many brilliant moments as far as pushing limits, preconceived notions, etc. Look at Pet Sounds, that album was incredible production-wise, and Brian Wilson spent hours experimenting with post-production techniques, etc. Anything Phil Spector did I feel was experimental techniques applied to pop. He invented his own electronics for processing even! Even up to current music, Bjork feels as though her music is just pop. What Radiohead is doing is definately experimental, despite what some feel are moxed results. In idm, artists are constantly taking clues from pop culture, samples of a mainstream rapper, vocals, guitars, etc. Much of this music is still in 4/4 time, has clear bridges, intros, etc. Most of us came from an indie rock, hardcore, punk background, and alot of that shows. My wife and I find it so funny when we see people that we knew from old Fugazi and hardcore shows turn up when Plaid or Funstorung come into town. I think that some poeple just to define experimental as "challenging" rather than the far greater reaching tterm that it is. jpb

quoted 24 lines IS IDM AN EXPERIMENTAL GENRE, OR JUST ANOTHER GENRE OF POPULAR MUSIC?

> > > > IS IDM AN EXPERIMENTAL GENRE, OR JUST ANOTHER GENRE OF POPULAR MUSIC? > >Can't it be both? > >well, between your response and rolands response about IDM's hommage to >funk, jazz, disco, rock, and what not, i suppose idm is like >experimental popular music in a way, not unlike indie and imo, words which >also keep coming up on this list. i think that's just the reality of the >situation, even though i think ideally for me IDM would embrace pop >experimentalism in a way that was more about creating music that sounds >good in completely unconventional ways, thus stressing the experimental >aspect of it, even though the record would sound like popular music. for >example, i really liked syndrone's use of his guitar at the 404404 show >a few months ago, because he just kept hammering on with the chord >positions and all you could hear were these beautiful, ethereal, >orchestral-yet-undeniably-electronic swellings, and you bet i went nuts >when he >finally dropped the beat on that one. i was thinking, hell yeah, that's >what it's all about. like if you could make a hot beat by rubbing a > contact mic over a crocodile skeleton, i would like that music to fall >under the category of IDM. > >

_________________________________________________________________ Click, drag and drop. My MSN is the simple way to design your homepage. http://click.atdmt.com/AVE/go/onm00200364ave/direct/01/ --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

Greg wrote:

quoted 7 lines okay, so, first, with the whole squarepusher thing, did someone like,

> okay, so, first, with the whole squarepusher thing, did someone like, > dupe you into buying recent squarepusher material that you werent > familiar with? if you are having a hard time with tom's music i > highly recommend you start from the beginning of his career and listen > to everything he's ever put out since. it will be highly worth your > while and when you get to the last 3 albums he's released then you > will realize why they sound the way they do.

Well I have at least five albums - Hard Normal, Feed Me, Do you know, Go Plastic, Selection. I am well aware of where he comes from, musically, as I know the work of Wheather Report and Jaco, and I indeed (being a rock-jazz player myself) understand very well aware of his roots.

quoted 2 lines i still feel like what happened was that you bought squarepusher and

> i still feel like what happened was that you bought squarepusher and > were expecting something less "out there."

No - I knew what to expect actually enjoyed it tremendously, the fast and furious stuff, when I got Feed Me, but when it gets to noisy and stressful does the same as Free Jazz for me - to be taken in in little doses. :-) ... ..oh yeah: and best enjoyed live!

quoted 3 lines and now i'm going totally off topic, but now i feel compelled to say

> and now i'm going totally off topic, but now i feel compelled to say > what the coolest IDM show i ever went to was. so, terpsichore, > echolocation, if you guys are listening,

Sounds great even though I don't know any of the acts. My two most interesting IDM events were R. Devine and Luke Vibert (DJing) on the Warp tour, and Funkstoerung on their regular club night here at Pathos in Munich.

quoted 4 lines at the 404404 show

> at the 404404 show > a few months ago, because he just kept hammering on with the chord > positions and all you could hear were these beautiful, ethereal, > orchestral-yet-undeniably-electronic swellings,

wow that sounds cool and very interesting especially because I'm a guitar player too. has he released somewhere? I think it really is music, mainly, to listen to even though I've seen people dance to Ovuca and it looks well crazy :-) --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

quoted 3 lines Everybody's standing around, looking at the guy with the

> Everybody's standing around, looking at the guy with the > Laptop or having their eyes closed, being in a world far away from > present and reality.

Yeah, true..... :-) ... and the guy behind the laptop looks as if he's checking his emails. :-)))) BTW, it's different with Funkstoerung. Have you seen them? They do a regular monthly club night here in Munich. Roland --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

saltimbocca@gmx.de wrote:

quoted 7 lines Everybody's standing around, looking at the guy with the

>> Everybody's standing around, looking at the guy with the >> Laptop or having their eyes closed, being in a world far away from >> present and reality. > > > Yeah, true..... :-) ... and the guy behind the laptop looks as if he's > checking his emails. :-))))

Or playing Quake 3 or whatever, especially when there are two guys with two Laptops.

quoted 5 lines BTW, it's different with Funkstoerung. Have you seen them? They do a

> > BTW, it's different with Funkstoerung. Have you seen them? They do a > regular monthly club night here in Munich. > > Roland

Yes I've seen them like three times, but you never can be sure what they are going to do on stage. I've seen them DJ-ing which was not good for my taste. But this was because I had other expectations than listening to oldschool-hiphop when going to Funkstoerung. When I saw them with their liveset the first time it was really hard to listen to. Ok it is a question of taste but I don't feel like listening to music, hearing granulized random sounds for one hour or so which I recognize from my computer being frozen. But I heard similar sounds at the warp-magic bus tour from like all of the artists there, so perhaps this is their way of making liveshows different from their records, a intention I understand because pressing play on my winamp and waiting until the show is over might be boring. So now I try not to have any expectations when going to IDM shows but I'm still waiting for the night to come Sok --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org