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RE: [idm] understanding art (and all the other crap we are always yapping about.)

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◇ merged from 3 subjects: art/music · understanding art · understanding art (and all the other crap we are always yapping about.)
2001-05-11 23:26setre . [idm] understanding art (and all the other crap we are always yapping about.)
└─ 2001-05-12 14:50Myroslaw Bytz RE: [idm] understanding art (and all the other crap we are always yapping about.)
2001-05-12 15:26setre . RE: [idm] understanding art (and all the other crap we are always yapping about.)
└─ 2001-05-13 16:51Myroslaw Bytz RE: [idm] understanding art (and all the other crap we are always yapping about.)
├─ 2001-05-14 03:05Lander RE: [idm] understanding art (and all the other crap we are always yapping about.)
│ └─ 2001-05-14 06:46Myroslaw Bytz RE: [idm] understanding art (and all the other crap we are always yapping about.)
│ └─ 2001-05-14 07:08Peter Schrock Re: [idm] understanding art (and all the other crap we are always yapping about.)
│ └─ 2001-05-14 07:32Myroslaw Bytz RE: [idm] understanding art
│ └─ 2001-05-14 23:54Peter Schrock Re: [idm] understanding art
└─ 2001-05-14 06:35Peter Schrock Re: [idm] understanding art (and all the other crap we are always yapping about.)
└─ 2001-05-14 12:20R. Lim [idm] art/music
└─ 2001-05-15 00:24Peter Schrock Re: [idm] art/music
2001-05-12 21:32Ron Jeremy RE: [idm] understanding art (and all the other crap we are always yapping about.)
2001-05-14 13:13leafcutter RE: [idm] understanding art (and all the other crap we are always yapping about.)
├─ 2001-05-14 13:28Wez RE: [idm] understanding art (and all the other crap we are always yapping about.)
└─ 2001-05-14 13:55R. Lim RE: [idm] understanding art (and all the other crap we are always yapping about.)
└─ 2001-05-16 19:58butt chowder RE: [idm] understanding art (and all the other crap we are always yapping about.)
2001-05-14 14:11Kurt Hoffman RE: [idm] understanding art (and all the other crap we are always yapping about.)
2001-05-14 19:42setre . RE: [idm] understanding art (and all the other crap we are always yapping about.)
└─ 2001-05-14 20:48atomly Re: [idm] understanding art (and all the other crap we are always yapping about.)
2001-05-14 20:55setre . Re: [idm] understanding art (and all the other crap we are always yapping about.)
2001-05-14 22:23Emile L'Eplattenier Re: [idm] understanding art (and all the other crap we are always yapping about.)
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2001-05-11 23:26setre .Here is a section of a book called Art Objects. Read it. learn something. Art takes time.
From:
setre .
To:
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Date:
Fri, 11 May 2001 19:26:55 -0400
Subject:
[idm] understanding art (and all the other crap we are always yapping about.)
permalink · <F54kidcDjoYAPNXRPmc00004434@hotmail.com>
Here is a section of a book called Art Objects. Read it. learn something. Art takes time. To spend an hour looking at a painting is difficult. We are an odd people: we make it as difficult as possible for our artists to work honestly while they are alive; either we refuse them money or we ruin them with money; either we flatter them with unhelpful praise or wound them with unhelpful blame, and when they are too old or dead, or too beyond dispute to hinder anymore, we canonize them, so that what was wild is tamed, and what was objected, becomes authority. Canonizing pictures is one way of killing them. When the sense of familiarity becomes too great, history, popularity, association, all crowd in between the viewer and the picture and block it out. Not only pictures suffer like this, all the arts suffer like this. If the obvious direct emotional response is to have any meaning, the question "do I like this?" will have to be the opening question and not the final judgment. An examination of our own feelings will have to give way to an examination of the piece of work. This is fair to the work and it will help to clarify the nature of our own feelings; to reveal prejudice, opinion, anxiety, even the mood of the day. It is right to trust our feelings but right to test them too. If they are what we say they are, then they will stand the test, if not, we will at least be less insecure. But here we come back to the first hurdle of art, and it is a high one; it shows up. When you say "This work has nothing to do with me". when you say "this work is boring/pointless/silly/obscure/elitist etc.", you might be right, because you are looking at a fad, or you might be wrong, because the work falls so outside of the safety of you?re own experience that in order to keep you?re own world intact, you must deny the other world of the painting. This denial of imaginative experience happens at a deeper level than our affirmation of our daily world. Every day, in countless ways, you and I convince ourselves about ourselves. True art, when it happens to us, challenges the "I" that we are. A love-parallel would be just; falling in love challenges the reality to which we lay claim, part of the pleasure of love and part of its terror, is the world turned upside down. We want and we don?t want, the cutting edge, the upset, the new views. Mostly we work hard at taming our emotional environment just as we work hard at taming our aesthetic environment. We already have tamed our physical environment. And are we happy with all this tameness? Are you? Art cannot be tamed, although our responses to it can be, and in relation to the Canon, our responses are conditioned from the moment we start school. The freshness which the everyday regular man or woman pride themselves upon; the untaught ?I know what I like? approach, now encouraged by the media, is neither fresh nor untaught. It is the half-baked sterility of the classroom washed down with liberal doses of popular culture. The media ransacks the arts, in its images, in its adverts, in its copy, in its jingles, in its little tunes and journalist?s jargon, it continually offers up faint shadows of the form and invention of real music, real paintings, real words. All of us are subjected to this bombardment, which both deadens our sensibilities and makes us fear what is not instant, approachable, consumable. The solid presence of art demands from us significant effort, an effort anathema to popular culture. Effort of time, effort of money, effort of study, effort of humility, effort of imagination have each been packed by the artist into the art. Is it so unreasonable to expect a percentage of that from us in return? I worry that to ask for effort is to imply elitism, and the charge against art, that it is elitist, is to often the accuser?s defense against his or her own bafflement. It is quite close to the remark ?Why can?t they all speak English?? , which may be why "elitist" is the favorite insult of the American and the British. But you may say, how can I know what is good and what is not good? I may wince at the cheap seascape over the mantelpiece but does that necessarily mean I should go to the Tate gallery and worship a floor full of dyed rice? Years ago, when I was living very briefly with a stockbroker who had a good cellar, I asked him how I could learn about wine. ?Drink it? he said. piece, mike p.s. if you want to read the whole thing (which was way too long for me to type) look up the book. _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org
2001-05-12 14:50Myroslaw Bytzfuck art. let's kill. vzaem against the concept of "art" > -----Original Message----- > Fr
From:
Myroslaw Bytz
To:
setre . , , ,
Date:
Sat, 12 May 2001 10:50:30 -0400
Subject:
RE: [idm] understanding art (and all the other crap we are always yapping about.)
Reply to:
[idm] understanding art (and all the other crap we are always yapping about.)
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fuck art. let's kill. vzaem against the concept of "art"
quoted 141 lines -----Original Message-----> -----Original Message----- > From: setre . [mailto:drakt@hotmail.com] > Sent: Friday, May 11, 2001 7:27 PM > To: kromattik@aol.com; dreadik@tokyo.com; idm@hyperreal.org > Subject: [idm] understanding art (and all the other crap we are always > yapping about.) > > > > > Here is a section of a book called Art Objects. Read it. learn something. > > > Art takes time. To spend an hour looking at a painting is difficult. We > are an odd people: we make it as difficult as possible for our artists to > work honestly while they are alive; either we refuse them money > or we ruin > them with money; either we flatter them with unhelpful praise or > wound them > with unhelpful blame, and when they are too old or dead, or too beyond > dispute to hinder anymore, we canonize them, so that what was > wild is tamed, > and what was objected, becomes authority. Canonizing pictures is > one way of > killing them. When the sense of familiarity becomes too great, history, > popularity, association, all crowd in between the viewer and the > picture and > block it out. Not only pictures suffer like this, all the arts > suffer like > this. > > If the obvious direct emotional response is to have any meaning, the > question "do I like this?" will have to be the opening question > and not the > final judgment. An examination of our own feelings will have to > give way to > an examination of the piece of work. This is fair to the work and it will > help to clarify the nature of our own feelings; to reveal prejudice, > opinion, anxiety, even the mood of the day. It is right to trust our > feelings but right to test them too. If they are what we say they > are, then > they will stand the test, if not, we will at least be less insecure. But > here we come back to the first hurdle of art, and it is a high > one; it shows > up. > When you say "This work has nothing to do with me". when you say > "this work > is boring/pointless/silly/obscure/elitist etc.", you might be > right, because > you are looking at a fad, or you might be wrong, because the work > falls so > outside of the safety of you’re own experience that in order to > keep you’re > own world intact, you must deny the other world of the painting. > This denial > of imaginative experience happens at a deeper level than our > affirmation of > our daily world. Every day, in countless ways, you and I convince > ourselves > about ourselves. True art, when it happens to us, challenges the > "I" that we > are. > > A love-parallel would be just; falling in love challenges the > reality to > which we lay claim, part of the pleasure of love and part of its > terror, is > the world turned upside down. We want and we don’t want, the > cutting edge, > the upset, the new views. Mostly we work hard at taming our emotional > environment just as we work hard at taming our aesthetic environment. We > already have tamed our physical environment. And are we happy > with all this > tameness? Are you? > > > Art cannot be tamed, although our responses to it can be, and > in relation > to the Canon, our responses are conditioned from the moment we > start school. > The freshness which the everyday regular man or woman pride > themselves upon; > the untaught “I know what I like” approach, now encouraged by the > media, is > neither fresh nor untaught. It is the half-baked sterility of the > classroom > washed down with liberal doses of popular culture. > The media ransacks the arts, in its images, in its adverts, in > its copy, > in its jingles, in its little tunes and journalist’s jargon, it > continually > offers up faint shadows of the form and invention of real music, real > paintings, real words. All of us are subjected to this bombardment, which > both deadens our sensibilities and makes us fear what is not instant, > approachable, consumable. The solid presence of art demands from us > significant effort, an effort anathema to popular culture. Effort > of time, > effort of money, effort of study, effort of humility, effort of > imagination > have each been packed by the artist into the art. Is it so > unreasonable to > expect a percentage of that from us in return? I worry that to ask for > effort is to imply elitism, and the charge against art, that it > is elitist, > is to often the accuser’s defense against his or her own > bafflement. It is > quite close to the remark “Why can’t they all speak English?” , > which may be > why "elitist" is the favorite insult of the American and the British. > > But you may say, how can I know what is good and what is not > good? I may > wince at the cheap seascape over the mantelpiece but does that > necessarily > mean I should go to the Tate gallery and worship a floor full of > dyed rice? > Years ago, when I was living very briefly with a stockbroker who had a > good cellar, I asked him how I could learn about wine. > “Drink it” he said. > > > > > > piece, > mike > > p.s. if you want to read the whole thing (which was way too long > for me to > type) look up the book. > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org > For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org > >
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2001-05-12 15:26setre .you do realize that music is art as well. and that goes for graphic design too. >From: "My
From:
setre .
To:
,
Date:
Sat, 12 May 2001 11:26:35 -0400
Subject:
RE: [idm] understanding art (and all the other crap we are always yapping about.)
permalink · <F1105Bl8LgFuoe5cizl00004ad2@hotmail.com>
you do realize that music is art as well. and that goes for graphic design too.
quoted 11 lines From: "Myroslaw Bytz" <vzaem@humbledesign.com>>From: "Myroslaw Bytz" <vzaem@humbledesign.com> >To: "setre ." <drakt@hotmail.com>, <kromattik@aol.com>, ><dreadik@tokyo.com>, <idm@hyperreal.org> >Subject: RE: [idm] understanding art (and all the other crap we are always >yapping about.) >Date: Sat, 12 May 2001 10:50:30 -0400 > >fuck art. let's kill. > >vzaem >against the concept of "art"
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2001-05-13 16:51Myroslaw Bytzi prefer "expression." "art" brings it to an elitist level, imo, and i think it has paved
From:
Myroslaw Bytz
To:
setre . ,
Date:
Sun, 13 May 2001 12:51:51 -0400
Subject:
RE: [idm] understanding art (and all the other crap we are always yapping about.)
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RE: [idm] understanding art (and all the other crap we are always yapping about.)
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i prefer "expression." "art" brings it to an elitist level, imo, and i think it has paved the way for people like britney spears, spice girls, etc. (goes back farther than that, but they are a direct link) to take advantage of the formula of "art" for money's sake. it's deeper than all this but i don't know if i'd want to litter the list with all that. vzaem
quoted 31 lines -----Original Message-----> -----Original Message----- > From: setre . [mailto:drakt@hotmail.com] > Sent: Saturday, May 12, 2001 11:27 AM > To: idm@hyperreal.org; vzaem@humbledesign.com > Subject: RE: [idm] understanding art (and all the other crap we are > always yapping about.) > > > > you do realize that music is art as well. and that goes for > graphic design > too. > > > >From: "Myroslaw Bytz" <vzaem@humbledesign.com> > >To: "setre ." <drakt@hotmail.com>, <kromattik@aol.com>, > ><dreadik@tokyo.com>, <idm@hyperreal.org> > >Subject: RE: [idm] understanding art (and all the other crap we > are always > >yapping about.) > >Date: Sat, 12 May 2001 10:50:30 -0400 > > > >fuck art. let's kill. > > > >vzaem > >against the concept of "art" > > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com > >
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2001-05-14 03:05Lander--- Myroslaw Bytz <vzaem@humbledesign.com> wrote: > i prefer "expression." "art" brings it
From:
Lander
To:
Date:
Sun, 13 May 2001 20:05:47 -0700 (PDT)
Subject:
RE: [idm] understanding art (and all the other crap we are always yapping about.)
Reply to:
RE: [idm] understanding art (and all the other crap we are always yapping about.)
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--- Myroslaw Bytz <vzaem@humbledesign.com> wrote:
quoted 8 lines i prefer "expression." "art" brings it to an elitist level, imo, and i> i prefer "expression." "art" brings it to an elitist level, imo, and i > think it has paved the way for people like britney spears, spice girls, > etc. > (goes back farther than that, but they are a direct link) to take > advantage > of the formula of "art" for money's sake. it's deeper than all this but > i > don't know if i'd want to litter the list with all that.
Oh most respected Vzaem, I gotta disagree. How is creative expression different from art? How does calling music "art" make it elitist? How would its being elitist make Britney Spears rich? Art doesn't have formulas; science has formulas. Certain genres of art have rules to follow in order to stay within that genre, but if you're trying to write a rock song with paint on canvas your result may not be rock music but it will probably still be considered art. Come to think of it, it might end up IDM. Heh. Computers follow formulas and spit out a result, people create art. If Britney's songwriting team is simply plugging in random numbers into a songwriting equation of some sort, then they are not making art and we don't have to worry about it. But I don't see how it's possible for a human, or even a committee of humans to write a piece of music without some kind of creativity involved. Perhaps Britney Spears is just a vocal athelete of sorts making money off of the work of artists, but that don't mean it ain't art. Using B.S. and the Spice Girls as a reason not to call music art is like refusing to ever use cars because some people choose to drive them over cliffs! Zzb ===== __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org
2001-05-14 06:46Myroslaw Bytz> --- Myroslaw Bytz <vzaem@humbledesign.com> wrote: > > i prefer "expression." "art" bring
From:
Myroslaw Bytz
To:
Lander ,
Date:
Mon, 14 May 2001 02:46:00 -0400
Subject:
RE: [idm] understanding art (and all the other crap we are always yapping about.)
Reply to:
RE: [idm] understanding art (and all the other crap we are always yapping about.)
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quoted 15 lines --- Myroslaw Bytz <vzaem@humbledesign.com> wrote:> --- Myroslaw Bytz <vzaem@humbledesign.com> wrote: > > i prefer "expression." "art" brings it to an elitist level, imo, and i > > think it has paved the way for people like britney spears, spice girls, > > etc. > > (goes back farther than that, but they are a direct link) to take > > advantage > > of the formula of "art" for money's sake. it's deeper than all this but > > i > > don't know if i'd want to litter the list with all that. > > Oh most respected Vzaem, > > I gotta disagree. How is creative expression different from art? How > does calling music "art" make it elitist? How would its being elitist > make Britney Spears rich?
art is a term differentiating expression from itself. calling music art does not "make it" anything. art by definition is elitist, since it does separate itself from mere expression. as in, i could paint a picture and make thousands of dollars for it, but would anyone really pay me to stand in their house and express myself by talking all day? probably not. fact is, there are forms of expression that are generally recognized as being "better" in some way than others. these forms don't have much of a basis for being "better," other than the fact that people think and have thought they are so. now to the getting rich question. britney spears is doing nothing new. others before her have gotten rich because they did they same thing. wear a bunch of makeup, allude to sex a whole lot, wear skimpy clothes, talk about boys and make sure you have an attitude. if you were driven, you too could make as much money as she does or n'sync does by being a clone of them, and of backstreet boys, new kids on the block, aaron carter, et cetera. it happens time and time again. now that in itself isn't all *that* bad. but the problem comes when people have been taught to worship "art" as giving some sort of inner experience or realization about themselves, which our society and most others do. the spice girls are not about singing from an inner need to; if there were no money in it for them, they would never have gotten into it. but there is, because all the disenchanted people need them to look to for guidance, and are willing to pay for it. the dilemma comes when you look at the things these people are saying. i doubt it gives any positive inner guidance to anyone, when britney spears says, oops i played with your heart. that's why i don't think artists should be paid more than it costs to produce the art.
quoted 4 lines Art doesn't have formulas; science has formulas. Certain genres of art> Art doesn't have formulas; science has formulas. Certain genres of art > have rules to follow in order to stay within that genre, but if you're > trying to write a rock song with paint on canvas your result may not be > rock music but it will probably still be considered art.
this is true.
quoted 2 lines Come to think of> Come to think of > it, it might end up IDM. Heh.
:)
quoted 10 lines Computers follow formulas and spit out a result, people create art. If> Computers follow formulas and spit out a result, people create art. If > Britney's songwriting team is simply plugging in random numbers into a > songwriting equation of some sort, then they are not making art and we > don't have to worry about it. But I don't see how it's possible for a > human, or even a committee of humans to write a piece of music without > some kind of creativity involved. Perhaps Britney Spears is just a vocal > athelete of sorts making money off of the work of artists, but that don't > mean it ain't art. Using B.S. and the Spice Girls as a reason not to call > music art is like refusing to ever use cars because some people choose to > drive them over cliffs!
it's nothing like that. listen, i just disagree with the separation of art and expression. i think that the concept of art, perhaps moreso than any other factor, makes the population disenchanted and lost, with only a slew of misleading symbols to guide them. it's like a religious parable with no point, no moral. vzaem
quoted 10 lines __________________________________________________> __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices > http://auctions.yahoo.com/ > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org > For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org > >
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2001-05-14 07:08Peter Schrockon 5/13/01 11:46 PM, Myroslaw Bytz at vzaem@humbledesign.com wrote: > but the problem come
From:
Peter Schrock
To:
anyone and everyone and
Date:
Mon, 14 May 2001 00:08:10 -0700
Subject:
Re: [idm] understanding art (and all the other crap we are always yapping about.)
Reply to:
RE: [idm] understanding art (and all the other crap we are always yapping about.)
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on 5/13/01 11:46 PM, Myroslaw Bytz at vzaem@humbledesign.com wrote:
quoted 3 lines but the problem comes when people have been taught to> but the problem comes when people have been taught to > worship "art" as giving some sort of inner experience or realization about > themselves, which our society and most others do.
Sometimes that is what art does to people, but I agree, it isn't based on the inner experience of those who experience someones art. it is all art cause it is all expression.
quoted 3 lines the spice girls are not> the spice girls are not > about singing from an inner need to; if there were no money in it for them, > they would never have gotten into it.
Are you sure about this, i mean, just as clueless some of these people might be about the reason for doing music, some of them actually do it cause they like music. Some of them got recognized for their desire to sing, I doubt they actually "looked" at someone and said, "who cares if they can't sing, we will make them a star". There had to have been something that triggered them to desire their ability, whether we think it is good or bad. I mean, yeah they are doing it for the wrong reasons, but who wouldn't love to get paid to sit in their home and all day do what they love to do most. I wouldn't have to be working my job, rather, spend all my time writting new music all day, and then get paid for it. Doesn't sound like a bad idea to me.
quoted 5 lines but there is, because all the> but there is, because all the > disenchanted people need them to look to for guidance, and are willing to > pay for it. the dilemma comes when you look at the things these people are > saying. i doubt it gives any positive inner guidance to anyone, when > britney spears says, oops i played with your heart.
sad to say, but some people i know are dillusional enough to believe that there is a message that speaks to them. maybe not to you specifically, or to me for that matter, but i know people who say it actually speaks to them in ways i do not understand.
quoted 2 lines that's why i don't> that's why i don't > think artists should be paid more than it costs to produce the art.
this is true. but how do you pay for the time invested in it? someone had to write the stuff, good or bad! Peter "Pachinko" Ý - http://www.mp3.com/pachinko - --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org
2001-05-14 07:32Myroslaw Bytzthat someone, provided he/she had an inner need to express it, would find the time anyway.
From:
Myroslaw Bytz
To:
Peter Schrock , anyone and everyone and
Date:
Mon, 14 May 2001 03:32:14 -0400
Subject:
RE: [idm] understanding art
Reply to:
Re: [idm] understanding art (and all the other crap we are always yapping about.)
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that someone, provided he/she had an inner need to express it, would find the time anyway. i worked three jobs at one point in my life, and still had the strength and will to create music. if there is no "i'm too tired to express myself or do what i love" then it is serving a positive purpose for you, and probably others... in other words, not having the time to invest in it should not be an issue; you find the time, by any means necessary, or wither away and/or compromise yourself. I'd love to get paid a bunch for sitting around and making music, but firstly, i think it would compromise, no matter to what degree, my freedom of expression, and secondly, it isn't necessary to my expression that money be involved, unlike some so-called artists. vzaem
quoted 19 lines that's why i don't> > that's why i don't > > think artists should be paid more than it costs to produce the art. > > > this is true. but how do you pay for the time invested in it? > someone had > to write the stuff, good or bad! > > > Peter "Pachinko" Ý > - http://www.mp3.com/pachinko - > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org > For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org > >
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2001-05-14 23:54Peter Schrockon 5/14/01 12:32 AM, Myroslaw Bytz at vzaem@humbledesign.com wrote: > that someone, provid
From:
Peter Schrock
To:
anyone and everyone and
Date:
Mon, 14 May 2001 16:54:24 -0700
Subject:
Re: [idm] understanding art
Reply to:
RE: [idm] understanding art
permalink · <B725BE40.1483%pachinko74@mac.com>
on 5/14/01 12:32 AM, Myroslaw Bytz at vzaem@humbledesign.com wrote:
quoted 13 lines that someone, provided he/she had an inner need to express it, would find> that someone, provided he/she had an inner need to express it, would find > the time anyway. i worked three jobs at one point in my life, and still had > the strength and will to create music. if there is no "i'm too tired to > express myself or do what i love" then it is serving a positive purpose for > you, and probably others... in other words, not having the time to invest in > it should not be an issue; you find the time, by any means necessary, or > wither away and/or compromise yourself. I'd love to get paid a bunch for > sitting around and making music, but firstly, i think it would compromise, > no matter to what degree, my freedom of expression, and secondly, it isn't > necessary to my expression that money be involved, unlike some so-called > artists. > > vzaem
This is all very true, I too once had three jobs and decided I needed to compromise to one in order to make time for music. I don't mind working a job while writting music, it actually gives me a reason to write music. I just wish i could get paid so i could do more of it, if you know what mean. :-p Peter "Pachinko" Ý - http://www.mp3.com/pachinko - --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org
2001-05-14 06:35Peter Schrockyeah, I find it kind of ironic when someone like britney says what she does is art, really
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Peter Schrock
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anyone and everyone and
Date:
Sun, 13 May 2001 23:35:38 -0700
Subject:
Re: [idm] understanding art (and all the other crap we are always yapping about.)
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RE: [idm] understanding art (and all the other crap we are always yapping about.)
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yeah, I find it kind of ironic when someone like britney says what she does is art, really it's a form of expression. but then again, isn't that what art is? an expression? I don't know, i am kind of torn on the work "art", it's seems so diluted these days. on 5/13/01 9:51 AM, Myroslaw Bytz at vzaem@humbledesign.com wrote:
quoted 7 lines i prefer "expression." "art" brings it to an elitist level, imo, and i> i prefer "expression." "art" brings it to an elitist level, imo, and i > think it has paved the way for people like britney spears, spice girls, etc. > (goes back farther than that, but they are a direct link) to take advantage > of the formula of "art" for money's sake. it's deeper than all this but i > don't know if i'd want to litter the list with all that. > > vzaem
Peter "Pachinko" Ý - http://www.mp3.com/pachinko - --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org
2001-05-14 12:20R. LimOn Sun, 13 May 2001, Peter Schrock wrote: > yeah, I find it kind of ironic when someone li
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R. Lim
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Date:
Mon, 14 May 2001 08:20:43 -0400 (EDT)
Subject:
[idm] art/music
Reply to:
Re: [idm] understanding art (and all the other crap we are always yapping about.)
permalink · <Pine.BSI.4.05L.10105140755270.20452-100000@escape.com>
On Sun, 13 May 2001, Peter Schrock wrote:
quoted 4 lines yeah, I find it kind of ironic when someone like britney says what she does> yeah, I find it kind of ironic when someone like britney says what she does > is art, really it's a form of expression. but then again, isn't that what > art is? an expression? I don't know, i am kind of torn on the work "art", > it's seems so diluted these days.
Art, expression, whatever. I don't really follow Britney Spears' media presence all that much, but I'd be surprised if she identified with being an Artist. I imagine she sees herself as a pure entertainer (like Cex) and a humble Christian doing God's work. If all expression is art, then does this mean that that the IDM list is a museum? screw you all, -rob --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org
2001-05-15 00:24Peter SchrockWell, I can honestly say that I have never heard her say it, but it was an example to get
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Peter Schrock
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anyone and everyone and
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Mon, 14 May 2001 17:24:49 -0700
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Re: [idm] art/music
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[idm] art/music
permalink · <B725C561.1487%pachinko74@mac.com>
Well, I can honestly say that I have never heard her say it, but it was an example to get the point across, I am sure more people on this list would be offended if she did say that than those on this list who wouldn't mind. I agree, she is an entertainer, just like the backstreet boys, n'sync, spice girls and all of them, but that in itself can be considered art because it is a form of expression. I can hang with her calling herself a Christian, but I find it hard to believe she believes she is doing Gods work. I mean, is she actually doing what God wants by selling herself on her videos the way she does? I don't know, just an opinion, but who am I. IDM list a museum?..., sure, why not, it is collective like a museum. on 5/14/01 5:20 AM, R. Lim at rlim@escape.com wrote:
quoted 5 lines Art, expression, whatever. I don't really follow Britney Spears' media> Art, expression, whatever. I don't really follow Britney Spears' media > presence all that much, but I'd be surprised if she identified with being > an Artist. I imagine she sees herself as a pure entertainer (like Cex) > and a humble Christian doing God's work. If all expression is art, then > does this mean that that the IDM list is a museum?
Peter "Pachinko" Ý - http://www.mp3.com/pachinko - --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org
2001-05-12 21:32Ron Jeremy>From: "Myroslaw Bytz" <vzaem@humbledesign.com> >fuck art. let's kill. Nivek does have suc
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Ron Jeremy
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, , , ,
Date:
Sat, 12 May 2001 14:32:46 -0700
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RE: [idm] understanding art (and all the other crap we are always yapping about.)
permalink · <F11eCXjiGHmNITat5N500004d13@hotmail.com>
quoted 1 line From: "Myroslaw Bytz" <vzaem@humbledesign.com>>From: "Myroslaw Bytz" <vzaem@humbledesign.com>
quoted 1 line fuck art. let's kill.>fuck art. let's kill.
Nivek does have such interesting shirts, doesn't he. _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org
2001-05-14 13:13leafcutter>> i prefer "expression." "art" brings it to an elitist level, imo, and i >> think it has
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leafcutter
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Mon, 14 May 2001 14:13:15 +0100
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RE: [idm] understanding art (and all the other crap we are always yapping about.)
permalink · <B725987B.1E9%leafcutter.john@virgin.net>
quoted 31 lines i prefer "expression." "art" brings it to an elitist level, imo, and i>> i prefer "expression." "art" brings it to an elitist level, imo, and i >> think it has paved the way for people like britney spears, spice girls, >> etc. >> (goes back farther than that, but they are a direct link) to take >> advantage >> of the formula of "art" for money's sake. it's deeper than all this but >> i >> don't know if i'd want to litter the list with all that. > > Oh most respected Vzaem, > > I gotta disagree. How is creative expression different from art? How > does calling music "art" make it elitist? How would its being elitist > make Britney Spears rich? > Art doesn't have formulas; science has formulas. Certain genres of art > have rules to follow in order to stay within that genre, but if you're > trying to write a rock song with paint on canvas your result may not be > rock music but it will probably still be considered art. Come to think of > it, it might end up IDM. Heh. > Computers follow formulas and spit out a result, people create art. If > Britney's songwriting team is simply plugging in random numbers into a > songwriting equation of some sort, then they are not making art and we > don't have to worry about it. But I don't see how it's possible for a > human, or even a committee of humans to write a piece of music without > some kind of creativity involved. Perhaps Britney Spears is just a vocal > athelete of sorts making money off of the work of artists, but that don't > mean it ain't art. Using B.S. and the Spice Girls as a reason not to call > music art is like refusing to ever use cars because some people choose to > drive them over cliffs! > > Zzb
I'd like to point out that regarding certain types of music esp. rock & pop as valid 'art' forms it is only a relatively recent phenomenon. Most rock and pop artists of the 60's and early 70's would have been offended if their work was spoken of as art. It is mainly due to the efforts of the prog-rockers that some people began applying artistic ideas to popular music. The 70's saw an explosion in conceptual art, which crudely speaking was supposed to be totally ideas based i.e.. you could not buy and sell works like paintings or sculptures. In the 70's you also see an emergence of 'sound artists' and relatively high profile collaborations between artists and musicians which helped to unify sound and art in the consosness. It is also worth noting that many of these developments in artistic thinking and endeavour are not recognised or 'understood' until many years after the event (art historian's like to think about things for at least 10 years so they can construct 'art history'). Personally I think it's a waste of time to categorise societies output into art and non art objects - as for elitism yes art has an established hierarchy as does music, sport and politics and is inherently elitist (it is certainly regarded as such by many people). As with all these discussions it all comes down to your personal interpretation - it's art if you think it's art etc. But remember just because you regard a thing as art it does not make it any good. john. _________________________________ _________________________________ Leafcutter Release info... <><>ZEAGMA 3 track 7" (ZIQ036, grey label) will be available from the usual outlets from April the 30th. <><>I have a new track on the CD version of the speedy j/µ-ziq re-mix comp 'Slag Boom Van Loon So Soon' (ZIQ007CD) which also features mixes by Boards of Canada (x2), µ-Ziq, Tipper, Horse Opera, Four Tet, Pole, Matmos, and Coil. It will be out sometime around May 29th. <><>Also in the pipeline a re-mix of Electric Company on on Tigerbeat6 and a track on their forthcoming double CD compilation. Live info... <><>The proposed tour if Germany with Capitol k is going ahead - we'll be visiting the following cities: Dresden - Scheune - 25th may, Chemnitz - Voxxx - 26th may, Hamburg - Golden Pudel - 27th may, Berlin - Bastard - 29th may. www.leafcutterjohn.co.uk www.planet-mu.com _________________________________ _________________________________ --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org
2001-05-14 13:28WezWhy all this fuss over one word? Art is a word like any other, only it is put around so mu
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Wez
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Mon, 14 May 2001 14:28:34 +0100 (BST)
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RE: [idm] understanding art (and all the other crap we are always yapping about.)
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RE: [idm] understanding art (and all the other crap we are always yapping about.)
permalink · <20010514132834.14370.qmail@web3701.mail.yahoo.com>
Why all this fuss over one word? Art is a word like any other, only it is put around so much it has lost much of its meaning. Someone mentioned the fact that the idm list might as well be a museum. Why not? I personally don't regard it in such a way, but then I'm not always right. People get from artistic expression what they want, if they don't the tendency is not to like it. This is not wrong, as if we all understood every piece of work, there would be no catergorization. IDM wouldn't work if everyone liked and understood it. The bottom line is that artists rarely refer to their own work as 'art'. It is a painting, or a song, or a poem. Appreciate what you will, it is one of our few freedoms. Peace {insert witty/amusing/tiresome comment here} ;) ____________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.co.uk address at http://mail.yahoo.co.uk or your free @yahoo.ie address at http://mail.yahoo.ie --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org
2001-05-14 13:55R. LimOn Mon, 14 May 2001, leafcutter wrote: > as valid 'art' forms it is only a relatively rece
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R. Lim
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Mon, 14 May 2001 09:55:02 -0400 (EDT)
Subject:
RE: [idm] understanding art (and all the other crap we are always yapping about.)
Reply to:
RE: [idm] understanding art (and all the other crap we are always yapping about.)
permalink · <Pine.BSI.4.05L.10105140922190.20452-100000@escape.com>
On Mon, 14 May 2001, leafcutter wrote:
quoted 9 lines as valid 'art' forms it is only a relatively recent phenomenon. Most rock> as valid 'art' forms it is only a relatively recent phenomenon. Most rock > and pop artists of the 60's and early 70's would have been offended if their > work was spoken of as art. It is mainly due to the efforts of the > prog-rockers that some people began applying artistic ideas to popular > music. The 70's saw an explosion in conceptual art, which crudely speaking > was supposed to be totally ideas based i.e.. you could not buy and sell > works like paintings or sculptures. In the 70's you also see an emergence of > 'sound artists' and relatively high profile collaborations between artists > and musicians which helped to unify sound and art in the consosness. It is
Yeah, I guess overall I am in agreement, though I'd quibble with the details (the rock auteur was already present in the 60s, c.f. Bob Dylan; what we know today as prog rock was not so much about the application of general artistic ideas as much as specifically (and worn out) Classical ones- though you could locate an excellent example of what you're referencing in the Velvet Underground; what we now know as sound art/conceptual art had its origins in the Fluxus movement- also the sixties). Basically, popular culture has never really gotten past that most infamous of decades, but on the other hand its legacy has been kicking around so long that most people have taken it as granted and forgotten that it was ever different. (You could also say the same thing about high art as well).
quoted 4 lines also worth noting that many of these developments in artistic thinking and> also worth noting that many of these developments in artistic thinking and > endeavour are not recognised or 'understood' until many years after the > event (art historian's like to think about things for at least 10 years so > they can construct 'art history').
Right, that's the "history" bit. The future legitimizes the present and thus transforms it into the past, but we don't know what that is until we get there.
quoted 2 lines Personally I think it's a waste of time to categorise societies output> Personally I think it's a waste of time to categorise societies output > into art and non art objects - as for
I agree that this is not an essential activity (unless you're a stamp collector, thank you Ernest Rutherford), but I think it's important to be able to recognize the distinction lest we forget what the point of it all is. Equally important is the ability to distinguish good art from the bad (or rather, the successful from the unsuccessful- I keep forgetting there is no good and bad anymore). -rob --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org
2001-05-16 19:58butt chowderTo me, art is just the product of human imagination. I don't think Britney Spears' music i
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butt chowder
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Wed, 16 May 2001 12:58:19 -0700 (PDT)
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RE: [idm] understanding art (and all the other crap we are always yapping about.)
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RE: [idm] understanding art (and all the other crap we are always yapping about.)
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To me, art is just the product of human imagination. I don't think Britney Spears' music is NOT art just because it's lacking in originality or style, it's just not the kind of art I'm interested in. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org
2001-05-14 14:11Kurt Hoffman>I'd like to point out that regarding certain types of music esp. rock & pop >as valid 'ar
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Kurt Hoffman
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leafcutter
Cc:
Date:
Mon, 14 May 2001 10:11:33 -0400
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RE: [idm] understanding art (and all the other crap we are always yapping about.)
permalink · <p05100302b7258eae215e@[216.220.110.98]>
quoted 2 lines I'd like to point out that regarding certain types of music esp. rock & pop>I'd like to point out that regarding certain types of music esp. rock & pop >as valid 'art' forms it is only a relatively recent phenomenon.
quoted 2 lines It is mainly due to the efforts of the> It is mainly due to the efforts of the >prog-rockers that some people began applying artistic ideas to popular
music. nah....it's been going on forever. european classical music has forever been culling vital ideas/melodies from popular music and "elevating" it to high art, sometimes selling it back to a popular audience. jazz was the pop music of the 20's, and one of the things about the Ellington band, besides their ability to generate hit singles and pack nightclubs, was the way Ellington was decreed a "composer" in the high art sense. as early as the mid-20's he was getting gigs in concert halls in Europe and getting taken seriously. Not, of course, as seriously as the leading lights of the classical music world, but I think the analogy to prog rock would stand. For better or worse, Ellington responded by writing a series of extended works (his "suites") for presentation at concerts. bebop evolved out of popular styles, but I'm certain that's what Chuck Berry was referring to in "Rock and Roll Music" when he complains about 'modern jazz' taking a simple melody and making it 'like a symphony'. he was reflecting, unsympathetically (on behalf of his teenage audience) on the high art aspirations of bebop. I don't know what the first art-rock project is, but there's a ton of mid-sixties stuff that gets there a half-decade before the 70's prog rockers. thinking of Brian Wilson's "Smile" project, the Velvet Underground to name but two, and, on the more underground side the electric LaMonte Young and the Terry Riley stuff. k --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org
2001-05-14 19:42setre .i just disagree with the separation of art >and expression. when did this happen? is this
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setre .
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,
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Mon, 14 May 2001 15:42:37 -0400
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RE: [idm] understanding art (and all the other crap we are always yapping about.)
permalink · <F117VZef6MGHEsZZPX000006922@hotmail.com>
i just disagree with the separation of art
quoted 1 line and expression.>and expression.
when did this happen? is this just a personal thing or was it ever publically announced that art is no longer expression? i think that the concept of art, perhaps moreso than any
quoted 2 lines other factor, makes the population disenchanted and lost, with only a slew>other factor, makes the population disenchanted and lost, with only a slew >of misleading symbols to guide them.
oh come on, more than anyother factor? and which population are we talking about here? in some countries people would kill to have the chance to speak or represent how they feel through some type of creative form, but most likely would be stoned to death. please explain any moment in history when a society (an one) has been lost or disenchanted because of the "concept of art". _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org
2001-05-14 20:48atomly["setre ." <drakt@hotmail.com>] > > i just disagree with the separation of art > > and exp
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atomly
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Mon, 14 May 2001 15:48:26 -0500
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Re: [idm] understanding art (and all the other crap we are always yapping about.)
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RE: [idm] understanding art (and all the other crap we are always yapping about.)
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["setre ." <drakt@hotmail.com>]
quoted 5 lines i just disagree with the separation of art> > i just disagree with the separation of art > > and expression. > > when did this happen? is this just a personal thing or was it ever > publically announced that art is no longer expression?
Yea, it was publicly announced as a part of "post-modernism." -- :: atomly :: atomly@atomly.com | atomly@my2way.com http://www.atomly.com/ | 877.741.3571 --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org
2001-05-14 20:55setre .ok but who ever said that ALL art is postmodernism or that all artists now must practice t
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setre .
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,
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Mon, 14 May 2001 16:55:30 -0400
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Re: [idm] understanding art (and all the other crap we are always yapping about.)
permalink · <F15k2UfxhUIBSIeSOm300006bc1@hotmail.com>
ok but who ever said that ALL art is postmodernism or that all artists now must practice this? yes, it did reject tradition and the "single serving artist" but who ever said that every "artist" must be this way. im not trying to defend or object to any argument, i just dont believe that there is one clasification that an artist must fall into. i personally dont believe i am an artist but that doesnt mean that i am any less or more than a person who does. by saying that art is a farce and artists are fake is kind of being a bit of an elitist youreself. its not good to overrate anything, but undermining is just as bad. if their is a person out there who does believe that they are an artist and that they are expressing themselves thru it, then who the hell am i or anyone else to tell them they are wrong. i might not like it but, again, it doesnt mean i am any better than them.
quoted 25 lines From: atomly <atomly@atomly.com>>From: atomly <atomly@atomly.com> >To: idm@hyperreal.org >Subject: Re: [idm] understanding art (and all the other crap we are always >yapping about.) >Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 15:48:26 -0500 > >["setre ." <drakt@hotmail.com>] > > > i just disagree with the separation of art > > > and expression. > > > > when did this happen? is this just a personal thing or was it ever > > publically announced that art is no longer expression? > >Yea, it was publicly announced as a part of "post-modernism." > >-- >:: atomly :: > >atomly@atomly.com | atomly@my2way.com >http://www.atomly.com/ | 877.741.3571 > >--------------------------------------------------------------------- >To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org >For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org >
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2001-05-14 22:23Emile L'Eplattenier>["setre ." <drakt@hotmail.com>] >> > i just disagree with the separation of art >> > and
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Emile L'Eplattenier
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atomly ,
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Mon, 14 May 2001 17:23:55 -0500
Subject:
Re: [idm] understanding art (and all the other crap we are always yapping about.)
permalink · <0GDC0095KH3FL0@cmcl2.nyu.edu>
quoted 8 lines ["setre ." <drakt@hotmail.com>]>["setre ." <drakt@hotmail.com>] >> > i just disagree with the separation of art >> > and expression. >> >> when did this happen? is this just a personal thing or was it ever >> publically announced that art is no longer expression? > >Yea, it was publicly announced as a part of "post-modernism."
Art in postmodernity is still expression it just "expresses" a way more complex view of the world. Think about the difference btw early Miles Davis and Bitches Brew era Miles Davis. Rigid structure vs controlled chaos. In the 50's-60's the world was thought of as an essentially structured place. Artists expressed this. After the 70's though the consensus was different -media saturation, global communications etc. gave the average person a more multifaceted view of the world. Artists expressed this. Punk, electric Miles etc. Which one is more valid as art? Early Miles or bitches brew? BUT to say that every artist in a given era must represent the world in the dominant way is silly. Early house/Techno was not postmodern. Bob Ross is not postmodern. By the definition of postmodern(see the condition of postmodernity by David Harvey) William S. Burroughs is the ultimate example of the post modern artist although he wrote most of his books during the height of modernism. Emile L'Eplattenier | p: 631-261-6030 | egl204@is9.nyu.edu | emilel@nerve.com "Style is the fringe benefit of intention."-Julian Schnabel --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org