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Re: [idm] fascio, free, fizzarum

4 messages · 3 participants · spans 2 days · search this subject
2001-01-11 01:49---(SunspOt)... Re: [idm] fascio, free, fizzarum
2001-01-11 23:41Matthew Korfhage [idm] fascio, free, fizzarum
2001-01-11 23:53Phillip C Hertz Re: [idm] fascio, free, fizzarum
2001-01-12 18:05Matthew Korfhage Re: [idm] fascio, free, fizzarum
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2001-01-11 01:49---(SunspOt)...>although try telling that to a bone fide hippie (who, due to their >depressing lack of ir
From:
---(SunspOt)...
To:
Matthew Korfhage
Cc:
idm@hyperreal.org
Date:
Wed, 10 Jan 2001 20:49:38 -0500
Subject:
Re: [idm] fascio, free, fizzarum
permalink · <200101120049.QAA18272@gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net>
quoted 3 lines although try telling that to a bone fide hippie (who, due to their>although try telling that to a bone fide hippie (who, due to their >depressing lack of irony, are usually far more intolerant of *actual* >differences or deeply-held convictions than are most suburban housewives).
Amen. I went to Vassar,a bastion of (armchair) liberalism, and I kid you not, there were "tree-huggers" who would literally walk barefoot in the dead of winter in order to maintain conformity with the ideology (and bandwagon subculture) of "free thought". --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org
2001-01-11 23:41Matthew Korfhage"Gause, Brian" <bgause@SECTORBASE.COM> wrote: <<<<<1. Uniting the people isn't good or bad
From:
Matthew Korfhage
To:
Date:
Thu, 11 Jan 2001 15:41:22 -0800
Subject:
[idm] fascio, free, fizzarum
permalink · <F274tcYi38Ea7GzSWMv00013bca@hotmail.com>
"Gause, Brian" <bgause@SECTORBASE.COM> wrote: <<<<<1. Uniting the people isn't good or bad. It is simply uniting. In 1861, one half of the United States was united in the belief that black men and women imported from Africa should be owned by white men and women in the Southern USA. The other half, of course, was united against this belief. Well, it seems that when you have two halves of the same country united to opposite sides of the same belief...well, they kill each other then. Read your Human Being User's Manual and you'll discover on page three that, and I quote here, "Dying is bad. You should make an effort not to die and you should not cause others to die." Uniting people is only as good as the cause which unites them.>>>>>> I think that most people would agree that two sides "uniting against each other" could be more accurately defined as *dis*unity, or division, hence Lincoln's pithy little line about a "nation divided against itself". There are other reasons why unity isn't *necessarily* a good thing, even when not viewed in terms of oppositions, e.g. Kundera's existentialist cult-of-authenticity bit in The Unbearable Lightness of Being about actual evil residing not in what people are saying when they hold a mass demonstration or parade, but rather in act of holding the parade. There's also a certain loss or dehumanization involved in dissolution into a mass, although try telling that to a bone fide hippie (who, due to their depressing lack of irony, are usually far more intolerant of *actual* differences or deeply-held convictions than are most suburban housewives). <<<<<2. Fascism cannot control the economy. If you study it a bit, the current economic boom in the US will show you just how little "good economies" are the result of government intervention. If that doesn't convince you, look at Syria or a hundred other government controlled economies around the world. Economies are strong only when they are free.>>>>> Not to weigh in on the side of fascism (really, not to), but that last sentence is one of the larger (and more popular) solecisms floating around these days. Anyone who thinks unregulated laissez-faire and "free trade" is the answer to the world's economic problems need only take a quick gander at the ides of the 1920's. Pure free-market systems are subject to radical turbulence to a degree greater than most populations are willing to suffer, despite what the current New Business rhetoric would have one believe. It's quite possible that Alan Greenspan, for instance, in his tireless efforts to keep real wages down (inflation is the ultimate enemy, remember?), has little real impact on the infrastructure of the economy but is rather merely a skillful manipulator of the confidence of market speculators, but it's hard to doubt that the Reserve Board, along with any number of other regulatory bodies currently in operation, can serve a function as a brake or safety measure in a capital-based economy. Of course, no one really wants to get rid of the Fed-- they just want "free trade", and at all costs-- however, "free" economies are only necessarily good according to some very selective indicators, and are definitely not always beneficial locally or societally. The "booming" deregulated speculative economy of yesteryear had *huge* faultlines that are only now beginning to show up in our vaguely misguided selection of economic indexes. Fascism is, of course, the other side of the coin, and leads to some interesting problems of its own. And the fascist system *does* have its good points for the great middle (e.g. Nixon's silent majority), usually at the expense of any and all minorities. NYC mayor Guiliani's repressive administrative and policing tactics have been remarkably effective in keeping the streets safe for "repectable people", and his approval ratings are extremely high even as he tries to shut down art shows and as his police brutalize racial minorities and the homeless. The majority of New Yorkers feel, despite all this, that they are better off. Hitler was also well-liked. And yes, autocratic governments can also achieve spectaculary efficient economies-- this can be easy to accomplish when part of the population is expendable and another is militarized. (Using Syria or a third-world country as an counterexample to the idea that oppressive dictators can engineer good economies is disingenuous at best, BTW.) That fascism generally fails and sours is not unique to that system; the only reason capitalism seems to survive as it does is because it is terrifically anarchic and protean-- you'll note that Fordism is dead as a doornail, as is the industrial worker model. Unfortunately, whereas large-scale economic/social transitions in capitalist/republican systems tend to occur gradually (although possibly through violence as well, cf. race riots, violent disputes between striking laborors and pinkertons), fascism is usually ended by coups, bloodshed, or anarchy of succession following the death of the leader. While there may have been no point in bringing up the fact that fascism may have its benefits (inferior to its detriments, by most reckonings)--especially among such a nice bunch of capitalists and/or lefties--the statement *could* have been received in the spirit in which it was intended, if not simply ignored. (Note that this last statement does not necessarily draw reference to Brian, whose response here was measured and intelligent). Oh wait... idmlist idmlist idmlist.... So... I like Fizzarum well enough myself, and have been casually listening to the new album on a relatively regular basis as of late, but they sort of remind me of what would happen if Eno decided to be Autechre. It's pleasant, but it fades almost immediately into the general musical background. Of course, this is coming from a big Funkst?rung fan, so I don't know how defensible the complaint is, if that was a complaint. Cheers, M. ----- Made with affection by distrustful lovers _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org
2001-01-11 23:53Phillip C HertzFunny that this is turning into a political forum. Not funny that Mr Korfhage believes eve
From:
Phillip C Hertz
To:
IDM
Date:
Thu, 11 Jan 2001 17:53:09 -0600
Subject:
Re: [idm] fascio, free, fizzarum
permalink · <3A5E4765.2E64D9D5@map-point.com>
Funny that this is turning into a political forum. Not funny that Mr Korfhage believes everything they taught him in high school.
quoted 4 lines <<<<<1. Uniting the people isn't good or bad. It is simply uniting. In> <<<<<1. Uniting the people isn't good or bad. It is simply uniting. In 1861, > one half of the United States was united in the belief that black men and > women imported from Africa should be owned by white men and women in the > Southern USA. The other half, of course, was united against this belief.
Contrary to popular belief the war between the North and South was not about slavery. There were plenty of Southerners @ that time who didn't subscribe to the belief that non-white, non-European peoples were sub-human, and CERTAINLY plenty of Northerners who didn't oppose slavery. In case you think this is some kind of pinko rabble-rousing here's a short excerpt from the National Archives and Records Administration website. President Abraham Lincoln issued the Emancipation Proclamation on January 1, 1863, as the nation approached its third year of bloody civil war. The proclamation declared "that all persons held as slaves" within the rebellious states "are, and henceforward shall be free." Despite this expansive wording, the Emancipation Proclamation was limited in many ways. It applied only to states that had seceded from the Union, leaving slavery untouched in the loyal border states. It also expressly exempted parts of the Confederacy that had already come under Northern control. Most important, the freedom it promised depended upon Union military victory. Although the Emancipation Proclamation did not immediately free a single slave, it fundamentally transformed the character of the war. After January 1, 1863, every advance of federal troops expanded the domain of freedom. Moreover, the Proclamation announced the acceptance of black men into the Union Army and Navy, enabling the liberated to become liberators. Just remember that life, and history, is not quite so simple... And the guy in the white hat is not always as clean as he's like to make out...
2001-01-12 18:05Matthew KorfhageI'm not defending having written three pages worth of politico-babble on this list. I shou
From:
Matthew Korfhage
To:
Cc:
Date:
Fri, 12 Jan 2001 10:05:52 -0800
Subject:
Re: [idm] fascio, free, fizzarum
permalink · <F131aJkGuSKqGABtvNL00003aa8@hotmail.com>
I'm not defending having written three pages worth of politico-babble on this list. I should probably be slapped around for that. However, the text that you're responding to there wasn't written by me, and I personally made no reference to the causes of the Civil War, which--as we all learned in high school--was based more on the issue of states' rights than it was on slavery, although slavery was obviously a prominent component in the dispute over states' rights. You quoted the text I was responding to. Cheers, and I'll be good from now on. M. Phillip C Hertz <crosstalk@map-point.com> wrote:
quoted 16 lines Funny that this is turning into a political forum.>Funny that this is turning into a political forum. > >Not funny that Mr Korfhage believes everything they taught him in >high >school. > >><<<<<1. Uniting the people isn't good or bad. It is simply uniting. >>In >>1861, >>one half of the United States was united in the belief that black >>men >>and women imported from Africa should be owned by white men and >>women in >>the Southern USA. The other half, of course, was united >>against this >>belief. > >Contrary to popular belief the war between the North and South was >not >about slavery. There were plenty of Southerners @ that time who >didn't >subscribe to the belief that non-white, non-European peoples >were >sub-human, and CERTAINLY plenty of Northerners who didn't oppose >slavery.
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