IDM Mailing Archive

on 7/27/00 6:27 AM, DavidASim@aol.com at DavidASim@aol.com wrote:

quoted 17 lines The turntable on my stereo (think 70s, brushed aluminium) has finally packed

> The turntable on my stereo (think 70s, brushed aluminium) has finally packed > in, and I'm looking at getting myself a new turntable, with a view to getting > another one and a mixer at a later date. However, I have a few questions for > the collective brain: > Accepting that you get what you pay for, is there a degree of skill needed > before the difference becomes apparant? I mean, do £800 decks only become > truly necessary when you want to scratch, or are they simply better across > the board? > How much of an advantage is direct drive? > Given my nonexistant resources, what can you compromise on to save money? > Finally, I suppose, does anyone have any recommendations? > > I'm sorry if this isn't strictly on topic, but I know that a lot of people on > list DJ, and I really need some advice. > > Thanks > david

My advice is to only buy a Technics SL-1200. You will eventually end up having to buy Technics anyway, so don't waste your money buying some other cheaper brand. Years from now you will see that you saved money by buying Technics instead of something else. If you want to compromise on something to save money, buy a cheap mixer until your mixing and scratching skills improve. Trust me now and thank me later. Finally, here's an article by Turntablelab.com explaining all the reasons why should always only buy a Technics 1200... ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Why you should buy a 1200 before anything else. or how I learned to steal for a 12. ( for people who want to do more than listen to records ) ------------------------------------------------------------------------ 1) THE MOTOR : the torque (the drive) that the 1200 motor provides is essential for DJ manipulations. To put it in plain terms, the 1200 motor is strong. This torque allows for quicker startup and quicker spin rejuvenation. For example: 01 : the record is playing at a fixed speed 02 : you put your hand on the record. 03 : the spin slows down because of the weight of your hand. 04 : you let go.... Now on an inferior turntable, it will take a up to 3 seconds (a long time) to get back to the original fixed speed. With a 1200, it is almost instant. Once you try any type of turntable manipulation, you will see this quick response time is necessary. For beatmatching, a second can throw off your whole mix. For skratching it is simply essential. Take our word on it.   ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Direct Drive vs. Belt Drive. The 1200 runs on a magnetically powered engine. Basically, the engine is driven by magnets. Since it is a non-mechanical drive, this is the feature that allows you to manipulate the platter without wearing out the engine. While many turntables are listed as direct drive, the Technics' patented engine is the most reliable, accurate, and powerful. For DJing purposes avoid belt (mechanical) drive turntables. These turntables are not built for DJ use and the belts can snap and damage the engine. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ 2) SPEED CONTROL : the pitch control is precise on the 1200. Pitch control (the slide lever on the side of the turntable) controls the speed. You can increase the speed by +/-8%. This is a very technical/delicate feature (and also a very expensive feature). Many cheaper turntables offer pitch control but few really have precise pitch control. In many cases, on inferior turntables, the pitch control will loose it's accuracy quite easily. For example, you put the lever at +2, but it plays at +3. In some case, I have even seen inferior turntables play the "0" position inaccurately. This is very critical for beat matching. In order to match beats you need to have precise speed functions. Note: to check if your turntable is "0" accurate, check the circle pattern on the platter. If playing on the zero position and the larger circle seems to be not moving, your turntable is accurate.   ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Ever notice a DJ, when matching beats, constantly adjusting the pitch control? This is an advanced technique of beat matching that actually allows you to catch (match) beats very precisely using the pitch control and high torque motor of the 1200. For example, if one turntable is playing a beat at at 100 bpms and you want to bring in a song slightly slower at the same speed. You almost have the beats matched, but you need a little more precision. You push the slower beat up to catch up to the faster beat using the pitch control (ie moving it +2), then slow down to match the beat (ie moving it to +1). Then the beat is matched. All without having to touch the record. With inferior turntables, this type of beatmatching is impossible because their pitch controls do not respond as quickly as the 1200's. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ 3) SOLID CONSTRUCTION. The 1200 is arguably one of the most rugged electronic pieces ever created. The structure: The 1200 frame and faceplate is constructed of anodized metal. The base is molded from high density rubber (to prevent reverb). The drive engine is infamously durable and has been know to last indefinitely even with heavy usage.   ------------------------------------------------------------------------ A general rule for electronics (especially non-digital): Weight is equated for quality and durability. 1200s are heavy. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ 4) THE TONEARM : a specialized piece of equipment. The tonearm on the 1200 is designed to accommodate vibrations. Your parent's turntable tonearm does not. That is one main reason why Technics are fairly skip resistant. Coupled with a fully adjustable weighting system, tonearm height, and anti-skating, it is possible to achieve high tracking/non-skippability with any DJ cartridge. All the main components are formed from high grade steel. The "s" shape of the tone arm is actually a sound feature. It is difficult to fully explain, but the "s" shape allows the record to play the full groove.   ------------------------------------------------------------------------ An anti-skating note. Despite differing opinions, anti-skating for skratching purposes should be set at zero. Back cueing produces outside force, positive anti-skating also produces outside force. Put the two together and you have needle more likely to skip. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ 5) THE SOUND Unless you're a super-audiophile, the 1200 is as good as it gets. Just make sure you have a good cartridge. We know some audiophiles who use 1200s for everyday listening. Most radio stations use 1200s.   ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Did you know? Christopher Columbus is a damn blasted liar? ------------------------------------------------------------------------ 6) A DESIGN CLASSIC They haven't changed the design in years. So clean. Classic silver. A 1200 in any condition is as nice looking as strippers who aren't supposed to be strippers.   ------------------------------------------------------------------------ A fact about the 1200. Guaranteed the first months you have em you'll stare at them before you go to sleep. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ 7) AN OVERVIEW : 10 reasons why shouldn't buy an inferior turntable. 01 : they're made of plastic. 02 : even if you are highly skilled you will be limited by inferiors 03 : you will end up buying a 1200 anyway 04 : you 'll love your 12, any other you won't 05 : they skip like a mother 06 : can't pimp anything but a 12 07 : you'll feel cheated 08 : a 12 will last forever, jasper had his for over 8 years 09 : sound quality 10 : they just better   ------------------------------------------------------------------------ A survey. DJ groupies preferred DJs who use 1200s at an astonishing rate of 20 to 1. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ OUR ADVICE: save for a 1200. Buy one and hook up a shitty turntable in the other channel. Do whatever you can to save and buy another. Trust us. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ back to turntables shephrd@earthlink.net | "...thita NK;" "...mechanically reclaimed by autechre..." --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

Somebody at turntablelab.com wrote:

quoted 6 lines ------------------------------------------------------------

> ------------------------------------------------------------ > Why you should buy a 1200 before anything else. > ------------------------------------------------------------ > Direct Drive vs. Belt Drive. The 1200 runs on a magnetically > powered engine. Basically, the engine is driven by magnets. > Since it is a non-mechanical drive, this is the feature

note: i realize this was not written by an IDM lister. but as a mechanical engineer, i have to ask wtf? first of all, motors are powered by electrical energy, not magnets. they use electromagnetic forces to generate mechanical motion. they are indeed mechanical!

quoted 7 lines In many cases, on inferior turntables, the pitch control

> In many cases, on inferior turntables, the pitch control > will loose it's accuracy quite easily. For example, you put > the lever at +2, but it plays at +3. In some case, I have > even seen inferior turntables play the "0" position > inaccurately. This is very critical for beat matching. In > order to match beats you need to have precise speed > functions.

because the range and zero of the pitch adjust slider are adjusted by potentiometers, even a 1200 can lose accuracy. fortunately it's possible to open it up and tweak the settings (one has to remove a lot of screws to get at the pot that adjusts zero, but it's certainly better than having 2 zeros!)

quoted 2 lines 5) THE SOUND Unless you're a super-audiophile, the 1200 is

> 5) THE SOUND Unless you're a super-audiophile, the 1200 is > as good as it gets.

i would tend to argue this. since the motor shaft in a 1200 is directly connected to the platter, motor vibrations are picked up by the cartridge as noise. belt drive units generally sound better because the belt dampens some of those vibrations. another thing to keep in mind is that 1200s have no auto-return feature. so if you tend to put on ambient records late at night and pass out while they're playing, the needle will sit in the run-out groove all night long. not that i've ever done that :) phase np: visor (tom) --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

quoted 1 line Accepting that you get what you pay for, is there a degree of skill needed=20

>Accepting that you get what you pay for, is there a degree of skill needed=20

before the difference becomes apparant? I mean, do =A3800 decks only become=20 truly necessary when you want to scratch, or are they simply better across=20 the board? How much of an advantage is direct drive? If you're not planning to do any scratching, then direct drive isn't essential. I've had a pair of soundlabs for years and have managed some pretty good mixes on them. There are two other problems with non-direct drive though. Because they take about half a second to get up to full speed you can't push in the start of a track - even if you try to push it in at 33 manually it usually sounds a little bit wonky. This means you have to cut the record in about 4 bars or so after it's started. You cannot scratch on them in any shape or form. The other is if you're playing out - everywhere has direct drive technics, and if you're used to soundlabs it can be a bit odd - kind of like driving a new car. Just means you have to concentrate a bit more and puts you a bit on edge. I made the mistake of getting a bit pissed before going on the decks and had some near train-crashes, whereas I'm usually alright on the soundlabs after a few drinks.

quoted 1 line Given my nonexistant resources, what can you compromise on to save money?

>Given my nonexistant resources, what can you compromise on to save money?

Soundlabs - cheap but cheerful. Good for learning. Mine are still going strong after years of abuse.

quoted 1 line Finally, I suppose, does anyone have any recommendations?

>Finally, I suppose, does anyone have any recommendations?

If you can afford them - technics 1210's. The industry standard. Cheers, Dan Shoebridge. (ignore the message to follow - I'm emailing from work) Dan Shoebridge Project Executive The Ops Room Ltd Tel: 020 8410 8000 Fax: 020 8410 8001 Email: Dan.Shoebridge@opsroom.co.uk CONFIDENTIALITY This communication contains information which is confidential and may also be priviledged. It is for the exclusive use of the intended recipient(s). If you are not the intended recipient(s), please note that any distribution, copying or use of this communication or the information it contains is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately and then destroy any copies in whatever format they are held. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

Speaking of turntables, I have the opportunity to purchase a Dual CS505 mk1. I know it's old, but I've also heard that Dual decks kick ass. Comes with the original tonearm and Ortofon cart, plus a new Ortofon 510 mk2 cart. What's the general opinion of Dual turntables and/or Ortofon cartridges? Any good? G-love. http://www.gram.org.uk _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

i can't answer your question directly but i did remember this article i saw once at perfect sound forever: http://www.furious.com/perfect/vinyl14.html discussing vintage decks including dual which might be helpful carlos "Medium Graham" <medium_graham@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

quoted 1 line Speaking of turntables, I have the opportunity to purchase a Dual CS505

> Speaking of turntables, I have the opportunity to purchase a Dual CS505

mk1.

quoted 3 lines I know it's old, but I've also heard that Dual decks kick ass. Comes with

> I know it's old, but I've also heard that Dual decks kick ass. Comes with > the original tonearm and Ortofon cart, plus a new Ortofon 510 mk2 cart. > What's the general opinion of Dual turntables and/or Ortofon cartridges?

Any

quoted 1 line good?

> good?

angbase http://noiseweb.com/angbase/ p.o. box 131041 houston, texas 77219 usa ____________________________________________________________________ Get free email and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1 --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

I have a Dual 721 (direct drive turntable from the late 70s), and I'm very happy with mine. I can't speak to the Ortofon cartridges because mine doesn't have one. The unit itself is in excellent shape and plays smooth as silk. If only the plinth were wood instead of plastic... if you find a Dual in good shape, they make for very good, reliable listening-at-home decks. Lucky for me, there's a little shop right down the street that takes in tons of used turntables, refurbishes them, and turns around and resells 'em. For some reason he gets a lot of B&O decks in (he must scour estate sales from the rich old folks in this town). I still pop in now and again to peruse the new oddities, though I'm not in the market anymore. Seth.

quoted 9 lines Speaking of turntables, I have the opportunity to purchase a Dual CS505 mk1.

>Speaking of turntables, I have the opportunity to purchase a Dual CS505 mk1. >I know it's old, but I've also heard that Dual decks kick ass. Comes with >the original tonearm and Ortofon cart, plus a new Ortofon 510 mk2 cart. >What's the general opinion of Dual turntables and/or Ortofon cartridges? Any >good? > >G-love. > >http://www.gram.org.uk

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