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(idm) Graffiti and mass art (long)

7 messages · 4 participants · spans 1 day · search this subject
◇ merged from 2 subjects: (idm) graffiti and mass art (long) · (idm) grafikloo
1999-05-10 12:52Kelley Hackett RE: (idm) grafikloo
└─ 1999-05-10 13:22Sam Frank (idm) Graffiti and mass art (long)
1999-05-10 14:11Moonlight Re: (idm) Graffiti and mass art (long)
└─ 1999-05-10 14:24Sam Frank Re: (idm) Graffiti and mass art (long)
1999-05-10 15:15Moonlight Re: (idm) Graffiti and mass art (long)
└─ 1999-05-10 15:27Sam Frank Re: (idm) Graffiti and mass art (long)
1999-05-10 18:12wells Re: (idm) Graffiti and mass art (long)
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1999-05-10 12:52Kelley HackettHmmmmmm. Rjyan's point is well taken(or should I say his question). I dont want to get in
From:
Kelley Hackett
To:
'jpklein@flash.net' , 'idm@hyperreal.org'
Date:
Mon, 10 May 1999 07:52:00 -0500
Subject:
RE: (idm) grafikloo
permalink · <397CA68ABF5AD111863C00805F0DDE980B07C7@aba.iupui.edu>
Hmmmmmm. Rjyan's point is well taken(or should I say his question). I dont want to get in the logical bullshit of it, cuz its mere rhetoric but here is the thing! If ya look at many of the countries in the West, they have recieved many of their material items at the expense of others(Yes, fucking yes this is general so dont get bent out of shape by my general terms---but read your history books though)----thus this, in my eyes, is a form of stealing-----as Rjyan question kinda dictates----it wasnt yours in the beginning! In fact, when ya hit that cold and dark ass ground(when ya die) then who's property does ones belong to. Typically we humans just past our items along to our family members, those same items that we got from someone else---. Vicious cyle of human culture--- So, to try and tie this all together---a building, a building, hmmmm. It was built by a numerous amout of people for one person or one group of people----but the ownership part is tricky! Here again, if ya think about it, we dont even own our bodies---------but along the graffiti lines----just spray all the walls with the best graffiti---and let me sit back and get excited! Hk-90!
quoted 76 lines -----Original Message-----> -----Original Message----- > From: ~(({[Endemic~Distortion]}))~ [SMTP:jpklein@flash.net] > Sent: Sunday, May 09, 1999 9:08 PM > To: Rjyan C Kidwell > Cc: idm@hyperreal.org > Subject: Re: (idm) grafikloo > > Well, we are quite far afield from the topic of graffiti. It might > also be > asked "what gives anyone the right to foist their concept of art on > people > in the public forum as such?". The burden of proof would actually lie > with > you, though, as the commonly accepted position IS that of the > propriety of > personal ownership - notwithstanding the fact that you slipped your > premise > under the door in the form of a question - and you need to unseat the > established position before proceeding to establish a new one. Even > so, I'd > go with this : Personal investment in said object(s) along the lines > of > commonly accepted currency and the responsibilities thereof in the > community > at large. Behind this would lie the self-evident (imo, of course) > problem of > human nature....while a world where we dole all things out equitably > is a > nice ideal, it doesn't seem to fit well into the experience of > reality. We > all tend to be a tad selfish, greedy and get-over at times. Without > the > conventions we recognize as boundries and ownership, I'm not at all > convinced that we wouldn't be even less civilized than we are. > NOW...really, > I like graffiti in most cases. I'm just not certain it's entirely > ethical in > every situation. > Listcontent: Who else was abit disappointed in the Depth Charge > Electro-Boogie? I guess I was just expecting a bit more. Just me, > or...? > > jeff > > Rjyan C Kidwell wrote: > > > >>>Yes, graffiti is art, but it is also vandalism. What gives an > > >>>individual a right to destroy another's property? > > >> > > >> what gives you the right to own things? > > > > > >Again, can I come over and test this proposition with your music > > >collection? > > > > not until you answer my previous question > > with a declarative statement. > > > > rjck.,/__ > > ,)__www.gl.umbc.edu/~nworth1 > > > > ___________________________________________________________________ > > You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. > > Get completely free e-mail from Juno at > http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html > > or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] > > -- > jeff > > "10,000 people all screaming the same thing at the same time are > wrong, even > if they're right." > > dancing/about/architecture "...with wandering steps and slow..." > ICQ904008 >
1999-05-10 13:22Sam FrankWhile I don't want to linger too long on the graf aspect of this thread, it could raise in
From:
Sam Frank
To:
Kelley Hackett
Cc:
'jpklein@flash.net' , 'idm@hyperreal.org'
Date:
Mon, 10 May 1999 09:22:19 -0400 (EDT)
Subject:
(idm) Graffiti and mass art (long)
Reply to:
RE: (idm) grafikloo
permalink · <Pine.GSO.3.94.990510090023.8349A-100000@morpheus.cis.yale.edu>
While I don't want to linger too long on the graf aspect of this thread, it could raise interesting questions about art in public spaces. I think one way of thinking about graffiti is that it takes all public space as a canvas for art. Admitedly, this sometimes conflicts with more legal and traditional definitions of public space, but one way of thinking about such space is that if it's out in the open for everybody to see, it's fair game for all viewers to recreate in a way they like. Is it fair that only those who own property get to define what we see on our walls, billboards, etc. when we walk around every day? Isn't that a fundamentally elitist definition of art and visual culture? Graffiti artists aren't generally breaking into priviate property and defacing that--almost by definition, they're creating where other people can see it. Now it possible to argue with that conception of public space, and I don't have a complete attachment to it, although it has a certain appeal. But what do you think about other anti-elitist, possibly annoying forms of public art? What about music blasted from boomboxes? Killer bass in low-riding cars? Audio terrorism is general, where one person imposes his or her musical tastes on the public? And before you say that's just noise pollution, consider the musical tastes that are imposed on us all the time, in a state-sanctioned way. Elevator music in stores is the most glaring example. Might it not be more democratic to let everybody who's interested compete for our ears, rather than just those with the money to play us music that will increase our sales rates, as scientifically verified by consumer experts? The next step becomes more aggresively pirate art. Pirate radio for example, is a kind of break-in to private airwaves, although why a public resource has been privatized like that is a moral stumper (not an economic one mind you). Defacing billboards, often to subvert their meaning (like the artists who changed Amelia Earhart's Apple ad to "Think Doomed"). I need to read more about the Situationists, but it seems like one of the few ways to avoid playing proscripted roles in a mass media culture is to subvert spectacle society, and reclaim public space for individuals. IDM loves to talk about indie labels, avoiding the hegemony of the major labels, etc. But art like graffiti in effect takes discussions of art out of the consumer context altogether. Graffiti isn't bought or sold (except in commodified, bastardized versions), but just is. Thus, it has more artistic integrity than any art for sale, because it answers to nobody, eexcept perhaps the police. Here, the artist controls who sees their work and when--the tradeoff is that there ain't a way to make a living doing real graffiti. Anyway, ponder that before criticizing graffiti out of hand. personally, i think it would be a more interesting world if everybody started making art and music and broadcasting it to the public. It might disintegrate into a cacophony, indeed probably would, but it would be fun, messy, dirty, and most of all, not corporate. Comrade Sam sez "Power to the people!"
1999-05-10 14:11MoonlightSam Frank <samuel.frank@yale.edu> wrote: >personally, >i think it would be a more interest
From:
Moonlight
To:
Date:
Mon, 10 May 1999 09:11:19 -0500
Subject:
Re: (idm) Graffiti and mass art (long)
permalink · <3.0.5.32.19990510091119.008cdd50@augsburg.edu>
Sam Frank <samuel.frank@yale.edu> wrote:
quoted 5 lines personally,>personally, >i think it would be a more interesting world if everybody started making >art and music and broadcasting it to the public. It might disintegrate >into a cacophony, indeed probably would, but it would be fun, messy, >dirty, and most of all, not corporate.
Sounds like DJ Spooky joined the list under an alias and is dumbing down his speech... _________________________________ Adam Roesch / roesch@augsburg.edu Augsburg College / Minneapolis / MN / USA Visit my Fila Brazillia/Pork Recordings fan site: http://dogbert.augsburg.edu/~roesch/pork/ "The only disease we need in our blood is love" TRICKY
1999-05-10 14:24Sam Frank> Sounds like DJ Spooky joined the list under an alias and is dumbing down > his speech...
From:
Sam Frank
To:
Moonlight
Cc:
Date:
Mon, 10 May 1999 10:24:45 -0400 (EDT)
Subject:
Re: (idm) Graffiti and mass art (long)
Reply to:
Re: (idm) Graffiti and mass art (long)
permalink · <Pine.GSO.3.94.990510101734.8349B-100000@morpheus.cis.yale.edu>
quoted 2 lines Sounds like DJ Spooky joined the list under an alias and is dumbing down> Sounds like DJ Spooky joined the list under an alias and is dumbing down > his speech...
If you want to criticize what I have to say, criticize it. If you think i used too much jargon, say which jargon and what simpler language I should have used. If you think I'm stupid, explain why. Don't insult me with without backing it up. And god, I don't think DJ Spooky would even suggest that mass art is fun. He's trying too hard to be deep and pretentious. Shortlived Sam, just joined the list yesterday (and if you believe that one, there's a certain bridge you might be interested in)
1999-05-10 15:15MoonlightWhoa Buddy! I wasn't criticising you, i was just noting the similarity to his ideas, i gue
From:
Moonlight
To:
Sam Frank
Cc:
Date:
Mon, 10 May 1999 10:15:42 -0500
Subject:
Re: (idm) Graffiti and mass art (long)
permalink · <3.0.5.32.19990510101542.008d41c0@augsburg.edu>
Whoa Buddy! I wasn't criticising you, i was just noting the similarity to his ideas, i guess i forgot to add a smiley. Sorry to get you all worked up. And when i said dumbing it down, i meant that it was comprehensible, contratry to DJ Spooky's dense language that's miles above my head.
quoted 5 lines If you want to criticize what I have to say, criticize it. If you think i>If you want to criticize what I have to say, criticize it. If you think i >used too much jargon, say which jargon and what simpler language I should >have used. > And god, I don't think DJ Spooky would even suggest that mass art >is fun. He's trying too hard to be deep and pretentious.
Yeah, but the liner notes of the Necropolis album, he prints an excerpt of someone's book (Hey, i sound like the stupid one now), the book that he took "that subliminal kid" from. An excerpt of that excerpt: "The Subliminal Kid moved in and took over bars, cafes, and jukeboxes... installed radio transmitters and microphones...so that the music and talk in one could be heard in all..." Compare to what you (Sam Frank) wrote:
quoted 4 lines i think it would be a more interesting world if everybody started making>i think it would be a more interesting world if everybody started making >art and music and broadcasting it to the public. It might disintegrate >into a cacophony, indeed probably would, but it would be fun, messy, >dirty, and most of all, not corporate.
_________________________________ Adam Roesch / roesch@augsburg.edu Augsburg College / Minneapolis / MN / USA Visit my Fila Brazillia/Pork Recordings fan site: http://dogbert.augsburg.edu/~roesch/pork/ "The only disease we need in our blood is love" TRICKY
1999-05-10 15:27Sam Frank> > Yeah, but the liner notes of the Necropolis album, he prints an excerpt of > someone's
From:
Sam Frank
To:
Moonlight
Cc:
Sam Frank ,
Date:
Mon, 10 May 1999 11:27:08 -0400 (EDT)
Subject:
Re: (idm) Graffiti and mass art (long)
Reply to:
Re: (idm) Graffiti and mass art (long)
permalink · <Pine.GSO.3.94.990510111859.8349I-100000@morpheus.cis.yale.edu>
quoted 8 lines Yeah, but the liner notes of the Necropolis album, he prints an excerpt of> > Yeah, but the liner notes of the Necropolis album, he prints an excerpt of > someone's book (Hey, i sound like the stupid one now), the book that he > took "that subliminal kid" from. > An excerpt of that excerpt: > "The Subliminal Kid moved in and took over bars, cafes, and jukeboxes... > installed radio transmitters and microphones...so that the music and talk > in one could be heard in all..."
OK, yeah... All is good. I believe the Subliminal kid reference is from William Burroughs. Burroughs, so I've heard, wrote about actual audio terrorism. he thought that if you set up lots of hidden speakers in a heavily populated urban area, like Times Swuare NYC, and played noises of guns firing and cops saying "freeze," you could literally start a riot through noise alone. This is just the version I've heard in a class I'm taking now, I don't know if that's entirely accurate. My problem with Spooky is that he seems to spout things witout understanding them. On one level, his rhetoric is populist, what when it comes down to it, he seems really full of himself and his own abilities. So actually, I don't know what he thinks about mass art (he probably supports it on an intellectual level), but someone with that big an ego, signed to a major label against all the other populist stuff he's said, shilling for a Vodka company, etc, can't really support populist music emotionally. And regarding the music as frgaments of memory etc. Again, it isn't what he says precisely, it's how he says it, as meaningless catchphrases with no particular meaning. Silly retrofuturism, and jargon jargon jargon. If i want philosophy, I'll look to a more rigorous mind. Sam
1999-05-10 18:12wellsAt 09:22 AM 5/10/99 -0400, Sam Frank wrote: > >Anyway, ponder that before criticizing graf
From:
wells
To:
Sam Frank , Kelley Hackett
Cc:
'jpklein@flash.net' , 'idm@hyperreal.org'
Date:
Mon, 10 May 1999 14:12:16 -0400
Subject:
Re: (idm) Graffiti and mass art (long)
permalink · <4.1.0.67.19990510141046.009193b0@titan.vcu.edu>
At 09:22 AM 5/10/99 -0400, Sam Frank wrote:
quoted 7 lines Anyway, ponder that before criticizing graffiti out of hand. personally,> >Anyway, ponder that before criticizing graffiti out of hand. personally, >i think it would be a more interesting world if everybody started making >art and music and broadcasting it to the public. It might disintegrate >into a cacophony, indeed probably would, but it would be fun, messy, >dirty, and most of all, not corporate. >
Oh, you forgot to mention "bad." - wells oliver / s0ewoliv@titan.vcu.edu