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I'm trying to work out a possible paper topic, and I have two in mind, but I'm not sure how much documentation there is in magazines and books, so I'll raise my questions here first... 1) In a discussion with a friend about how dinky old-skool hip-hop beats were, and how cheesy the rapping was, he said something to the effect of "the lyrics evolved because the beats evolved." By that he meant that the electro sound determined the cheesy party rapping, and that once electro was appropriated by Freestyle, and hip-hop became denser, then rhyming styles evolved too. Now, I'm sure this "beat determinism" isn't entirely accurate, but it has a certain amount of possibility--Chuck D wouldn't have sounded the same without the Bomb Squad fucking shit up behind him, etc. Is there any literature out there on the development of hip-hop production? What about on the x0x instruments, and their relationship to hip-hop? My teacher said something about dub/reggae behaving the sme way, that the toasters keyed off the production with their rhyming style. I'd also postulate that the reason jungle MCs tend to suck is because the beats are too fast for them to stress words right, among other difficulties, so their rhymes sound enormously awkward. Anyway, any literature on instruments/drum patterns/production/rhyme styles in hip-hip/dub/jungle, etc would be greatly appreciated. Is there a good magazine article on drum machines? 2)Have any artists besides Oval exploited the theoretical possibilities of the CD medium? What can you really do with the mdeium anyway, besides playing a disk straight, or making it skip? Are there any other possible manipulations? Hidden tracks don't particularly interest me. Obviously, with records, plenty of people have fucked with the medium itself--Marclay, turntablists, etc. Cd's are obviously harder to manipualte, but that doesn't mean people haven't done it. Are there any writing which theorize about the consequences of didgital playback and the CD medium? Has Lesser done much with skipping CDs? I've heard the name Gilles Deleuze dropped now and then--what relation does he play to all of this? Any leads would be much appreciated, whether they're artists to listen to, things to read, or people to contact. I'm trying to figure out whether either of these are feasible topics. Later Sam

Sam Frank wrote:

quoted 10 lines 1) In a discussion with a friend about how dinky old-skool hip-hop beats

> 1) In a discussion with a friend about how dinky old-skool hip-hop beats > were, > and how cheesy the rapping was, he said something to the effect of "the > lyrics evolved because the beats evolved." By that he meant that the > electro sound determined the cheesy party rapping, and that once electro > was appropriated by Freestyle, and hip-hop became denser, then rhyming > styles evolved too. Now, I'm sure this "beat determinism" isn't entirely > accurate, but it has a certain amount of possibility--Chuck D wouldn't > have sounded the same without the Bomb Squad fucking shit up behind him, > etc.

sam: i understand what you're saying, but just check out some rap acapellas:put on a public enemy track's acapella version and you will *still* hear the power behind chuck d's lyrics. re: rappers: if you ("you" being "the person rapping") have something to say, you have something to say, that's my opinion. andrew :)

quoted 7 lines sam: i understand what you're saying, but just check out some rap

> sam: i understand what you're saying, but just check out some rap > acapellas:put on a public enemy track's acapella version and you will *still* > hear the power > behind chuck d's lyrics. re: rappers: if you ("you" being "the person > rapping") have something to say, you have something to > say, that's my opinion. andrew :) >

I don't dispute that. But it's not only what you say--it's how you say it. This goes back to something said a week or two ago, that he didn't think politics belong in muisc at all. Well, I'd say, they belong in music, but only if they fit in with the music--Chuck's politics are insperable from the Bomb Squad's production and his rhyming style. Politics are only bad when they clunk, but the same goes for any subject matter. The question is, without the Bomb Squad, would Chuck have rhymed the way he did?

At 07:47 PM 4/20/99 -0300, Andrew Duke Cognition/In The Mix wrote:

quoted 3 lines sam: i understand what you're saying, but just check out some rap

>sam: i understand what you're saying, but just check out some rap >acapellas:put on a public enemy track's acapella version and you will *still* >hear the power behind chuck d's lyrics.

Yet the raps weren't created in a vacuum, they were in response to the beats. And listen to Chcuk D's weak raps over weak beats on the embarrasing "Autobiography of Mistachuck". Ugh. I forced myself to listen to the whole thing, and i had to force hard. _________________________________ Adam Roesch / roesch@augsburg.edu Augsburg College / Minneapolis / MN / USA http://dogbert.augsburg.edu/~roesch/ The world's most complete Pork Recordings/Fila Brazillia site: http://dogbert.augsburg.edu/~roesch/pork/ "The only disease we need in our blood is love" TRICKY

I think that "beat determinism" is a very effective theory. I think that what Sam is trying to say is that when the beats were locked-up drum machine electrowank, gated snares and so forth all over the place, the rapping ended up suffering from similarly stilted delivery and bad funk. It is notoriously difficult to sound good using a modern rap delivery style on top of syncopated-freakout bass drum patterns with too much reverb and choppy hi-hats. The raps had to be deliberately simplistic and each line was forced to carry about the same dynamic weight just to be heard clearly over the beats. When the beats became more sample-driven, tighter, and more reliant on live-feeling loops as opposed to the tyranny of the 16th-note resolution forced by older gear, the rapping opened up and was freed to stomp all over the place. When the rhythm underneath isn't tripping all over its own polyrhythms, it makes it easier for a rapper to play with his delivery and use _his_ polyrhythms, dragging and rushing over the beat to emphasize phrases. So I agree, the beats lead the way, though I'm sure plenty of rappers were all set to use some different delivery patterns as soon as affordable samplers and such hit the market. Correct me if I'm wrong, but there's not a rap song to be heard, janky remixes aside, where the beats don't define to the last letter the method of rapping on top. Tom

At 07:26 PM 4/20/99 -0400, you wrote:

quoted 3 lines I think that "beat determinism" is a very effective theory.

>I think that "beat determinism" is a very effective theory. > >So I agree, the beats lead the way, though I'm sure plenty of rappers were

all

quoted 1 line set to use some different delivery patterns as soon as affordable samplers

>set to use some different delivery patterns as soon as affordable samplers

and

quoted 1 line such hit the market. Correct me if I'm wrong, but there's not a rap song

>such hit the market. Correct me if I'm wrong, but there's not a rap song

to be

quoted 2 lines heard, janky remixes aside, where the beats don't define to the last letter

>heard, janky remixes aside, where the beats don't define to the last letter >the method of rapping on top.

Interesting thread. I'm going to agree here, with a current example. Think about a lot of newer commercial hip hop releases to be on the radio recently. The feeling of beats over the past couple years has really leaned towards that ... uh ... limping feeling. I don't know a more accurate word to describe it. But when you take the rapping of Bustah Rhymes or someone, and then just listen to the weird as fuck weight placement in the breaks, it sounds a lot different from the hip hop of the early 90s. A definite example of the reflection back and forth from rapping style and the accompanying beats. All of that newish Method Man end of the world apocalypse thing album has that sound. I wonder if there's some name or even general consensus of opinion about this sound. The other interesting thing is how current videos jerk around fast-slow-fast-slow to further emphasise that feel, and completely beat you over the head with it. I actually kind of like that feel ... The use of layers of samples has changed a lot. Listening to wu tang albums evolving, for instance, show that kind of change in density. Less big-spacious-crashing around against each other, like say old PE used to be. ---- "According to the law of primogeniture this moon-cheese is mine. The UN? Ha! I spit on the UN!" [Pokey the Penguin] 5678>> http://www.pobox.com/~jpitrman/

Depending upon whehter y'all conisder Tricky and Massive Attack to be hip hop, there _is_ a radically different style of hiphop going on right now. Tricky, 3D, and Daddy G started out weak like modern jungle MCs might be, but as time has gone on, they've developed very unique styles. I think the problem is that by being so different, they may been seen as no longer rap (post-rap then?). So the problem is that for people to accept rap as still rap, it has to confine their definitions of rap. So "rap" won't have much variety in vocal delivery because that's generally how people define rap, by the vocal delivery. Thus, what can change without changing acceptance, the production, varies much more. And as far as not much difference in rap vocals over the years, how much has singing changed lately? Yet production of "regular music" doesn't take priority. Lyrical content and voice do, pretty much the same way they always have. And for "beat determinism", the reason that beats and flows match up well is because if they didn't, someone's not doing their job well, and they won't sell. (unless it's a novelty tune). The roots put dnb on their new album, but they don't rap over it (i think i read a quote from their drummer/ringleader ?uestlove "Don't expect me to play that when i'm 50") np: "Can i get a...?" Jay-Z. _________________________________ Adam Roesch / roesch@augsburg.edu Augsburg College / Minneapolis / MN / USA http://dogbert.augsburg.edu/~roesch/ The world's most complete Pork Recordings/Fila Brazillia site: http://dogbert.augsburg.edu/~roesch/pork/ "The only disease we need in our blood is love" TRICKY

On Wed, 21 Apr 1999, Moonlight wrote:

quoted 4 lines Depending upon whehter y'all conisder Tricky and Massive Attack to be

> Depending upon whehter y'all conisder Tricky and Massive Attack to be > hip hop, there _is_ a radically different style of hiphop going on right > now. Tricky, 3D, and Daddy G started out weak like modern jungle MCs > might be, but as time has gone on, they've developed very unique styles.

tricky sounds like mase, actually - lots of mumbling. but 3D and daddy g are definitely stylistically new. * #### a disturbance in a system. #### laerm. @voicenet.com ##:# to breathe within the system/the speed of light is yours icq: 5562209 how many angels? how many angels?

quoted 4 lines notoriously difficult to sound good using a modern rap delivery style on top

> notoriously difficult to sound good using a modern rap delivery style on top > of syncopated-freakout bass drum patterns with too much reverb and choppy > hi-hats. The raps had to be deliberately simplistic and each line was forced > to carry about the same dynamic weight just to be heard clearly over the beats.

i don't know...check out the opener "table of contents" on the new roots record. the first half features deliberately crappy production, slimy hi-hats and all, and black thought wraps a modern, slightly old school flow around the beat. then it shifts to present-day production, and malik b throws down a more old school style rhyme. (of course, black thought is quite a talented mc, and could probably sound good over cheesy old beats!) i wonder how much of old hip hop vocal sound is due to the fact that what the first rappers were doing was totally new (debts to reggae toasters, etc, aside) and that it wasn't clear HOW to put words to music without singing, but still keeping a groove. i think it took a generation of kids who grew up hearing the first rappers to come up with _more_ ways to flow over a track (not necessarily _better_) than the first pioneers had time to. regarding public enemy: a lot mc's cite chuck d as an influence, but not in the way you might expect. most attribute to him the green light to speak on politics, say their opinions straight out, etc. i think in the case of public enemy, they are so monolithic that it will take years before we see more of their style distilled and copied...but the influence is there. the bomb squad, on the other hand, influenced production styles tremendously, in and out of hip hop. (honestly, take "tomorrow never knows" by the beatles, give it bomb squad production, and you have the chemical brothers.) similarly, i think we're just starting to see slick rick's vocal influence (well, putting snoop dogg aside), and it's been what...a decade since he was in his prime? so i think the problem is that _lasting_ influence takes time to be digested and show up, while pure style appropriation (legions of wannabe wu-tang, the glut of timbaland production that has rendered the R&B/rap distinction totally moot) sam, if you're still reading this, i think de la soul is one example of a 'kooky' vocal set who necessitated new styles of production. though they're so intertwined with prince paul's innovation it's hard to tell who was pushing who. then there's the obvious kool keith, who apparently has been driven to produce for himself. final note: someone mentioned that this might be a silly place to ask about hip hop history, which i disagree with. at the outset, there's a lot of hip hop influence in idm and on its artists, and good portion of what we discuss here IS hip hop if you define it liberally (most of the ninja tune roster, most dj's who get mentions on this list). finally, i know i was a hip hop head loooong before i heard aphex twin. rob

quoted 9 lines regarding public enemy: a lot mc's cite chuck d as an influence, but not

> regarding public enemy: a lot mc's cite chuck d as an influence, but not > in the way you might expect. most attribute to him the green light to > speak on politics, say their opinions straight out, etc. i think in the > case of public enemy, they are so monolithic that it will take years > before we see more of their style distilled and copied...but the influence > is there. the bomb squad, on the other hand, influenced production styles > tremendously, in and out of hip hop. (honestly, take "tomorrow never > knows" by the beatles, give it bomb squad production, and you have the > chemical brothers.)

And the Chemicals don't deny that.

The Flaming Lips....Zaireeka, their 4-cd set (all 4 cds are supposed to be played at once in order for the entire song to be heard) has lengthy liner notes about the theory behind it. They go on a lot about how if you have 2 cds which are exactly the same, but play them in different players starting at exactly at the same time, they will go slightly in and out of phase to very weird effect (try it, it works!). Because the motor of most cd players is not really perfectly accurate blah blah.

quoted 4 lines 2)Have any artists besides Oval exploited the theoretical possibilities of

>2)Have any artists besides Oval exploited the theoretical possibilities of >the CD medium? What can you really do with the mdeium anyway, besides >playing a disk straight, or making it skip? Are there any other possible >manipulations? Hidden tracks don't particularly interest me.

Four words - David Toop's "Rap Attack" You will *not* find a better history of hip-hop/rap/whatever. There is also a "Rap Attack 2" (the one I have) which brings the history into the late eighties/early nineties. MCs rapping conscious lyrics didn't have much to do with "denser" music. Read Chapter 9 entitled "Tough" which presents a very good argument that conscious lyrics in rapping were there all along. -----Original Message----- From: Sam Frank <samuel.frank@yale.edu> To: idm@hyperreal.org <idm@hyperreal.org> Date: Tuesday, April 20, 1999 5:26 PM Subject: (idm) Hip-hop history/CD philosophy

quoted 44 lines I'm trying to work out a possible paper topic, and I have two in mind, but

>I'm trying to work out a possible paper topic, and I have two in mind, but >I'm not sure how much documentation there is in magazines and books, so >I'll raise my questions here first... > >1) In a discussion with a friend about how dinky old-skool hip-hop beats >were, >and how cheesy the rapping was, he said something to the effect of "the >lyrics evolved because the beats evolved." By that he meant that the >electro sound determined the cheesy party rapping, and that once electro >was appropriated by Freestyle, and hip-hop became denser, then rhyming >styles evolved too. Now, I'm sure this "beat determinism" isn't entirely >accurate, but it has a certain amount of possibility--Chuck D wouldn't >have sounded the same without the Bomb Squad fucking shit up behind him, >etc. Is there any literature out there on the development of hip-hop >production? What about on the x0x instruments, and their relationship to >hip-hop? My teacher said something about dub/reggae behaving the sme way, >that the toasters keyed off the production with their rhyming style. I'd >also postulate that the reason jungle MCs tend to suck is because the >beats are too fast for them to stress words right, among other >difficulties, so their rhymes sound enormously awkward. Anyway, any >literature on instruments/drum patterns/production/rhyme styles in >hip-hip/dub/jungle, etc would be greatly appreciated. Is there a good >magazine article on drum machines? > >2)Have any artists besides Oval exploited the theoretical possibilities of >the CD medium? What can you really do with the mdeium anyway, besides >playing a disk straight, or making it skip? Are there any other possible >manipulations? Hidden tracks don't particularly interest me. > Obviously, with records, plenty of people have fucked with the >medium itself--Marclay, turntablists, etc. Cd's are obviously harder to >manipualte, but that doesn't mean people haven't done it. Are there any >writing which theorize about the consequences of didgital playback and the >CD medium? Has Lesser done much with skipping CDs? I've heard the name >Gilles Deleuze dropped now and then--what relation does he play to all of >this? > >Any leads would be much appreciated, whether they're artists to listen to, >things to read, or people to contact. I'm trying to figure out whether >either of these are feasible topics. > >Later >Sam > >

I fully understand this point, and agree to some degree, but this is a revisionist theory which looks back on hip-hop from a 90's perspective, where beats reign supreme. While the DJ started hip-hop, the MC was very soon the dominant figure, still reigning supreme in traditional hip-hop. Throughout the late 80's and all of the 90's, I would find it hard to believe that the final say on the beat for a given track was the producer. Most hip-hop instrumentals are tailor made for the particular rap style of the featured artist. The electro sound of the early 80's is not a good example since it was started by whiteboys without any real message to bring, who found MCs to rhyme over their futuristic creations. So of course the rapping was stilted, the real MCs were out in the park doing their own thing, thinking "Planet Rock" was some weird disco shit. MCs still have the artistic power to choose the beats they want to rap over...the good ones go find a producer who will make beats that sound good under their flows. Jungle MCs are weak for the most part because they couldn't get a "real job" with a good hip-hop producer (this is changing to some extent with new breed MCs like Wordplay from NY, at home over hip-hop or dnb). I think the evolution is both parts MC and producers, but for the majority of hip-hop's history, people didn't even talk about the beats...it was all about lyrics. "Correct me if I'm wrong, but there's not a rap song to be heard, janky remixes aside, where the beats don't define to the last letter the method of rapping on top." i agree...but that's putting the cart before the horse...the producer is being paid by the MC to make a beat that define the MCs flow. darren Tom Millar wrote:

quoted 24 lines I think that "beat determinism" is a very effective theory.

> I think that "beat determinism" is a very effective theory. > > I think that what Sam is trying to say is that when the beats were locked-up > drum machine electrowank, gated snares and so forth all over the place, the > rapping ended up suffering from similarly stilted delivery and bad funk. It is > notoriously difficult to sound good using a modern rap delivery style on top > of syncopated-freakout bass drum patterns with too much reverb and choppy > hi-hats. The raps had to be deliberately simplistic and each line was forced > to carry about the same dynamic weight just to be heard clearly over the beats. > > When the beats became more sample-driven, tighter, and more reliant on > live-feeling loops as opposed to the tyranny of the 16th-note resolution > forced by older gear, the rapping opened up and was freed to stomp all over > the place. When the rhythm underneath isn't tripping all over its own > polyrhythms, it makes it easier for a rapper to play with his delivery and use > _his_ polyrhythms, dragging and rushing over the beat to emphasize phrases. > > So I agree, the beats lead the way, though I'm sure plenty of rappers were all > set to use some different delivery patterns as soon as affordable samplers and > such hit the market. Correct me if I'm wrong, but there's not a rap song to be > heard, janky remixes aside, where the beats don't define to the last letter > the method of rapping on top. > > Tom

quoted 7 lines "Correct me if I'm wrong, but there's not a rap song to be

> > "Correct me if I'm wrong, but there's not a rap song to be > heard, janky remixes aside, where the beats don't define to the last letter > the method of rapping on top." > > i agree...but that's putting the cart before the horse...the producer is being > paid by the MC to make a beat that define the MCs flow.

Then why is every rapper going out of their way to fit their rhyme style around Timbaland's beats? Obviously it cuts both ways. However, one of the great things about pop hip-hop is how willing even established artists are to adapt to new production, new beats, new sounds. When a new sound acquires some sort of critical mass, MCs will get on board with the producers. Determinism of any kind is never *the* answer, but it can be *an* answer. I'm just curious whether anyone's read anything that pays attention to the beats, and how they shape flow and content. Sam

At 08:30 PM 4/20/99 -0400, Sam Frank wrote:

quoted 6 lines "Correct me if I'm wrong, but there's not a rap song to be

>> >> "Correct me if I'm wrong, but there's not a rap song to be >> heard, janky remixes aside, where the beats don't define to the last letter >> the method of rapping on top." >> >> i agree...but that's putting the cart before the horse...the producer is

being

quoted 4 lines paid by the MC to make a beat that define the MCs flow.

>> paid by the MC to make a beat that define the MCs flow. > >Then why is every rapper going out of their way to fit their rhyme style >around Timbaland's beats? Obviously it cuts both ways.

definetly, for example according to the interviews i've read, DJ Primier ALWAYS suits his beats to the MC, on the other hand, often you'll see one say 'yeah me and <insert producers name> were digging through his tapes and we picked this one out'. But afterwards I'd assume the track would have to be retooled a bit to fit the rhymes (drop outs, etc.)

quoted 5 lines However, one of

>However, one of >the great things about pop hip-hop is how willing even established artists >are to adapt to new production, new beats, new sounds. When a new sound >acquires some sort of critical mass, MCs will get on board with the >producers.

yeah, but i think they're just changing up their rhyme style to fit the trends not the producers (although it could be said they go hand in hand). Also, you mention Timbaland, but when i think about it, none of the people i've heard work with Timb outside of his Missy/Magoo scene have really changed up their style to fit his rhymes. Maybe Jay Z? I've only heard that one single with the Jaz on it, but he just kinda sped up his standard rhyme patterns. The Timb track on the new Nas album is pretty much standard post-illmatic Nas. Even when the Supafriendz did the remix over that Aalyiah beat (the one with the crying baby that was a huge hit over the summer), their style pretty much stayed the same. In terms of style, the whole thing switched up with Rakim. He was the first to do that sort of multisylable thing that has been standard through most of the 90's. With the exception of the whole Freestyle Fellowship/Project Blowed style (which never really caught on, except when Bone Thugs bit it), I really don't think there has been very many advances in terms of delivery since the Ra. Listen to any early 90's stuff then pull out something released recently, in terms of lyrical arrangements nothing has changed much. HOWEVER, the production is noticably different. So i really don't think it's production, rather, the situation for which the track was created, dancefloor friendly stuff ala "Planet Rock" can consist of 'zah zah zah zah zah', and basically it's got a nice beat, but the crowd'll keep moving (see: puffy). But when it comes to home listening it gives the MC the oppurtunity to be more complex.

quoted 2 lines The question is, without the Bomb Squad, would Chuck have rhymed

>The question is, without the Bomb Squad, would Chuck have rhymed >the way he did?

definetly, he's still the same person, same influences, and most importantly, same anger. Sure, it would have sounded corny over Timbaland beats, but he would still be just as pissed off. Also, i don't think it's really apropriate to mention PE in the progression of hip hop, since them seem to exist outside of it, as no one has ever really touched what they were doing, in terms of production or pure emotion. Sadly, (like IDM) hip hop grows from people biting others styles with slight, rarely the out there innovation that PE/Bomb Squad. And nobody bites PE. Period. .....

quoted 5 lines definetly, for example according to the interviews i've read, DJ Primier

> definetly, for example according to the interviews i've read, DJ Primier > ALWAYS suits his beats to the MC, on the other hand, often you'll see one > say 'yeah me and <insert producers name> were digging through his tapes and > we picked this one out'. But afterwards I'd assume the track would have to > be retooled a bit to fit the rhymes (drop outs, etc.)

But don't you think that if a Timbaland emerges on the scene, with a prodigious talent and new sound, new, unknown MCs will adjust their rhyming style? Maybe the rappers who rap to Timbaland aren't really rapping to his beats now, but I bet the next generation will be more comfortable. Also, do you really think Magoo's, Timbaland's, Missy's rhyming style would exist if it weren't for Timbaland's beats? This is an example of beat determining rhyming, because it seems pretty clear that his genius as producer outweighs any of their talents as rappers (even if Missy does have her moments).

quoted 3 lines In terms of style, the whole thing switched up with Rakim. He was the first

> In terms of style, the whole thing switched up with Rakim. He was the first > to do that sort of multisylable thing that has been standard through most > of the 90's.

He did pioneer a certain brand of rhyming, yes, and I'm not denying that lyricists influence each other. But there are other styles which have acquired enormous popularity, which gets into the whole East/West (among other examples and classifications) thing. Would Snoop exist without G-Funk and Dr. Dre? Probably, but his style would be different. Lyricists influence other lyricists, but one would think the influence tends to be in terms of imitation. New beats are what necessitate new rhyming styles. I'd love to hear some opposite examples, of rappers who are so out there that some kooky producer had to innovate to give him/her a new sound to rhyme over, a new sound that fit their style. I doubt many exist, just because hip-hop seems far more open to beat innovations than to rhyming innovations, except those which fit in with a popular production sound. With the exception of the whole Freestyle Fellowship/Project

quoted 5 lines Blowed style (which never really caught on, except when Bone Thugs bit it),

> Blowed style (which never really caught on, except when Bone Thugs bit it), > I really don't think there has been very many advances in terms of delivery > since the Ra. Listen to any early 90's stuff then pull out something > released recently, in terms of lyrical arrangements nothing has changed > much. HOWEVER, the production is noticably different.

You have a bit of a point, but I think new production influences delivery, not content. Rakim does loom over most New York (and elsewhere) rappers, but there are lots of different delivery styles which aren't Rakim's. DMX and hardcore production, Q-Tip and the Native Tongues jazzy production, etc.

quoted 3 lines importantly, same anger. Sure, it would have sounded corny over Timbaland

> > importantly, same anger. Sure, it would have sounded corny over Timbaland > beats, but he would still be just as pissed off.

Obviously there are arguments that can be made against this point having to do with age, mellowing, etc., but he sure isn't the same rhymer on that He Got Game single, which is not a Bomb Squad sound by any means. He wouldn't have been able to rhyme like he did back in the day without the Bomb Squad. Again, by rhyming I'm referring to delivery, not to content. Also, i don't think it's

quoted 3 lines really apropriate to mention PE in the progression of hip hop, since them

> really apropriate to mention PE in the progression of hip hop, since them > seem to exist outside of it, as no one has ever really touched what they > were doing, in terms of production or pure emotion.

I'm not talking about a lengthy hip-hop historical progression. rather, I'm talking about innovations in production styles leading to innovations in rhyming styles, which has nothing to do with whether anyone cared to bite PE or not. Mostly, I'd just like to hear a focus on the music behind the rappers, as well as the rappers themselves. No doubt, some geniuses create their own delivery style, but just as (or more) often, producers create a new sound and rappers race to catch up. Sam

I hate it when people think that MC's have somehow 'advanced' since the old school days. The stuff that was good back then is still good now -- what tends to kill a style is all the wack trend followers that come after the originators and make crap tracks. Africa Bambaata? Grandmaster Flash & the Furious Five? Biz Markie? Erik B and Rakim? The good stuff still stands up! Same thing holds for other styles. I've been playing a Prince greatest hits cd in the car because it came into my wife's store, and some of his tracks are still state of the art. If he'd made them today, he'd of had a fatter kick and pitched it up a bit but that 4x4 dance beat is still there, along with loads of funky sounds and vocals. He was making tracks like 'Controversy' back in the early 80's, and you can still drop them in a house set with a straight face. You might as well say that Bach is wack because he's been dead 300 years. Fashions change in music, but it's not some linear evolution towards perfection -- otherwise the Spice Girls would be better than Billy Holiday. For that matter, where would hip hop be if producers weren't digging in the crates at the Goodwill for samples? kent williams -- kent@avalon.net ICQ:33001909

By advanced, I never mean "better." But I believe there's always historical progression. A style is new and fresh, eventually it becomes stale. Some geniuses can milk new things out of an old style forever, but for most artists, it's diminshing returns, and new styles pioneered by other creative people let the less groundbreaking artists explore fresh ground. The goal "progresses" historically, the attempts to achieve that goal maintain the same relative quality. And some of the goals along the way are better than others--I think many on the list would say that drill 'n' bass is a pretty uninspiring goal, whhereas, say, a particular genre of dancefloor jungle holds far more possibilities...

On Wed, 21 Apr 1999, Sam Frank wrote:

quoted 2 lines And some of the goals along the way are better than others--I think

> And some of the goals along the way are better than others--I think > many on the list would say that drill 'n' bass is a pretty uninspiring goal,

Not me -- I say bring the noise!

quoted 2 lines whereas, say, a particular genre of dancefloor jungle holds far more

> whereas, say, a particular genre of dancefloor jungle holds far more > possibilities...

I don't know about that -- I listen to drum&bass DJ's a lot, and I think there's been a real glut of records that all sound the same, because they "work on the dance floor." Get a two step beat, add some crappy Korg M1 pads, make a wobbly bassline, and all of a sudden you're a star. Sure you can dance to it, but there's been a trend away from using dynamics and inventive drum programming. The 'drill&bass' guys (who ironically, are most inspired by old school 'ardcore in their manic drum programming) are at least putting some effort into their tracks.

quoted 7 lines and then just listen to the weird as fuck weight

> and then just listen to the weird as fuck weight > placement in the breaks, it sounds a lot different from the hip hop of the > early 90s. A definite example of the reflection back and forth from > rapping style and the accompanying beats. All of that newish Method Man > end of the world apocalypse thing album has that sound. I wonder if > there's some name or even general consensus of opinion about this sound. >

Maybe the influence of drum and bass has finally found its way into the ultra conservative hip-hop production world. if you listen to the beat on that Noreaga track with the "What what what" chorus, it's very close to jump-up. It also seems like they're using less real drum samples...the timbaland sound is much more synthetic and electronic than early 90's stuff which was jazz samples galore...

quoted 4 lines Mostly, I'd just like to hear a focus on the music behind the rappers, as

>Mostly, I'd just like to hear a focus on the music behind the rappers, as >well as the rappers themselves. No doubt, some geniuses create their own >delivery style, but just as (or more) often, producers create a new sound >and rappers race to catch up.

Someone told me once that they read an interview with Kurtis Mantronik (sorry the reference is so vague) in which he said, basically, that he had to do ground breaking shit with the music because MC Tee's rhymes were so weak.

Someone told me once that they read an interview with Kurtis Mantronik (sorry the reference is so vague) in which he said, basically, that he had to do ground breaking shit with the music because MC Tee's rhymes were so weak. Yeah that is a particular case there and Mantronix is no joke---but mostly, rappers dont need a band or sound.. That is why its called Rapp! Its almost like poetry, if U will, or story telling-----They are telling stories from incidents when they Grew up, and how our fucking neighborhoods are filled with crime, grime, drugs, malice, discontent, hatred, Nazi-cops Etc!

quoted 24 lines -----Original Message-----

> -----Original Message----- > From: Danny Wyatt [SMTP:danny@arbitrary.com] > Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 1999 9:21 AM > To: Sam Frank; mlt > Cc: Sam Frank; idm@hyperreal.org > Subject: Re: (idm) Hip-hop history/CD philosophy > > >Mostly, I'd just like to hear a focus on the music behind the > rappers, as > >well as the rappers themselves. No doubt, some geniuses create their > own > >delivery style, but just as (or more) often, producers create a new > sound > >and rappers race to catch up. > > > Someone told me once that they read an interview with Kurtis Mantronik > (sorry the reference is so vague) in which he said, basically, that he > had > to do ground breaking shit with the music because MC Tee's rhymes were > so > weak. > >

Darren is Right my friend Sam, U seem to be looking at this thing from now, but in order to understand anything U must first start from the beginning. Rappers dont need bands(music). Typically, while in NYC or D.C., I always wanted buddies to kick free-styles, for that is when they are at their best. Not when music is playing behind their rapps. To each his own, but there is nothing like walking up to a cat and say "bust a free" and he begins! In fact, if he cant, or says I need music---I just walk away! Hk-10!

quoted 33 lines -----Original Message-----

> -----Original Message----- > From: Sam Frank [SMTP:samuel.frank@yale.edu] > Sent: Tuesday, April 20, 1999 7:30 PM > To: Darren Keast > Cc: tmillar@utkux.utcc.utk.edu; idm@hyperreal.org > Subject: Re: (idm) Hip-hop history/CD philosophy > > > > > "Correct me if I'm wrong, but there's not a rap song to be > > heard, janky remixes aside, where the beats don't define to the last > letter > > the method of rapping on top." > > > > i agree...but that's putting the cart before the horse...the > producer is being > > paid by the MC to make a beat that define the MCs flow. > > Then why is every rapper going out of their way to fit their rhyme > style > around Timbaland's beats? Obviously it cuts both ways. However, one > of > the great things about pop hip-hop is how willing even established > artists > are to adapt to new production, new beats, new sounds. When a new > sound > acquires some sort of critical mass, MCs will get on board with the > producers. Determinism of any kind is never *the* answer, but it can > be > *an* answer. I'm just curious whether anyone's read anything that > pays > attention to the beats, and how they shape flow and content. > > Sam

quoted 13 lines U seem to be looking at this thing from now, but in order to understand

> > U seem to be looking at this thing from now, but in order to understand > anything U must first start from the beginning. > > Rappers dont need bands(music). Typically, while in NYC or D.C., I > always wanted buddies to kick free-styles, for that is when they are at > their best. Not when music is playing behind their rapps. > > To each his own, but there is nothing like walking up to a cat and say > "bust a free" and he begins! In fact, if he cant, or says I need > music---I just walk away! > > Hk-10!

I understand your point, but you're misinterpreting me. I'm not talking about rap's lyrical content, although I'm sure certain content goes well with a certain sound and flow. I'm talking about the delivery itself, thwe inmteraction between beat and rap. IMO, hip-hop is much more interesting when both rap and beat work simultaneously--instrumental hip-hop is rarely incredibly exciting, and loses a lot of the point of hip-hop, just as instrumental rap seems more akin to straight, albeit heavily rhythmic, poetry. I'm interested in the lyrics as well, but I'm most interested in the combination of sounds. Of course, disagree if you want to. And re: starting from the beginning, I believe the beat started it off, with toaster types over DJs, keeping the corwd going. of course, there was proto-rap, like that scene in Dolomite where Dolomite is entertaining the crowd. is there any literature on "proto-rap," some heavily rhythmic poetry style that predated "actual" rap? One question--has a bizarre rapper like Kool Keith ever had beats that adequately deal with his rapping style? The production on the Dr Octagon album was great, but it seemed of a slightly diffreent mindset than Keith's rapping, and that's why so many people seemed to like the beats, but not his raps. I'd love to see him rap over completely freeform arrangements--lyrical determinism, if you will. Sam

Although I agree in some ways Moon L. I disagree, it was created, not in a vacuum, but out of the plight of the ghetto. I agree who want to listen to anything with wack-ass beats---true-that! But without beats, in the beginning, these cats just stood on the stairs or the corner, and just made lyrics about the hood. Thats all, nothing more nothing less. But progression does take place(sometimes for the worse----soooo)-----it depends on what frame or reference point U understand it from! Hk-90!

quoted 30 lines -----Original Message-----

> -----Original Message----- > From: Moonlight [SMTP:roesch@augsburg.edu] > Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 1999 2:44 AM > To: idm@hyperreal.org > Subject: Re: (idm) Hip-hop history/CD philosophy > > At 07:47 PM 4/20/99 -0300, Andrew Duke Cognition/In The Mix wrote: > >sam: i understand what you're saying, but just check out some rap > >acapellas:put on a public enemy track's acapella version and you will > *still* > >hear the power behind chuck d's lyrics. > > Yet the raps weren't created in a vacuum, they were in response to the > beats. > And listen to Chcuk D's weak raps over weak beats on the embarrasing > "Autobiography of Mistachuck". Ugh. I forced myself to listen to the > whole > thing, and i had to force hard. > > _________________________________ > Adam Roesch / roesch@augsburg.edu > Augsburg College / Minneapolis / MN / USA > http://dogbert.augsburg.edu/~roesch/ > > The world's most complete Pork > Recordings/Fila Brazillia site: > http://dogbert.augsburg.edu/~roesch/pork/ > > "The only disease we need in our blood is love" TRICKY >

I'm entirely in the other camp. The beats are allright but didn't grab me, not the way that Kool Keith's free association lyrics got me. What grabbed me the most was in earth people "Five colors / Yellow Green Red and Black / Purple." Sounds just like a freestyle "Oh shit, i said five colors, i need a fifth, uh...purple". And Biology 101: "Psychology is not applied biology / Nor is biology applied chemistry" as if he was angry about it. Since people's praise for the automator's Dr. Octagon drew Kool Keith to my attention. But i'm afraid of "Sex Style" of the Ultramagnetic's "Porn Star" is any indication. At 11:31 AM 4/21/99 -0400, Sam Frank wrote:

quoted 4 lines The production on the Dr Octagon

>The production on the Dr Octagon >album was great, but it seemed of a slightly diffreent mindset than >Keith's rapping, and that's why so many people seemed to like the beats, >but not his raps.

_________________________________ Adam Roesch / roesch@augsburg.edu Augsburg College / Minneapolis / MN / USA http://dogbert.augsburg.edu/~roesch/ The world's most complete Pork Recordings/Fila Brazillia site: http://dogbert.augsburg.edu/~roesch/pork/ "The only disease we need in our blood is love" TRICKY

Sam Frank wrote:

quoted 37 lines U seem to be looking at this thing from now, but in order to understand

> > > > U seem to be looking at this thing from now, but in order to understand > > anything U must first start from the beginning. > > > > Rappers dont need bands(music). Typically, while in NYC or D.C., I > > always wanted buddies to kick free-styles, for that is when they are at > > their best. Not when music is playing behind their rapps. > > > > To each his own, but there is nothing like walking up to a cat and say > > "bust a free" and he begins! In fact, if he cant, or says I need > > music---I just walk away! > > > > Hk-10! > > I understand your point, but you're misinterpreting me. I'm not talking > about rap's lyrical content, although I'm sure certain content goes well > with a certain sound and flow. I'm talking about the delivery itself, thwe > inmteraction between beat and rap. IMO, hip-hop is much more interesting > when both rap and beat work simultaneously--instrumental hip-hop is rarely > incredibly exciting, and loses a lot of the point of hip-hop, just as > instrumental rap seems more akin to straight, albeit heavily rhythmic, > poetry. I'm interested in the lyrics as well, but I'm most interested in > the combination of sounds. Of course, disagree if you want to. > > And re: starting from the beginning, I believe the beat started it off, > with toaster types over DJs, keeping the corwd going. > of course, there was proto-rap, like that scene in Dolomite where Dolomite > is entertaining the crowd. is there any literature on "proto-rap," some > heavily rhythmic poetry style that predated "actual" rap? > > One question--has a bizarre rapper like Kool Keith ever had beats that > adequately deal with his rapping style? The production on the Dr Octagon > album was great, but it seemed of a slightly diffreent mindset than > Keith's rapping, and that's why so many people seemed to like the beats, > but not his raps. I'd love to see him rap over completely freeform > arrangements--lyrical determinism, if you will. >

personally i think the ultramags music and keith were an incredible combination...admittedly it was before keith really started to go off on his baboon related ramblings (though i do enjoy them as well)... as for a perfect combination of beats, flow *and* lyrics, jeru/premo the sun rises in the east for me is utter perfection.... each track...damn....im getting excited just thinking about it....shame about the follow up tho... martin

Hey, Sam, long time no hear! Nice topic, this hip hop history. The reason why old school hip hop beats and mc-ing sound 'primitive' to you could be because of two things I haven't seen discussed: 1) They *were* literally primitive: Neither of the two disciplines was very mature, plain and simple. Real innovators like Rakim had not broken new ground in MC-ing, for example. It's like comparing Bix Beiderbeck (sp) with Dizzy Gillespie. At the time a lot of that stuff was really innovative, and like many innovations lacks polish and may seem a bit rough, especially when the genre matures and real masters are given a chance to practice the art form. As has already been said, a lot of the electronic music innovation in early 80's electro and hip-hop was supplanted by the fashion of sampling of "slicker" and more time-tested instrumental genres such as funk, rock, and disco (the kind of disco that had bassists and drummers like Chic). 2) Fashion. Some of those old school beats can be compared with today's minimal techno like the basic channel stuff pretty favorably if you put it in the right frame of mind, but one is more fashionable to some people than the other. Maybe it's just a matter of different strokes for different folks? But, the "which came first" thing is another story. I think it just depends on the artist. In my girlfriend's band (which basically consists of three hip hop heads, her singing, and everyone producing in some way) the songs come out of an iterative process, sometimes driven by the beats or riffs, sometimes by the lyrical structure, and sometimes by both. I think to say that hip hop works one way or the other is mistaken, just as it would probably be silly to ask George and Ira Gershwin whether they wrote for the piano or the vocal first. Also remember that in the sickeningly exploitative world of the hip hop record industry, a lot of rap stars get stuck with producers they may have never met before, or at the very least they get their beats delivered to them long after their lyrics are made. Hip Hop acts aren't like rock bands anymore. People don't get together and start bands in their garages - MCs develop lyrics and a persona and then, if they're lucky, they hook up with record labels and take whatever producer they can get or is most marketable. And this producer then makes a 'track' for them. My guess is that in many cases mainstream hip hop is not the collaborative artistic process it once was. What is it now? That would be an interesting essay - how electronic music and the music industry has diffused creative ownership all over the place to the point that it becomes meaningless to identify a creative originator for a lot of music out there. Worn out topics such as DJ culture and sampling connect with this too, but I think it's a new wrinkle. Also, you gotta admit that asking the IDM list about Hip Hop theory is like finding out about Goth culture on CNN. (And we're all gonna find out what that's like for the next month!) - Cf ' - . _ . - ' ^ ' - . _ . - ' ^ ' - . _ . - c h r i s t ø p h e r f ª h e y . _ . - ' ^ ' - . _ . - ' ^ ' - . _ . - ' ^ chris@raremedium.com 2 1 2 - 6 3 4 - 6 9 5 0 x 2 5 8 http://www.raremedium.com - ' ^ ' - . _ . - ' ^ ' - . _ . - ' ^ ' - .