IDM Mailing Archive

quoted 10 lines Date: Sat, 04 Oct 1997 07:38:29 -0700

> Date: Sat, 04 Oct 1997 07:38:29 -0700 > From: "Gonzi 'Fresh' Merchan" <fresh@linkonline.net> > Subject: Re: (idm) gonzi vs. bjoerk > > > Well, I have to jump in with my two cents here, if only because these > > "questions of authorship" are, in all essence, moot, if not ridiculous. > > Oh Alex. Questions of authorship are one of the most interesting issues > of electronic music - especially sample based music. At least I think so > at any rate. Nothing ridiculous about it.

Gonz, I agree with you, but you're getting your wires crossed. I meant in that postto imply that "authorship" as you and other idmers see it as really a discussion of credibility, which is, of course, subjective. Credibility as legitimacy, as in, who gets bragging rights on this list, and why (or more often, omitting reasons altogether and throwing in insults). IDM Lesson #1: Capital-A authorship is not credibility.

quoted 9 lines These folks are sampling, or using sampled sound, no? Since when were

> > These folks are sampling, or using sampled sound, no? Since when were > > Bjoerk, RDJ, Autechre, Cylob (well, he plays trombone, but rarely), et > > al., playing live instruments 100% of the time? These > > artists/thieves/whatever are all taking sound from other people (come on > > you slags) or equipment (303, anyone?). But this is academic, and anyone > > on this list should know that off the bat before making comments about > > "authorship." Especially you, Gonzi. > > Uhhh....now you're starting to split hairs.

No split hairs, man. These artists, including my heros Autechre (and your hero, Squarepusher), are quite literally thieves of the sonic variety. There's no way around it, really. Just the nature of the technology involved. Now you want to start to talk about why one thief is more legitimate a thief than the other, a la bjoerk vs. cylob. That's fine -- but (lesson #2) these two are both stealing their sound from other people. This is a fairly black and white reality. Every idmer should acknowledge this before making claims of which artist "keeps it real," a term wih absolutely no meaning in electronic music. Christ Gonz, you're a film student. I'm sure you've seen reels and reels of crappy Pulp Fiction ripoffs by other film students. I don't study film, and I know *I* have. There's a technique that goes down that everyone uses, a style. What makes thievery legitimate is how creative it is. The director for Swingers uses slow-motion as a film student reference to ResDogs and Raging Bull, but in a funny, tongue-in-cheek way. You can't compare bjoerk and cylob on creativity -- it's like comparing apples and oranges. You have to look at each on its own merits.

quoted 7 lines I'm not talking about who

> I'm not talking about who > makes the equipment (but who taught them to make the equipment, who > taught the person that taught him, aren't his parents really responsible > for him being here at all? You get the idea), I'm talking about who > writes the songs and who makes the music. It's not quite as complicated > as you're making it, it's right there in black and white in the liner > notes.

The liner notes omit (very often) the source of the sound. Alex Patterson is the only one with balls enough to credit other people, as far as I know. Which may not be alot, as it is -- if bjoerk and cylob have listed where their samples come from (come to think of it, cylob did mention rdj on cylobian sunset; anyways....) which they most likely haven't (or at least on a regular basis), then I stand corrected and humble.

quoted 3 lines How about some quality reviews, instead?

> > How about some quality reviews, instead? > > Show me yours and I'll show you mine. (I love that saying..)

Actually, Gonzi, my last three posts have been fairly lengthy reviews. I'll be on the lookout for those in-depth Bjoerk and Cylob reviews of yours... Alex

the problem is this list is made up of entirely too many music listeners, and not enough musicians. nobody has a fucking clue. everybody chill. it's music when you get it into your hands or into your ears. -- .- Doubtful Productions Evolving Media -. eric sherman http://www.doubtful.com szale@doubtful.com

On Mon, 29 Sep 1997, szalemandre wrote:

quoted 2 lines the problem is this list is made up of entirely too many music

> the problem is this list is made up of entirely too many music > listeners, and not enough musicians.

if that's an insult directed at me, i have more appreciation for more varied types of music than most musicians will ever have in their whole life. from your lack of meaningful input, i'd have to catagorize you into that group. "that's no bullshit, neither." i spend a good majority of my non-rent, non-utility, etc. income on exploring different types of music. i read and write reviews. i lurk more than post. when i read ignoramuses fighting over which group is better, for reasons that are just laughable, my blood boils. if you're going to compare musicians, have a base that is rational. if bjoerk and cylob have anything in common, it's that they plug their instruments into the wall and enjoy it. that's about where any discussion or comparison of their sound starts and ends. their employment situation outside of the music has no bearing whatsoever. e.g., plug, et al. will not change because they get paid by nothing records. IDM (and other "underground" music) lesson #4: there is no conspiracy to take away the good music we all like to listen to and have it replaced by evil record producers. buy and listen to what you like. for me, this lesson was the hardest to learn. once i got over my paranoia i was a free man. you folks don't have to be slaves, either.

quoted 1 line nobody has a fucking clue.

> nobody has a fucking clue.

least of all you, by your heavy-handed attempt to jump on a high horse! i've been here awhile and have seen this masked thread before. i think i have a clue and that i have a right to voice it.

quoted 1 line everybody chill.

> everybody chill.

where's your music, mr. musician? what insight can you give that we lack?

quoted 1 line it's music when you get it into your hands or into your ears.

> it's music when you get it into your hands or into your ears.

um, thanks for the feel-good, bumper-sticker, meaningnless idm quote of the year. still doesn't address why this "mainstream" vs. "underground" thread keeps popping up, which i think has more to do with the kids trying to establish a pecking order than any real desire to discuss idm or music in general. i think when non-music thread participating-people here admit *truthfully* why they post, which is just to get attention and throw nasty words at each other like little children, there will be a much healthier climate on the list. then again, probably not. don't know why i bother anymore. this used to be a quality, low-noise list. i should join the ambient list again -- at least when they had disagreements, it was over something meaningful. alex

szalemandre wrote:

quoted 5 lines the problem is this list is made up of entirely too many music

> the problem is this list is made up of entirely too many music > listeners, and not enough musicians. > > nobody has a fucking clue. > everybody chill.

These are my favorite types of posts! Insult everyone, then tell them to relax. Who gives a fuck if there aren't 'enough musicians' on this list. You don't have to be a 'musician' to listen to (or discuss) music. So watch you mouth sonny, or some of the non musicians on the list (like gonzi) might just eat your balls for breakfast... brock. np: Barry Adamson - 'The Negro Inside Me'