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Re: [idm] Indie Ethics & Learning the Law

9 messages · 5 participants · spans 1 day · search this subject
◇ merged from 3 subjects: indie ethics · indie ethics & learning the law · john, quiet down.
2003-03-11 20:17John Reading RE: [idm] john, quiet down.
└─ 2003-03-11 20:54EggyToast RE: [idm] john, quiet down.
2003-03-11 20:29c [idm] Indie Ethics
└─ 2003-03-11 20:56EggyToast Re: [idm] Indie Ethics
2003-03-11 21:26cutups Re: [idm] Indie Ethics
└─ 2003-03-12 11:54nethed Re: [idm] Indie Ethics
2003-03-12 16:31cutups Re: [idm] Indie Ethics
└─ 2003-03-12 17:07nethed Re: [idm] Indie Ethics & Learning the Law
2003-03-12 17:21cutups Re: [idm] Indie Ethics & Learning the Law
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2003-03-11 20:17John ReadingI'd like to see a show of hands of people that don't priate on this list. People always ta
From:
John Reading
To:
Date:
Tue, 11 Mar 2003 15:17:35 -0500
Subject:
RE: [idm] john, quiet down.
permalink · <5C7C936BF3522E448C5F0A0BF6E300C551F414@usispex00001.na.didata.local>
I'd like to see a show of hands of people that don't priate on this list. People always talking about how they refuse to pay for records on this list, then I get to hear about how marketing is evil and sexist. And warp is sexist and evil becuase Mira Claix is female and talentless. sorry, but I think I'm making a good point.
quoted 41 lines -----Original Message-----> -----Original Message----- > From: ben gill [mailto:gillette_foamy@yahoo.com] > Sent: Tuesday, March 11, 2003 3:13 PM > To: idm@hyperreal.org > Subject: [idm] john, quiet down. > > > One of the great things about having a mind is knowing > when to shut up. If you can't come up with anything > better than the last line of your email below, it's > one of those circumstances. Learn this and you'll > fool many people into believing you're a well-reasoned > man. > > Ben > > --- John Reading <john.reading@us.didata.com> wrote: > > ok, so Warp has Mira Calix on the label because she > > is a nerdy, > > attractive woman. > > > > you all would get fired from your marketing jobs > > lickety-split. > > > > What a cash cow that "appealing to nerdy, > > introspective male geeks" is. > > YOU ALL PIRATE YOUR SHIT ANYWAY! > > > > > __________________________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Web Hosting - establish your business online > http://webhosting.yahoo.com > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org > For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org > >
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2003-03-11 20:54EggyToastJohn Reading said: > > I'd like to see a show of hands of people that don't priate on this
From:
EggyToast
To:
Date:
Tue, 11 Mar 2003 15:54:13 -0500 (EST)
Subject:
RE: [idm] john, quiet down.
Reply to:
RE: [idm] john, quiet down.
permalink · <1442.128.220.50.51.1047416053.squirrel@www.eggtastic.com>
John Reading said:
quoted 7 lines I'd like to see a show of hands of people that don't priate on this> > I'd like to see a show of hands of people that don't priate on this > list. > > People always talking about how they refuse to pay for records on this > list, then I get to hear about how marketing is evil and sexist. And > warp is sexist and evil becuase Mira Claix is female and talentless.
I bought a Mira Calix release, direct from Warpmart. derek --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org
2003-03-11 20:29cno john you make a great point. i pay for all my music unless it is an mp3 only release. i
From:
c
To:
Date:
Tue, 11 Mar 2003 14:29:11 -0600
Subject:
[idm] Indie Ethics
permalink · <3E6E4717.75792AC6@scarcelight.com>
no john you make a great point. i pay for all my music unless it is an mp3 only release. im an artist. it is the right thing to do. mp3's arent hurting metallica, they hurt the indie labels and artists. nothing wrong with mp3's themselves it is how they are used (or misused) if you support indie music, you buy the release. i was at a radio station once where the dj's (rather than buy and support the cool music they loved so much) would hook up a laptop to the internet and stream mp3's over the airwaves.........something just not right about that in my world im sure i'll catch flack for my comments, but that is my two cents as both a consumer and an artist. John Reading wrote:
quoted 54 lines I'd like to see a show of hands of people that don't priate on this> I'd like to see a show of hands of people that don't priate on this > list. > > People always talking about how they refuse to pay for records on this > list, then I get to hear about how marketing is evil and sexist. And > warp is sexist and evil becuase Mira Claix is female and talentless. > > sorry, but I think I'm making a good point. > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: ben gill [mailto:gillette_foamy@yahoo.com] > > Sent: Tuesday, March 11, 2003 3:13 PM > > To: idm@hyperreal.org > > Subject: [idm] john, quiet down. > > > > > > One of the great things about having a mind is knowing > > when to shut up. If you can't come up with anything > > better than the last line of your email below, it's > > one of those circumstances. Learn this and you'll > > fool many people into believing you're a well-reasoned > > man. > > > > Ben > > > > --- John Reading <john.reading@us.didata.com> wrote: > > > ok, so Warp has Mira Calix on the label because she > > > is a nerdy, > > > attractive woman. > > > > > > you all would get fired from your marketing jobs > > > lickety-split. > > > > > > What a cash cow that "appealing to nerdy, > > > introspective male geeks" is. > > > YOU ALL PIRATE YOUR SHIT ANYWAY! > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > > Do you Yahoo!? > > Yahoo! Web Hosting - establish your business online > > http://webhosting.yahoo.com > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org > > For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org > > > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org > For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org
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2003-03-11 20:56EggyToastc said: > no john you make a great point. i pay for all my music unless it is an > mp3 onl
From:
EggyToast
To:
Date:
Tue, 11 Mar 2003 15:56:02 -0500 (EST)
Subject:
Re: [idm] Indie Ethics
Reply to:
[idm] Indie Ethics
permalink · <1451.128.220.50.51.1047416162.squirrel@www.eggtastic.com>
c said:
quoted 13 lines no john you make a great point. i pay for all my music unless it is an> no john you make a great point. i pay for all my music unless it is an > mp3 only release. > im an artist. it is the right thing to do. mp3's arent hurting > metallica, they hurt the indie labels and artists. nothing wrong with > mp3's themselves it is how they are used (or misused) if you support > indie music, you buy the release. > > i was at a radio station once where the dj's (rather than buy and > support the cool music they loved so much) would hook up a laptop to > the internet and stream mp3's over the airwaves.........something just > not right about that in my world > im sure i'll catch flack for my comments, but that is my two cents as > both a consumer and an artist.
They don't buy the CD's they play, either. Radio stations are on promo lists and usually get releases for free anyway. Obviously *that's* hurting record labels more than mp3's that require no production costs, eh? Wait, what's radio for again? -- eggytoast.com - eggtastic.com ------ catchy signature coming soon --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org
2003-03-11 21:26cutups> They don't buy the CD's they play, either. Radio stations are on promo lists > and usual
From:
cutups
To:
Date:
Tue, 11 Mar 2003 16:26:44 -0500
Subject:
Re: [idm] Indie Ethics
permalink · <005a01c2e814$ea36e010$b77c97d8@sgi1452>
quoted 1 line They don't buy the CD's they play, either. Radio stations are on promo> They don't buy the CD's they play, either. Radio stations are on promo
lists
quoted 6 lines and usually get releases for free anyway.> and usually get releases for free anyway. > > Obviously *that's* hurting record labels more than mp3's that require no > production costs, eh? > > Wait, what's radio for again?
I actually was wondering if there is a reason that college radio hasn't moved to just running straight off a computer. I know the local ones still use cds, which are mailed to them en masse by labels, and often seemed like a pretty big waste. Pretty much any university has the bandwidth to download high-qualitiy copies of trax, so it would seem more efficient to promote that way. - cutups --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org
2003-03-12 11:54nethedbecause universities all have had letters from the RIAA and their bandwidth costs are bein
From:
nethed
To:
cutups
Cc:
Date:
Wed, 12 Mar 2003 11:54:19 +0000
Subject:
Re: [idm] Indie Ethics
Reply to:
Re: [idm] Indie Ethics
permalink · <a05200f04ba94ccce6f71@[192.168.254.2]>
because universities all have had letters from the RIAA and their bandwidth costs are being monitored and some uni networking systems have the ability to control what you can and cant get. in the uk where i'm now teaching a class in advanced music business - talkin about this stuff - the schools on a 56k dialup! at least that's what everyone at the school says... and that wouldnt surprise me knowing the cost to set up a university on broadband in the UK... college radio stations dont run with any large budget from universities...if anyones on the list from college radio - maybe they can tell you how it works - most of them run by the intuition of the students without any related course work. unless things have changed in the states in the last 15 years when i was doin college radio. uni's arent offering how to dj on college radio courses... you just go in there and learn it... they may get a budget of like $20,000 to run the whole station for everything for the year. many of the college stations had to shut down their internet radio operations last year when the CARP bill was introduced because not all of them fell into the exception rule and they were gonna have to pay a lot of money to stream online so they chose to go OFF-LINE. perhaps you werent reading any of the posts on this list and others last year about the death of internet radio due to congressional legislation. Are you aware of what it costs universities, labels, etc to host/stream things like videos, mp3's? I'm talking about the bandwidth bill that's paid on the other side when you download from where you're getting - not a P2P site - but a streaming radio site? Also, most record contracts with labels, from sole operators to majors have "free goods" clauses as yes that's how the record industry works. Artists generally dont get paid royalties on xx number of free goods to enable best efforts for promotion purposes on the part of the label. That means that a label has the option to decide HOW best to promote the artist: they might want to give promos to one dj for an exclusive, they might want to give 500 CD's away to college radio, they might want to spend the money on a video or an MTV campaign. They might want to circulate some mp3s to generate interest - they might wanna run a pay per listen/view campaign for something in advance. btw: I wish to qualify that these comments do not necessarily reflect the opinions or policy of the email address i have. i'm speakin in general terms with points of information. I'm 100% behind the comments Jeff posted yesterday. nH
quoted 14 lines I actually was wondering if there is a reason that college radio> >I actually was wondering if there is a reason that college radio >hasn't moved to just running straight off a computer. I know the >local ones still use cds, which are mailed to them en masse by >labels, and often seemed like a pretty big waste. Pretty much >any university has the bandwidth to download high-qualitiy >copies of trax, so it would seem more efficient to promote that way. > >- cutups > > >--------------------------------------------------------------------- >To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org >For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org
-- Saul Williams "Not In My Name" http://www.ninjatune.net/downloads Free mp3 UK Release: 24th March http://www.notinournamemusic.com http://www.stopthewar.co.uk http://www.synchronicrecords.com US Release on Synchronic Records in May --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org
2003-03-12 16:31cutups> because universities all have had letters from the RIAA and their bandwidth > costs are
From:
cutups
To:
nethed
Cc:
Date:
Wed, 12 Mar 2003 11:31:22 -0500
Subject:
Re: [idm] Indie Ethics
permalink · <00df01c2e8b4$d4b6eaf0$1e95a6d1@wrecked>
quoted 1 line because universities all have had letters from the RIAA and their> because universities all have had letters from the RIAA and their
bandwidth
quoted 1 line costs are being monitored and some uni networking systems have the ability> costs are being monitored and some uni networking systems have the ability
to
quoted 1 line control what you can and cant get.> control what you can and cant get.
That might be true, but it still seems to me that labels would want college radio stations to have mp3s of their promos rather than have to mail them a physical cd (which costs money). I've spun on two local radio stations. They didn't have computers in the studio when i had a regular show, but they do now. I know you can certainly put digital audio on the machines, and FTP it, although i don't know if they block PTP. But thats not what i was talking about at all.
quoted 3 lines college radio stations dont run with any large budget from> college radio stations dont run with any large budget from > universities...if anyones on the list from college radio - maybe they > can tell you how it works -
Some have decent budgets, others do not. Both of the stations i worked with have excellent bandwidth though - the whole campus does.
quoted 1 line many of the college stations had to shut down their internet radio> many of the college stations had to shut down their internet radio
operations
quoted 1 line last year when the CARP bill was introduced because not all of them fell> last year when the CARP bill was introduced because not all of them fell
into
quoted 1 line the exception rule and they were gonna have to pay a lot of money to> the exception rule and they were gonna have to pay a lot of money to
stream
quoted 3 lines online so they chose to go OFF-LINE. perhaps you werent reading any> online so they chose to go OFF-LINE. perhaps you werent reading any > of the posts on this list and others last year about the death of > internet radio due to congressional legislation.
Yeah, thats another issue entirely though. I'm talking about playing mp3s on air.
quoted 5 lines Also, most record contracts with labels, from sole operators to> Also, most record contracts with labels, from sole operators to > majors have "free goods" clauses as yes that's how the record > industry works. Artists generally dont get paid royalties on xx > number of free goods to enable best efforts for promotion purposes on > the part of the label.
I'm not familiar with that although i certainly don't doubt you. I'm mostly talking about indie/small labels who promo their stuff to college radio. I'm sure they don't have a huge budget for promotions. From being involved with CMJ, there are hundreds of college radio stations (at least, say 100), and some labels service all of their releases to every (or most) stations. Thats thousands of dollars in merch. Alot of labels i work with don't even have the money to send real cds. However, if they could get airplay of mp3s, i'm sure they'd be all for it. I'm not talking about djs grabbing stuff on PTP and spinning it - i'm talking about djs playing mp3s that are made available on the air. Although (IMO) i don't look at playing PTP aquired mp3s as a bad idea either. To my knowledge though, the local college stations don't get serviced mp3s, or play them on air. Their libraries consist of "real" cds and vinyl. - cutups --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org
2003-03-12 17:07nethed> > >> Also, most record contracts with labels, from sole operators to >> majors have "fre
From:
nethed
To:
cutups
Cc:
Date:
Wed, 12 Mar 2003 17:07:07 +0000
Subject:
Re: [idm] Indie Ethics & Learning the Law
Reply to:
Re: [idm] Indie Ethics
permalink · <a05200f09ba95134c5614@[192.168.254.2]>
quoted 9 lines Also, most record contracts with labels, from sole operators to> > >> Also, most record contracts with labels, from sole operators to >> majors have "free goods" clauses as yes that's how the record >> industry works. Artists generally dont get paid royalties on xx >> number of free goods to enable best efforts for promotion purposes on >> the part of the label. > >I'm not familiar with that although i certainly don't doubt you.
May I humbly suggest that you and everyone on the idm list invest in donald passman's book "everything you wanteed to know about the record business" Its worth the $20/£16. there's a UK edition for those who live in the UK that explains the difference in 1) words used in contracts and 2) words used in the law. did you know that sampling is covered under us copyright law as a derivative work? its called something different in the UK. Its' better to have an understanding of how labels function and what the costs and constraints are before talking about it when you dont know about it. This isnt directed as a dis at you or anyone on idm but I see so many ill informed posts about how the record industry works and what costs what on this list over the last 4 years that i think its time everyone got some knowledge before they started posting opinions without backup. that brings me to your point about record labels sending college radio mp3s. it means someone at the label has to encode everything into mp3s and/or have an ftp site - or get another server to host the mp3s on. do you have an idea what the costs are for this? there's more expense behind it than you realise and manpower too. i cant speak for the present state of college radio in america, nor do i speak for ninja na or ninja uk - i've worked for 5 independent labels in 15 years & run my own label on someone else's expense account in the mid-90's... independent labels dont have the money/manpower to service ALL college radio and/or spend time mp3ing tracks tracks for radio promotions. i worked at college radio stations off and on for years and still have friends who are long past student age working at stations in the Bay Area.... They dont get sent everything by independent labels and believe it or not the DJ's I know GO OUT AND BUY RECORDS FOR THEIR RADIO SHOWS - even if it means they skip a lunch to pay for a record. The labels with big budget promosis the majors who service record pools AND have College Radio Teams. However, it'll be close to hell freezing over before the majors adopt mp3 as a format. Remember they killed DAT. College radio dj's dont have access to record pools and dont all get budgets according to those I know that work for them today. Perhaps someone who hosts their own MP3 site (not one on someone else's server that they blagged the bandwidth for) can tell us exactly how expensive it is to run a website and have mp3s on it that are constantly hit for download... Its called bandwidth costs... nethed
quoted 21 lines I'm mostly> I'm mostly >talking about indie/small labels who promo their stuff to college radio. >I'm sure they don't have a huge budget for promotions. From being involved >with CMJ, there are hundreds of college radio stations (at least, say 100), >and some labels >service all of their releases to every (or most) stations. Thats thousands >of dollars in merch. >Alot of labels i work with don't even have the money to send real cds. >However, >if they could get airplay of mp3s, i'm sure they'd be all for it. > >I'm not talking about djs grabbing stuff on PTP and spinning it - i'm >talking about >djs playing mp3s that are made available on the air. Although (IMO) i don't >look at playing PTP aquired mp3s as a bad idea either. > >To my knowledge though, the local college stations don't get serviced >mp3s, or play them on air. Their libraries consist of "real" cds and vinyl. > >- cutups >
-- SAUL WILLIAMS "Not In Our Name" campaign Saul Williams "Not In Our Name" http://www.ninjatune.net/downloads Free mp3 All profits to charity: UK Release: 24th March http://www.notinournamemusic.com http://www.stopthewar.co.uk http://www.synchronicrecords.com US release on Synchronic Records in May --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org
2003-03-12 17:21cutups>This isnt directed as a dis at you or anyone on idm but I see so many >ill informed posts
From:
cutups
To:
nethed
Cc:
Date:
Wed, 12 Mar 2003 12:21:31 -0500
Subject:
Re: [idm] Indie Ethics & Learning the Law
permalink · <002001c2e8bb$d3053f20$b77c97d8@sgi1452>
quoted 5 lines This isnt directed as a dis at you or anyone on idm but I see so many>This isnt directed as a dis at you or anyone on idm but I see so many >ill informed posts about how the record industry works and what >costs what on this list over the last 4 years that i think its time >everyone got some knowledge before they started posting opinions >without backup.
quoted 2 lines that brings me to your point about record labels sending college radio>that brings me to your point about record labels sending college radio >mp3s. it means someone at the label has to encode everything into mp3s
and/or
quoted 3 lines have an ftp site - or get another server to host the mp3s on. do you>have an ftp site - or get another server to host the mp3s on. do you >have an idea what the costs are for this? there's more expense >behind it than you realise and manpower too.
Sure i do know the costs and issues - i work for an ISP and am involved with running several web servers myself. Although running a whole webserver yourself isn't exactly the solution i was suggesting. The hosting we do is for free, although its for friends. There are a number of other free hosting options that companies could use if they don't have "the hookup" though. If they are already spending $500 per release to send out CDs, a $10 per month FTP site is pretty minimal. If they don't have the expertise or time to do it i could see that...they're a bit behind the times. Most labels have a website, even ones who don't do any servicing. I think though you could easily find somebody who would put their trax online for free if they just got promos of the actual releases. Aside from that - as has been discussed in this thread, most tracks are already available on PTP. Labels could just send "permission slips" to college stations to say its OK.
quoted 3 lines independent labels dont have the money/manpower to service ALL>independent labels dont have the money/manpower to service ALL >college radio and/or spend time mp3ing tracks tracks for radio >promotions. i worked at college radio stations off and on for years
Exactly the reason that i think servicing or "allowing" mp3s to be used would be good. It takes very little money and manpower, compared to servicing CDs. Like i said - i work with alot of labels that are too small to service college radio. All of them have mp3s around though. If college radio would make use of them.
quoted 8 lines and still have friends who are long past student age working at>and still have friends who are long past student age working at >stations in the Bay Area.... They dont get sent everything by >independent labels and believe it or not the DJ's I know GO OUT AND >BUY RECORDS FOR THEIR RADIO SHOWS - even if it means they skip a >lunch to pay for a record. The labels with big budget promosis the >majors who service record pools AND have College Radio Teams. >However, it'll be close to hell freezing over before the majors adopt >mp3 as a format. Remember they killed DAT.
I often brought in my own stuff for my college radio shows too, and spend *tons* of money on records. But that was just before MP3 was popular (barely) and before broadband was popular. You make alot of points - but i still haven't heard *why* college radio wouldn't use mp3s made available from labels. It makes alot of sense on both ends (to me). - cutups --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org