IDM Mailing Archive

Personally if you're sitting up there staring a lap top (Phoenicia, Plaid, Richard Devine, Kid 606, etc) it's not a live performance in my opinion (even if they are dancing around on stage with their shirt off). I have been pretty keen on what these acts were actually doing live and most have just been playing back sequences with out any real variation from the album. Either that our setting up a very long track and doing live effects processing/knob twiddling which I find to be quite boring (Autechre). Mouse on Mars, Mum, and Tortoise spend 3-4 hours doing a sound check, lug equipment all over the globe, improvise and communicate with both the crowd and each other on stage. That is a performance. I refuse to pay to see any more lap top "performances". I'll go home and listen to the "performance" in the comfort of my own home. To be honest I would rather go hear a DJ. At least they can keep a consistant groove. I am a lap top performer, so I shouldn't talk. I am however working with musicians on a live set. This, to me, is the necessary progression of electronic music in the live realm. Do any of you agree? ^(|_|)^ _________________________________________________________________ Join the world?s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

quoted 23 lines From: "Sean Horton" <sean_horton@hotmail.com>

>From: "Sean Horton" <sean_horton@hotmail.com> >To: idm@hyperreal.org >Subject: [idm] RE: (IDM) Lap Top "Performances" >Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 11:38:48 -0700 > >Personally if you're sitting up there staring a lap top (Phoenicia, Plaid, >Richard Devine, Kid 606, etc) it's not a live performance in my opinion >(even if they are dancing around on stage with their shirt off). I have >been pretty keen on what these acts were actually doing live and most have >just been playing back sequences with out any real variation from the >album. Either that our setting up a very long track and doing live effects >processing/knob twiddling which I find to be quite boring (Autechre). > >Mouse on Mars, Mum, and Tortoise spend 3-4 hours doing a sound check, lug >equipment all over the globe, improvise and communicate with both the crowd >and each other on stage. That is a performance. I refuse to pay to see any >more lap top "performances". I'll go home and listen to the "performance" >in the comfort of my own home. To be honest I would rather go hear a DJ. At >least they can keep a consistant groove. > >I am a lap top performer, so I shouldn't talk. I am however working with >musicians on a live set. This, to me, is the necessary progression of >electronic music in the live realm. Do any of you agree?

I hesitated to contribute to this thread since it's the same argument that crops up every month or so on both this and the microsound list. let me begin by prefacing with the fact that I am a laptop performer as well. Mouse on Mars, M?m and Tortoise are all selling considerably more records than most laptop musicians, and all 3 work in the studio with non-computer musicians. So it makes sense that they 1) bring non-computer musicians along to perform and 2) can afford to do so. Living here in Chicago without a car, and composing my music completely on my laptop, it doesn't make any sense to haul my entire studio around, nor to put together some band just for the sake of entertaining an audience. if the audience isn't interested in the music to begin with, i hardly think that adding a guitarist next to me is going to change their minds. besides that, there are added risks and costs that factor into lugging tons of gear around that a lot less established artists can't afford. a rock band can go up on stage and perform the exact same set of tried and true songs that everyone in the crowd knows and has recordings of. they can perform it note for note identically, and it's somehow considered more credible as a performance, when in fact the audience could do the exact same thing you've stated, which is to stay at home and listen to their recordings. a DJ, while a performer in his own right on a technical level, is really just laying down other people's music, albeit taking liberties with levels/mix/layering. But you could also argue that a DJ is playing back music note for note in the exact same way a laptop musician works (except that you can see him spinning the records). How is this more valid than someone who has specially put together a piece of original music for you to hear? Basically, I don't buy the rather arbitrary decision that electronic music should acquire a band to be experienced live. When half the sounds cannot be generated by anything other than a computer itself, why should one fight so hard to hide that fact? It seems like a step backwards... I don't feel like any artists needs to justify his/her music by dressing it up with a stage band, especially if it never was a part of the music to begin with. Were you bored by Autechre because they didn't have a band, or were you bored because you found their music boring? Would a band have made the musical idea (which in theory would not be much different) any less boring? On the one hand I'm a bit defensive because I perform with a laptop. But I also don't require too much personally when I go to see shows. Have I been bored by laptop performances before? Certainly, but it was a reflection on the music itself more often than being bored by the presence onstage. I understand some of your points but I don't think they embody "the necessary progression of electronic music in the live realm"..... as if all music needs to conform to one direction anyway. m.mercer :: design + sound design :: http://www.matthewmercer.com/ sound :: http://www.mattmercer.com _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

At 01:17 AM 8/15/2002 -0400, you wrote:

quoted 12 lines a rock band can go up on stage and perform the exact same set of tried and

>a rock band can go up on stage and perform the exact same set of tried and >true songs that everyone in the crowd knows and has recordings of. they >can perform it note for note identically, and it's somehow considered more >credible as a performance, when in fact the audience could do the exact >same thing you've stated, which is to stay at home and listen to their >recordings. a DJ, while a performer in his own right on a technical level, >is really just laying down other people's music, albeit taking liberties >with levels/mix/layering. But you could also argue that a DJ is playing >back music note for note in the exact same way a laptop musician works >(except that you can see him spinning the records). How is this more valid >than someone who has specially put together a piece of original music for >you to hear?

I agree with this to a point -- the fans will always attend and be happy to see the show. However, there are also plenty of rock shows by well-established artists that fans with completely and utterly hate. Usually because the person just sang the songs, played the notes, and that was it. Most people look forward to hearing a "live" version which includes possibilities for mistakes, extended "jams," and so on. Personally, I think that's one of the real defining factors for a live show. I saw Coldcut live and they could've easily just had a sequencer running the audio and video while they ate a pizza on stage, but instead, they recreated everything live, and it was different each time -- I'd seen videos of previous shows and heard some bootlegs before I saw them. Using a band really helps for on-stage improvisation because any one of those persons can extend songs, mix them up, and so on, and if the band is a good band, it can roll with those changes and do really great things on stage. How many times have you seen even a mediocre band end a song but have the drummer keep doing his own thing for a while, the other band members look at each other in a sort of "ok, i think i know what we can do next,", then suddenly breaking back into a song you've never heard before? It's one of the great aspects of live music, in my opinion. And that's sort of the problem with a lot of gear-based or computer-based live music -- the musician is so busy keeping his/her basic track going that they can't interact with the audience, can't improvise, can't bounce off other musicians and play around with the music. The most successful acts, I've noticed, DO have a way to interact with the audience at the very least by changing music around and paying attention (aka looking up and seeing what's happening with those people who paid money to see the person perform). The reason so many people think gear-based or computer-based one-man-shows are boring is because they *are* the equivalent of listening to music at home, only with really expensive drinks and nowhere to sit down. Ideally, you attend a show to "see what happens," not to "know what happens and revel in your ego." I'd seen about 10 good-sized IDM shows by november of last year, and it took some punk idm kid from baltimore touring small venues on a shoestring budget for me to actually hear the voice of an idm artist. He said "hey guys," he told us to buy some records, and some other things. I think that's great for a live show. Now, if it was a dance club and he was being paid only to provide continuous music, it wouldn't've fit in at all, but since everyone was there to see him and was looking for a *good show*, he gave a good show. Kudos to him. I don't mind the occasional taciturn idm-performer, but I'm sure plenty of people paying for the show are just as curious about the people behind it as they are about the music. I mean, unless you're a really geeky nerd boy with no life, in which case you should at least put that on the fliers so we can come prepared (with squirtguns). derek ------- eggytoast.com ------- with lather thingy --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

quoted 13 lines Using a band really helps for on-stage improvisation because any one of

>Using a band really helps for on-stage improvisation because any one of >those persons can extend songs, mix them up, and so on, and if the band is >a good band, it can roll with those changes and do really great things on >stage. How many times have you seen even a mediocre band end a song but >have the drummer keep doing his own thing for a while, the other band >members look at each other in a sort of "ok, i think i know what we can do >next,", then suddenly breaking back into a song you've never heard before? >It's one of the great aspects of live music, in my opinion. > >And that's sort of the problem with a lot of gear-based or computer-based >live music -- the musician is so busy keeping his/her basic track going >that they can't interact with the audience, can't improvise, can't bounce >off other musicians and play around with the music.

This just isn't true. New software allows for improvosation and "Jamming" on stage with your laptop. I do it everytime I perform. Anything a band can do, I can do. -yep. Peace, Chad Mossholder ** Twine ** ???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????. http://www.twinesound.com info@twinesound.com .??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? --"The original is unfaithful to the copy." Jorge Luis Borges _________________________________________________________________ Join the world?s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

At 12:17 PM 8/15/2002 -0500, you wrote:

quoted 17 lines Using a band really helps for on-stage improvisation because any one of

>>Using a band really helps for on-stage improvisation because any one of >>those persons can extend songs, mix them up, and so on, and if the band >>is a good band, it can roll with those changes and do really great things >>on stage. How many times have you seen even a mediocre band end a song >>but have the drummer keep doing his own thing for a while, the other band >>members look at each other in a sort of "ok, i think i know what we can >>do next,", then suddenly breaking back into a song you've never heard before? >>It's one of the great aspects of live music, in my opinion. >> >>And that's sort of the problem with a lot of gear-based or computer-based >>live music -- the musician is so busy keeping his/her basic track going >>that they can't interact with the audience, can't improvise, can't bounce >>off other musicians and play around with the music. > >This just isn't true. New software allows for improvosation and "Jamming" >on stage with your laptop. I do it everytime I perform. Anything a band >can do, I can do.

I'm not necessarily saying that the things I'm speaking about are impossible, simply that they're something nearly all "laptop performers" either are not practiced enough to do, or simply choose not to go down the route of "interaction." Like I said, there are plenty of boring bands that do absolutely nothing to engage the audience, and they have just as many options as you do. I'm happy you decide to "play" your songs and interact with what's going on and talk to the audience and all that, but that definitely puts you in the minority of idm performances. derek ------- eggytoast.com ------- with lather thingy --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

quoted 3 lines From: "concrete cookie" <cookie@mashup.org>

>>From: "concrete cookie" <cookie@mashup.org> > hello, > Does anyone go out anymore just to enjoy themselves and hang out with

their

quoted 4 lines buddies? Or do people tend to stand behind the performer checking what

> buddies? Or do people tend to stand behind the performer checking what > computer applications they're running? > > Personally, I could care less if someone's music is close to their cd or

not

quoted 9 lines if the atmosphere/tunes are enjoyable. Its good fun to go out, chat with

> if the atmosphere/tunes are enjoyable. Its good fun to go out, chat with > friends and listen to some tunes... > > Would anyone even really know if performance was "live" or "dead" if that > was the first time you heard the musician? (HEARD being the operative word > here) I guess I prefer to enjoy the music/time/space than staring at the > stage and comparing it to rock and roll. > > cookie

it's not about comparing it to rock and roll... nothing of the sort. it's more about the gear i think. for me anyway... when you're a musician, you have a slightly different set of priorities when going to a show. i HATE when i go to see music and the music itself is drowned out by mindless chattering. very irritating. why not go outside and sit at the bar or whatever and talk? there's MUSIC in there to be heard...NOT talked over. i think that's very disrespectful. i go to listen to the music, not to socialize... maybe a bit, but not the whole nite blabbering while someone is performing something. you're coming from more of a social viewpoint...the music is an ambience to the socializing (if i'm understanding you correctly). i consider the music to be the focal point. if you want to socialize, go to the bar and do it. imagine yourself acting out a play... would you like if everyone in the audience was chattering away while you were performing? db --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

quoted 107 lines From: "professor vast" <professorvast11@hotmail.com>

>From: "professor vast" <professorvast11@hotmail.com> >To: "Sean Horton" <sean_horton@hotmail.com> >Subject: Re: [idm] RE: (IDM) Lap Top "Performances" >Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 11:25:00 -0700 > > >>From: "Sean Horton" <sean_horton@hotmail.com> > > If I am paying $10-$20 I expect more than a someone staring blank faced >at >a lap top. I typically don't socialize during the music because that is why >I am there. I wait till after the show to mingle. I enjoy just listening. I >could care less what program the artist is running, it's what they do with >the program. My point is if the artist is going to just play tracks >identical to the album off their lap top, why not forgo the mystery and >just >play a CD. There's really not much of a difference. > >that's EXACTLY my main point... what's the difference between what they're >doing with the laptop and just playing the bloody cd... ?? > > > Rock and Roll is dead and there's no comparison in my book to electronic >music. I do beleive if your going to go on tour, charging admission and >billing yourself and a "live" act you should give the people that are there >(perhaps drives hours to get there) some showmanship. > >rock and roll isn't really dead...just oh hiatus... it needs to come back >but with a wicked electronic edge... >and that's what my mission in life is :o) > >(btw, did you intend this to be copied to list as well?) > >db > > > > > > > >From: "professor vast" <professorvast11@hotmail.com> > > >To: <idm@hyperreal.org> > > >Subject: Re: [idm] RE: (IDM) Lap Top "Performances" > > >Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 11:04:56 -0700 > > > > > > >>From: "concrete cookie" <cookie@mashup.org> > > > > hello, > > > > Does anyone go out anymore just to enjoy themselves and hang out >with > > >their > > > > buddies? Or do people tend to stand behind the performer checking >what > > > > computer applications they're running? > > > > > > > > Personally, I could care less if someone's music is close to their >cd >or > > >not > > > > if the atmosphere/tunes are enjoyable. Its good fun to go out, chat >with > > > > friends and listen to some tunes... > > > > > > > > Would anyone even really know if performance was "live" or "dead" if >that > > > > was the first time you heard the musician? (HEARD being the >operative >word > > > > here) I guess I prefer to enjoy the music/time/space than staring >at >the > > > > stage and comparing it to rock and roll. > > > > > > > > cookie > > > > > >it's not about comparing it to rock and roll... nothing of the sort. > > > > > >it's more about the gear i think. for me anyway... when you're a >musician, > > >you have a slightly different set of priorities when going to a show. > > > > > >i HATE when i go to see music and the music itself is drowned out by > > >mindless chattering. very irritating. why not go outside and sit at the > > >bar or whatever and talk? there's MUSIC in there to be heard...NOT > > >talked over. i think that's very disrespectful. > > > > > >i go to listen to the music, not to socialize... maybe a bit, but not >the > > >whole > > >nite blabbering while someone is performing something. > > > > > >you're coming from more of a social viewpoint...the music is an >ambience > > >to the socializing (if i'm understanding you correctly). i consider the > > >music > > >to be the focal point. if you want to socialize, go to the bar and do >it. > > > > > >imagine yourself acting out a play... would you like if everyone in the > > >audience was chattering away while you were performing? > > > > > >db > > > > > >--------------------------------------------------------------------- > > >To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org > > >For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org > > > > > > > > > > > > > ^(|_|)^ > > > >

^(|_|)^ _________________________________________________________________ Join the world?s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

Have you used "Live" or "Max/MSP"?

quoted 43 lines From: "--|.TWINE.|-- >" <twine_sound@hotmail.com>

>From: "--|.TWINE.|-- >" <twine_sound@hotmail.com> >To: eggy@eggytoast.com, idm@hyperreal.org >Subject: Re: [idm] RE: (IDM) Lap Top "Performances" >Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 12:17:51 -0500 > >>Using a band really helps for on-stage improvisation because any one of >>those persons can extend songs, mix them up, and so on, and if the band is >>a good band, it can roll with those changes and do really great things on >>stage. How many times have you seen even a mediocre band end a song but >>have the drummer keep doing his own thing for a while, the other band >>members look at each other in a sort of "ok, i think i know what we can do >>next,", then suddenly breaking back into a song you've never heard before? >> It's one of the great aspects of live music, in my opinion. >> >>And that's sort of the problem with a lot of gear-based or computer-based >>live music -- the musician is so busy keeping his/her basic track going >>that they can't interact with the audience, can't improvise, can't bounce >>off other musicians and play around with the music. > >This just isn't true. New software allows for improvosation and "Jamming" >on stage with your laptop. I do it everytime I perform. Anything a band >can do, I can do. > >-yep. > >Peace, >Chad Mossholder >** Twine ** >???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????. >http://www.twinesound.com >info@twinesound.com >.??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? >--"The original is unfaithful to the copy." Jorge Luis Borges > > >_________________________________________________________________ >Join the world?s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. >http://www.hotmail.com > > >--------------------------------------------------------------------- >To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org >For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

^(|_|)^ _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org