IDM Mailing Archive

2001-01-16 18:36Kent williamsI think the whole "writing about music is like dancing about architecture" quote has long

From:: Kent williams <kent@avalon.net>
To:: i'd do mary <idm@hyperreal.org>
Date:: Tue, 16 Jan 2001 12:36:29 -0600 (CST)
Subject:: [idm] dancing about architecture

I think the whole "writing about music is like dancing about architecture" quote has long been misinterpreted. Most people seem to take it to mean that writing about music is a category error -- you can't describe it successfully so why try. I think what it can also mean is this: you can take one form of human expression and re-interpret it in another, and the translation or mis-translation from one media to another can make for interesting art. Both Stewart Walker and Richie Hawtin have talked about making music that is a response to and a meditation on pieces of sculpture they particularly like. When it comes to writing about music, it's something I do a lot, so I think that it can be done. Otherwise I wouldn't bother. You can describe in words the technical details of music -- instruments, timbres, rhythms. You can describe the context in which the music is valid. And you can use metaphor to describe it's effect on the listener. So it's a completely valid, and valuable endeavor. And since we're on a mailing list where we natter away endlessly on the subject, it's ultimately absurd to bring up that quote ... kent williams -- kent@avalon.net http://www.cornwarning.com -- Iowa's First Techno Record Label http://www.mp3.com/chaircrusher -- tunes --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

2001-01-16 19:18fstab@yaxu.orgOn Tue, 16 Jan 2001, Kent williams wrote: > When it comes to writing about music, it's som

From:: <fstab@yaxu.org>
To:: <idm@hyperreal.org>
Date:: Tue, 16 Jan 2001 19:18:21 +0000 (GMT)
Subject:: Re: [idm] dancing about architecture
Reply to:: [idm] dancing about architecture

On Tue, 16 Jan 2001, Kent williams wrote:

quoted 2 lines When it comes to writing about music, it's something I do a lot, so I

> When it comes to writing about music, it's something I do a lot, so I > think that it can be done. Otherwise I wouldn't bother.

yes. but you can only go so far. we (or at least, i) lack the diction to describe sound to any level of satisfaction. when we describe sound using words like 'bright', 'dark', 'textured', 'hard', 'sharp', we're drawing in words used for our other senses. i can feel some satisfaction in describing a piece of music using elaborate genres, like 'jazzy french techno' or 'minimal glitch', but any other person will interpret that differently from me. so talking about music is hard. everyone interprets music in their own way... no wonder reviewers end up talking about themselves and the other music the like. but it is a good process to go through. i guess dancing about architecture is good too. so i am agreeing with you, and adding a tangent... --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

2001-01-16 22:39EggyToastbut this same problem arises in every sense-oriented field. you describe flavors based on

From:: EggyToast <youn0394@umn.edu>
To:: <fstab@yaxu.org>, <idm@hyperreal.org>
Date:: Tue, 16 Jan 2001 16:39:53 -0600
Subject:: Re: [idm] dancing about architecture
Reply to:: Re: [idm] dancing about architecture

but this same problem arises in every sense-oriented field. you describe flavors based on very basic things and through analogies, you describe smells the same way (although through more analogies), and touch is equally similar. since we as humans currently devote almost all of our sensory focus on vision, it's easy to describe what we see, and more difficult to describe the other senses. the fun part about this is that it requires much more conversation on a given subject. sure it's a pain when you know the person listening doesn't care, but when someone really does care, it's nice to see how you (or how someone else) express yourself. cheers, /derek np: marumari-wolves hollow (just showed up about 20 minutes ago, sounds pretty good so far :D) At 07:18 PM 1/16/2001 +0000, fstab@yaxu.org wrote:

quoted 26 lines On Tue, 16 Jan 2001, Kent williams wrote:

>On Tue, 16 Jan 2001, Kent williams wrote: > > When it comes to writing about music, it's something I do a lot, so I > > think that it can be done. Otherwise I wouldn't bother. > >yes. but you can only go so far. > >we (or at least, i) lack the diction to describe sound to any level of >satisfaction. when we describe sound using words like 'bright', 'dark', >'textured', 'hard', 'sharp', we're drawing in words used for our other >senses. > >i can feel some satisfaction in describing a piece of music using >elaborate genres, like 'jazzy french techno' or 'minimal glitch', but any >other person will interpret that differently from me. > >so talking about music is hard. everyone interprets music in their own >way... no wonder reviewers end up talking about themselves and the other >music the like. but it is a good process to go through. i guess dancing >about architecture is good too. > >so i am agreeing with you, and adding a tangent... > > >--------------------------------------------------------------------- >To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org >For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

- - - - - Alice could not help her lips curing up into a smile as she began: "Do you know, I always thought Unicorns were fabulous monsters, too! I never saw one alive before!" "Well, now that we HAVE seen each other," said the Unicorn, "if you'll believe in me, I'll believe in you. Is that a bargain?" --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

2001-01-16 19:08tommy bringing up that quotation wasn't a 'why bother' type comment.. it was meant to be more

From:: tom <tomagotchi@lineone.net>
To:: <idm@hyperreal.org>
Date:: Tue, 16 Jan 2001 19:08:51 +0000
Subject:: Re: [idm] dancing about architecture

my bringing up that quotation wasn't a 'why bother' type comment.. it was meant to be more of a challenge i guess. however i do resent the comment that it was 'absurd' for me to bring this up in coversation on the 'IDM' list. for approximately 3 years i did freelance music journalism for various magazines, starting on a local scale and then working my way into respected national publications in the UK. i gave up writing reviews of records because i realised i just couldn't do it. ok, i could try and describe the technical aspects and elements of the tracks was writing about... but to describe every detail (any of which were missed would be a misrepresentation of the music) is impossible, not just due to lack of column inches but also the fact that you are hardly gonna write out musical score are you? i also think that people who enjoy reading reviews entirely consisting of technical detail are in a severe minority. biographical detail is interesting in my opinion and before you ask, yes for me it does enhance the experience of listening to music. to place this particular piece of art in it's location is important to me, but that doesn't describe the music. for instance, with the forthcoming EU minialbum on PAUSE_2, every publication which has written about it has naturally mentioned the fact that they are russian. this doesn't help me imagine the record, but having heard the record it might help me feel more in tune with it. before you ask, yes. i read a lot of magazines and i enjoy reading music reviews. i don't base purchasing decisions on them though, most often i read what is said simply for biographical detail. with this list, i read peoples posts with interest and then go to a record shop and listen to the records. i personally cannot hope to imagine what a record can sound like from reading a review.. of, you say it sounds like a 'chain reaction' record.. but that means nothing. it is just a vague, roundabout type way of describing it. and it seems false... anyway.. mr music journalist. explain idm to a deaf person. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

2001-01-16 19:54Kent williamsOn Tue, 16 Jan 2001, tom wrote: > my bringing up that quotation wasn't a 'why bother' type

From:: Kent williams <kent@avalon.net>
To:: i'd do mary <idm@hyperreal.org>
Date:: Tue, 16 Jan 2001 13:54:50 -0600 (CST)
Subject:: Re: [idm] dancing about architecture
Reply to:: Re: [idm] dancing about architecture

On Tue, 16 Jan 2001, tom wrote:

quoted 4 lines my bringing up that quotation wasn't a 'why bother' type comment.. it was

> my bringing up that quotation wasn't a 'why bother' type comment.. it was > meant to be more of a challenge i guess. however i do resent the comment > that it was 'absurd' for me to bring this up in coversation on the 'IDM' list. >

Hold on there bunky. I didn't intend any disrespect. I guess the absurdity was general and not particular -- that quote has frequently come up. And step back a bit -- isn't a quote that seems to argue against writing about music, presented on a list that does nothing but, qualify as absurd?

quoted 3 lines i also think that people who enjoy reading reviews entirely consisting of

> > i also think that people who enjoy reading reviews entirely consisting of > technical detail are in a severe minority.

Sure. They read SOS and Future Music etc. By 'technical detail' I guess I wasn't talking about total music dweeb dissection -- more like descriptions of the objective components of the music, like tempo, maybe some of the sounds used, etc.

quoted 4 lines anyway.. mr music journalist. explain idm to a deaf person.

> > anyway.. mr music journalist. explain idm to a deaf person. > >

See my other post. Just turn it up so they can feel it. You explain things so that people understand them, and luckily music is something you can experience and enjoy without totally understanding it. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

2001-01-16 19:28Gause, BrianI don't think it's always possible to 'write about music'...or any art for that matter. I

From:: Gause, Brian <bgause@SECTORBASE.COM>
To:: <idm@hyperreal.org>
Date:: Tue, 16 Jan 2001 11:28:39 -0800
Subject:: RE: [idm] dancing about architecture

I don't think it's always possible to 'write about music'...or any art for that matter. I make my living as a writer and I spend much of my free time writing...and I still don't write about music the way that I HEAR that music...so inevitably, it comes out incomplete and dissatisfying, however well expressed. Writing about music, or any art, is more complicated than simply knowing how to absorb that art and then translate those feelings into a written language. To me, that translation cheapens the music...to others I've read online, that translation can become its own thing. To my mind, it never mirrors the music, but it may sometimes reflect a piece of its emotional effect. I find music reviews fascinating because of this effect, whether intended or not. in short, you're both right. ---brian ------------------------ Brian W. Gause Senior Technical Writer SECTORBASE.com 568 Howard Street First Floor San Francisco, CA 94105 Direct: (415) 365-8203 Fax: (415) 365-8263 -----Original Message----- From: fstab@yaxu.org [mailto:fstab@yaxu.org] Sent: Tuesday, January 16, 2001 11:18 AM To: idm@hyperreal.org Subject: Re: [idm] dancing about architecture On Tue, 16 Jan 2001, Kent williams wrote:

quoted 2 lines When it comes to writing about music, it's something I do a lot, so I

> When it comes to writing about music, it's something I do a lot, so I > think that it can be done. Otherwise I wouldn't bother.

yes. but you can only go so far. we (or at least, i) lack the diction to describe sound to any level of satisfaction. when we describe sound using words like 'bright', 'dark', 'textured', 'hard', 'sharp', we're drawing in words used for our other senses. i can feel some satisfaction in describing a piece of music using elaborate genres, like 'jazzy french techno' or 'minimal glitch', but any other person will interpret that differently from me. so talking about music is hard. everyone interprets music in their own way... no wonder reviewers end up talking about themselves and the other music the like. but it is a good process to go through. i guess dancing about architecture is good too. so i am agreeing with you, and adding a tangent... --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

2001-01-16 22:50Arnold LayneWow, You guys sure can argue about inane things! Every day I'm completely amazed at the Ps

From:: Arnold Layne <l__________@hotmail.com>
To:: <youn0394@umn.edu>, <fstab@yaxu.org>, <idm@hyperreal.org>
Date:: Tue, 16 Jan 2001 22:50:58 -0000
Subject:: Re: [idm] dancing about architecture

Wow, You guys sure can argue about inane things! Every day I'm completely amazed at the Pseudo-intellectualism on this list. Hahaha. You guys crack me up. I mean, of course words can't properly describe the arts. I thought Plato discovered that a long time ago. But, I'm glad you guys are all rehashing it ;) I would expect nothing less from the prestigious IDM list. =p --AL

quoted 66 lines From: EggyToast <youn0394@umn.edu>

>From: EggyToast <youn0394@umn.edu> >To: <fstab@yaxu.org>, <idm@hyperreal.org> >Subject: Re: [idm] dancing about architecture >Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2001 16:39:53 -0600 > >but this same problem arises in every sense-oriented field. you describe >flavors based on very basic things and through analogies, you describe >smells the same way (although through more analogies), and touch is equally >similar. since we as humans currently devote almost all of our sensory >focus on vision, it's easy to describe what we see, and more difficult to >describe the other senses. > >the fun part about this is that it requires much more conversation on a >given subject. sure it's a pain when you know the person listening doesn't >care, but when someone really does care, it's nice to see how you (or how >someone else) express yourself. > >cheers, >/derek > >np: marumari-wolves hollow (just showed up about 20 minutes ago, sounds >pretty good so far :D) > >At 07:18 PM 1/16/2001 +0000, fstab@yaxu.org wrote: > >>On Tue, 16 Jan 2001, Kent williams wrote: >> > When it comes to writing about music, it's something I do a lot, so I >> > think that it can be done. Otherwise I wouldn't bother. >> >>yes. but you can only go so far. >> >>we (or at least, i) lack the diction to describe sound to any level of >>satisfaction. when we describe sound using words like 'bright', 'dark', >>'textured', 'hard', 'sharp', we're drawing in words used for our other >>senses. >> >>i can feel some satisfaction in describing a piece of music using >>elaborate genres, like 'jazzy french techno' or 'minimal glitch', but any >>other person will interpret that differently from me. >> >>so talking about music is hard. everyone interprets music in their own >>way... no wonder reviewers end up talking about themselves and the other >>music the like. but it is a good process to go through. i guess dancing >>about architecture is good too. >> >>so i am agreeing with you, and adding a tangent... >> >> >>--------------------------------------------------------------------- >>To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org >>For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org > > >- - - - - >Alice could not help her lips curing up into a smile as she began: >"Do you know, I always thought Unicorns were fabulous monsters, too! I >never saw one alive before!" > >"Well, now that we HAVE seen each other," said the Unicorn, "if you'll >believe in me, I'll believe in you. Is that a bargain?" > > >--------------------------------------------------------------------- >To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org >For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org >

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2001-01-16 23:01Gause, Brianthis from a man who's userid is a pink floyd song title? now that's irony. are you a bowie

From:: Gause, Brian <bgause@SECTORBASE.COM>
To:: 'Arnold Layne' <l__________@hotmail.com>, <idm@hyperreal.org>
Date:: Tue, 16 Jan 2001 15:01:49 -0800
Subject:: RE: [idm] dancing about architecture

this from a man who's userid is a pink floyd song title? now that's irony. are you a bowie fan? ---brian ------------------------ Brian W. Gause Senior Technical Writer SECTORBASE.com 568 Howard Street First Floor San Francisco, CA 94105 Direct: (415) 365-8203 Fax: (415) 365-8263 -----Original Message----- From: Arnold Layne [mailto:l__________@hotmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, January 16, 2001 2:51 PM To: youn0394@umn.edu; fstab@yaxu.org; idm@hyperreal.org Subject: Re: [idm] dancing about architecture Wow, You guys sure can argue about inane things! Every day I'm completely amazed at the Pseudo-intellectualism on this list. Hahaha. You guys crack me up. I mean, of course words can't properly describe the arts. I thought Plato discovered that a long time ago. But, I'm glad you guys are all rehashing it ;) I would expect nothing less from the prestigious IDM list. =p --AL

quoted 66 lines From: EggyToast <youn0394@umn.edu>

>From: EggyToast <youn0394@umn.edu> >To: <fstab@yaxu.org>, <idm@hyperreal.org> >Subject: Re: [idm] dancing about architecture >Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2001 16:39:53 -0600 > >but this same problem arises in every sense-oriented field. you describe >flavors based on very basic things and through analogies, you describe >smells the same way (although through more analogies), and touch is equally >similar. since we as humans currently devote almost all of our sensory >focus on vision, it's easy to describe what we see, and more difficult to >describe the other senses. > >the fun part about this is that it requires much more conversation on a >given subject. sure it's a pain when you know the person listening doesn't >care, but when someone really does care, it's nice to see how you (or how >someone else) express yourself. > >cheers, >/derek > >np: marumari-wolves hollow (just showed up about 20 minutes ago, sounds >pretty good so far :D) > >At 07:18 PM 1/16/2001 +0000, fstab@yaxu.org wrote: > >>On Tue, 16 Jan 2001, Kent williams wrote: >> > When it comes to writing about music, it's something I do a lot, so I >> > think that it can be done. Otherwise I wouldn't bother. >> >>yes. but you can only go so far. >> >>we (or at least, i) lack the diction to describe sound to any level of >>satisfaction. when we describe sound using words like 'bright', 'dark', >>'textured', 'hard', 'sharp', we're drawing in words used for our other >>senses. >> >>i can feel some satisfaction in describing a piece of music using >>elaborate genres, like 'jazzy french techno' or 'minimal glitch', but any >>other person will interpret that differently from me. >> >>so talking about music is hard. everyone interprets music in their own >>way... no wonder reviewers end up talking about themselves and the other >>music the like. but it is a good process to go through. i guess dancing >>about architecture is good too. >> >>so i am agreeing with you, and adding a tangent... >> >> >>--------------------------------------------------------------------- >>To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org >>For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org > > >- - - - - >Alice could not help her lips curing up into a smile as she began: >"Do you know, I always thought Unicorns were fabulous monsters, too! I >never saw one alive before!" > >"Well, now that we HAVE seen each other," said the Unicorn, "if you'll >believe in me, I'll believe in you. Is that a bargain?" > > >--------------------------------------------------------------------- >To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org >For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org >

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2001-01-17 07:57philippe petitWriting about music, or any art, is more complicated than simply knowing how to absorb tha

From:: philippe petit <philippe-petit@wanadoo.fr>
To:: <idm@hyperreal.org>
Date:: Wed, 17 Jan 2001 08:57:02 +0100
Subject:: [idm] dancing about architecture

Writing about music, or any art, is more complicated than simply knowing how to absorb that art and then translate those feelings into a written language. To me, that translation cheapens the music...to others I've read online, that translation can become its own thing. To my mind, it never mirrors the music, but it may sometimes reflect a piece of its emotional effect. I find music reviews fascinating because of this effect, whether intended or not. When I'm most inspired to write a review I hope that I manage to share the feelings I have when I listen to the album. I try to describe the images, emotions, feelings, whatever the music had evoked and hopefully readers will share the experience, or at least feel an urge to discover the record. When I'm not so inspired I'd quote musical genres, other groups' names, etc... the usual and sort of boring way commonly used by the press but which at least give you an idea on what the record is about. Obviously there is no better way than listening to the record at your local store and press clips should only be hints... clues to help us not to miss a good record. Surely not an accurate description of a record, especially if it is a brilliant album which obvioussly couldn't be summarized in a few lines. philippe ************************************************************** http://www.bip-hop.com unconventional sound adventures, adventurous & creative electronica... ************************************************************** BiP-HOp Generation v.1 MARUMARI / SCHNEIDER TM / PHONEM / GOEM / ULTRA MILKMAIDS / MASSIMO BiP-HOp Generation v. 2 AROVANE / BERNARD FLEISCHMANN / WARMDESK / KÖHN / WANG INC. / LAURENT PERNICE Bip-Hop is a label devoted to spread unconventional sound adventures, adventurous & creative electronica... sounds, based on machines, mix, modulations, modifications, sampling, glitches, clicks & cuts... blip... bleep... bip... BiP-HOp Generation ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

2001-01-17 10:19Mann, Ravinder [CCS]Dont know who came up with the term "Hoover Basslines" to describe the sound of E-dancer.

From:: Mann, Ravinder [CCS] <R.Mann@lmu.ac.uk>
To:: <idm@hyperreal.org>
Date:: Wed, 17 Jan 2001 10:19:50 -0000
Subject:: RE: [idm] dancing about architecture

Dont know who came up with the term "Hoover Basslines" to describe the sound of E-dancer. But for me it works. What works for you ?? Mayesqe Cymbal Programming not allowed.

quoted 66 lines -----Original Message-----

> -----Original Message----- > From: EggyToast [SMTP:youn0394@umn.edu] > Sent: Tuesday, January 16, 2001 10:40 PM > To: fstab@yaxu.org; idm@hyperreal.org > Subject: Re: [idm] dancing about architecture > > but this same problem arises in every sense-oriented field. you describe > flavors based on very basic things and through analogies, you describe > smells the same way (although through more analogies), and touch is equally > similar. since we as humans currently devote almost all of our sensory > focus on vision, it's easy to describe what we see, and more difficult to > describe the other senses. > > the fun part about this is that it requires much more conversation on a > given subject. sure it's a pain when you know the person listening doesn't > care, but when someone really does care, it's nice to see how you (or how > someone else) express yourself. > > cheers, > /derek > > np: marumari-wolves hollow (just showed up about 20 minutes ago, sounds > pretty good so far :D) > > At 07:18 PM 1/16/2001 +0000, fstab@yaxu.org wrote: > > >On Tue, 16 Jan 2001, Kent williams wrote: > > > When it comes to writing about music, it's something I do a lot, so I > > > think that it can be done. Otherwise I wouldn't bother. > > > >yes. but you can only go so far. > > > >we (or at least, i) lack the diction to describe sound to any level of > >satisfaction. when we describe sound using words like 'bright', 'dark', > >'textured', 'hard', 'sharp', we're drawing in words used for our other > >senses. > > > >i can feel some satisfaction in describing a piece of music using > >elaborate genres, like 'jazzy french techno' or 'minimal glitch', but any > >other person will interpret that differently from me. > > > >so talking about music is hard. everyone interprets music in their own > >way... no wonder reviewers end up talking about themselves and the other > >music the like. but it is a good process to go through. i guess dancing > >about architecture is good too. > > > >so i am agreeing with you, and adding a tangent... > > > > > >--------------------------------------------------------------------- > >To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org > >For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org > > > - - - - - > Alice could not help her lips curing up into a smile as she began: > "Do you know, I always thought Unicorns were fabulous monsters, too! I > never saw one alive before!" > > "Well, now that we HAVE seen each other," said the Unicorn, "if you'll > believe in me, I'll believe in you. Is that a bargain?" > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org > For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

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2001-01-17 17:12philippe petitDont know who came up with the term "Hoover Basslines" to describe the sound of E-dancer.

From:: philippe petit <philippe-petit@wanadoo.fr>
To:: <idm@hyperreal.org>
Date:: Wed, 17 Jan 2001 18:12:08 +0100
Subject:: [idm] dancing about architecture

Dont know who came up with the term "Hoover Basslines" to describe the sound of E-dancer. But for me it works. What works for you ?? ah man caliente for sure Gaudi is really inspirational e la sagrada familia esta muy daansante... philippe ************************************************************** http://www.bip-hop.com unconventional sound adventures, adventurous & creative electronica... ************************************************************** BiP-HOp Generation v.1 MARUMARI / SCHNEIDER TM / PHONEM / GOEM / ULTRA MILKMAIDS / MASSIMO BiP-HOp Generation v. 2 AROVANE / BERNARD FLEISCHMANN / WARMDESK / KÖHN / WANG INC. / LAURENT PERNICE Bip-Hop is a label devoted to spread unconventional sound adventures, adventurous & creative electronica... sounds, based on machines, mix, modulations, modifications, sampling, glitches, clicks & cuts... blip... bleep... bip... BiP-HOp Generation ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

RE: [idm] dancing about architecture