IDM Mailing Archive

While I'm thinking about squarepusher, anyone care to suggest some good stuff by any other artists that's similar to Big Loada? Eddie

I think Clifford Gilberto Rhythm Combination should do.

quoted 13 lines -----Original Message-----

> -----Original Message----- > From: idm-owner@hyperreal.org [mailto:idm-owner@hyperreal.org]On > Behalf Of Eddie Symons > Sent: Monday, July 05, 1999 6:21 PM > To: idm@hyperreal.org > Subject: Re: (idm) []pusher & recommendations > > > While I'm thinking about squarepusher, anyone care to suggest some good > stuff by any other artists that's similar to Big Loada? > > Eddie >

quoted 4 lines While I'm thinking about squarepusher, anyone care to suggest some good

>While I'm thinking about squarepusher, anyone care to suggest some good >stuff by any other artists that's similar to Big Loada? > >Eddie

Try ROM=PARI's View (Sub Rosa), parts of Solar X's Pretty Little Automatic (Worm Interface), Bomb 20's Field Manual (DHR), Rude66's 66 Deadly Sins 12" (Kultbox), Kid-606's Don't Sweat The Technics (Vinyl Communications), anything by Tusken Raiders (aka Mike Paradinas) on Planet µ. These aren't carbon copies of Big Loada, but they contain much of that album's spirit. Dave Segal Managing Editor/Alternative Press Reviews/BPM/Reissue Redux/Origins Of Cool Secret Ions on WCSB Thursdays 9-11PM EST www.wcsb.org np: v/a- enter the monkey [mad monkey]

drift wood wrote:

quoted 5 lines I was playing this last night - (stop me if this thread was already

> > I was playing this last night - (stop me if this thread was already > aired last Sept) and it definately sounds like Tom on bass on that > 'Wierd' track and also on 'Filla'. Anyone with more info? >

I think that Clifford plays all his own bass- trust me, much as we'd all like to believe TJ is an unheralded bass genius, pretty much all five and six string electric bassists sound the same after a little while (to me! but I played with/ saw a few in my trombone days! So hey!) Of course, still waiting for Victor Wooten (of Flecktones fame) to come out with his electronic alias. For that matter, any of the Flecktones. Maybe I should drive over to Nashville and offer to engineer. Ha. Tom

quoted 3 lines I think Clifford Gilberto Rhythm Combination should do.

> I think Clifford Gilberto Rhythm Combination should do. > > While I'm thinking about squarepusher, anyone care to suggest some good > > stuff by any other artists that's similar to Big Loada?

beg to differ -- clifford gilberto might be akin to 'music is rotted one note' but as far as i know certainly not to 'big loada'. i wouldn't recommend gilberto to anyone unless they know what they're getting into (i.e. fusion wank). -- david turgeon at http://www.notype.com

quoted 9 lines I think Clifford Gilberto Rhythm Combination should do.

> > I think Clifford Gilberto Rhythm Combination should do. > > > While I'm thinking about squarepusher, anyone care to suggest > some good > > > stuff by any other artists that's similar to Big Loada? > > beg to differ -- clifford gilberto might be akin to 'music is rotted one > note' but as far as i know certainly not to 'big loada'. i wouldn't > recommend gilberto to anyone unless they know what they're getting into > (i.e. fusion wank).

I agree that big loada is less like Clifford but for me it is the closest rival to Tom's early works. IMHO And of course I cannot agree on music rotted one note akin to Clifford. It is not in any way. As it is not akin to his own earlier works. I think he just decided to say: "Fuck with you all, I'm a free artist and not a pre-order pop star". If it is so, I'm with him (though I still cannot dig this one). Alien np. Red Snapper "Prince Blimey"

quoted 3 lines --

> > -- > david turgeon at http://www.notype.com

quoted 9 lines I think Clifford Gilberto Rhythm Combination should do.

>> I think Clifford Gilberto Rhythm Combination should do. >> > While I'm thinking about squarepusher, anyone care to suggest some good >> > stuff by any other artists that's similar to Big Loada? > >beg to differ -- clifford gilberto might be akin to 'music is rotted one >note' but as far as i know certainly not to 'big loada'. i wouldn't >recommend gilberto to anyone unless they know what they're getting into >(i.e. fusion wank). >

I guess you haven't heard the "Earth vs. Me" track ( I think that's the title ), sounds VERY much like "Come On My Selector" on "Big Loada".

quoted 4 lines beg to differ -- clifford gilberto might be akin to 'music is rotted one

> beg to differ -- clifford gilberto might be akin to 'music is rotted one > note' but as far as i know certainly not to 'big loada'. i wouldn't > recommend gilberto to anyone unless they know what they're getting into > (i.e. fusion wank).

Maybe, but at least full-bodied brassy fusion wank. I wish somebody had posted something similar before I blew $20 on "Feed Me Weird Things." & Gilberto at least has some of the loungey Esquivel vibe that makes his record amusing to listen to while drinking heavily and thrusting your pelvis around like an idiot. I'll agree it has nothing to do with Big Loada, but by no means does that mean it's not a fun record. Tom

quoted 5 lines & Gilberto at least has some of the loungey Esquivel vibe that makes his

> & Gilberto at least has some of the loungey Esquivel vibe that makes his > record amusing to listen to while drinking heavily and thrusting your > pelvis around like an idiot. > I'll agree it has nothing to do with Big Loada, but by no means does > that mean it's not a fun record.

my story with gilberto: a few months ago (perhaps a year even, can't remember), i enter the record store & doing so discover two brand new ninja tune full-length albums by gilberto & the irresistible force with accompanying singles. i'm broke, so i decide on checking out the singles as they are much cheaper. i put 'nepalese bliss' in the listening station. listen. wonder 'what the FUCK?' & put it back where it was. then i figure that at least the gilberto single 'deliver the weird' must at least be good (plus it has a nicer sleeve) so i pick it up instead, without even listening to it. what a mistake. upon arriving home i realize that the record is, well, what it is. sell the record back. buy something else. god knows what. incidentally, the only ninja tune related record i bought since then is neotropic's '15 levels of magnification' which i thought was quite boring. that's all a shame since i really liked some of ninja's output (amon tobin, funki porcini, animals on wheels) but everything else i've checked out was simply not my taste -- too simple, too tame -- so i was expecting ntone, which is lauded as the 'experimental' side of ninja tune (no offence ninjeff & other ninja execs, but please allow me to cough some on that one) to make up for the lack of chin-scratching. i'm considering giving flanger a try, though, but that's because i have a huge fondness for atom heart's (or more precisely lisa carbon's) take on jazz. i'm going to recommend 'experimental post-techno swing' for the rest of my life i'm sure, even though i'm positive most of you would hate it. :) it should also be said that my record buyings were quite unfortunate around that time, & that on the same day i also bought such tired & tame records as jessamine's 'the long arm of coincidence' & rachel's' 'handwriting', both of which i sold back & for that am quite a better man i'm sure. god knows WHY anybody would care about this last rant, but it felt good to spew. -- david turgeon at http://www.notype.com

quoted 4 lines beg to differ -- clifford gilberto might be akin to 'music is rotted >one

>beg to differ -- clifford gilberto might be akin to 'music is rotted >one >note' but as far as i know certainly not to 'big loada'. i wouldn't >recommend gilberto to anyone unless they know what they're getting into >(i.e. fusion wank).

OY! i disagree. clifford is so accessable. come on, it's got looney toons samples. such an enjoyable listen, makes perfect sense. can't say the same for rotted note: it hurts my ears and makes people on the subway stare at me. tomas

quoted 5 lines And of course I cannot agree on music rotted one note akin to Clifford. It

> And of course I cannot agree on music rotted one note akin to Clifford. It > is not in any way. As it is not akin to his own earlier works. I think he > just decided to say: "Fuck with you all, I'm a free artist and not a > pre-order pop star". If it is so, I'm with him (though I still cannot dig > this one).

It really trips me out that so many people on the list don't live "muisc is one rotted note." The first time I heard it I flipped... I still love it. It has such a great blend of grooves+noise+drums. Would it be safe to say that most of you also don't enjoy Miles Davis? "Music is" has such a "bitches brew" vibe to it - it also parallels several of the Live Miles CDs (which are a pleasure to listen to!). Or maybe it all has to do with the fact that "Music is" goes where electronic music doesn't usually go and that the tracks are more like jams or even songs - as opposed to is other blippy/303madness/superchopo-drum-freaks/occasional-bass-noodle tracks. "Music is" was the 1st Squarepusher CD I bought - and now, 8 months or so later, I've purchased almost everything he has released (I have a feeling there are some underlying beta wave transmissions in his songs which have programmed my brain to become addicted to his music!). The album seems so ORGANIC, so alive, I can close my eyes and see him playing this stuff. AH I wish I could see him perform... but we all know about that from that one guy's post months ago... the great "Squarepusher live review AN ANGRY FLAME" from May 1999 From: Crtrdge003@aol.com Ah... now that was a thread :) Ok... time for coffee! Good day to all. -- Hasta, Gideon ............................................ Sonic Wallpaper http://www.sonicwallpaper.com http://www.mp3.com/sonicwallpaper Tragic Furniture http://www.mp3.com/tragicfurniture CatalystMedia Corporation http://www.CatalystMedia.com ............................................

On Wed, 7 Jul 1999, gideon wrote:

quoted 4 lines Or maybe it all has to do with the fact that "Music is" goes where

> Or maybe it all has to do with the fact that "Music is" goes where > electronic music doesn't usually go and that the tracks are more like > jams or even songs - as opposed to is other > blippy/303madness/superchopo-drum-freaks/occasional-bass-noodle tracks.

please define: "song". please site examples and references. i was under the impression all the idm stuff i had was in the form of song. thanks! chris.

On 7 Jul 99, zimbo wrote re: Re: (idm) []pusher & recommendation:

quoted 1 line please define: "song".

> please define: "song".

OED : a musical composition for singing. I *

quoted 5 lines And of course I cannot agree on music rotted one note akin to Clifford. It

> And of course I cannot agree on music rotted one note akin to Clifford. It > is not in any way. As it is not akin to his own earlier works. I think he > just decided to say: "Fuck with you all, I'm a free artist and not a > pre-order pop star". If it is so, I'm with him (though I still cannot dig > this one).

well, how about: they're both fusion jazz. how akin is that? sure, tom j is the mad breakthroughman & clifford j the happy follower, but they're essentially fishing in the same pond. that said, i shall now shut up, for i am obviously too biased against fusion jazz to try to make sense out of it or see a difference between two subgenres of it. which is fine by me! -- david turgeon at http://www.notype.com

quoted 4 lines Or maybe it all has to do with the fact that "Music is" goes where

> Or maybe it all has to do with the fact that "Music is" goes where > electronic music doesn't usually go and that the tracks are more like > jams or even songs - as opposed to is other > blippy/303madness/superchopo-drum-freaks/occasional-bass-noodle tracks.

i'm still waiting for the first electronic free jazz record. now _that_ would be going where electronic music doesn't usually go. argh. again. sorry about that. -- david turgeon at http://www.notype.com

quoted 3 lines i'm still waiting for the first electronic free jazz record. now _that_

> > i'm still waiting for the first electronic free jazz record. now _that_ > would be going where electronic music doesn't usually go.

While I can't think of many off the top of my head, there are plenty of experimental works that mix free jazz and electronics. Stuff with Ikue Mori and the Tzadik label, maybe Orchestra 33.3 (haven't heard it for a while so I might be wrong), and plenty of others. Only problem is, they "aren't" IDM. Free jazz is usually not dancable and pretty random-feeling/abrasive, and so are the electronics that accompany it. Thus, it doesn't have the pulse that usally accompanies even the weirdest so-called IDM (Mego, etc. excluded), and it doesn't get brought up on this list. Any recommendations? It does annoy me that when I hear "jazzy" in a description of IDM, I can almost invariably be right in my guess that the jazz referred to is either lite jazz or fusion. I guess lite jazz does have a history of accompanying certain kinds of dance musics--house, soul, etc., but that doesn't mean it should remain THE definition of IDM jazz. Even Amon Tobin cut up old jazz, instead of interesting new stuff. No one seems willing to try something different. Sam

quoted 4 lines please define: "song".

> please define: "song". > please site examples and references. > i was under the impression all the idm stuff i had was in the form of > song.

Well - I didn't get that one by you eh? Well - to me there are TRACKS and there are SONGS - if you stop for a moment, you can probably see where I'm going with this. Songs are more structured it seems whereas tracks are more like... I don't know... um just music... Songs tend to have melodies, many tracks don't. I'm not fully in tune with what IDM is - I actually think it's a stupid name - anything with the word 'intelligent' in it makes me wonder... like the CIA! It's like when some company releases a product or service and they slap on the word 'Professional' - always makes me question the true value... if something is intelligent or professional, then it doesn't need to be stated as such. So... songs... well, lets see - I write music - some of what I write are songs - others are tracks - the stuff I write on guitar I tend to call songs - the stuff I create with my synths/sampler/computer/sequencer - I call tracks. WHY? because the guitar stuff is more "song" oriented in terms of progressions, musical structure, a chorus, verse, etc. My TRACKS on the otherhand move from this comfort into a more non-linear environment - it's more of an sonic exploration. A lot of the music I now buy leans towards TRACKS - I tend to feel that a lot of electronic music can be defined more as tracks than songs. It's really a useless thing to define - but it's an interesting one to contemplate. After thinking more about it - "Music is" has a blend of SONGS and TRACKS. I don't think I explained myself well - but hey, I'm usually still in bed at this hour! Sorry I couldn't site references for you - I have a shitload of work to do today including some silly meetings. -- Hasta, Gideon ............................................ Sonic Wallpaper http://www.sonicwallpaper.com http://www.mp3.com/sonicwallpaper Tragic Furniture http://www.mp3.com/tragicfurniture CatalystMedia Corporation http://www.CatalystMedia.com ............................................

thats pretty much how id describe the difference...pretty much everything i write is a track...only the occasional song as such... but its still a pretty blurry line between the two... i think that the word song is used (by me anyway) when you can relate the structure / composition of a song to a previously established form of music...whereas tracks are just tracks...they start..they go on for a bit..then they stop... martin

quoted 4 lines please define: "song".

>> please define: "song". >> please site examples and references. >> i was under the impression all the idm stuff i had was in the form of >> song.

g> Well - I didn't get that one by you eh? Well - to me there are TRACKS g> and there are SONGS - if you stop for a moment, you can probably see g> where I'm going with this. g> Songs are more structured it seems whereas tracks are more like... I g> don't know... um just music... Songs tend to have melodies, many tracks g> don't. g> I'm not fully in tune with what IDM is - I actually think it's a stupid g> name - anything with the word 'intelligent' in it makes me wonder... g> like the CIA! It's like when some company releases a product or service g> and they slap on the word 'Professional' - always makes me question the g> true value... if something is intelligent or professional, then it g> doesn't need to be stated as such. g> So... songs... well, lets see - I write music - some of what I write are g> songs - others are tracks - the stuff I write on guitar I tend to call g> songs - the stuff I create with my synths/sampler/computer/sequencer - I g> call tracks. WHY? because the guitar stuff is more "song" oriented in g> terms of progressions, musical structure, a chorus, verse, etc. My g> TRACKS on the otherhand move from this comfort into a more non-linear g> environment - it's more of an sonic exploration. g> A lot of the music I now buy leans towards TRACKS - I tend to feel that g> a lot of electronic music can be defined more as tracks than songs. It's g> really a useless thing to define - but it's an interesting one to g> contemplate. g> After thinking more about it - "Music is" has a blend of SONGS and g> TRACKS. g> I don't think I explained myself well - but hey, I'm usually still in g> bed at this hour! g> Sorry I couldn't site references for you - I have a shitload of work to g> do today including some silly meetings. %

quoted 3 lines While I can't think of many off the top of my head, there are plenty of

> While I can't think of many off the top of my head, there are plenty of > experimental works that mix free jazz and electronics. Stuff with Ikue > Mori and the Tzadik label, maybe Orchestra 33.3 [...]

don't know about orchestra 33.3 (i recall hearing good words about it though) but i have ikue mori's 'garden', an excellent album, although it sounds quite cold & calculated -- much in the vein of zorn's sound. but it's still more 'contemporary' than 'free jazz', at least to my ear. then again, one could argue that contemporary music is quite the same as free jazz, but i don't think this is entirely true, although the line between those genres _is_ being blurred up more & more. i suppose what i think electronics would _heavily_ benefit from is the 'free' element from 'free jazz'. & by that i don't mean that live players are necessary (i.e. squarepusher), but rather that new ways of playing rigid-sounding instruments such as beatboxes, synths, samplers, & other hardware or software, can be found by analyzing free jazz music. the song structure is chaotic but melody & tonal progression remain a priority, even if these end up sounding extremely abstract, so that rather than a conceptual array of sounds whose melody & tonality are dismissed as secondary to the profit of a research in pure form (which is what contemporary & avant-garde music sounds to me), you end up with something more immediately appealing to & understandable by the listener, all the while keeping the chaotic structure & general 'edge'.

quoted 3 lines It does annoy me that when I hear "jazzy" in a description of IDM, I can

> It does annoy me that when I hear "jazzy" in a description of IDM, I can > almost invariably be right in my guess that the jazz referred to is either > lite jazz or fusion.

yup. ain't that uncanny? -- david turgeon at http://www.notype.com

On Wed, 7 Jul 1999, david turgeon wrote:

quoted 12 lines i suppose what i think electronics would _heavily_ benefit from is the

> i suppose what i think electronics would _heavily_ benefit from is the > 'free' element from 'free jazz'. & by that i don't mean that live > players are necessary (i.e. squarepusher), but rather that new ways of > playing rigid-sounding instruments such as beatboxes, synths, samplers, > & other hardware or software, can be found by analyzing free jazz > music. the song structure is chaotic but melody & tonal progression > remain a priority, even if these end up sounding extremely abstract, so > that rather than a conceptual array of sounds whose melody & tonality > are dismissed as secondary to the profit of a research in pure form > (which is what contemporary & avant-garde music sounds to me), you end > up with something more immediately appealing to & understandable by the > listener, all the while keeping the chaotic structure & general 'edge'.

i think low res, and at times, phthalocyanine do a good job of this. but thats me.. chris. music, four lunchpails: wednesdays 7-9pm kuci 88.9fm www.kuci.org "Nope. Sorry. I don't give up my hardcore for IDM." _chicks dig laptops_

fuck jazz .

Excerpts from mail: 7-Jul-99 Re: (idm) []pusher & recomm.. by "me"@headcleaner.com

quoted 1 line fuck jazz .

> fuck jazz .

It may surprise you to learn that both words historically were very closely related.... Aaron np: Ming & FS "Hell's Kitchen" (Om CD-r)

quoted 1 line fuck jazz .

> fuck jazz .

Isn't that what they first said Red Snapper was, fuck jazz? <joke>

fuck you coltrane is the best musician of the 20th century... dont start frontin.. m> fuck jazz . %

quoted 7 lines It does annoy me that when I hear "jazzy" in a description of IDM, I can

> It does annoy me that when I hear "jazzy" in a description of IDM, I can > almost invariably be right in my guess that the jazz referred to is either > lite jazz or fusion. I guess lite jazz does have a history of accompanying > certain kinds of dance musics--house, soul, etc., but that doesn't mean > it should remain THE definition of IDM jazz. Even Amon Tobin cut up old > jazz, instead of interesting new stuff. No one seems willing to try > something different.

A lot of times the jazz connection goes way back, to the days when jazz was the only instrumental alternative to classical. Plus the chord structure in techno & IDM generally follows jazz frameworks even if the musicians themselves don't know it. But you could say the same about rock. The major chord went out of style so long ago... My friends and I have been working on doing free jazz-type work with all electronic instruments, but it's hard to do because electronic instruments and accompanying FX have completely different universes of expression from one another. With a jazz ensemble, all the players have very similar expressive directions available to them based on the similar options their instruments give them. With drum machines, delay units, analog and digital synthesizers, you get vastly disparate ranges of expression and control. So you can get some cool techno-sounding drone or pulsing stuff but it's hard to go somewhere else without things falling apart. One of the things that's fun about doing it w/ electronic instruments is letting the instruments do the work, though. A trombone produces exactly what you put into it, while a Juno or a TR-series or a delay unit can produce fucked up stuff with minimal input from you (esp. in the proper combinations). Tom

YEAH COLTRANE... uhg - he produced the REAL thing... pure love... pure music... also... I like the other guy's post... "fuck jazz" as a sub-genre of JAZZ! Good ole music to get it on with and to! Lately I've been screwing to some Acid Jazz - my girl just got turned onto this type of music and digs it... We got it on to ORB the other day... that was interesting... so... yeah... COLTRANE... JAZZ... Squarepusher... Fuck... ok bye! martin wrote:

quoted 9 lines fuck you

> > fuck you > > coltrane is the best musician of the 20th century... > dont start frontin.. > > m> fuck jazz . > > %

-- Hasta, Gideon ............................................ Sonic Wallpaper http://www.sonicwallpaper.com http://www.mp3.com/sonicwallpaper Tragic Furniture http://www.mp3.com/tragicfurniture CatalystMedia Corporation http://www.CatalystMedia.com ............................................

Crtrdge003@aol.com wrote:

quoted 2 lines you don't consider "music is" to be free jazz? I think it's very much

> you don't consider "music is" to be free jazz? I think it's very much so. > It's also electronic... well not 100%.. but it still is.

no. 'music is rotted one note' is unmistakably fusion jazz. free jazz is different: think coltrane, sun ra, pharoah sanders, & more recently borah bergman, anthony braxton, peter bro:tzmann, ellery eskelin... i could namecheck for hours, the bottom line being that all improvisation is not free jazz although free jazz _is_ based on improvisation, though with a certain set of sounds & tones, & a particular research, but a deeply abstracted _jazz_ root, whereas fusion gets its form from genres other than jazz (rock, electronic, etc.) -- david

giles.ward@postoffice.co.uk wrote:

quoted 7 lines Subject Re: (idm) []pusher & recommendations

> > Subject Re: (idm) []pusher & recommendations > > >fuck jazz . > > and I thought J. Atkins said Jazz was the teacher? But what does he know > eh? ;-)

What, you never wanted to fuck your teacher? Tom

Subject Re: (idm) []pusher & recommendations

quoted 1 line fuck jazz .

>fuck jazz .

and I thought J. Atkins said Jazz was the teacher? But what does he know eh? ;-)

In a message dated 7/7/99 11:01:53 AM EDT, samuel.frank@yale.edu writes:

quoted 4 lines While I can't think of many off the top of my head, there are plenty of

> While I can't think of many off the top of my head, there are plenty of > experimental works that mix free jazz and electronics. Stuff with Ikue > Mori and the Tzadik label, maybe Orchestra 33.3 (haven't heard it for a > while so I might be wrong)

the Orchester 33 1/3 disc is great! but it's not really free jazz. more of a salmagundi jazz - a little improv, a little hard bop, a little surf guitar, a little Peter Brotzmann, a little vocal weirdness, a little of whatever you want to call Ralph Carney, etc - all roughly charted in advance on Christian Fennesz and Christoff Kurzmann's PowerBooks then handed off to a massive ensemble for open interpretation. amazing. i've never heard anything else like it. free jazz and electronics? what about the Evan Parker/Lawrence Casserley disc on Touch (Solar Wind), the two Evan Parker Electroacoustic Ensemble titles on ECM, and the Evan Parker Live at Les Instants Chavires on Leo? and his "interpretation" on Disinformation's AL JABR is totally unreal. not to get too Parker-crazy. but, hey - the guy's amazing. some of the Simon Fell titles on Bruce's Fingers fit the free-jazz/electronics bill. though Fell seems to have more in common with Anthony Braxton. and, since he's calling many of his compositions, er, Compositions... maybe you could drag in the whole "is it?/isn't it?" argument that jazzbos level against Braxton. still, incredible stuff. so where does free jazz end and improv begin? if we're going to walk into that puddle, you might as well check out all the Günter Müller + (fill in the blank) titles on For 4 Ears. start with Müller/Marclay and either Müller/O'Rourke. you won't be dissapointed. mr. e. now on: jimmy giuffre 3: thesis (ecm)

quoted 2 lines i'm still waiting for the first electronic free jazz record. now >_that_

>i'm still waiting for the first electronic free jazz record. now >_that_ >would be going where electronic music doesn't usually go.

wouldn't that be phthalocyanine then? tomas

quoted 3 lines i'm still waiting for the first electronic free jazz record. now >_that_

> >i'm still waiting for the first electronic free jazz record. now >_that_ > >would be going where electronic music doesn't usually go. > wouldn't that be phthalocyanine then?

is it? i've been contemplating getting 'navy warships' for the longest time. maybe it's time i order one. -- david

quoted 3 lines I'll take it a step further and hazard to say that a DJ takes tracks and weaves

>I'll take it a step further and hazard to say that a DJ takes tracks and weaves >each discrete track, as an easily definable unit, into a song, an hour-long >song if you will.

DJs don't do shit.

quoted 1 line DJs don't do shit.

> DJs don't do shit.

If there is no wink accompanying that statement, then I have to speak up. Have you seen a good ambient (or IDM) DJ lately? Two or three turntables, a couple of CD players, a tape deck perhaps, building and layering, sampling and staging, EQing and effecting. Taking songs, tracks, snippets, sounds and transforming them to such a point that even other DJs or afficianados can no longer recognize the original sources. Building crescendo, easing into decrescendo, dropping beats, playing shit backwards, shifting tempos and time signatures and tones. Seeing the larger picture of a soundscape lasting several hours, segues to the next DJ, 2x4 DJ combos, turntable improv with guitarists and other musicians, etc. DJs do lots. At least the ones with whom I associate. G.

quoted 5 lines From: david turgeon <eerie@mnemonic.net>

>From: david turgeon <eerie@mnemonic.net> >To: tomas@yirku.com >Subject: Re: (idm) []pusher & recommendations >Date: Wed, Jul 7, 1999, 3:50 PM >

quoted 9 lines i'm still waiting for the first electronic free jazz record. now >_that_

>> >i'm still waiting for the first electronic free jazz record. now >_that_ >> >would be going where electronic music doesn't usually go. >> wouldn't that be phthalocyanine then? > >is it? i've been contemplating getting 'navy warships' for the longest >time. maybe it's time i order one. > >-- >david

Order it. You won't be sorry. Another jazzy d&b album nobody's mentioned: Derek Bailey's Guitar, Drum & Bass, with DJ Ninj. I think it came out on Tzadik in 97. Haven't played it in a while, but I remember it having an improv/free-jazz thrust to it. Dave Segal Managing Editor/Alternative Press Reviews/BPM/Reissue Redux/Origins Of Cool Secret Ions on WCSB Thursdays 9-11PM EST www.wcsb.org

why don't DJs make their own fricken music instead of taking the credit for someone else's. "man, that dj sure can spin!" what? he can put a needle on a record and make it go in circles. most of the time the dude is pickin his nose or smokin a blunt. and if i have to hear anymore scratchmological waxploitation from those damn Invisible Scratch Pickles i'll shoot everyone in my school. (who says industrial music is the driving force behind this trend?) much respect to greg, andrew and others of your breed that discjockey to promote the genre and the artists rather than satisfying an ego. tomas np: Joan of Arc - Live in Chicago, 1999 Glenn Bach wrote:

quoted 12 lines DJs don't do shit.

> > > DJs don't do shit. > > If there is no wink accompanying that statement, then I have to speak up. Have you > seen a good ambient (or IDM) DJ lately? Two or three turntables, a couple of CD > players, a tape deck perhaps, building and layering, sampling and staging, EQing and > effecting. Taking songs, tracks, snippets, sounds and transforming them to such a > point that even other DJs or afficianados can no longer recognize the original > sources. Building crescendo, easing into decrescendo, dropping beats, playing shit > backwards, shifting tempos and time signatures and tones. Seeing the larger picture > of a soundscape lasting several hours, segues to the next DJ, 2x4 DJ combos, > turntable improv with guitarists and other musicians, etc.

quoted 2 lines why don't DJs make their own fricken music instead of taking the credit

>why don't DJs make their own fricken music instead of taking the credit >for someone else's.

man, this is obvious lamer flame-bait. eric

At 05:30 PM 7/7/99 -0700, you wrote:

quoted 2 lines why don't DJs make their own fricken music instead of taking the credit

>>why don't DJs make their own fricken music instead of taking the credit >>for someone else's.

Geez, that's fucking retarded.

quoted 3 lines man, this is obvious lamer flame-bait.

>man, this is obvious lamer flame-bait. > >eric

Yep, and I took it. :) Jeff

quoted 3 lines At 05:30 PM 7/7/99 -0700, you wrote:

> At 05:30 PM 7/7/99 -0700, you wrote: >why don't DJs make their own fricken music instead of taking the credit >for someone else's.

Hmmm - I bet there are LOADS of DJs on this list... :) taking credit you say... do they? I think it's actually an indirect thing - it's the audience and the promoters that make the DJ the star and not the actual artist who made the tracks. It also has to do with the environment - clubs and raves and parties. I personally am not a big fan of DJs nor do I understand the whole hype that surrounds them - the club scene and all that... but I do respect art and I believe that what a DJ CAN do is ART (keyword... CAN) - but, I'd say that many DJs don't really take it to that level. I don't go to clubs nor to raves - so I don't have that background - I'm a musician and I go to see music and bands - although... in the last 6 months I've integrated 2 turntables into my rig (http://www.sonicwallpaper.com/images/live-setup.gif). I do believe that there are some DJs that would blow my mind with their skills and ability to create a rich soundscape - and yes I really want to see one! I'm working on my DJ skills at this time - but then again I'm using weird records that have nothing to do with dance music and most of them are for background noise and spoken word stuff. As electronic music proliferates into the world - more people will begin performing out and we should start seeing electronic performances in the DJ environment. I know this is happening some places - but it isn't as prevalent as a plain ole DJ. The DJ as an artist is something that just isn't true for all of them - synching beats is a talent - but I wouldn't go as far as some people do in terms of giving credit. I just saw IQU (was ICU - pronounced eye-coo) - 3 people: 1 keyboard player, 1 stand-up bassist and a DJ. The DJ was the SHIT! He was placing scratches in excellent places, he was working an MC303 (beats and blips) and working a sampler (Yamaha SU700) - AND he played guitar really well - now HE WAS an impressive DJ! And at the end of the day... just let the music play - who cares where it's from! -- Hasta, Gideon ............................................ Sonic Wallpaper http://www.sonicwallpaper.com http://www.mp3.com/sonicwallpaper Tragic Furniture http://www.mp3.com/tragicfurniture CatalystMedia Corporation http://www.CatalystMedia.com ............................................

Songs/ Tracks: I just watched Down By Law for the first time yesterday, and was surprised to note that although the music was by John Lurie, the songs were by Tom Waits.... This aside, the "not a song" category is usually arbitrarily designated to any music/track that the listener ends up finding formally unsatisfying-- it's probably easier if you acquiesce to calling a song anything musical that somebody wants to put a name to and could possibly repeat (this is important, as far as I'm concerned). WORD on Clifford/Jazz/Electronica Clifford is not fusion jazz only to the extent that John Zorn is not Jazz; that is, it isn't stuck in the same tired routines, but does reference them consistently and does find most of its roots there. As long as you don't take the designation derogitorily, it's pretty accurate. If you meant weather report, yr being dishonest 'cos you don't like Gilberto. Why's everybody have the most problem with the next man's cheese (which Gilberto is only to a certain degree anyway). Curse Clifford and venerate DMX, which to my ears is the most annoying backwater horseshit I've ever heard. All it consists of is a bunch of lame in-jokes back-referenced in some pubescently clever fashion. Say what you will about Clifford Gilberto (like for instance the slightly unfair but partially accurate characterization as a loungy tj lite), but he never descends into the merely "clever". And why do the jazz dabblers in electronica always sound like such clueless old crones (Derek Bailey included, Ponga included)? M. If there's one thing I can't stand, it's up.

Tomas Jirku wrote:

quoted 9 lines why don't DJs make their own fricken music instead of taking the credit

> why don't DJs make their own fricken music instead of taking the credit > for someone else's. "man, that dj sure can spin!" what? he can put a > needle on a record and make it go in circles. most of the time the dude > is pickin his nose or smokin a blunt. and if i have to hear anymore > scratchmological waxploitation from those damn Invisible Scratch Pickles > i'll shoot everyone in my school. (who says industrial music is the > driving force behind this trend?) > much respect to greg, andrew and others of your breed that discjockey to > promote the genre and the artists rather than satisfying an ego.

Narrowing it down to the community of DJs and musicians with which I am familiar (I haven't spun a rave or club since the early 90s), I think it has little to do with ego (the rock star thing doesn't really apply here) and everything to do with the music. I don't think anyone really thinks that the DJ is taking credit for the wax being spun. But it is about selection: what to choose for an hour-long set among the seemingly infinite variety of music out there, what the DJ wants to share to that particular audience on that particular occasion (the same with radio DJs in many ways). Nothing but respect to the musicians who bust their asses making the music, and nothing but respect to the music itself. Otherwise, we wouldn't bother spending hundreds or thousands a month on that music and those artists (I can think of much cheaper ways of getting my ego stroked). Often some of us take it to the next level by layering and stacking and creating new hybrids, cross-genres, idiosyncratic interpretations, but no one is claiming ownership of the parts. But these concerted efforts, most often in a non-party context, do approach the level of pure collage or soundscapes, so some DJs and their output can be discussed in terms beyond the basic mechanisms of record playing or beat matching. A percentage of the audience certainly appreciates it--those who seek it out, those who pass through and are affected, those whose preconceptions of DJs are challenged by someone spinning something other than dance music. A lot of times I feel more like a coordinator than a DJ, a coordinator of sounds. I'm only exploring other possibilities for myself and others who share my sensibilities, and I certainly have no interest in dissing others who don't. Sure, there are DJs who dick around and cop attitude, but I think the majority are serious and hard-working, focusing on the music they love, the seamless blend of matched beats, or on sampling and scratching . For many DJs I think technique is just that, a means to an end. ISP and other crews who practice every day (and have for years) have pushed technique to the edge, but ask them and they will say it's still about the music. New music is being created, performed, and enjoyed all around us, and with that impressive level of creative experimentation it only follows that the performance, delivery, and experience of all this new music will change as well. Witness the recent discussion on this list, for example, about the merging (or lack of) free jazz and electronic music, about the expanded palette of instrumentation available to the musician Why can't the DJ participate in that process as well? DJs have been around for a long time, and I am by no means in any position to say that DJs need to be defended in the first place. But I'm witnessing firsthand and participating in the creation of some damn cool stuff, and I'm grateful to be a part of such a dynamic and lively process. G.

quoted 1 line it is about selection: what to choose for an hour-long set among the

>it is about selection: what to choose for an hour-long set among the

seemingly

quoted 2 lines infinite variety of music out there, what the DJ wants to share to that

>infinite variety of music out there, what the DJ wants to share to that >particular audience on that particular occasion (the same with radio DJs

in many

quoted 1 line ways).

>ways).

Except radio playlists are determined by computer. I read an article (ooh, great ersource citation) that every corporate station in the US does this, and breaks from this are the rare exception. Special shows and all. I really haven't looked at the possibilities of college radio, though. Whenever i've checked them out, it's always the flavor of the month alt-rock. _________________________________ Adam Roesch / roesch@augsburg.edu University of Idaho / Moscow / ID / USA Visit my Fila Brazillia/Pork Recordings fan site: http://dogbert.augsburg.edu/~roesch/pork/ "Because success needs killing" TRICKY

"Dave Segal" <segal@altpress.com> said:

quoted 4 lines Another jazzy d&b album nobody's mentioned: Derek Bailey's Guitar,

> Another jazzy d&b album nobody's mentioned: Derek Bailey's Guitar, > Drum & Bass, with DJ Ninj. I think it came out on Tzadik in 97. > Haven't played it in a while, but I remember it having an improv/ > free-jazz thrust to it.

"Guitar, Drum & Bass" was released on Avant, so it might be more expensive/difficult to find than if it were on Tzadik. Derek is as good as always, but Ninj sucks big time, so the result is very disappointing in the end. The CD to track down is "Play Backs", recenlty out on the Bingo label, where Derek plays along beats/tracks prepared by Sasha Frere Jones, John Herndon, Bundy K. Brown, Tied and Tickeld trio, etc. Excellent stuff this time. Another great record to check out is "And" by Derek Bailey, Pat Thomas and Steve Noble, on the French Rectangle label. We're getting further away from IDM here but there is a DJ playing on this record :) You can try to get more info from the Rectangle website at http://rectangle.org. Julien np - Dragibus "Papriko"

On Thu, 8 Jul 1999, Julien Quint wrote:

quoted 7 lines "Guitar, Drum & Bass" was released on Avant, so it might be more

> "Guitar, Drum & Bass" was released on Avant, so it might be more > expensive/difficult to find than if it were on Tzadik. Derek is as > good as always, but Ninj sucks big time, so the result is very > disappointing in the end. The CD to track down is "Play Backs", > recenlty out on the Bingo label, where Derek plays along beats/tracks > prepared by Sasha Frere Jones, John Herndon, Bundy K. Brown, Tied and > Tickeld trio, etc. Excellent stuff this time.

I've heard this opinion voiced several times (about G, D&B) and I always felt that its owner was missing part of the point. After all, the album's inspiration came from Bailey playing along with the pirate jungle stations in London; as such, I never thought it to meant as a collaborative project. The charm of the album (for me) has always been how Bailey manages to squeeze himself into the predictable, quotidian beats and pop back out, making it into something interesting and unlike his other 100+ prior records (session work aside). That said, Playbacks is also worthy of listening time (besides its glaring technical flaws as detailed by Henry Kaiser, har har- kudos to Sasha for brokering such a meeting of the minds). I just think it's funny that Bailey's name carries so much baggage that people automatically assume that Ninj has to fit into some sort of auteur/voice model for the record to be successful. -rob

quoted 5 lines Another jazzy d&b album nobody's mentioned:

> Another jazzy d&b album nobody's mentioned: > Derek Bailey's Guitar, Drum & Bass, with DJ Ninj. > I think it came out on Tzadik in 97. > Haven't played it in a while, but I remember it > having an improv/free-jazz thrust to it.

yeah, i have this one. it's on avant, a japanese label which is associated with the hip's road project (whose tzadik is a part of). derek bailey's playing of course is 100% free (anything less from him would be surprising), but the drum n bass beat, although quite good in its minimalism, is still just that, drum n bass. i suppose that's for giving the illusion of 'keeping it together' (even though bailey's playing stands very well on its own or in the company of similarly freeform musicians). it's a good album, but i think 2 years later, something more free has to come out. free drum n bass. i guess drill n bass was a good step in the direction; it's just that nobody really saw the point of it. or god knows. i have yet to understand what made everybody so quick to abandon drill n bass. it had potential -- it's just that nobody was using it. bla bla bla bla bla -- david turgeon at http://www.notype.com