IDM Mailing Archive

1994-03-10 18:36u91clw@ecs.oxford.ac.ukRIGHT...... Now I'm going to have a little MOAN, so all you who don't want to hear this th

From:: <u91clw@ecs.oxford.ac.uk>
To:: <idm@techno.Stanford.EDU>
Date:: Thu, 10 Mar 94 18:36:52 GMT
Subject:: Ambient Dub?

RIGHT...... Now I'm going to have a little MOAN, so all you who don't want to hear this then hit the <DEL>. I wasn't going to bring this up, because I didn't want a personal petty argument to rage about something as menial as labels. However, enough people have written in to make it clear that more than half of you are irritated (to say the least) about the use of the word Ambient. If you'll just let me get this out of my system.... AMBIENT...AMBIENT... AMBIENT...AMBIENT...AMBIENT...AMBIENT... AMBIENT...AMBIENT...AMBIENT...AMBIENT... AMBIENT...AMBIENT...AMBIENT...AMBIENT... AMBIENT...AMBIENT...AMBIENT...AMBIENT... AMBIENT...AMBIENT...AMBIENT...AMBIENT... AMBIENT...AMBIENT...AMBIENT...AMBIENT... AMBIENT...AMBIENT There, now we could even manage a rational and balanced discussion (I hope). There now follows a couple of examples, that are in no way personal complaints. I respect there right to opinion, and I know that they speak for most of you. ------- C J Silverio <ceej@netcom.com> wrote:

quoted 5 lines I'd have to agree. Most of the music called "ambient house" is

>I'd have to agree. Most of the music called "ambient house" is >more like house with ambient influences. This isn't to say some >of it isn't great, because I love both of those Caroline Records >"Excursions in Ambience" comps. (The first one a bit more than >the second, despite all the Orb remixes on the 2nd.)

The honourable Jon Drukman <jdrukman%dlsun87@oracle.com> wrote:

quoted 4 lines Quite how they came to call this sort of music "ambient dub" baffles

>Quite how they came to call this sort of music "ambient dub" baffles >me. It's neither ambient nor particularly dubby. I'm not sure I have >a better term for it, but maybe I could come up with something if they >asked.

------- In Reply "When we picked the title Ambient Dub it was to use "Dub" in it's modern sense as indicating stretched out, spacy, dreamy mixes, although we were well aware of the Jamaican Music that also bore the name "Dub"..." - Beyond InfoPak2,3 ------- Opinion I) Ofcourse Ambient House means House with Ambient influences. I can't see how it ever meant anything else. Surely house, and dance as a whole, can do nothing to advance "Ambiance" proper. The fact is that whilst Ambiance has been around since the neanderthal (as natural music), dance is still mutating and Ambience is just an influence it picked up. I could remember the quote from LX Patterson (Issue 2: OUTLOOK) who said EXACTLY that. II)The same is true of the mutation of Dub. David Toop wrote a lengthy piece published in Beyond's InfoPak. Dub is an INFLUENCE, not just a music. III) Personally I consider the concept of Ambient to include ANY and ALL music and noise. Its a grand idea, backed up when FSOL delivered their "..new ambient station FSOL" last year. The music was so varied. It was like a brilliantly produced John Peel show (he's ambient). IV) excerpt Chambers Dictionary: "ambient:-n. that which encompasses, the air or sky -n.ambience environment: surrounding influence: atmosphere: (also ambiance,) use or disposition of such accessories in art." So don't hit me with technicalities :) The last line especially proves a grander concept of ambiance. V) Is this an American thing? I can't help noticing that most (all?) of the people who wrote to me, wrote from America. VI) What about ambient techno, and other dance hybrids with ambient influences? Do these offend too? ------- Conclusion I) Ambience is an influence II) Ambiance is a concept ------- So all you wishing to further the discussion don't make it personal. I'm just trying to weed out some prejudices. Growl :) Charles Wildig <u91clw@ecs.ox.ac.uk> A mere improbability riding on a one-way ticket through time

1994-03-10 21:18Jon Drukman>I wasn't going to bring this up, because I didn't want a personal petty >argument to rage

From:: Jon Drukman <jdrukman@us.oracle.com>
To:: <idm@techno.Stanford.EDU>
Date:: Thu, 10 Mar 94 13:18:15 PST
Subject:: Re: Ambient Dub?
Reply to:: Ambient Dub?

quoted 5 lines I wasn't going to bring this up, because I didn't want a personal petty

>I wasn't going to bring this up, because I didn't want a personal petty >argument to rage about something as menial as labels. However, enough people >have written in to make it clear that more than half of you are irritated >(to say the least) about the use of the word Ambient. If you'll just let me >get this out of my system....

whoa, calm down there Tex! it's just that Ambient as a label is becoming the Fashionable Thing of the moment and it's becoming increasingly useless as a result. same thing happened with Techno. i suppose part of this is just due to the corruption of language. words never mean the same thing for long enough...

quoted 4 lines "When we picked the title Ambient Dub it was to use "Dub"

> "When we picked the title Ambient Dub it was to use "Dub" > in it's modern sense as indicating stretched out, spacy, > dreamy mixes, although we were well aware of the Jamaican Music that > also bore the name "Dub"..." - Beyond InfoPak2,3

right, well, i respect and admire Beyond a *lot* but i wish they had picked a different term for their excellent series of albums. preferably one that didn't use any of the following set of words: ambient, trance, techno, house, dub, reggae, jazz, acid. true, there are bits and pieces of *all* those styles in their music, but i really think of Beyond as having a certain characteristic sound that is billions of light years away from, say, "Ambient 1: Music For Airports". or any of the zillion dub albums at the local monstromart.

quoted 6 lines I) Ofcourse Ambient House means House with Ambient influences. I can't

> I) Ofcourse Ambient House means House with Ambient influences. I can't >see how it ever meant anything else. Surely house, and dance as a whole, can >do nothing to advance "Ambiance" proper. The fact is that whilst Ambiance >has been around since the neanderthal (as natural music), dance is still >mutating and Ambience is just an influence it picked up. I could remember the >quote from LX Patterson (Issue 2: OUTLOOK) who said EXACTLY that.

right, well, it's also got disco influence in it but i don't hear too many people trumpeting that angle. similarly, seefeel (who i am listening to right now) remind me a lot of the old school minimalists but i don't hear too many comparisons to terry riley or lamonte young being drawn. mainly because most people would say "WHO!?" it just so happens that right now (march 1994), "ambient" is *the* buzzword. in 1992 it was "progressive." in 1993 it was "trance."

quoted 4 lines III) Personally I consider the concept of Ambient to include ANY and

> III) Personally I consider the concept of Ambient to include ANY and >ALL music and noise. Its a grand idea, backed up when FSOL delivered their >"..new ambient station FSOL" last year. The music was so varied. It was like >a brilliantly produced John Peel show (he's ambient).

see, this makes the term even less useful. we've already got words for "sound" and "music" and "noise" and their definitions are pretty rigid and well accepted. you're hurting the word "ambient" by corrupting it in such a fashion. it's already pretty badly damaged, anyway.

quoted 2 lines V) Is this an American thing? I can't help noticing that most (all?)

> V) Is this an American thing? I can't help noticing that most (all?) >of the people who wrote to me, wrote from America.

i'd hope anyone with a bit of interest in the english language would get upset about it. if i give you a record and say "this is techno" you probably wouldn't have a clue what it sounds like. ditto "this is ambient." to me, ambient means what Brian Eno (and even earlier, Erik Satie) meant it to mean: music that you can just as easily NOT listen to. "thursday afternoon" is an ambient record. if you can't see the difference between that and "slow dance music with real-world sound effects", then you don't deserve to use the word. i'm not angry, really. just interested in preserving our language. Jon Drukman jdrukman%dlsun87@oracle.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- This calls for a very special blend of psychology and extreme violence.

Ambient Dub?