IDM Mailing Archive

Our parties at void have been a whole lot of fun. Think drunken dancing, drink spilling, heel breakin' boob fondling type of fun :-) Why are they so much fun? Because we have things like this: Power Currupt! Absolute Power Currupts Absolutely. Hong Kong Counterfeit - Live :: They're electro-booty-shakin'-popstars who go far beyond just looking cool. They know how to make good music and have been featured on such labels as Gigolo, Erkrankung Durch Musique, Ghostly and Throbdisk. They haven't played live in a while so this is a special treat. see: http://www.hongkongcounterfeit.com _ Deejays :: Coin Op We're having Coin Op back because who else knows about electro-booty shakin? :: She Ra + Cut Faster Oh that's right, we know about electro-booty shakin', what's up? _ Video :: Form/C-TRL Nix and Dev will be gracing the theatre sized videos screens as our resident video artists, the glitched out porn from a few weeks ago was sublime. - Where: VOID : SOHO 16 Mercer St New York, NY Phone: (212) 941-6492 10PM - 4AM How much?: $5 if you rsvp (each rsvp is only good for you plus one) Send RSVP requests to rsvp@unevenfoundation.com. $10 if you don't so please do. - Next Week: We've got an excellent lineup, old school hip hop dj and death comet crew collaborator DJ High Priest along with Miami's Secret Frequency Crew who are celebrating the release of their new 12" Miami Eyes on MTA. - :: Support Please forward this email to your fellow party goers. __ In other news: From Mr Radeus. Recordcamp's loosest cannons and nimblest wits play a game of chicken with what we hope is an appreciative audience and the powers that be. Starting this Thursday from 10 PM-12 AM, and every week til we get shut down or bored, Radeus, D-Money and the ever elusive Manimal aka Greg Hurcomb bring the sum of our wills (and records) to bear on the airwaves of EVR 88.1 FM. If you're in the east village, try tuning us in. If not, don't fret, the website with web-streaming should be up shortly. - Onwards and...erm...downwards. I'll be dropping some beats alongside good friends and great dj's Spinoza, Movement and kleverVice at the Subtonic lounge this Friday night, located, cleverly enough, below Tonic. Laptop antics, beautiful and intricate programming and high fives will be provided by the inimitable Sky Tucker. If you haven't heard his debut ep on Recordcamp, good luck finding it cause it's sold out my friends. subTonic | 107 Norfolk Street | (212) 358-7501 | 9PM-3AM | FREE, 21+ http://www.klever.org/thebunkernyc/ :: Sign off http://www.recordcamp.com --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

Hi guys.. (apologies to Randy.. for sending to him rather than the list first off :) I recently ordered from Boomkat, accidently ignoring that one was an LP not a CD... anyways I've been wondering about getting a turntable for a long time.. I'm quite into audio coding etc.. and have been discussing this at hydrogenaudio.. I know that vinyl is technically inferior to CD.. also the technology to reproduce vinyl requires expensive equipment to get good sound.. but even the best vinyl player will only play as well as whats stored on the record... and this is just below what is capable on CD.. obviously CDs are mostly mastered poorly (outside of electronica i hope, in the mainstream) so vinyl can sound better simply as its mastered better.. There's a great article on vinyl and mastering here http://www.recordtech.com/prodsounds.htm Good stuff.. Anyways is it worth it.. are there enough releases in electronica that are vinyl only that will drive me to purchase them to warrant having a turntable.. thats the question.. a few faves i'll buy on CD and vinyl to really compare for myself but most of the time i'll always adopt for CD... I may get into mixing or try to at a later date but for now i can't, and dont have the space.. as such i'll get a hifi player.. Your input is appreciated.. going to have a look perhaps at the weekend.. Cheers James --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.512 / Virus Database: 309 - Release Date: 19/08/2003 --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

At 23:59 28/08/2003 +0100, James R Bamford wrote:

quoted 5 lines Hi guys.. (apologies to Randy.. for sending to him rather than the list

>Hi guys.. (apologies to Randy.. for sending to him rather than the list >first off :) > >I recently ordered from Boomkat, accidently ignoring that one was an LP not >a CD...

hi James - maybe the best thing that ever happened to you! splurge on a quality turntable/arm/cartridge and live happily ever after...it's an investment you'll never regret! and yes there's an astonishing amount of VINYL-only stuff released every week here's a few turntable-specific sites to get you spinning...just the tip of the analogue-iceberg... http://www.amusicdirect.com/ http://www.brinkmann-audio.com/ http://www.extremephono.com/ http://www.musichallaudio.com/ http://www.musicalsurroundings.com/ http://www.needledoctor.com/ http://www.oracle-audio.com/ http://www.rega.co.uk/ http://www.sme.ltd.uk/html/intropage.html http://www.sumikoaudio.net/ http://www.transrotor.de/ http://www.vpiindustries.com/ http://www.vyger.com/ http://www.witchdoctoraudio.com/ VINYL RULES AND ALWAYS WILL... david / pbe / new mexico p.s. analogue tip...I LOVE MY ZERODUST...https://www.amusicdirect.com/products/detail.asp?sku=AZEROD --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

----- Original Message ----- From: "James R Bamford" <jim@jimtreats.com>

quoted 3 lines are there enough releases in electronica that are

> are there enough releases in electronica that are > vinyl only that will drive me to purchase them to warrant having a > turntable.. thats the question..

yes. it may likely not be that way forever, but the period for which this will continue to be true will be much longer than you'll need in order to feel like you got your money's worth out of the turntable purchase. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

quoted 20 lines -----Original Message-----

> -----Original Message----- > From: Garrett McGrath [mailto:g@7mzdt.com] > Sent: 29 August 2003 00:08 > To: James R Bamford; IDM List > Subject: Re: [idm] Should I buy a Turntable for IDM? > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "James R Bamford" <jim@jimtreats.com> > > > are there enough releases in electronica that are > > vinyl only that will drive me to purchase them to warrant having a > > turntable.. thats the question.. > > yes. > > it may likely not be that way forever, but the period for which this will > continue to be true will be much longer than you'll need in order to feel > like you got your money's worth out of the turntable purchase. >

Thanks.. I'm very much leaning towards it... can anyone think of a label or some recent releases that are vinyl only.. artists etc.. just to give me an idea if there are any i can spot, or actively seek out once i do get one.. Torn between a cheap one, Project Debut ~£150 with built in phono preamp (my amp dont have it :( ), or the project RM4 or something.. £350 + £50 phono (+ extra pair of interconnects for turntable to preamp, preamp to main amp) ... My discovery of anti-audiophile/hifi makes me know that even mains cable has been shown to be unidentifiable from the most expensive of interconnects but still i dont know if i can go this far.. my other cable interconnects for serious hifi are £100 each, one is at £250.. why oh why :) Any opinions on these project turntables would be appreciated, and like i said further thoughts on the joys of vinyl, and examples of vinyl only, or great quality vinyl electronica would be appreciated... isnt electronica usually mastered fairly well compared to mainstream pop, so the biggest advantage of vinyl when its available on both formats will be less evident than on more mainstream music.. Cheers

quoted 11 lines ---------------------------------------------------------------------

> > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org > For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org > > --- > Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > Version: 6.0.512 / Virus Database: 309 - Release Date: 19/08/2003 >

--- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.512 / Virus Database: 309 - Release Date: 19/08/2003 --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

On Fri, 29 Aug 2003 00:54:46 +0100 James R Bamford <jim@jimtreats.com> wrote:

quoted 36 lines -----Original Message-----

> > -----Original Message----- > > From: Garrett McGrath [mailto:g@7mzdt.com] > > Sent: 29 August 2003 00:08 > > To: James R Bamford; IDM List > > Subject: Re: [idm] Should I buy a Turntable for IDM? > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "James R Bamford" <jim@jimtreats.com> > > > > > are there enough releases in electronica that are > > > vinyl only that will drive me to purchase them to warrant having a > > > turntable.. thats the question.. > > > > yes. > > > > it may likely not be that way forever, but the period for which this will > > continue to be true will be much longer than you'll need in order to feel > > like you got your money's worth out of the turntable purchase. > > > > Thanks.. I'm very much leaning towards it... can anyone think of a label or > some recent releases that are vinyl only.. artists etc.. just to give me an > idea if there are any i can spot, or actively seek out once i do get one.. > > Torn between a cheap one, Project Debut ~#150 with built in phono preamp (my > amp dont have it :( ), or the project RM4 or something.. #350 + #50 phono (+ > extra pair of interconnects for turntable to preamp, preamp to main amp) ... > My discovery of anti-audiophile/hifi makes me know that even mains cable has > been shown to be unidentifiable from the most expensive of interconnects but > still i dont know if i can go this far.. my other cable interconnects for > serious hifi are #100 each, one is at #250.. why oh why :) > > Any opinions on these project turntables would be appreciated, and like i > said further thoughts on the joys of vinyl, and examples of vinyl only, or > great quality vinyl electronica would be appreciated...

Don't know anything about Project turntables, I'm afraid. I have a Rega Planar 3, which I picked up 2nd hand around 15 years ago for around 125 quid (not sure if they're still around) and have been very happy with it; only pain in the arse is having to lift off the plinth (or the artist formerly known as plinth?) and adjust the drive belt every time you want to change speed from 33 to 45 and vice versa. Delicatessen is one label that's released vinyl only (10") so far and they've been quality too (esp. Funckarma _Bourbon Sounds_, L'usine _Sustain_). Another plus about having vinyl is that the aesthetic of the package - more fun to collect. Having said that, I haven't been buying any vinyl - can't be arsed keep getting up to turn a record over every 20 mins ;-) alan ---------------------- Alan Lockett, (Language Co-ordinator, English), Language Centre, University of Bristol, 30-32 Tyndall's Park Road, Bristol BS8 1PY, UK Alan.R.Lockett@bristol.ac.uk tel: +44 117 9741311 fax: +44 117 9741377 --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

Here's my kind of range of players going to look at http://www.superfi.co.uk/index.cfm/page/category.cfm/Category/104 Their homepage (Project) is here http://www.project-audio.net/ Jim --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

If you're not going to be DJ'ing and just listening, used turntables can be a great value. Any 70s or 80s vintage direct drive turntable should work just fine. I got a Technics SL-Q200 from my brother-in-law -- along with all of his 70s and 80s R&B records -- put a new stylus on the old Stanton cartridge and it sounds fantastic. If you can't find a good used turtable, Stanton makes a Direct Drive table STR830B you can get for $149.99 WITH a cartridge. It aint a 1200, but they work fine. You could probably even beat match on 'em. Audiophile stuff probably sounds great, but ... they're fiddly. They're really for people who want to fuss with gear. On Fri, 29 Aug 2003, James R Bamford wrote:

quoted 10 lines Here's my kind of range of players going to look at

> Here's my kind of range of players going to look at > > http://www.superfi.co.uk/index.cfm/page/category.cfm/Category/104 > > Their homepage (Project) is here > > http://www.project-audio.net/ > > Jim >

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quoted 1 line I know that vinyl is technically inferior to CD..

> I know that vinyl is technically inferior to CD..

actually CD is technically inferior to vinyl. check around the net to see some of the tech specs. this is not a CD bashing, just a notice that sound quality is not the only reason people purchase a certain format. things like convenience, ease of use, what kind of stereo you have, go into it as well.....CD's and vinyl are like apples and oranges in my opinion. just my 2 cents C --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

At 12:37 AM 8/29/2003 -0500, you wrote:

quoted 4 lines I know that vinyl is technically inferior to CD..

> > I know that vinyl is technically inferior to CD.. > >actually CD is technically inferior to vinyl. check around the net to see some >of the tech specs.

I prefer to say that CD is "differently inferior" Vinyl may be more accurate compared to actual waveform representation for all present frequencies, but the medium sucks for truly accurate playback. Not to mention things you can't physically do to the vinyl (bassforms making the needle jump off the record is one example) derek -- eggytoast.com - eggtastic.com ----- it's in your grocer's freezer --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

quoted 7 lines At 12:37 AM 8/29/2003 -0500, you wrote:

> At 12:37 AM 8/29/2003 -0500, you wrote: > > > I know that vinyl is technically inferior to CD.. > > > >actually CD is technically inferior to vinyl. check around the net to see some > >of the tech specs. > > I prefer to say that CD is "differently inferior"

Not this again :-) Cut it out! This is a non-duscussion and it is very old. Let me sum it up once again so everybody can stop cluttering mailboxes: What is the purpose of making musical recordings? Your answer to this question is pivotal in this discussion. It generally boils down to the following two choices: "So that people can listen back to accurate reproductions of the recorded music at will" or "So that people can listen back to cool music at will". I will get back to this issue later. Now, the nasties of the CD: - Digital sampling at CD quality limits the frequency range of the recorded signal to about 22050 Hz. This is well greater than the range of human hearing, but it is nonetheless a limitation. - Digital sampling introduces a 'quantisation error', which means that the measured signal cannot be recorded exactly. The recording equipment has to round off the measured values to the nearest predefined signal point, thus producing a 'stairstep' effect, like on your monitor when you draw a diagonal line (but less). - Digital playback introduces 'jitter': small (picosecond range) variations in playback speed, due to the imperfections of electronic clock signal generators. - Digital audio is limited in dynamic range because of the bitrate. At 16 bits, CD can offer at most 96 db of dynamic range. An orchestra needs about 140db. Dance music fits well within the range. The nasties of vinyl: - Crosstalk. The needle of the turntable plays both the left channel- and right channel data simultaneously. When a bump occurs on the left side of the groove, the needle is pushed right and an electronic current results in one of the stereo channels. When a bump occurs on the right side, the reverse happens. Obviously, it is a pipe dream to think that bumps on the left side will not be audible in the right channel. The crosstalk between the two channels is usually as much as 40db, which is an incredible lot. - Phase problems. From the above, you might wonder what happens if two bumps occur on both sides of the groove at the same time. Answer: the needle will pop out of the record and possibly wreck your turntable. Because of this it is asolutely impossible to press signals with heavy phase differences onto vinyl. Vinyl plants _always_ heavily preprocess the audio before they cut it to remove these differences. - Turntable motors are even more horrible at timing than digital clocks. - Scratches, dust, the sun, wear, etc., etc. Now comes the question: which one is 'best'? Well, that depends on your answer to the earlier question. If you think a recording should be accurate in a mathematical sense (*) the disturbances caused by the CD are absolutely dwarfed by the problems of vinyl. The signal reproduced by the CD is a lot closer to the original mathematically as is the vinyl recording. Now, things get hairy.. - The type of heavy preprocessing done on vinyl records is often considered to sound 'fat'. But.. people have been doing it to CD's as well for the last decade, because everybody seems to like it. - While crosstalk is absolutely a bitch on vinyl, it _sounds_ less disturbing to the ear as digital quantisation noise. But.. digital quantisation noise has been greatly reduced by smoothing output filters and shaped dithering since the earliest cd players. Besides, many CD players and digital sound cards do oversampling ( a form of interpolation) on the outputs, taking the quantisation noise well out of the audible frequency range. - In light of all the processing and post-processing that is done in studios, can you still speak of an 'accurate' recording? - Your stereo and living room suck in comparison to the monitoring rooms of studios. It will not ever sound like it did in the studio. - Isn't the 'best' really only what you believe is the best? Don't get all tribal over it. The moral to this story is: don't waste your time on a discussion that has no clear winners. Cheers, Denis (*): you can mathematically analyze the difference between two audio signals, because an audio signal is in fact a point in a mathematical space (the Hilbert space). Each conceivable recording is a point (vector) in that space and you can measure or calculate the distance between these points, much as you'd calculate the distance between two points on a map or in a three dimensional space. If you'd do this for CD and vinyl recordings of audio signals, vinyl would be orders of magnitude further away from the original than the CD, because of the forementioned crosstalk (the crosstalk is much louder than the CD's quantisation noise). Another way to look at this is through information theory: it can be proven that a signal at 44100 Hz (CD quality) can 100% accurately reproduce any signals that are band-limited to 22010 Hz, which completely covers the range of human hearing (which is 20000 Hz). The problem of quantisation noise arises because this result from information theory assumes 'perfect' samples, whereas sampling hardware has to round off. So, the only difference between a CD and 100% accurate reproduction is the samll amount of roundoff at each sample. With increasing bitrates, the amplitude of this signal becomes nanoscopic, whilst 40db crosstalk is definitely macroscopic. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org