IDM Mailing Archive

quoted 3 lines Musicians: performers whose expertise is in manipulating raw musical

>Musicians: performers whose expertise is in manipulating raw musical >tones in real-time and who combine them to form original music by >playing an instrument.

Hey, works for me, given that that includes DJs, spoon-players, saw-strokers, Stockhausen and Francisco Lopez. But I'm guessing that you didn't intend to include those sorts in your definition, so you might want to rework it to fit your narrower terms. A few subdefinitions you'll need to clarify: "manipulate," "raw musical tones" (each of those could be unpacked), "real-time," "original," and "instrument." Heck, you should probably spell out "expertise" and "performer" while you're at it. But I think your prepositions are sound, and unlike Clinton, we all know what the definition of "is" is. Take heart, you've almost got it! Philip --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

I also don't necessarily think a DJ is a "musician," but I think your definition:

quoted 6 lines I am talking about those people who practiced scales, arpeggios, keys,

> I am talking about those people who practiced scales, arpeggios, keys, > modes, etc... and have an understanding of music theory > etc... and then > perform live in real time on an instrument utilizing that > knowledge and > practice to impress a croud.

Is simply too narrow. That's fine for one particular strain - the "classically-trained musician," perhaps, or the "formally schooled musician," but there are all kinds and stripes out there. Some are idiot savants. Some are unabahsed noisemakers. Some play mixing desks. John Cage did all of what you said, but he also played toys and tapes and ideas. Are the latter activities therefore not "musicianly," even if he was? --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

i think the biggest problem with this argument about DJs not being musicians comes down to this: there are Radio DJs who ramble all day and then play CDs like their programming director tells them to and then there are accomplished DJs who are able to take the medium to a new level. The DJs who have practiced their "techniques" are able to take a record of a guy taking a dump on a four track and scratch it up or mess it up or manipulate it to sound like something that they, yes the DJ, has created.... To say that DJ's are not musicians....just is ignorance. And to say that DJs that produce are few is a pile of nonsense.... Most DJs that I know do produce and do release their own tracks. Finally We as humans and intellectuals have reduced ourselves to the very meanings of words...instead of being insightful enough to realize that words just can't encapsulate the magnitude of what performance, musicianship, art and music truly mean. Matt Loathing --- Josh Bown <josh@undertone.com> wrote:

quoted 76 lines ok, well by "raw musical tones" I meant to exclude

> ok, well by "raw musical tones" I meant to exclude > DJs since they work > with pre-composed phrases, parts etc... and just > layer and rearrange > them rather than working with raw tones as their > building blocks.... > > Not that DJs aren't both artists and performers, > they just aren't by > default musicians... unless they also happen to play > an instrument.... > > For all of you out there who want to call DJs > musicians, please come up > with a word that applies only to the types of > musicians I am trying to > describe. > > I am talking about those people who practiced > scales, arpeggios, keys, > modes, etc... and have an understanding of music > theory etc... and then > perform live in real time on an instrument utilizing > that knowledge and > practice to impress a croud. To me a musician must > have all of that and > most DJs don't. > > DJs are DISK JOCKEYS... they are like the guy on the > radio choosing > selections to fit the mood and playing other > people's stuff.... How can > that be confused with being a musician???? Radio > DJs aren't musicians! > they're commentators and record collectors... or > more like interior > designers except they set a mood in sound... A few > of them (probably the > best ones) also compose and play instruments and > probably spin their own > compositions and such, but these are the few and the > proud and the > brave, and their musicianship comes from these other > activities, not > from spinning..... > > Philip Sherburne wrote: > > > > >Musicians: performers whose expertise is in > manipulating raw musical > > >tones in real-time and who combine them to form > original music by > > >playing an instrument. > > > > Hey, works for me, given that that includes DJs, > spoon-players, > > saw-strokers, Stockhausen and Francisco Lopez. > But I'm guessing that you > > didn't intend to include those sorts in your > definition, so you might want > > to rework it to fit your narrower terms. A few > subdefinitions you'll need > > to clarify: "manipulate," "raw musical tones" > (each of those could be > > unpacked), "real-time," "original," and > "instrument." Heck, you should > > probably spell out "expertise" and "performer" > while you're at it. But I > > think your prepositions are sound, and unlike > Clinton, we all know what the > > definition of "is" is. Take heart, you've almost > got it! > > > > Philip > >

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I would say John Cage had a background as a musician but that when he was going all wacky he was really being a "sonic experimentalist" or something.... He was inspired by his own musicianship perhaps... or maybe I am just a crotchety stubborn conservative traditionalist who needs to wake up, smell the revolution and have a cup of purple kool-aid. Philip Sherburne wrote:

quoted 18 lines I also don't necessarily think a DJ is a "musician," but I think your

> > I also don't necessarily think a DJ is a "musician," but I think your > definition: > > I am talking about those people who practiced scales, arpeggios, keys, > > modes, etc... and have an understanding of music theory > > etc... and then > > perform live in real time on an instrument utilizing that > > knowledge and > > practice to impress a croud. > > Is simply too narrow. That's fine for one particular strain - the > "classically-trained musician," perhaps, or the "formally schooled > musician," but there are all kinds and stripes out there. Some are idiot > savants. Some are unabahsed noisemakers. Some play mixing desks. John > Cage did all of what you said, but he also played toys and tapes and ideas. > Are the latter activities therefore not "musicianly," even if he was? > >

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quoted 5 lines I am talking about those people who practiced scales, arpeggios, keys,

> I am talking about those people who practiced scales, arpeggios, keys, > modes, etc... and have an understanding of music theory etc... and then > perform live in real time on an instrument utilizing that knowledge and > practice to impress a croud. To me a musician must have all of that and > most DJs don't.

oh, well so much for all the ideas surrounding atonality.

quoted 9 lines DJs are DISK JOCKEYS... they are like the guy on the radio choosing

> DJs are DISK JOCKEYS... they are like the guy on the radio choosing > selections to fit the mood and playing other people's stuff.... How can > that be confused with being a musician???? Radio DJs aren't musicians! > they're commentators and record collectors... or more like interior > designers except they set a mood in sound... A few of them (probably the > best ones) also compose and play instruments and probably spin their own > compositions and such, but these are the few and the proud and the > brave, and their musicianship comes from these other activities, not > from spinning.....

Right, like the Dj Qberts and the Kid Koalas. Heck, they're just like Amon Tobin (who actually plays a mean harmonica, but doesn't record himself). Nevermind that because their instruments are needles and black disks instead of well-established wood-and-brass concoctions. cheers, /derek ------- eggytoast.com ------- now with tonality --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

Music is a form of communication. There are all kinds of ways of being involved with the process of that communciation- including playing other people's records, and listening to other people's records. I have classical training, and my parents are classical musicians by profession- it is one of the greatest joys musically though- to listen to music, and I find DJ'ing to be really satisfying musically- it is such a great way to get into music, and you need skills to Dj well. A DJ is a new kind of orchestra conductor- tying in all of the sounds from the musicians. Nothing can really top the intensity of classical music, the instruments, the history, the skill. A Dj and a conductor are vastly different becuase the communication process with an orchestra is different than a single person beat matching. It's important for people to always make and listen to new music, to keep exploring, no matter how "simple" or "complex". We can never have too much music. -----Original Message----- From: EggyToast [mailto:youn0394@umn.edu] Sent: Tuesday, April 10, 2001 11:26 AM To: idm@hyperreal.org Subject: Re: [idm] Re: definitions

quoted 5 lines I am talking about those people who practiced scales, arpeggios, keys,

> I am talking about those people who practiced scales, arpeggios, keys, > modes, etc... and have an understanding of music theory etc... and then > perform live in real time on an instrument utilizing that knowledge and > practice to impress a croud. To me a musician must have all of that and > most DJs don't.

oh, well so much for all the ideas surrounding atonality.

quoted 9 lines DJs are DISK JOCKEYS... they are like the guy on the radio choosing

> DJs are DISK JOCKEYS... they are like the guy on the radio choosing > selections to fit the mood and playing other people's stuff.... How can > that be confused with being a musician???? Radio DJs aren't musicians! > they're commentators and record collectors... or more like interior > designers except they set a mood in sound... A few of them (probably the > best ones) also compose and play instruments and probably spin their own > compositions and such, but these are the few and the proud and the > brave, and their musicianship comes from these other activities, not > from spinning.....

Right, like the Dj Qberts and the Kid Koalas. Heck, they're just like Amon Tobin (who actually plays a mean harmonica, but doesn't record himself). Nevermind that because their instruments are needles and black disks instead of well-established wood-and-brass concoctions. cheers, /derek ------- eggytoast.com ------- now with tonality --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

I think anyone who works to make music is a musician, just like anyone who acts, on stage or off, is an actor. Certainly we should recognize different levels of expertise or experience or focus or quality or whatever, all the while keeping in mind what the intentions of the creator are (do they have an inflated sense of self-worth, or are they a humble prankster artist like "Wierd Al"?) I agree with the sentiments expressed recently on the list that there should be some recognition of the years of training and experience/expertise that some people have, but I think that goes without saying; I don't see that we need a new word for it when every other field I can think of has no separation, semantically, between the trained and the untrained. Well, the medical profession has degrees and memberships, etc., but that's different. As far as artistic fields like music, sculpture, theatre, painting, lighting designer - the true recognition of the quality of the artist seems to simply be the recogntion and measurement of one's peers, which can change over time.

quoted 17 lines -----Original Message-----

> -----Original Message----- > From: Josh Bown [mailto:josh@undertone.com] > Sent: Tuesday, April 10, 2001 2:25 PM > To: Philip Sherburne > Cc: 'idm@hyperreal.org' > Subject: [idm] Re: definitions > > > I would say John Cage had a background as a musician but that when he > was going all wacky he was really being a "sonic experimentalist" or > something.... He was inspired by his own musicianship perhaps... > > or maybe I am just a crotchety stubborn conservative > traditionalist who > needs to wake up, smell the revolution and have a cup of purple > kool-aid. >

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