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RE: [idm] Pop vs IDM

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2000-09-26 00:01Chris Fahey RE: [idm] Pop vs IDM
2000-09-26 15:27Paul Feuer RE: [idm] Pop vs IDM
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2000-09-26 00:01Chris FaheyI see pop music as music that is born out of the "pop tradition." The pop tradition, born
From:
Chris Fahey
To:
IDM (E-mail)
Date:
Mon, 25 Sep 2000 20:01:46 -0400
Subject:
RE: [idm] Pop vs IDM
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I see pop music as music that is born out of the "pop tradition." The pop tradition, born out of centuries of folk music, is a product of the late 20th century (and the advent of the selling of recorded music) and it consists of everything from swing to soul to rock&roll to disco and beyond. Since IDM is a child of many of these movements, it is pop music. IDM may not be popular, but it is a product of the popular music tradition. Pop music has traditionally been simply anything that is not "academic". And although lots of IDM traces at least some of its artistic lineage to classical/academic traditions, the majority of the IDM idiom is pure pop and can trace its roots pretty squarely back into disco, hip hop, r&b, prog rock, punk rock, etc. You could say, however, that we have reached a time when the word pop has almost lost it's meaning, much in the same way that "High" and "Low" art have lost their distinctions. The term "pop" goes back to a time when the academies would enforce a distinction between the intellectual musical activity within their walls and the fun stuff the peasants were playing on their flutes and drums. We all know today that this is a fallacy, that lots of academic music is influenced by folk music (and that non-academic musicians are capable of extraordinary creativity, invention, and genius). IDM is like comic books - it's an art form born from the lower classes and co-opted by a new classless coalition of people who don't give a damn about high or low. It is in large part free of caste stigma (although I'm sure 3/4 of the kids at Julliard would find most IDM pretty hard to bear). If you're going to use the word pop, then you must apply it to almost all IDM - but it's nothing to be ashamed of!!! If you're ashamed to be listening to pop music, then you're a snobby aristocratic twat and fuck you. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org
2000-09-26 15:27Paul Feuerpop music could also be distinguished from non-pop music (historically academic) by the co
From:
Paul Feuer
To:
IDM (E-mail)
Date:
Tue, 26 Sep 2000 11:27:13 -0400
Subject:
RE: [idm] Pop vs IDM
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pop music could also be distinguished from non-pop music (historically academic) by the considerations of ye olde form and function, tho perhaps photek can be there for both. differences in form and function can often throw a piece into one category or another, so that a french canso would be a popular form while (geez, i'm forgetting all these terms) an organum would be a sacred form (back then essentially the same thing as academic). differences in function, of course, were also apparent, with popular pieces being written more for story telling and partying, and academic/sacred music more for worship and then, as academic and sacred separate, for "musicianship" and then more recently in 20th century turning more and more to process. here you get the 12-tone folks, set theorists, and computer musicians, and such -- webern, schoenberg, babbitt, ussachevsky, luening, et al. currently, in most music we casually refer to as "pop music", there are clear remnants of those old popular forms, where you have ABABCAB, where A is the verse, B is the chorus, and C is the sax solo (if we can take Hall & Oates' Maneater as an example, or i guess Duran Duran's Rio). and in western academic music, of course, we still have plenty of those forms still kicking. the functions, similarly, have thrived with the bulk of the market supporting the "popular" and the academic and state institutions supporting the academic music. musicianship and process have stayed pretty squarely in the realm of academics, even though we can occasionally look to people in pop and praise them for their "classical" training, or just plain wicked chops -- marty friedman, joe satriani, yngwie malmsteen, steve vai, vernon reid, trey anastasio, and ted nugent (tho we can disqualify him on the grounds that he's now a raving loony). more recently, tho, new forms (and i thought it pretty funny for roni size to be the champion here), are challenging what can qualify as chops, and are merging more technically interesting processes with more popular music elements. idm where hip-hop elements are subject to technical manipulation and reconfiguration; rap as a new jazz, where vocalists can rival the musicianship of clarinet players; dj's who make ad hoc compositions out of others, playing with tension, suspension, and resolution - all of these sort of blur the line of traditional distinctions. each genre within will its spectrum from one end to another, so some artists become hard to pin down. these genres are becoming more popular, and some of this gaining popularity is due to the use of "familiar" and "popular" sounds in these products. sort of like when the catholic church decided it didn't have to EVERYTHING in latin - they wanted to stay relevant. the emergence of these genres is also partly the result of the decentralization (demonopolization) of the market, and increased access to technology, and decreased costs of production, so that the market HAS EVEN THE CHANCE to support the music, rather than the powers that be deciding that the multitudes would never want it and therefore not produce it, along the lines of the Commission on Presidential Debates deciding that Ralph isn't popular enough to warrant his inclusion. anyway, i'm rambling now, forgot what my point was. and yes, i know much less about jazz than western academic. ./paul ---------------------------- freight elevator quartet --- becoming transparent --- october 02, 2k --- www.fe4.com --- ---------------------------- -----Original Message----- From: Chris Fahey Sent: Monday, September 25, 2000 8:02 PM To: IDM (E-mail) Subject: RE: [idm] Pop vs IDM I see pop music as music that is born out of the "pop tradition." The pop tradition, born out of centuries of folk music, is a product of the late 20th century (and the advent of the selling of recorded music) and it consists of everything from swing to soul to rock&roll to disco and beyond. Since IDM is a child of many of these movements, it is pop music. IDM may not be popular, but it is a product of the popular music tradition. Pop music has traditionally been simply anything that is not "academic". And although lots of IDM traces at least some of its artistic lineage to classical/academic traditions, the majority of the IDM idiom is pure pop and can trace its roots pretty squarely back into disco, hip hop, r&b, prog rock, punk rock, etc. You could say, however, that we have reached a time when the word pop has almost lost it's meaning, much in the same way that "High" and "Low" art have lost their distinctions. The term "pop" goes back to a time when the academies would enforce a distinction between the intellectual musical activity within their walls and the fun stuff the peasants were playing on their flutes and drums. We all know today that this is a fallacy, that lots of academic music is influenced by folk music (and that non-academic musicians are capable of extraordinary creativity, invention, and genius). IDM is like comic books - it's an art form born from the lower classes and co-opted by a new classless coalition of people who don't give a damn about high or low. It is in large part free of caste stigma (although I'm sure 3/4 of the kids at Julliard would find most IDM pretty hard to bear). If you're going to use the word pop, then you must apply it to almost all IDM - but it's nothing to be ashamed of!!! If you're ashamed to be listening to pop music, then you're a snobby aristocratic twat and fuck you. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org