IDM Mailing Archive

2000-06-16 06:02Michael Upton>===== Original Message From edhall@weirdnoise.com ===== >Saying you can't stand something

From:: Michael Upton <jetjag@MailAndNews.com>
To:: <edhall@weirdnoise.com>, idm <idm@hyperreal.org>
Date:: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 02:02:30 -0400
Subject:: RE: [idm] constructive criticism -

quoted 1 line ===== Original Message From edhall@weirdnoise.com =====

>===== Original Message From edhall@weirdnoise.com =====

quoted 2 lines Saying you can't stand something is an opinion. Saying it

>Saying you can't stand something is an opinion. Saying it >is garbage is an attempt to state an opinion as a fact.

FWIW, I would consider the second sentence above to be an attempt to state an opinion as a fact. At the least you are doing exactly the same thing, grammatically (using a passive mood over personal pronouns), so if grammatical constructions are all that matter, you're just as guilty. I tend to think that the key thing this kind of stuff misses by a country mile is that people use language differently on mailing lists. Consider your context. Some people carefully pick every word, others are more colloquial and chatty. Saying "when you write this, this is the result" strikes me as nonsense, if the massive amount of stylistic variation from poster to poster is not considered. All of that aside, there is a little philosophical buzzword called "emotivism", which states that "X is good" and "I like X", when said by the same speaker, are semantically equivelant. I don't want to muddy my above comment by suggesting this is particularly relevant though, as my main point is that it's impossible to know where any individual poster is coming from to the degree you're ascribing above. Michael np. 'State of the Art Heirloom' -+- Involve Records http://involve.co.nz Jet Jaguar MP3s http://mp3.com/jetjag/ -+- --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

2000-06-16 06:26Adam PiontekOn Fri, 16 Jun 2000 02:02:30 -0400, Michael Upton wrote: >>===== Original Message From edh

From:: Adam Piontek <damek@earthling.net>
To:: idm@hyperreal.org <idm@hyperreal.org>
Date:: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 01:26:54 -0500
Subject:: RE: [idm] constructive criticism and cannibals
Reply to:: RE: [idm] constructive criticism -

On Fri, 16 Jun 2000 02:02:30 -0400, Michael Upton wrote:

quoted 8 lines ===== Original Message From edhall@weirdnoise.com =====

>>===== Original Message From edhall@weirdnoise.com ===== >>Saying you can't stand something is an opinion. Saying it >>is garbage is an attempt to state an opinion as a fact. > >FWIW, I would consider the second sentence above to be an attempt to state an >opinion as a fact. At the least you are doing exactly the same thing, >grammatically (using a passive mood over personal pronouns), so if grammatical >constructions are all that matter, you're just as guilty.

i'm pretty sure he was under the impression that what he was stating *was* a fact.

quoted 6 lines I tend to think that the key thing this kind of stuff misses by a country mile

>I tend to think that the key thing this kind of stuff misses by a country mile >is that people use language differently on mailing lists. Consider your >context. Some people carefully pick every word, others are more colloquial and >chatty. Saying "when you write this, this is the result" strikes me as >nonsense, if the massive amount of stylistic variation from poster to poster >is not considered.

having studied anthropology, i really appreciate what you've said here. on the other hand, as a student of anthropology, i also have to respect that one of the features of any culture, no matter how small, is that it is held together by common accepted practices. it seems to me that what's at issue here is whether it should be an accepted practice in the culture of this list to make statements of opinion like I made, or if it should be more formal and require more effort in each post. to be a participant in the culture of this list (i'm pretty new here, as i'm sure has been noticed), i'm willing to put extra effort in my posts and clarify my opinions when i write them, so those of you complaining about my "it's garbage" statement are half-winning. i say 'half' because i'm not going to stop talking about confucianism, and there's nothing you can do to make me stop! i wasn't talking about confucianism? oh, nevermind then.

quoted 2 lines is that it's impossible to know where any individual poster is coming from to

>is that it's impossible to know where any individual poster is coming from to >the degree you're ascribing above.

true, i agree completely. but i cede the point to those complaining that it's nice when one makes the effort at making their opinions more clearly that. at least for the sake of the group as a whole. sort of like when you're stranded on an island somewhere, and you agree to die for the good of the group so that the others might survive longer by eating you. ok, maybe not. -adam -- Adam Piontek [http://www.tcinternet.net/users/damek/] ICQ: 3456339 [damek@earthling.net] ... "Well, you did say Jehova..." <Thunk!> --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

2000-06-16 07:36edhall@weirdnoise.comOkey dokey. Let me flagellate the deceased equine one more time. I promise, it's off to th

From:: <edhall@weirdnoise.com>
To:: <idm@hyperreal.org>
Date:: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 00:36:24 -0700
Subject:: Re: [idm] constructive criticism and cannibals
Reply to:: RE: [idm] constructive criticism and cannibals

Okey dokey. Let me flagellate the deceased equine one more time. I promise, it's off to the glue factory after this one. Metaphor is good. Opinions are good. I'd love to hear some good ones. I don't care how colloquial your language is. I don't care if the music I like gives you the runs and makes your eyes cross. I don't care if the music you like makes me break out in hives and projectile vomit. Tell me about it. Describe what you hear. If you think something sounds like a room full of monkeys banging on old hubcaps while their gorilla buddy flushes toilets in 5/4 time, then SAY SO. Simple value words like "bad," "garbage," or "stupid" don't tell me a damn thing about how the music sounds. Yeah, it tells me how you feel, on some third-grade level, but frankly that's of little use to me. I don't even feel bad that you've wasted a precious hour of your life listening to something you feel is worthless or just vaguely sub-par. But you can make it more worthwhile, for you and for me and for all the folks at home, if you manage to be a bit more courageous and try to describe what you hear and what you like about it, and what you don't. OK, I'll be blunt. I don't read IDM for any sort of social bonding. I don't read it to validate my views on what music is, Intelligent or Otherwise. I read it to learn and share knowledge, impressions, and ideas about the various beat-oriented electronic musics that folks may or may not call "IDM." I read it to find out about music I might want to seek out or avoid. I read to share information. The fact that you or I find something agreeable or disagreeable is, on its own, of little interest to everybody else. I'm sorry to break that news to you if you haven't realized this before. However, I'm keenly interested in what you've heard that I haven't heard (even if it's something I've listened to before), insofar as you can describe it to me in a way I can understand--and there are quite a few others here who follow and contribute to the list for the same reason. It's called "discussion," and it's what 'most any good mailing list is about. Good information is useful no matter whether the opinions behind it are agreeable or not, 'cause the opinions really don't matter to anyone but the people who have them. OK, 'nuff said from this quarter. -Ed --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

2000-06-16 08:30Loptimiste@aol.comIn a message dated 6/16/00 12:34:08 AM Pacific Daylight Time, edhall@weirdnoise.com writes

From:: <Loptimiste@aol.com>
To:: <idm@hyperreal.org>
Date:: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 04:30:54 EDT
Subject:: Re: [idm] constructive criticism and cannibals

In a message dated 6/16/00 12:34:08 AM Pacific Daylight Time, edhall@weirdnoise.com writes: << The fact that you or I find something agreeable or disagreeable is, on its own, of little interest to everybody else. I'm sorry to break that news to you if you haven't realized this before. However, I'm keenly interested in what you've heard that I haven't heard (even if it's something I've listened to before), insofar as you can describe it to me in a way I can understand- >> i second this. this sums up my feelings on the subject. reviews simply stating that something is "shit" or "trash" don't influence my opinion on music at all... but an actual DESCRIPTION of the music does help.. if you're too lazy to write a review of something in any depth than DON'T bother, it's not helping anyone at all. personal taste is subjective, and everyone knows that. what i like, i know for a fact some people don't. what some people like, i don't. the majority of this list does not know my personal taste at all (and vice versa) so you can't make an accurate judgement on music based on whether or not *I* like it. but if i were to elaborate on why or why not i liked it, you could make a better judgement on whether or not its worth your time to further research it, or in fact buy it. so please... if you can't bother to post a slightly in depth review of something, please don't clutter up the list. and most people who posted short reviews such as "it's trash" took the time to DEFEND their position, so obviously they can take the time to elaborate on their opinion... thanks jared --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

Re: [idm] constructive criticism and cannibals