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(idm) why mask should be bootlegged

19 messages · 14 participants · spans 3 days · search this subject
◇ merged from 2 subjects: (idm) why mask should be bootlegged · list-centrism re: (idm) why mask should be bootlegged
1999-01-04 03:59(idm) why mask should be bootlegged
└─ 1999-01-04 06:30Andrew Hime Re: (idm) why mask should be bootlegged
1999-01-04 12:12Franz Enmark Re: (idm) why mask should be bootlegged
1999-01-04 16:39Marc 3 Poirier Re: (idm) why mask should be bootlegged
1999-01-05 15:11Marc 3 Poirier Re: (idm) why mask should be bootlegged
1999-01-05 15:57Simon Walley Re: (idm) why mask should be bootlegged
└─ 1999-01-06 06:39Irene McC Re: (idm) why mask should be bootlegged
1999-01-05 17:48mach Re: (idm) why mask should be bootlegged
1999-01-05 23:45K J Pocock Re: (idm) why mask should be bootlegged
└─ 1999-01-06 00:06Re: (idm) why mask should be bootlegged
1999-01-06 00:13Will Samuels Re: (idm) why mask should be bootlegged
1999-01-06 02:43Tom Young Re: (idm) why mask should be bootlegged
1999-01-06 07:41Jason Re: (idm) why mask should be bootlegged
1999-01-06 09:52Simon Walley Re: (idm) why mask should be bootlegged
├─ 1999-01-06 10:39List-centrism Re: (idm) why mask should be bootlegged
│ └─ 1999-01-06 16:25zimbo Re: List-centrism Re: (idm) why mask should be bootlegged
└─ 1999-01-06 11:05Re: (idm) why mask should be bootlegged
1999-01-06 10:31tTm lester Re: (idm) why mask should be bootlegged
1999-01-06 21:09K J Pocock Re: (idm) why mask should be bootlegged
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1999-01-04 03:59daniel@eliteware.comThe title got your attention didn't? This is getting out of hand. The other day I had a po
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Sun, 3 Jan 1999 21:59:12 -0600 (CST)
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(idm) why mask should be bootlegged
permalink · <Pine.LNX.3.96.990103214014.1933A-100000@htr-132.tx.symbio.net>
The title got your attention didn't? This is getting out of hand. The other day I had a potential trade going with someone for mask 3. I was giving up some old records and all was set. It was a fair trade. Basically a 2 for 1 deal. However, now that the person sees that he can gauge people he isn't in it for the music anymore. So I propose this: It is quite common for a record to get bootlegged. Basically the record is repressed and sold as a white label. Happens to depeche mode all the time. For example: there were club 69 mixes of "its no good" by the mode that were promo only. Something like 300 existed. A third party got hold of it and repressed it. They then sold them at a reasonable cost and the collectability of the original went away. We should do the same for the mask series. If interested in this "project" email me. Hell they could all be pressed onto 1 or 2 cds... If Skam and MAS actually believe that what they do is for the music they won't care. If it is about having a collectable record and worth they will. Hell, I say give them all the proceeds from the bootlegs (except the initial investment). and yes at one time I did offer mask 2 up for sale for a rather large price. But my sensibilites returned and I never sold it. Hopefully people will read this and their sensibilites will return. I am all for capitalism but I am tired of seeing the likes of Skam and Mas being championed on here when all they do is create BS like this. I am sure it is one huge joke to them. It has to be. I mean why else would you release a frisbee (and your a sad trainspotter if you bought it) other points: instead of paying large amounts of money for a record you can: start your own label (I did) buy equipment get a life... Why IDM is dead in 99: it's the money... -daniel
1999-01-04 06:30Andrew Hime> Why IDM is dead in 99: > it's the money... I wish IDM made it so I could fix my car.
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Andrew Hime
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Mon, 4 Jan 1999 00:30:03 -0600 (CST)
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(idm) why mask should be bootlegged
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quoted 2 lines Why IDM is dead in 99:> Why IDM is dead in 99: > it's the money...
I wish IDM made it so I could fix my car.
1999-01-04 12:12Franz EnmarkMask has never been about the musics anyways so although bootlegging would do fine with me
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Franz Enmark
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Mon, 04 Jan 1999 13:12:22 +0100
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Re: (idm) why mask should be bootlegged
permalink · <3.0.1.32.19990104131222.00a63250@gargamel.com>
Mask has never been about the musics anyways so although bootlegging would do fine with me, I hardly think that those who pay $450 for 4 tracks are buying the 4 tracks that they could've gotten from me on a CD for a tenner including postage. Bootlegging would be fine if one could make an exact copy of the original, not some white label. There souldn't be any way to tell them apart. I'm totally down with that. Franz http://gargamel.com/frankie -- WHEN DOGMA ENTERS THE BRAIN, ALL INTELLECTUAL ACTIVITY CEASES. - Robert Anton Wilson
1999-01-04 16:39Marc 3 PoirierI tried this (in a way), & I don't think people are even interested in this, for the most
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Marc 3 Poirier
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Mon, 4 Jan 1999 11:39:29 -0500 (EST)
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I tried this (in a way), & I don't think people are even interested in this, for the most part. I offered a few months ago, on this list, to make CDRs of MASK 3 & 4 for anyone interested if they just sent me a blank CDR, a postage paid return package, & $1 (& I only asked for $1 because my CD burner is dying). I did this because I thought that the music on these was really great (well, maybe not side 2 of MASK 4) & that people interested in it should be able to hear it (& I thought that that was why people started record labels & put out music in the first place). I only got interested responses from a few people, probably 5 or 6, & then only ended up getting blank CDRs from 2 people. It's sad to say but, I think that people paying these proices may be as shallow as can be when it comes to this stuff, not even "in it for the music." Marc Poirier
1999-01-05 15:11Marc 3 Poirier> >I did this because I thought that the music on these was really great > >(well, maybe n
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Marc 3 Poirier
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Simon Walley
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Tue, 5 Jan 1999 10:11:16 -0500 (EST)
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Re: (idm) why mask should be bootlegged
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quoted 12 lines I did this because I thought that the music on these was really great> >I did this because I thought that the music on these was really great > >(well, maybe not side 2 of MASK 4) & that people interested in it > >should be able to hear it (& I thought that that was why people started > >record labels & put out music in the first place). > > Hmm? Reasons for running a label can be many but the reason that "people > interested in it should be able to hear it" doesn't wash with the Mask > series because if that is the main reason, then they wouldn't have been > so limited. Remember the artists don't write music just for the fans - > they write it for themselves (usually). If a label is into it and wants > to release it, then thats a bonus. Labels aren't inherently benevolent > to fans.
I was more sayig what I would hope would be the reason. You bring up 2 things, running a record label & creating music, & both are very different things with different motivations behind them.
quoted 8 lines Doing bootlegs or whatever with the idea that you are opening this music> Doing bootlegs or whatever with the idea that you are opening this music > up to others is very noble but it shows little/no respect for either the > artists or the label itself which organised the original versions. > Running a label isn't an easy thing to do if you do it properly - its > something you should only do if you truly love the music and are > prepared to invest a lot of time and money into it. To run off quick > copies of this effort, this passion for this music is not, to me, noble > at all.
I don't remember saying it was noble & I don't think MASK is running a a label well. If fans are waiting for this music &, immediately upon its release, they are wasting time fruitlessly hunting it down or even paying hundreds of dollars for it only weeks after its release, then that sucks. That's what I'm saying. I just don't want to see that. Plus, the MASKs are now filled with unknown musicians. These musicians are getting practically no recognition for their music. This is why I think they are doing a bad job with their label. V/Vm have a great attitude with regard to this (& I think they run a wonderful record label). Anyone can MP3 or CDR any of their records once their out of print. V/Vm are happy for more interested people to be able to hear their music.
quoted 2 lines IMO the best way to support the scene and make sure this music gets> IMO the best way to support the scene and make sure this music gets > heard is to start your own label not rip off someone elses.
Well, I've already done the first thing a long time ago, & I don't I've done the 2nd thing yet as neither MAS nor Skam are making anything on the MASKs anymore. Marc Poirier
1999-01-05 15:57Simon Walley> I don't remember saying it was noble No that was me. I only mentioned it because your st
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Simon Walley
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Tue, 05 Jan 1999 07:57:25 PST
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permalink · <19990105155727.18742.qmail@hotmail.com>
quoted 1 line I don't remember saying it was noble> I don't remember saying it was noble
No that was me. I only mentioned it because your stance was pretty altruistic - helping others out who haven't got access to the music. Which purely in that context is 'noble' and pretty commendable.
quoted 2 lines & I don't think MASK is running a>& I don't think MASK is running a >a label well.
So? Its not for you to say. They can run their label any damn way they want. Don't like it? Start up your own.
quoted 2 lines If fans are waiting for this music &, immediately upon its>If fans are waiting for this music &, immediately upon its >release, they are wasting time fruitlessly hunting it down or even
paying
quoted 1 line hundreds of dollars for it only weeks after its release, then that>hundreds of dollars for it only weeks after its release, then that
sucks. I agree. I think it sucks because they're so limited as well. But if I miss out, then I miss out.
quoted 1 line That's what I'm saying. I just don't want to see that. Plus, the>That's what I'm saying. I just don't want to see that. Plus, the
MASKs
quoted 2 lines are now filled with unknown musicians. These musicians are getting>are now filled with unknown musicians. These musicians are getting >practically no recognition for their music.
But the artists knew that before they signed up. Whats the problem? And, if anything, having your artist name on a Mask record is a nice bit of kudos.
quoted 2 lines V/Vm have a great attitude with regard to this (& I think they run a> V/Vm have a great attitude with regard to this (& I think they run a >wonderful record label). Anyone can MP3 or CDR any of their records
once
quoted 1 line their out of print. V/Vm are happy for more interested people to be>their out of print. V/Vm are happy for more interested people to be
able
quoted 1 line to hear their music.>to hear their music.
And fair play to them. Thats their call. Bothe the label (Mask) and the artists might also be into this (has anyone actually asked them?) but equally they might not be. If not, I'd respect their wishes.
quoted 3 lines Well, I've already done the first thing a long time ago, & I don't> Well, I've already done the first thing a long time ago, & I don't >I've done the 2nd thing yet as neither MAS nor Skam are making anything >on the MASKs anymore.
The fact they're not making money on them anymore is just a small part of it - the runs were so limited, I doubt they made much on them anyway. And remember they might want to give them a full re-release in the future - bootlegs might damage this. All I'm saying is this - the Mask guys run the label how they want to. If you don't like it, tough. As I said before, it takes a *lot* of time, energy, money, contacts and friendship to run a label and to produce releases that look and sound exactly as you want them. And if you profess to be a fan of this music and this scene, isn't that worth respecting just a little? I agree that the 12"s should be re-pressed or whatever because there are some amazing tracks on there (all by BoC :) and the limited nature was such that it operated more as a hype-machine than a genuine minority interest targetted-for-hardcore-fans release. But it's up to Mask and their artists if this should go ahead, no-one else. IMHO naturally. || [CiM] || cim_@hotmail.com || - ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
1999-01-06 06:39Irene McCOn 5 Jan 99, Simon Walley wrote: > >& I don't think MASK is running a label well. > So? It
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Irene McC
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Wed, 6 Jan 1999 08:39:01 +0200
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Re: (idm) why mask should be bootlegged
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On 5 Jan 99, Simon Walley wrote:
quoted 1 line & I don't think MASK is running a label well.> >& I don't think MASK is running a label well.
quoted 2 lines So? Its not for you to say. They can run their label any damn way they> So? Its not for you to say. They can run their label any damn way they > want. Don't like it? Start up your own
Naaah, I can't go with that argument. This list is a forum for comments just like that : it's a place for people to express their opinions. Even *if* you start your own label, it still doesn't help you get hold of obscure stuff off some 'badly' run label, does it? I, for one, haven't seen a single MASK / SKAM release here in South Africa. Luckily I've managed to hear some of their stuff via MP3's or obliging traders and although some of the music is *essential IDM*, it still doesn't warrant idiotic prices (imo). But as long as there are people who will pay 'what the market will hold', then these ridiculous auctions will continue. Who's to say? I *
1999-01-05 17:48mach> do fine with me, I hardly think that those who pay $450 for 4 tracks are > buying the 4
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mach
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Franz Enmark ,
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Tue, 05 Jan 1999 12:48:44 -0500
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Re: (idm) why mask should be bootlegged
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quoted 3 lines do fine with me, I hardly think that those who pay $450 for 4 tracks are> do fine with me, I hardly think that those who pay $450 for 4 tracks are > buying the 4 tracks that they could've gotten from me on a CD for a tenner > including postage.
Or for *FREE* (that's no charge) from the Bleep Bloop server. leif
1999-01-05 23:45K J PocockDate: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 10:11:16 -0500 (EST) From: Marc 3 Poirier <mpoirier@virtu.sar.usf.ed
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K J Pocock
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Tue, 5 Jan 1999 23:45:27 -0000
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Re: (idm) why mask should be bootlegged
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Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 10:11:16 -0500 (EST) From: Marc 3 Poirier <mpoirier@virtu.sar.usf.edu> Subject: Re: (idm) why mask should be bootlegged
quoted 4 lines I did this because I thought that the music on these was really great>I did this because I thought that the music on these was really great >(well, maybe not side 2 of MASK 4) & that people interested in it >should be able to hear it (& I thought that that was why people started >record labels & put out music in the first place).
As a musician and partner in a new small label I can't see any argument for bootlegging - period. We've just released our first album by DELPH and have had great difficulties in sorting out distribution (one of our distributors recently went bust -nothing to do with us: ) ) so we can't always get our records where we want them. We'd love to have them in every store worldwide but it just doesn't work that way for our size of operation. Yes we do mail order but not everybody wants to buy like that. We run on an extremely tight budget and I mean extremely... :) Basically we do what we do for the love of the music and that's it - to see your hard work being ripped off by a bootlegger whether it be MP3, CD duplication or whatever...sorry it doesn't wash. If you're going to do it do it properly and have respect for the music, the fans and the artists. Thanks for listening. Kevin Blue Pool records: www.bluepool.demon.co.uk Delph: www.bluepool.demon.co.uk/delph
1999-01-06 00:06daniel@eliteware.comWhat everyone seems to be forgetting here is that this isn't the case of poor distribution
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K J Pocock
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Tue, 5 Jan 1999 18:06:28 -0600 (CST)
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Re: (idm) why mask should be bootlegged
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Re: (idm) why mask should be bootlegged
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What everyone seems to be forgetting here is that this isn't the case of poor distribution or records that are widely available. These are records that were purposely pressed at low volumes so as to create a demand. The fella that runs skam purposely made sure that only a few records were sent to the states. PJ had to do invites to sell the music. We are talking about serious elitism here. Notice I did not say bootleg the latest bola cd or the jega ep (the first one). Why? because these were made available and can be found. If you did not get one that is your own fault. Skam pressed as many as they could afford on those. They were doing the best they could. However, when you purposely create muck and mire like the mask series has, then you should be held responsible. Why hasn't skam came forward and said "awww shucks didn't realize all you people wanted this" and then released a cd comp of them? A good example of this is the from beyond series. Hard to find but tasty. The label, in the end, released a cd that compiled all the vinyl. They even retained the exclusivness of the vinyl by releasing slightly different versions on the cd. lastly, note that I said if it was bootlegged the money should be handed over to skam. Now how exactly is that hurting skam? -daniel
1999-01-06 00:13Will Samuels> We run on an extremely tight budget and I mean > extremely... :) Basically we do what we
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Will Samuels
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K J Pocock ,
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Tue, 5 Jan 1999 16:13:45 -0800 (PST)
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Re: (idm) why mask should be bootlegged
permalink · <19990106001345.16965.rocketmail@send102.yahoomail.com>
quoted 1 line We run on an extremely tight budget and I mean > extremely...> We run on an extremely tight budget and I mean > extremely...
:) Basically we do what we do for the > love of the music and that's it - to see your hard
quoted 1 line work being ripped off by a bootlegger whether it be > MP3, CD> work being ripped off by a bootlegger whether it be > MP3, CD
duplication or whatever...sorry it doesn't > wash.
quoted 1 line If you're going to do it do it properly and have > respect for> If you're going to do it do it properly and have > respect for
the music, the fans and the artists.
quoted 1 line Thanks for listening.> Thanks for listening.
Good point. In the case of the MASK stuff, they deliberately chose to release a very limited amount. They have already sold and made the quantity that they set out to do. A number TOO low to satisfy demand. So it sets up an environment where people are going to have bidding wars or just bootleg their music. If they don't want people to bootleg, then make the music readily available and stop all this SUPER limited bullshit. I agree that the people making the cdr shouldn't profit from someone else's work. But I don't see a problem with copying it for friends or trades. _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
1999-01-06 02:43Tom YoungAndrew Hime wrote: > > Why IDM is dead in 99: > > it's the money... > > I wish IDM made it
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Tom Young
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Tue, 05 Jan 1999 21:43:42 -0500
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permalink · <3692CDDD.6BD8AA2C@rit.edu>
Andrew Hime wrote:
quoted 4 lines Why IDM is dead in 99:> > Why IDM is dead in 99: > > it's the money... > > I wish IDM made it so I could fix my car.
Who knows? I fix my car whilst listening to IDM. ...the record politics continues.
1999-01-06 07:41JasonI have read most of the comments about this whole matter and then I remebered what I have
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Jason
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Wed, 06 Jan 1999 01:41:22 -0600
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I have read most of the comments about this whole matter and then I remebered what I have heard time and time again. According to some artists, they make music for themselves, family and friends. I didn't recall artists or IDM artists for that matter saying they make the music for the masses. So, in this case, Skam & Music Aus Strom have come together to form Mask and as we all know and are 4 releases deep. To me, I don't see Mask as a label its nothing more than two well established labels combining their efforts to release more records. Yes in limited numbers... but thats their decision. I have no problem with them or anyone releasing limited copies of records. Those who really want it will get it. If you miss out, too bad. -- Jason McCollum jm45675@swt.edu
1999-01-06 09:52Simon Walley>> >& I don't think MASK is running a label well. > >> So? Its not for you to say. They ca
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Simon Walley
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Wed, 06 Jan 1999 01:52:16 PST
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Re: (idm) why mask should be bootlegged
permalink · <19990106095217.1473.qmail@hotmail.com>
quoted 3 lines & I don't think MASK is running a label well.>> >& I don't think MASK is running a label well. > >> So? Its not for you to say. They can run their label any damn way
they
quoted 5 lines want. Don't like it? Start up your own>> want. Don't like it? Start up your own > >Naaah, I can't go with that argument. This list is a forum for >comments just like that : it's a place for people to express their >opinions.
Yes, true. My (badly expressed) point was that, in itself, thats not a good reason for bootlegging something. And that one occasional reason why people start their own label is a disatisfaction with others. My point about starting a label is that bootlegging releases gives little back to the IDM scene - it doesn't support the artist or the label you're bootlegging and it won't encourage new listeners (because the boots will still be limited runs and hard to get hold of, outisde the internet). Starting a label however and seeing it through gives support to new artists and gives the fan another name to check out, one they might get into and be keen to support.
quoted 1 line Even *if* you start your own label, it still doesn't help you get hold>Even *if* you start your own label, it still doesn't help you get hold
of
quoted 1 line obscure stuff off some 'badly' run label, does it?>obscure stuff off some 'badly' run label, does it?
Potentially, it might do. I'm sure Mask would be more open to a label coming up to them and striking a deal for a license/re-press rather than someone bootlegging them. || [CiM] || cim_@hotmail.com || - ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
1999-01-06 10:39bloch@verdurin.freeserve.co.ukThe point has been made in similar discussions in the past, but it should be remembered th
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List-centrism Re: (idm) why mask should be bootlegged
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The point has been made in similar discussions in the past, but it should be remembered that this is just a mailing list. People on it sometimes attribute too much importance to themselves. The record industry does not check first with IDM before doing something.
1999-01-06 16:25zimboOn Wed, 6 Jan 1999 bloch@verdurin.freeserve.co.uk wrote: > The point has been made in simi
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On Wed, 6 Jan 1999 bloch@verdurin.freeserve.co.uk wrote:
quoted 4 lines The point has been made in similar discussions in the past, but it should> The point has been made in similar discussions in the past, but it should > be remembered that this is just a mailing list. People on it sometimes > attribute too much importance to themselves. The record industry does not > check first with IDM before doing something.
i see it more as people attribute too much importance to labels who play the game of "we are important" :) chris.
1999-01-06 11:05daniel@eliteware.com> why people start their own label is a disatisfaction with others. > > My point about sta
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Re: (idm) why mask should be bootlegged
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Re: (idm) why mask should be bootlegged
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quoted 10 lines why people start their own label is a disatisfaction with others.> why people start their own label is a disatisfaction with others. > > My point about starting a label is that bootlegging releases gives > little back to the IDM scene - it doesn't support the artist or the > label you're bootlegging and it won't encourage new listeners (because > the boots will still be limited runs and hard to get hold of, outisde > the internet). Starting a label however and seeing it through gives > support to new artists and gives the fan another name to check out, one > they might get into and be keen to support. >
again. I have clearly said that any money gained should be given back to the label. How does that not support the label? The label can then do whatever they please with the money. Like make more frisbees. I will restate no one ever said rip skam off. What was said is that a bootleg was in order because mask knowingly created a situation in which they knew bidding wars would happen. It is one thing to do a limited press but another to make sure it is also hard to get. Case in point, Jake Mandell ep. 300 were made of that. But it could be found. Never saw lucky kitchen causing resellers to only invite certain elite customers to buy it. Never saw lucky kitchen restricting the flow. Mask did all those things. my last word on it. I started a label. We go to press this month. I am giving back. And yes a couple limited releases are planned (for economic reasons). But those releases will be made available via mp3 as well. However, even those releases should be easy to get hold of. p.s. mas and skam are hardly the record industry. This is not an attack on the workings of the capitalistic machine. It is a criticism of a label who in my opinion are doing this as one big joke. They are taking a piss and having a laugh at our expense. -daniel
1999-01-06 10:31tTm lesterpuke, vomit, lard, ca-ca. cdr the shite. i only support an artist when she/ he feels like
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tTm lester
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Wed, 6 Jan 1999 02:31:17 -0800
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Re: (idm) why mask should be bootlegged
permalink · <19990106.023130.3726.3.stepintime@juno.com>
puke, vomit, lard, ca-ca. cdr the shite. i only support an artist when she/ he feels like supporting me (with good stuff). it keeps going up buy a factor of 100, so Mask will eventually get up in the thousands, millions and billions. they should be easy to get then. caught contributing, damn// ???Ы ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]
1999-01-06 21:09K J Pocock>Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 16:13:45 -0800 (PST) >From: Will Samuels <w_technoir@yahoo.com> >Su
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K J Pocock
To:
Date:
Wed, 6 Jan 1999 21:09:56 -0000
Subject:
Re: (idm) why mask should be bootlegged
permalink · <003401be39b9$6af7a4a0$f9cfdec2@kjp>
quoted 14 lines Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 16:13:45 -0800 (PST)>Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 16:13:45 -0800 (PST) >From: Will Samuels <w_technoir@yahoo.com> >Subject: Re: (idm) why mask should be bootlegged > > >> We run on an extremely tight budget and I mean > extremely... >:) Basically we do what we do for the > love of the music and that's >it - to see your hard >> work being ripped off by a bootlegger whether it be > MP3, CD >duplication or whatever...sorry it doesn't > wash. > >> If you're going to do it do it properly and have > respect for >the music, the fans and the artists. >> Thanks for listening.
quoted 1 line Good point.>Good point.
Thanks :)
quoted 6 lines In the case of the MASK stuff, they deliberately chose to release a>In the case of the MASK stuff, they deliberately chose to release a >very limited amount. They have already sold and made the quantity that >they set out to do. A number TOO low to satisfy demand. So it sets up >an environment where people are going to have bidding wars or just >bootleg their music. If they don't want people to bootleg, then make >the music readily available and stop all this SUPER limited bullshit.
I can see your point in one way but if someone else wants to reissue their music they should sort out a license agreement - in other words ask them and get their permission. If the label doesn't agree and wants to do a limited edition however that's up to them - it happens in the visual art world all the time and it's usually an edition of one :) Do I have an automatic right to anything I want? Just a thought...
quoted 3 lines I agree that the people making the cdr shouldn't profit from someone>I agree that the people making the cdr shouldn't profit from someone >else's work. But I don't see a problem with copying it for friends or >trades.
No I'm not against making a copy for a friend - the point I was making was about multiple bootleg copies. Take care. Kevin Blue Pool records: www.bluepool.demon.co.uk