IDM Mailing Archive

1998-09-30 22:23Christopher Fahey>From: Che <zeus8@synthcom.com> > >My guess is that your experience was more a product of

From:: Christopher Fahey <chris@raremedium.com>
To:: <idm@hyperreal.org>, Che <zeus8@synthcom.com>
Date:: Wed, 30 Sep 1998 18:23:01 -0400
Subject:: (idm) Giuiliani vs. Amon Tobin

quoted 4 lines From: Che <zeus8@synthcom.com>

>From: Che <zeus8@synthcom.com> > >My guess is that your experience was more a product of venue & a "we're too >cool to dance" NYC audience.

Yes! Both! But there's one other thing: Rudolph "Dickhead" Giuliani. You see, he has cracked down with some zoning and licensing laws from the 12th century which pertain to where you can and cannot dance. Basically, there are only a handful of nightclubs in NYC where, legally, you are permitted to dance. Most people have been dancing in all kinds of places for years whenever the groove hit them, but nowadays you can go to a bar and find the furniture arranged inconveniently to discourage dancing so that the club owner is not slapped with a $3000 fine. Or you may even be asked to stop dancing by a club employee. The rippling effect of this is that spontaneous dancing in bars is seriously curtailed throughout the city. Lameness reigns. (I hope all of you Americans on this list realize that every time you vote for a Republican you are voting in favor of stopping people from dancing. It's true.)

quoted 2 lines Personally, I don't understand how anyone

>Personally, I don't understand how anyone >could listen to this music & NOT DANCE!

I was boogieing off-n-on until my lady showed up. We had some drinks and puffnstuff and then we left.

quoted 2 lines You forgot 3) Give the artist some satisfaction in having reached &

>You forgot 3) Give the artist some satisfaction in having reached & >entertained an audience. I take it you've never played a live show.

No, but almost all of my friends do and I would say you're partly right - an artist might love performing live, and they might hate it. Either way, if you ask any non-artist in the record industry, they'll tell you the artists *have* to do it for reason #1 (promoting records).

quoted 3 lines I have to say that Amon Tobin's set is the

>I have to say that Amon Tobin's set is the >freshest thing I've seen & heard since the last time I caught Orbital. >What stopped you from dancing, anyway?

Well, first of all I would have been the only one dancing had I chose to do so any time within the first 2 1/2 hours of the night. I like to tear it up, but I guess I wasn't in the mood to 'break the ice.' I explored a bit, had some drinks, returned to the main room and found that the scattered beginnings of a decent sized dance floor had formed so I joined in.

quoted 4 lines One thing that's obvious from the tour reviews posted is that the artists

>One thing that's obvious from the tour reviews posted is that the artists >have played different records from show to show. No artist I saw was >ignoring the audience, meaning that their record choice was based on >audience feedback. That makes it better than a mix tape done in a studio

Agreed - a DJ plays for and to the crowd. But any good DJ would do the same.

quoted 2 lines Of course 99% of the audience can't

>Of course 99% of the audience can't >tell when a show is mimed to a DAT anyway.

When the Bingo Boys, my 5-man-teen-idol-supergroup re-forms, we'll keep this in mind!

quoted 2 lines I've got nothing against paying a hefty nightclub admission charge to

>> I've got nothing against paying a hefty nightclub admission charge to >>listen to DJs spin dance music, get high/drunk/laid, watch cute people,

and

quoted 4 lines just have fun...

>>just have fun... > >I'm beginning to get the idea that you're into music for something besides >the music.

No, no, no! I was only pointing out two of the many differences between listening to records at home ad going out to a concert... One difference is that the artist might do something spontaneous and improvisational live, something I would not ever be able to experience on a record. This show strongly lacked that element, so I was (with tongue-in-cheek) hoping it would make up for it with Difference #2, which is all the other things that happen at nightclubs except the music (people, architecture, freaks, drinks/drugs, visuals, food, clothes). The show didn't really even offer that stuff to any great spectacular degree. The music is the most important thing, but I'd be a liar if I said #2 was a non-issue to me - if the dance floor was full of flailing longhairs with tie dyed shirts, or fist pumping frat boys, or spastic first-time-jungle dancers, or all boys, I'd probably sit it out too.

quoted 7 lines Amon Tobin could hire a real band to reproduce his electronic

>> Amon Tobin could hire a real band to reproduce his electronic >>compositions and my bet is that it would sound fucking amazing. > >My bet is that it would betray the music. Tobin's music is for me the >pinnacle of postmodernist expression - to play it with a live band would be >a grotesque expression of nostalgia (and don't think for a minute that >recycling old music & recontextualizing is based on nostalgia).

It's just an idea. I think you're right about what he does: his work is conceptually rooted in the history of *recorded* music - it's relationship to 'live' music is like that between a ghost and a rotting corpse. How's this for another option: he rehearses for months on his powerbook with a bunch of rack mounted decks and effects and samplers and all and learns how to create some awesome live sound manipulations in real time. Then he can go on tour and knobtwiddle for the crowds. If I were in his shoes, I think I might have a bit of an ethical problem with the whole concept of touring given his theoretical take on the studio nature of his own music. (I'm trying to make some tracks at home, but I can't imagine myself performing these in a million years, due to my lack of stage skill. I loved that when RDJ tours he sits there and the two dancing bears do the real show. Unlike RDJ himself, they were fun to while I was not dancing.)

quoted 1 line I feel like a sucker. I honestly want to support artists I like, but

>> I feel like a sucker. I honestly want to support artists I like, but

not

quoted 1 line if they're going to go on tour and just spin the same fucking records I

>>if they're going to go on tour and just spin the same fucking records I

can

quoted 2 lines hear in about twenty other NYC bars on any night of the week for free. We

>>hear in about twenty other NYC bars on any night of the week for free. We >>fans of this music should really stop letting ourselves be suckered by

these

quoted 5 lines fake concerts/fake parties.

>>fake concerts/fake parties. > >Please, tell me which bars in NYC I can hear nothing but Amon Tobin & Funki >Porcini at, loud and for hours on end, on a Monday night and better yet for >free. Next time I visit I'd like to visit one of these mythical places.

Well, okay, maybe they won't play "nothing but Amon Tobin & Funki Porcini"... they might actually mix in music from other artists, maybe even from other genres! And okay, maybe you might have to also pay $5 to get in at some joints. But, yes, on any given night of the week there are probably a dozen different bars open for free in which you will be able to hear decent drum and bass for some portion of the evening. And over the course of one week you'll find probably forty places for $5 or less that will play nonstop drum and bass for a (illegal) dance floor.

quoted 2 lines rock - rok (v.) - having a conventional and/or boring nature. ex: "Khakis

>rock - rok (v.) - having a conventional and/or boring nature. ex: "Khakis >rock". "That Rolling Stones show rocked". syn: suck.

I love this quote. - Chris ' - . _ . - ' ^ ' - . _ . - ' ^ ' - . _ . - c h r i s t ø p h e r f ª h e y . _ . - ' ^ ' - . _ . - ' ^ ' - . _ . - ' ^ chris@raremedium.com 2 1 2 - 6 3 4 - 6 9 5 0 x 2 5 8 http://www.raremedium.com - ' ^ ' - . _ . - ' ^ ' - . _ . - ' ^ ' - .

1998-09-30 23:10Jeff Waye/Ninja Tune> I >loved that when RDJ tours he sits there and the two dancing bears do the >real show.

From:: Jeff Waye/Ninja Tune <ninjeff@generation.net>
To:: Christopher Fahey <chris@raremedium.com>, <idm@hyperreal.org>
Date:: Wed, 30 Sep 98 19:10:55 -0400
Subject:: Re: (idm) Giuiliani vs. Amon Tobin

quoted 3 lines I

> I >loved that when RDJ tours he sits there and the two dancing bears do the >real show. Unlike RDJ himself, they were fun to while I was not dancing.)

Actually we've been looking into getting in touch with some of those 'rent a washed up celebraty' agencies to outfit the Ninja tours. Sure you can spend all the money you want on visuals and lights to 'freak out' the kids, but don't tell me you wouldn't even be more freaked out if we hired Sherman Helmsley, Todd Bridges, Gary Coleman, or Jimmy Walker (it would be wicked...everytime you bought a shirt he could scream...'Dynamite!')to work the door or sell merchandise. Problem is, how do you tour with them for a month without them finding out they're only there for a laugh. Anyway, next U.S/Canada tour will be Herbaliser as full 8 peice band...so no 'that wasn't live' complaints... Jeff

1998-10-01 02:17Danny WyattFrom: Perfect Sound Forever <perfect-sound@furious.com> >Ideally, it should be the music t

From:: Danny Wyatt <danny@arbitrary.com>
To:: Christopher Fahey <chris@raremedium.com>, <idm@hyperreal.org>, Che <zeus8@synthcom.com>
Date:: Wed, 30 Sep 1998 22:17:51 -0400
Subject:: Re: (idm) Giuiliani vs. Amon Tobin

From: Perfect Sound Forever <perfect-sound@furious.com>

quoted 3 lines Ideally, it should be the music that's the important thing for the

>Ideally, it should be the music that's the important thing for the >live shows but you also go out to these things for the PRESENCE of >these artists you like also.

Oh man, I studied literary theory at an east coast university and I could bore everyone for days about this: Benjamin and aura, Lacan and the symbolic, Derrida and iteration, but, er, I won't. From: Christopher Fahey <chris@raremedium.com>

quoted 3 lines From: Che <zeus8@synthcom.com>

>>From: Che <zeus8@synthcom.com> >> >>My guess is that your experience was more a product of venue & a

"we're too

quoted 4 lines cool to dance" NYC audience.

>>cool to dance" NYC audience. > > Yes! Both! >

[...]

quoted 1 line No, no, no! I was only pointing out two of the many differences

> No, no, no! I was only pointing out two of the many differences

between

quoted 1 line listening to records at home ad going out to a concert... One

>listening to records at home ad going out to a concert... One

difference is

quoted 1 line that the artist might do something spontaneous and improvisational

>that the artist might do something spontaneous and improvisational

live,

quoted 1 line something I would not ever be able to experience on a record. This

>something I would not ever be able to experience on a record. This

show

quoted 1 line strongly lacked that element, so I was (with tongue-in-cheek) hoping

>strongly lacked that element, so I was (with tongue-in-cheek) hoping

quoted 1 line would make up for it with Difference #2, which is all the other

>would make up for it with Difference #2, which is all the other

things that

quoted 2 lines happen at nightclubs except the music (people, architecture, freaks,

>happen at nightclubs except the music (people, architecture, freaks, >drinks/drugs, visuals, food, clothes). The show didn't really even

offer

quoted 1 line that stuff to any great spectacular degree. The music is the most

>that stuff to any great spectacular degree. The music is the most

important

quoted 1 line thing, but I'd be a liar if I said #2 was a non-issue to me - if the

>thing, but I'd be a liar if I said #2 was a non-issue to me - if the

dance

quoted 1 line floor was full of flailing longhairs with tie dyed shirts, or fist

>floor was full of flailing longhairs with tie dyed shirts, or fist

pumping

quoted 1 line frat boys, or spastic first-time-jungle dancers, or all boys, I'd

>frat boys, or spastic first-time-jungle dancers, or all boys, I'd

probably

quoted 1 line sit it out too.

>sit it out too.

I think this (#2) is the reason most of us go to these things. To get out of the house and see people and dance with other people around, etc. For example, I actually got to meet Chris Fahey at this show, bringing the total number of people from this list that I've met in person up to one. And as far as the dancing goes, I don't think it has much to with Giuliani. The Cooler has a cabaret license, but that doesn't stop it from being anathema to dance. It's a club where people go to hang out and be, you know, cutting edge. Just like this drum'n'bass stuff I've been hearing about on MTV... Chris, I don't know if you noticed, but when you and Paul and I were talking in the back during the opening act, their MC gave up on trying to get people to dance and just started doing d'n'b for dummies: "This is what we call the hardstep," "This last one's what we call darkside." I didn't take that as a good sign. Then, when I moved up front for MMM I finally figured out why there was a one yard gap between the first people and the stage: there were other people *sitting down* in front of the stage. This so amused or bewildered MMM that he took their picture after his set was over. They eventually just got up and left during Amon Tobin's set, which was, I might add, about 20 minutes too long. He just kept going with less and less interesting stuff and it got boring. Judging from people I talked to afterwards, I'm far from alone in this opinion. Then, it seemed like he only got off the stage because the cart on the righthand deck broke. Of course, Jonah Sharp had no way of knowing this until he went on and was forced to desperately kick in his live stuff when the last track that Tobin spun ended on the good deck. He then mixed between his equipment (which I couldn't see since it was behind the mixer from me) and one deck until the roadie guy (who was more than ready to make sure the sound man had everything turned up to 11 for Amon Tobin's set) liesurely got around to fixing the broken cart. The fact that Jonah Sharp dealt with all this, kept everyone dancing (the non-dancers left with Amon Tobin) and then swung it into a *very* enjoyable set was live enough for me. It's too bad I had to leave around 3:00 while he was still going strong, but maybe if those last, boring 20 minutes had been cut from Amon Tobin's set... Don't get me wrong all three sets were (except for, uh, about 20 minutes) terrific and Amon Tobin is a great musician and DJ. I guess it just seemed like there was such a scene there trying to say "hey, look at me, I'm hip to Amon Tobin" that I was put off when the other artists didn't get the appreciation they deserved. Of course, this isn't Amon Tobin's fault and I've learned to expect as much from New York City and the Cooler, but it still gets me mad. So, like Chris, I was disappointed with the crowd, but not with the show (except for the aforementioned 20 minutes).

quoted 1 line Please, tell me which bars in NYC I can hear nothing but Amon Tobin

>>Please, tell me which bars in NYC I can hear nothing but Amon Tobin

& Funki

quoted 1 line Porcini at, loud and for hours on end, on a Monday night and better

>>Porcini at, loud and for hours on end, on a Monday night and better

yet for

quoted 1 line free. Next time I visit I'd like to visit one of these mythical

>>free. Next time I visit I'd like to visit one of these mythical

places.

quoted 3 lines Well, okay, maybe they won't play "nothing but Amon Tobin & Funki

> > Well, okay, maybe they won't play "nothing but Amon Tobin & Funki >Porcini"... they might actually mix in music from other artists,

maybe even

quoted 1 line from other genres! And okay, maybe you might have to also pay $5 to

>from other genres! And okay, maybe you might have to also pay $5 to

get in

quoted 1 line at some joints. But, yes, on any given night of the week there are

>at some joints. But, yes, on any given night of the week there are

probably

quoted 1 line a dozen different bars open for free in which you will be able to

>a dozen different bars open for free in which you will be able to

hear

quoted 1 line decent drum and bass for some portion of the evening. And over the

>decent drum and bass for some portion of the evening. And over the

course of

quoted 1 line one week you'll find probably forty places for $5 or less that will

>one week you'll find probably forty places for $5 or less that will

play

quoted 1 line nonstop drum and bass for a (illegal) dance floor.

>nonstop drum and bass for a (illegal) dance floor.

Seriously, there are *two* big drum'n'bass parties every week. Even the damn Rivertown lounge has a drum'n'bass night! You can't bend over to tie your shoes in New York these days without hitting your head on a breakbeat. It's as ubiquitous as Thurston Moore was three years ago. Which should remind us how spoiled we are in New York. There are plenty of towns with no drum'n'bass nights anywhere ever that the ninja tour couldn't afford to visit.

quoted 9 lines ' - . _ . - ' ^ ' - . _ . - ' ^ ' - . _ . -

>' - . _ . - ' ^ ' - . _ . - ' ^ ' - . _ . - > > c h r i s t ø p h e r f ª h e y > >. _ . - ' ^ ' - . _ . - ' ^ ' - . _ . - ' ^ > chris@raremedium.com >2 1 2 - 6 3 4 - 6 9 5 0 x 2 5 8 > http://www.raremedium.com >- ' ^ ' - . _ . - ' ^ ' - . _ . - ' ^ ' - .

------------------------------------- Danny Wyatt danny@arbitrary.com http://www.arbitrary.com

1998-10-04 06:30CheAt 06:23 PM 9/30/98 -0400, Christopher Fahey wrote: >>From: Che <zeus8@synthcom.com> >> >>

From:: Che <zeus8@synthcom.com>
To:: Intelligent Dumb Music <idm@hyperreal.org>
Date:: Sat, 3 Oct 1998 23:30:26 -0700 (PDT)
Subject:: Re: (idm) Giuiliani vs. Amon Tobin

At 06:23 PM 9/30/98 -0400, Christopher Fahey wrote:

quoted 21 lines From: Che <zeus8@synthcom.com>

>>From: Che <zeus8@synthcom.com> >> >>My guess is that your experience was more a product of venue & a "we're too >>cool to dance" NYC audience. > > Yes! Both! > > But there's one other thing: Rudolph "Dickhead" Giuliani. You see, he >has cracked down with some zoning and licensing laws from the 12th century >which pertain to where you can and cannot dance. Basically, there are only a >handful of nightclubs in NYC where, legally, you are permitted to dance. >Most people have been dancing in all kinds of places for years whenever the >groove hit them, but nowadays you can go to a bar and find the furniture >arranged inconveniently to discourage dancing so that the club owner is not >slapped with a $3000 fine. Or you may even be asked to stop dancing by a >club employee. The rippling effect of this is that spontaneous dancing in >bars is seriously curtailed throughout the city. Lameness reigns. > > (I hope all of you Americans on this list realize that every time you >vote for a Republican you are voting in favor of stopping people from >dancing. It's true.)

OH MY GOD! This is like finding out that Seinfeld & all his friends really live in a giant trailer park. Hah! All this time New Yorkers have been scamming us that they live in a cool & sophisticated city. Now we know the truth! Man, I don't know whether to laugh or feel sorry for you. This is really ill. You'd think dancing would be a protected form of expression. Someone should take this to the ACLU.

quoted 5 lines Personally, I don't understand how anyone

>>Personally, I don't understand how anyone >>could listen to this music & NOT DANCE! > > I was boogieing off-n-on until my lady showed up. We had some drinks and >puffnstuff and then we left.

I really think you should cut the Ninjas some slack, dude. If I couldn't have danced at the show I wouldn't have enjoyed it a tenth as much. Like my grandmother says, "Never trust a man that doesn't dance". Same with cities - no way in hell I'd live someplace w/ such a bullshit law.

quoted 5 lines Well, first of all I would have been the only one dancing had I chose to

> Well, first of all I would have been the only one dancing had I chose to >do so any time within the first 2 1/2 hours of the night. I like to tear it >up, but I guess I wasn't in the mood to 'break the ice.' I explored a bit, >had some drinks, returned to the main room and found that the scattered >beginnings of a decent sized dance floor had formed so I joined in.

That's NEVER bothered me, but hey, I'm a weirdo, so I'll cut ya some slack. If you weren't in the mood, so be it. When I saw Autechre in Seattle (I think in '94), I was the only person dancing (Ok, I think one other person danced for one song). My impression was that everyone else was "too cool" to dance. Or maybe they just couldn't handle anything w/ a pounding 4OTMOFOF beat. Fucking idiots. I suspect that's why Sean & Rob stormed off stage after 20 minutes looking visibly pissed.

quoted 7 lines One thing that's obvious from the tour reviews posted is that the artists

>>One thing that's obvious from the tour reviews posted is that the artists >>have played different records from show to show. No artist I saw was >>ignoring the audience, meaning that their record choice was based on >>audience feedback. That makes it better than a mix tape done in a studio > > Agreed - a DJ plays for and to the crowd. But any good DJ would do the >same.

Yeah, but I don't hear DJs spinning early Black Dog, Amon Tobin, Funki Porcini, or Squarepusher too often. I think taste should count for something.

quoted 17 lines I'm beginning to get the idea that you're into music for something besides

>>I'm beginning to get the idea that you're into music for something besides >>the music. > > > No, no, no! I was only pointing out two of the many differences between >listening to records at home ad going out to a concert... One difference is >that the artist might do something spontaneous and improvisational live, >something I would not ever be able to experience on a record. This show >strongly lacked that element, so I was (with tongue-in-cheek) hoping it >would make up for it with Difference #2, which is all the other things that >happen at nightclubs except the music (people, architecture, freaks, >drinks/drugs, visuals, food, clothes). The show didn't really even offer >that stuff to any great spectacular degree. The music is the most important >thing, but I'd be a liar if I said #2 was a non-issue to me - if the dance >floor was full of flailing longhairs with tie dyed shirts, or fist pumping >frat boys, or spastic first-time-jungle dancers, or all boys, I'd probably >sit it out too.

I'll cut you some more slack.

quoted 12 lines Amon Tobin could hire a real band to reproduce his electronic

>>> Amon Tobin could hire a real band to reproduce his electronic >>>compositions and my bet is that it would sound fucking amazing. >> >>My bet is that it would betray the music. Tobin's music is for me the >>pinnacle of postmodernist expression - to play it with a live band would be >>a grotesque expression of nostalgia (and don't think for a minute that >>recycling old music & recontextualizing is based on nostalgia). > > > It's just an idea. I think you're right about what he does: his work is >conceptually rooted in the history of *recorded* music - it's relationship >to 'live' music is like that between a ghost and a rotting corpse.

Great analogy. I think the sample he uses on that Funkungfusion track ("This song that you claim to be your own...could you hum a few bars?) is more commentary on his philosophy than just another yuck yuck sample.

quoted 10 lines How's this for another option: he rehearses for months on his powerbook

> How's this for another option: he rehearses for months on his powerbook >with a bunch of rack mounted decks and effects and samplers and all and >learns how to create some awesome live sound manipulations in real time. >Then he can go on tour and knobtwiddle for the crowds. If I were in his >shoes, I think I might have a bit of an ethical problem with the whole >concept of touring given his theoretical take on the studio nature of his >own music. (I'm trying to make some tracks at home, but I can't imagine >myself performing these in a million years, due to my lack of stage skill. I >loved that when RDJ tours he sits there and the two dancing bears do the >real show. Unlike RDJ himself, they were fun to while I was not dancing.)

It's been a dilemma w/ electronic music for a long time. I've played both ends of the spectrum - years of total improv, a few shows of millivanilling, as well as the in between, performing composed music as accurately as possible w/ a little jamming thrown in. Personally, I think they're all valid, and can be done well or poorly (don't think millivanilling can be done well? Ru Paul opened for my band in 1986, just him/her/it on roller skates w/ a (dead) mike lipsyncing to a hissy cassette. Brilliant. I knew then that Ru Paul was starbooty). I don't Amon working a keyboard & twiddling some knobs would have enhanced my enjoyment any more than him working the turntables & twiddling some mixing faders. Sure I've heard most of what he played a hundred times, but I still managed to get something new out of it (great music is like that). But hey, I'm an old fart, I've seen & done it all, so I don't need a spectacle as long as I have a good time. You sound like you need to go to a Rush show or something. ;) May I share some sage advice? Having experienced live concerts on a regular basis for over half my life, having seen & heard everything from The Fall in a small club to The Grateful Dead in a stadium, I've found that the MOST IMPORTANT requirement for enjoying a live show is to walk in with NO EXPECTATIONS. Zero. I'm not saying this was your problem, but I'd just like you to remember this next time you go out. It can make a world of difference.

quoted 8 lines Well, okay, maybe they won't play "nothing but Amon Tobin & Funki

> Well, okay, maybe they won't play "nothing but Amon Tobin & Funki >Porcini"... they might actually mix in music from other artists, maybe even >from other genres! And okay, maybe you might have to also pay $5 to get in >at some joints. But, yes, on any given night of the week there are probably >a dozen different bars open for free in which you will be able to hear >decent drum and bass for some portion of the evening. And over the course of >one week you'll find probably forty places for $5 or less that will play >nonstop drum and bass for a (illegal) dance floor.

Quite a bit different from my pissant whitebread mountain town (ok, the mountain is an hour away). But at least I COULD dance legally, if I could only find some music to listen to. :)

quoted 5 lines rock - rok (v.) - having a conventional and/or boring nature. ex: "Khakis

>>rock - rok (v.) - having a conventional and/or boring nature. ex: "Khakis >>rock". "That Rolling Stones show rocked". syn: suck. > > >I love this quote.

Thanks - it's based on my own obvervations of the kind of mainstream crap that "rocks". Che

(idm) Giuiliani vs. Amon Tobin