IDM Mailing Archive

So I have been sitting here over the past few days reading posts about the good old days and intelligent vs. unintelligent. I think it is time for some perspective. I think a major reason people are having such a hard time with the music of today is that they have fallen into the trap of listening to what is the most available and accessible. Of course the stuff that is easy to find is going to be influenced by drum and bass because drum and bass sells. Things that don't sell well are hard to find. Why? because stores won't order them. Simple economics. Also, you have to look beyond labels you have heard of. Sure warp is putting out some good stuff. Sure skam is putting out some good stuff. But the ground breaking material isn't on those labels. Check out a-musik, suction and rastermusic for example. These labels put out some weird stuff but they also put out some incredible dense melodic music. You also, have to look beyond this label of IDM. Some of the better releases can be found in genres like industrial and house. Check out glassgow underground. Sure it is house but it is jazzy and all around wonderful. But most people wouldn't know that because it has a house beat. And in this intelligent world that kind of beat can't be good. If I would have stayed in my little crafted IDM world I would never have found download, shinjuku thief, UI, surgeon and the whole basic channel thing (among others). The intelligence debate: to quote jeff mills: "there is no such thing as bad music. Point blank. There is no record the whole world would agree this is shit" That should cover that. Lastly, what is all this nonsense of peole using /// and symbols in their emails? Because vvm does it do people think it is the in thing to do? part of being clever is finding your own voice. I know I will get flamed for all this but after 1 weeks of emails that embodied the above I could handle no more. -daniel

On Sunday, 28-Jun-98, daniel wrote [about (idm) back in my day...]:

quoted 3 lines you have heard of. Sure warp is putting out some good stuff. Sure skam

>you have heard of. Sure warp is putting out some good stuff. Sure skam >is putting out some good stuff. But the ground breaking material isn't on >those labels. Check out a-musik, suction and rastermusic for example.

I highly disagree. Warp's AI comps were the shit, are the shit, and will remain THEE shit until the end of time. granted warp hasn't had many groundbreaking releases lately. Unless you call the weird microphone-hiss amplified and distorted which is MC: Pin Skeeling groundbreaking. It may be, I don't know. I don't think so though.

quoted 2 lines of IDM. Some of the better releases can be found in genres like

>of IDM. Some of the better releases can be found in genres like >industrial and house. Check out glassgow underground. Sure it is house

I disagree.. There are some great releases in the house dept.. and some may be better, worse who knows.. but I certainly wouldn't generalise that out of house vs. IDM house wins.. no way in hell.. but there is house that does rock.. The track "sensual enjoyments" on Sven Vath's new album I consider damn well brilliant, for example.

quoted 3 lines but it is jazzy and all around wonderful. But most people wouldn't know

>but it is jazzy and all around wonderful. But most people wouldn't know >that because it has a house beat. And in this intelligent world that kind >of beat can't be good. If I would have stayed in my little crafted IDM

not true. Quite a lot of Aphex stuff has a house beat.. it may be somewhat experimental, but it has a house beat.. SAW85-92 is pure house.. and Boards of Canada? a lot of the stuff therre is pure trip-hop.. just because it's put out by Skam don't get confused.. and it's wonderful stuff, and is IDM. but a lot of it is pure triphop, and I don't see anyone here holding that against it. and Mike Ink: Paroles? If that's not house I dunno what is. .auddplte <-- classic braindance music-> :P (the new CBM list? ;) __ __\ \ / /_\ \ 1cQ<->uIN \_____/ 1.3777993 "..in whatever you do, if you can't break new ground, what's the point?" - James Cameron

quoted 10 lines On Sunday, 28-Jun-98, daniel wrote [about (idm) back in my day...]:

> On Sunday, 28-Jun-98, daniel wrote [about (idm) back in my day...]: > >you have heard of. Sure warp is putting out some good stuff. Sure skam > >is putting out some good stuff. But the ground breaking material isn't on > >those labels. Check out a-musik, suction and rastermusic for example. > > I highly disagree. Warp's AI comps were the shit, are the shit, and will > remain THEE shit until the end of time. granted warp hasn't had many > groundbreaking releases lately. Unless you call the weird microphone-hiss > amplified and distorted which is MC: Pin Skeeling groundbreaking. It may be, > I don't know. I don't think so though.

I think that the point was is that, as of late, Warp hasn't been groundbreaking... one of favorite Warp releases (sort of recent) was the Phoenecia, but when it comes down to it, it's nothing new. Great release, still the same, simply wasn't really the point.

quoted 9 lines of IDM. Some of the better releases can be found in genres like

> > >of IDM. Some of the better releases can be found in genres like > >industrial and house. Check out glassgow underground. Sure it is house > > I disagree.. There are some great releases in the house dept.. and some may > be better, worse who knows.. but I certainly wouldn't generalise that out of > house vs. IDM house wins.. no way in hell.. but there is house that does > rock.. The track "sensual enjoyments" on Sven Vath's new album I consider > damn well brilliant, for example.

Again, I think the point was sort of missed... i don't think a generalizaion was being made that house is better than idm or that the genre has more releases that are better, i think that its just being pointed out that alot of people simply don't explore the other genres and thus miss quite a few great releases that happen to be labeled as house or industrial. I used to be into the industrial scene quite a bit til this aweful guitar sound took it over... but i'm damn glad i didn't miss download, scar tissue and it blew my mind when i first heard that not breathing was signed (especially blew my mind that invisble signed! hehehe small change of pace there =) Anyhow, if we look beyond what we normally label 'idm' (ie the skams, warps, etc) there's some great music that could probably hold up next to it nicely... Hell, the most recent material from the VVM camp (CV[ev]'s Chart Runners) definately finds itself far outside what we would deem 'idm' at moments.... Just my two cents.... btw - i hink all those / and \ look hella cool... course, i have too much time on my hands and hang out with six and seven year olds so.... ^brap@sonic.net^ [icq: 12645306] http://www.sonic.net/~brap/ [blackdog][v/vm][jamesbernarddiscography]...etc etc etc sfwd.dyn.ml.org [occasional web.irc.ftp.etc]]] chris g. 1547 boston court #7, santa rosa, ca 95405

On Sun, 28 Jun 1998, GamePrg. wrote:

quoted 6 lines I highly disagree. Warp's AI comps were the shit, are the shit, and will

> > I highly disagree. Warp's AI comps were the shit, are the shit, and will > remain THEE shit until the end of time. granted warp hasn't had many > groundbreaking releases lately. Unless you call the weird microphone-hiss > amplified and distorted which is MC: Pin Skeeling groundbreaking. It may be, > I don't know. I don't think so though.

I never said warp was a bad label. What I said is that there are labels right now who are doing things warp isn't and these labels have releases that are on par with those great AI comps. But, a lot of people miss these releases because they aren't on a known label. You have to look beyond the known labels.

quoted 10 lines of IDM. Some of the better releases can be found in genres like

> > >of IDM. Some of the better releases can be found in genres like > >industrial and house. Check out glassgow underground. Sure it is house > > I disagree.. There are some great releases in the house dept.. and some may > be better, worse who knows.. but I certainly wouldn't generalise that out of > house vs. IDM house wins.. no way in hell.. but there is house that does > rock.. The track "sensual enjoyments" on Sven Vath's new album I consider > damn well brilliant, for example. >

I never ever brought up house vs. idm. What I said was that people tend to label to much and totally miss out. When you look at music and say "I can't listen to that because that beat is unintelligent" you are closing your mind. There is bad house and there is bad idm. But to refuse to listen to house just because it is house is pretty ignorant. By the way you can subsitute any genre <industrial, country, rock etc> for house in the above statement.

quoted 7 lines not true. Quite a lot of Aphex stuff has a house beat.. it may be somewhat

> not true. Quite a lot of Aphex stuff has a house beat.. it may be somewhat > experimental, but it has a house beat.. SAW85-92 is pure house.. and Boards > of Canada? a lot of the stuff therre is pure trip-hop.. just because it's > put out by Skam don't get confused.. and it's wonderful stuff, and is IDM. > but a lot of it is pure triphop, and I don't see anyone here holding that > against it. >

this is not a house vs. idm thread. My point is that people close their mind and make rigid rules of what IDM is. They then follow those rules and if the music is outside of those rules they refuse to listen. These same people then complain IDM isn't any good now days. How many people on here have posted at one time or another that they won't listen to tracks with vocals? Think of all the music they have missed out upon because they won't listen to someone sing. Or what about those people who post that they won't listen to music with a guitar in it? Again they are missing out. A closed mind is never a good thing. -daniel

On Sunday, 28-Jun-98, daniel wrote [about Re: (idm) back in my day...]:

quoted 5 lines I never said warp was a bad label. What I said is that there are labels

>I never said warp was a bad label. What I said is that there are labels >right now who are doing things warp isn't and these labels have releases >that are on par with those great AI comps. But, a lot of people miss these >releases because they aren't on a known label. You have to look beyond >the known labels.

yeah, that's true.. but still I think the lesser known labels are not to be underestimated in their knownability :) like.. I think most of all idm labels have probably been discussed on this list.

quoted 7 lines I never ever brought up house vs. idm. What I said was that people tend

>I never ever brought up house vs. idm. What I said was that people tend >to label to much and totally miss out. When you look at music and say "I >can't listen to that because that beat is unintelligent" you are closing >your mind. There is bad house and there is bad idm. But to refuse to >listen to house just because it is house is pretty ignorant. By the way >you can subsitute any genre <industrial, country, rock etc> for house in >the above statement.

well.. generally house _is_ IMO unintelligent, and that's all house.. that doesn't mean it isn't any good.. I mean.. look at house, it's full of 4 bar loops of every kind.. and look at some IDM.. the melodies are longer, the drum beats more complex and individual.. it's simply a matter of music I think.. whereas house is only meant to be danced to.. not listened to, IDM is meant to be listened to, not danced to.. and vice versa.. and I think it's for this reason that people miss some of the key releases in the house, trance, etc. genres for this reason.. but again it's the unintelligent/intelligent thing, which I think just defines the type of music it is, not whether it's literally smarter or not. DJ Rap made a quote in Sonic Soul's retina saying something along the lines of "I dunno what intelligent music is, because i don't believe that I make stupid music." or something.. to me this is a bs statement.. because just because something is "intelligent" means that it's simply a different type of music.. this seems to be linked to ambient.. because somehow anything with the "intelligent" tag before it seems to be fused with ambient.. "intelligent" jungle, etc. that's the what it's all about IMO.. stuff like michael fakesch, the old AI comps (and IMO few, very few things today can even classify themselves as being as good as those comps), but the stuff is out there, and on the smaller labels, like daniel says.. I too had a high bias towards anything that is not IDM.. but just because something is good doesn't make it IDM imo.. that's adding to the reason why people keep on getting pissed when people call music "intelligent".

quoted 2 lines this is not a house vs. idm thread. My point is that people close their

>this is not a house vs. idm thread. My point is that people close their >mind and make rigid rules of what IDM is. They then follow those rules

I think IDM is a very _narrow_ type of music, and what I think may not be what other people think. but to me there's definite bounderies of what IDM is, and it's not about intelligence.. maybe it's about melody and music, as opposed to grooves, but.. not about who's smarter than who.

quoted 1 line and if the music is outside of those rules they refuse to listen. These

>and if the music is outside of those rules they refuse to listen. These

yes :)

quoted 3 lines same people then complain IDM isn't any good now days. How many people on

>same people then complain IDM isn't any good now days. How many people on >here have posted at one time or another that they won't listen to tracks >with vocals?

well.. I listen to tracks with vocals.. IMO everything deserves at least 2-4 listens.. but I must say that most of the tracks with vocals, as in lyrics, people singing have been totally lame.. some vocals I can get used to. When I first heard Richard's Hairpiece the vocals totally ruined the whole thing, but then after a few listens I got used to them, and now I love that track. but some things the vocals still ruin the track for me. Things like Jimi Tenor and The Gentle People rule of course, but I think that type of music, it's natural for there to be vocals (Lounge).. lenny kravitz, etc.. etc..

quoted 2 lines that they won't listen to music with a guitar in it? Again they are

>that they won't listen to music with a guitar in it? Again they are >missing out. A closed mind is never a good thing.

I have to say most tracks with any kinds of guitar sounds I've heard are lame.. BUT, a track by DJ Who on the cloudwatch cd uses some guitar sounds in it and it is absolutely fantastic.. and a closed mind isn't a good thing.. indeed a lot of people have a closed mind. i used to have one, but then by chance I started hearing some pretty cool stuff at clubs, etc.. in those genres.. lately i've been getting into some drum'n'bass as a result. __ __\ \ / /_\ \ 1cQ<->uIN \_____/ 1.3777993 "..in whatever you do, if you can't break new ground, what's the point?" - James Cameron

quoted 2 lines yeah, that's true.. but still I think the lesser known labels are not to

>yeah, that's true.. but still I think the lesser known labels are not to >be underestimated in their knownability :)

Exactly - if Suction and Schematic and Markant and Rastermusic and all these other labels are so "unknown," why do I have to delete so many posts about them?

quoted 1 line well.. generally house _is_ IMO unintelligent, and that's all house..

>well.. generally house _is_ IMO unintelligent, and that's all house..

And that's your loss...

quoted 3 lines that doesn't mean it isn't any good.. I mean.. look at house, it's full of

>that doesn't mean it isn't any good.. I mean.. look at house, it's full of >4 bar loops of every kind.. and look at some IDM.. the melodies are >longer, the drum beats more complex and individual..

This is a huge gross generalization that just doesn't hold up. A good house record (like the new Herbert disc I just got from Bent Crayon) is *less* repetitive and *more* complex and individual rhythmically than e.g. the Boards of Canada album everyone was blowing so much smoke about. Yes, the Herbert record's repetitive, but it's got a lot more variation within that repetition than BoC ever do.

quoted 2 lines whereas house is only meant to be danced to.. not listened to, IDM is

>whereas house is only meant to be danced to.. not listened to, IDM is >meant to be listened to, not danced to.. and vice versa..

Disagree. On both counts: oversimplifications that don't hold up in the face of intelligent house records and floor-friendly idm.

quoted 3 lines that's the what it's all about IMO.. stuff like michael fakesch, the old

>that's the what it's all about IMO.. stuff like michael fakesch, the old >AI comps (and IMO few, very few things today can even classify themselves >as being as good as those comps),

I think the canonization of the AI comps has gone far enough at this point. AI1 wasn't even the best IDM comp released in 1992 (Intergalactic Beats on Planet E gets the nod there), and AI2 is mostly an embarrassment. While 90% of everything is always shite, I'd say that for instance the last two volumes in the Freezone series (3 and 4 - haven't heard 5 yet) are every bit as good overall as AI2. We've definitely hit a dry spell lately as far as great albums go (with notable exceptions like the WHOMP-ASS~! Circadian Rhythms album), because most of the best artists have been quiet for a while (I'm talking about people like Global Communication, 4 Hero, Carl Craig as Paperclip People, Orbital, the Black Dog, and a Guy Called Gerald). Most of these people should have a new one out by year's end and I don't expect anything but greatness from any of them. (Well, the ex Deee-Lite vocals on the new Gerald worry me a bit...)

quoted 3 lines well.. I listen to tracks with vocals.. IMO everything deserves at least

>well.. I listen to tracks with vocals.. IMO everything deserves at least >2-4 listens.. but I must say that most of the tracks with vocals, as in >lyrics, people singing have been totally lame.

Disagree. Bjork's last album was one of my top three or four IDM records last year, and there are loads of other recent counterexamples (4 Hero "Loveless" and Chris Bowden/4 Hero "Hero," the vocal track on Planetary Folklore, etc.). Not to mention the new Massive Attack album which is just totally SWANK~! and has only one instrumental cut. (Melankolic - IDM 1998 label of the year easily IMO.) Oh, it's got heavy guitars on it too. You should love it.

quoted 2 lines and a closed mind isn't a good thing.. indeed a lot of people have a

>and a closed mind isn't a good thing.. indeed a lot of people have a >closed mind. i used to have one

Glad to see you don't anymore... C. -- Chris.Hilker (cspot@hyperreal.org) "What I don't understand," said Richard, "is what these people have against dictionaries. Maybe they don't even know they can't spell."

quoted 2 lines I have to say most tracks with any kinds of guitar sounds I've heard are

>I have to say most tracks with any kinds of guitar sounds I've heard are >lame..

LAME ?! No way, what about Joy Division, Frippatronics, Can, Sylvian, Ride, My Bloody Valentine, even some Sonic Youth, . . . For fucks sake, take a few listens to albums like 'Closer' , 'Tin Drum' or 'Loveless' , and what about Seefeel... they suck too ?! 'Quique' is to me one of those albums you listen all the time and never got bored. bye rob np: The Fall 'Free Range' 'Do you wanna be a beauty queen an rule the kingdom ?'

just to throw in my two cents...

quoted 3 lines the most available and accessible. Of course the stuff that is easy to

> the most available and accessible. Of course the stuff that is easy to > find is going to be influenced by drum and bass because drum and bass > sells.

does drum and bass really sell? i can't name a million selling dnb record off the top of my head. i wish drum and bass _was_ what was selling millions, and not puff daddy. of course, i think you mean compared to the usual sales/exposure of an IDM record--talvin singh's dnb stuff gets used as background mtv music while stuff on rephlex usually doesn't. however, in the overall scheme of things, dnb seems every bit as underground, or more appropriately, obscure a set as IDM. sure, the average kid these days can probably name goldie and roni size, but i personally think that's a _good_ thing for IDM, because the gaps aren't that huge.

quoted 1 line those labels. Check out a-musik, suction and rastermusic for example.

> those labels. Check out a-musik, suction and rastermusic for example.

i would, but i'd say i suffer from the same problem that most people do: the lack of exposure i have to this stuff means that it's tough for me to throw down 16 bucks on a record i haven't heard. the net has changed some of this, though...i got the boards of canada disc becuase of the samples on warpnet and a healthy dose of good recommendations by people on the net.

quoted 2 lines of beat can't be good. If I would have stayed in my little crafted IDM

> of beat can't be good. If I would have stayed in my little crafted IDM > world I would never have found download, shinjuku thief, UI, surgeon and

i wonder if anyone really stays in the idm world... it doesnt' occur to me as one you could get to without taking a winding road through other music. i'm sure this is an old thread, but i wonder what else this list listens to? in my collection, miles davis has an equal place with autechre who have an equal spot with portishead who have an equal place with public enemy and so on and on. oh, and i think you could get to UI through Uilab through stereolab, which is either a direct ally with IDM or through one more jump via tortoise. or something like that.

quoted 2 lines "there is no such thing as bad music. Point blank. There is no record the

> "there is no such thing as bad music. Point blank. There is no record the > whole world would agree this is shit"

i think there's bad music. but i'd always preface taht with "i think," because good and bad are always just that, opinions. and no one's opinion is law. it's the interaction of these opnions, the reasons why people find things good and bad, which make music and this list interesting. r-o-b

{lots and lots of narrow eared-ness}

quoted 1 line and a closed mind isn't a good thing.. indeed a lot of people have a

> and a closed mind isn't a good thing.. indeed a lot of people have a

closed

quoted 1 line mind. i used to have one, but then by chance I started hearing some

> mind. i used to have one, but then by chance I started hearing some

pretty

quoted 1 line cool stuff at clubs, etc.. in those genres.. lately i've been getting

> cool stuff at clubs, etc.. in those genres.. lately i've been getting

into

quoted 1 line some drum'n'bass as a result.

> some drum'n'bass as a result.

Wow! How do you manage to get through a day? There's music with guitars and vocals all over the shop. Does it hurt?

On Sunday, 28-Jun-98, Giles Ward wrote [about Re: (idm) back in my day...]:

quoted 2 lines Wow! How do you manage to get through a day? There's music with guitars

>Wow! How do you manage to get through a day? There's music with guitars >and vocals all over the shop. Does it hurt?

hey I like ABBA, and Metallica is cool, and they have guitars in them don't they :P but to me, you cannot use guitars to make some electronica (forgive me) in the same way you use them to make rock'n'roll or what have you.. that's just my opinion, and therefore I think it sounds bad when it's done. I have nothing against the guitar as an instrument. __ __\ \ / /_\ \ 1cQ<->uIN \_____/ 1.3777993 "..in whatever you do, if you can't break new ground, what's the point?" - James Cameron

quoted 1 line On Sunday, 28-Jun-98, Giles Ward wrote [about Re: (idm) back in my

> On Sunday, 28-Jun-98, Giles Ward wrote [about Re: (idm) back in my

day...]:

quoted 1 line Wow! How do you manage to get through a day? There's music with

> >Wow! How do you manage to get through a day? There's music with

guitars

quoted 3 lines and vocals all over the shop. Does it hurt?

> >and vocals all over the shop. Does it hurt? > > hey I like ABBA, and Metallica is cool, and they have guitars in them

don't

quoted 1 line they :P

> they :P

Yup

quoted 1 line but to me, you cannot use guitars to make some electronica (forgive me)

> but to me, you cannot use guitars to make some electronica (forgive me)

in

quoted 1 line the same way you use them to make rock'n'roll or what have you..

> the same way you use them to make rock'n'roll or what have you..

Hmm.. I bet you already own some records which you don't know have guitars on them.

quoted 1 line that's just my opinion, and therefore I think it sounds bad when it's

> that's just my opinion, and therefore I think it sounds bad when it's

done. Well. I probably agree with you if you're referring to the nasty dated mash you get from the likes of Garbage, but there's no need to write off the guitar as unsuitable for generating new sound.

quoted 1 line I have nothing against the guitar as an instrument.

> I have nothing against the guitar as an instrument.

I do! I hate the buggers!

On Sunday, 28-Jun-98, Giles Ward wrote [about Re: (idm) back in my day...]:

quoted 2 lines Hmm.. I bet you already own some records which you don't know have guitars

>Hmm.. I bet you already own some records which you don't know have guitars >on them.

Perhaps.. but they aren't just strummin' away on them like some rock'n'roll or pop song, or i'd notice them in a flash.. I dunno it's just that sound like takes some of the electronic quality out of it, i dunno.. now of course I'm not talking about bass guitars, etc.. like acoustic or electric guitars just played live like. hard to pinpoint with words the exact sound I'm talking about.

quoted 3 lines Well. I probably agree with you if you're referring to the nasty dated

>Well. I probably agree with you if you're referring to the nasty dated >mash you get from the likes of Garbage, but there's no need to write off >the guitar as unsuitable for generating new sound.

no way man.. I never said wrote it off.. just certain "uses" of it that are not customary on here. IDM is not guitar music. (that I think whether or not IDM has guitars in it or not can be agreed on unanimously?) I mean, guitar music is total guitar strumming and stuff :) The guitar can be used quite well I would imagine, because nothing else sounds quite like a guitar, because you pluck the strings, and other things you do.. but just strumming the guitar is like taking a 303 and playing a riff without ever twiddling knobs. __ __\ \ / /_\ \ 1cQ<->uIN \_____/ 1.3777993 "..in whatever you do, if you can't break new ground, what's the point?" - James Cameron

----------

quoted 8 lines From: Giles Ward <gilesw@globalnet.co.uk>

> From: Giles Ward <gilesw@globalnet.co.uk> > To: aeq@access.digex.net > Subject: Re: (idm) back in my day... > Date: 29 June 1998 01:14 > > > no way man.. I never said wrote it off.. just certain "uses" of it that > are > > not customary on here. IDM is not guitar music. (that I think whether

or

quoted 17 lines not

> not > > IDM has guitars in it or not can be agreed on unanimously?) I mean, > guitar > > music is total guitar strumming and stuff :) > > Has IDM got guitars in it? Depends on the track I suppose. I think this > brings us back to "what is IDM?" > > > The guitar can be used quite well I would imagine, because nothing else > > sounds quite like a guitar, because you pluck the strings, and other > things > > you do.. > > > > but just strumming the guitar is like taking a 303 and playing a riff > > without ever twiddling knobs. > > Or taking a 303 and twiddling the knobs.... Go strum a 303 music makers!

On Sun, 28 Jun 1998 19:55:54 EST4EDT "GamePrg." <aeq@access.digex.net> writes:

quoted 11 lines Perhaps.. but they aren't just strummin' away on them like some

>Perhaps.. but they aren't just strummin' away on them like some >rock'n'roll >or pop song, or i'd notice them in a flash.. I dunno it's just that >sound >like takes some of the electronic quality out of it, i dunno.. > >now of course I'm not talking about bass guitars, etc.. like acoustic >or >electric guitars just played live like. hard to pinpoint with words >the >exact sound I'm talking about.

Riffs, game, you hate guitar riffs. john ______________________________________ Incomplete without surface noise - Ae All those deficiencies, satisfied in dreams - haujobb. haujobb. Mailing List: usa-haujobb@juno.com to svbscribe

On Mon, 29 Jun 1998 01:15:04 +0100 "Giles Ward" <gilesw@globalnet.co.uk> writes:

quoted 3 lines Has IDM got guitars in it? Depends on the track I suppose. I think

>> Has IDM got guitars in it? Depends on the track I suppose. I think >this >> brings us back to "what is IDM?"

Seefeel is the only one I know of. . . john ______________________________________ Incomplete without surface noise - Ae All those deficiencies, satisfied in dreams - haujobb. haujobb. Mailing List: usa-haujobb@juno.com to svbscribe

quoted 1 line Seefeel is the only one I know of. . .

>Seefeel is the only one I know of. . .

I don't even see them as IDM. Funny, I just always call the music I listen to "electronic" music and thats it.....

On Sun, 28 Jun 1998, john r. jacobus wrote:

quoted 8 lines On Mon, 29 Jun 1998 01:15:04 +0100 "Giles Ward" <gilesw@globalnet.co.uk>

> On Mon, 29 Jun 1998 01:15:04 +0100 "Giles Ward" <gilesw@globalnet.co.uk> > writes: > > >> Has IDM got guitars in it? Depends on the track I suppose. I think > >this > >> brings us back to "what is IDM?" > > Seefeel is the only one I know of. . .

Some Andrew Weatherall remixes of My Bloody Valentine and other (Creation label) stuff sometimes would have idm-ish moments. They are mostly great grooves with odd percussion, but don't syncopate quite enough to really get the retroactively labelled "idm". By the way, for those concerned about the "intelligent" part of idm, why not call it "sdm", for "syncopated dance music". for instance, one track on the new Bola 7" on SKam is prominently a syncopated breakbeat, or, that is, breaks cut up not around each of 4 bars. Solenoid solenoid@europa.com <------+

quoted 7 lines Well. I probably agree with you if you're referring to the nasty dated

>Well. I probably agree with you if you're referring to the nasty dated >mash you get from the likes of Garbage, but there's no need to write off >the guitar as unsuitable for generating new sound. > >> I have nothing against the guitar as an instrument. > >I do! I hate the buggers!

May I ask why? I have been playing guitar for a while now and true its having a hard time fitting within the confines of idm. I've been experimenting, as have a few people I know, and the results range from surf jungle combo to a complete ambient mess. Squarepusher fit's a very Jaco Pastorious sound and style into feed me weird things, so I don't see why the same couldn't be done with other instruments. I firmly believe that within the hands of a talented muscian the guitar could be made to fit. I just heard Pat Metheny playing over jungle beats. Although i've never been a fan of Pat, he's coming closer to bridging the gap between guitar and idm or whatever the hell you want to call it. I think part of the problem revolves around the fact that weird sounds are sometimes seen as being more important than melodies and chord structures. Not to say that these are the only important things. I'm just rambling now... To surmise... I _hate_ to hear people put down any instrument, its stupid and close minded. <Jon>m

Um.. sorry Jon I was taking the piss a bit. I don't hate guitars at all. Some-one recently mentioned people having 'rules' about any new music they hear.. (guitar... must be crap!), (vocals... must be crap!). Maybe they have heard a lot of crap guitar/vocal stuff but I bet they've also heard a shit-load of crap electronic stuff. Personally I love listening to guitar stuff which uses alternate tunings (Sonic Youth, Polvo etc.) The textures they get from dissonance and feedback etc. are often coming from the same direction as the most experimental electronic things I get to hear. I wrote:

quoted 6 lines ----------

> ---------- > > > >> I have nothing against the guitar as an instrument. > > > >I do! I hate the buggers! >

And Jon responded:

quoted 29 lines May I ask why?

> May I ask why? > > I have been playing guitar for a while now and true its having a hard time > fitting within the confines of idm. I've been experimenting, as have a > few > people I know, and the results range from surf jungle combo to a complete > ambient mess. Squarepusher fit's a very Jaco Pastorious sound and style > into feed me weird things, so I don't see why the same couldn't be done > with other instruments. I firmly believe that within the hands of a > talented muscian the guitar could be made to fit. I just heard Pat > Metheny > playing over jungle beats. Although i've never been a fan of Pat, he's > coming closer to bridging the gap between guitar and idm or whatever the > hell you want to call it. > > I think part of the problem revolves around the fact that weird sounds are > sometimes seen as being more important than melodies and chord structures. > Not to say that these are the only important things. I'm just rambling > now... > > To surmise... I _hate_ to hear people put down any instrument, its stupid > and close minded. > > <Jon>m > > > > >

quoted 2 lines To surmise... I _hate_ to hear people put down any instrument, its

> To surmise... I _hate_ to hear people put down any instrument, its > stupid and close minded.

About as stupid as completely misinterpreting a sarcastic statement that was quite clear given the context of the rest of the message? bbn

At 01:08 PM 6/28/98 -0500, daniel wrote:

quoted 9 lines this is not a house vs. idm thread. My point is that people close their

>this is not a house vs. idm thread. My point is that people close their >mind and make rigid rules of what IDM is. They then follow those rules >and if the music is outside of those rules they refuse to listen. These >same people then complain IDM isn't any good now days. How many people on >here have posted at one time or another that they won't listen to tracks >with vocals? Think of all the music they have missed out upon because >they won't listen to someone sing. Or what about those people who post >that they won't listen to music with a guitar in it? Again they are >missing out. A closed mind is never a good thing.

I detest the taste of meat. Didn't like it as a kid, don't like it now. It tastes strongly of acid to me (mmm...mmm must be the uric acid, the major flavor component of both meat & urine). Would you say that by not eating something I don't like that I have a closed mind? That I'm missing out? I hope not. Similarly, I usually don't like the sound of vocals or guitars. It's a matter of taste, not of having a closed mind. I do like Bjork's voice, I like Robert Fripp's guitar playing, so there are exceptions to the rule. However, I find that the percentage of vocal and guitar music that I do like is so exceedingly small, that it's just not worth my time to seek out the little that I might like. There's more electronic music that I like than I can keep up with, so it's a question of priorities, not of closed-mindedness. Che

Note: I can't retrieve my mail for the time being (but I can send) so I may not see any replies to this for a while.

quoted 4 lines And that's your loss...

>>And that's your loss... > >no it's not.. I like a lot of house.. I just said it's not IDM, as in the >genre _IDM_.. or what I believe it to be anyway.

Tell me more about this "genre _IDM_" (as opposed to the self-explanatory "intelligent dance music" or simply "music discussed on this list").

quoted 11 lines This is a huge gross generalization that just doesn't hold up. A good house

>>This is a huge gross generalization that just doesn't hold up. A good house >>record (like the new Herbert disc I just got from Bent Crayon) is *less* >>repetitive and *more* complex and individual rhythmically than e.g. the >>Boards of Canada album everyone was blowing so much smoke about. Yes, the >>Herbert record's repetitive, but it's got a lot more variation within that >>repetition than BoC ever do. > >no way man.. all house has the same beats over and over.. they are what is >defined has HOUSE beats.. and this just reinforces what daniel said about >ppl not liking house "Just because it's got a house beat." A lot of ppl are >annoyed by that beat.

"People don't like it" can't possibly be tantamount to "it isn't IDM" if you contend that IDM is an actual genre apart from other forms of dance music, as you do. I can name quite a few people on this list who hate the Aphex Twin but that doesn't mean he doesn't make IDM records. As for your contention that "all house has the same beats over and over," I've put up some MP3 files at ftp://ftp.netcom.com/pub/cs/cspot/ with excerpts from the first three tracks on the Herbert record I mentioned - the first ten seconds of each minute after the first. The variations in the rhythms are subtle, but they're there. And anyway, what's the connection between repetition and (musical) intelligence? Lots of IDM is highly repetitive, like Panasonic, Chain Reaction stuff, etc. Are you saying that's not IDM either? Or are they doing something that can't be done in a house context? (Think hard before you answer that one in the affirmative.)

quoted 3 lines and like I said before, BoC album is pure triphop, so the beats are very

>and like I said before, BoC album is pure triphop, so the beats are very >repetative and simple. but it's good none the less, and a lot of it to me is >damn well brilliant.

So triphop is allowed to be IDM if the beats are repetitive and simple but house can't be IDM even when it's less so?

quoted 4 lines Disagree. On both counts: oversimplifications that don't hold up in the

>>Disagree. On both counts: oversimplifications that don't hold up in the >>face of intelligent house records and floor-friendly idm. > >What about the definition of IDM that Alan set? is that not true?

Please quote the relevant passages. I'm not sure what you're referring to.

quoted 4 lines anyway.. I

>anyway.. I >am sorry if you disagree, but I believe that the majority of >house/trance/breaks/goa artists make tracks simply so they will move >people's asses on the dance floor.

I don't deny this at all. But there's a huge leap in logic between saying that the majority of a genre's records are simply functional dancefloor music and saying that no records from that genre can ever be IDM. If you said: No electro record can ever be IDM No drum & bass record can ever be IDM No triphop record can ever be IDM No lounge record can ever be IDM You'd get laughed off the list. What's so different about house that you can't imagine someone doing something intelligent with it? (The same goes for the other genres you mentioned, of course, but I haven't heard any records in those genres that I'd consider IDM. I have heard such house records.) The Aphex Twin made a *Prodigy* record last year and people accepted it as IDM. If *he* makes a house record, will that be IDM? C. -- Chris.Hilker (cspot@hyperreal.org) "What I don't understand," said Richard, "is what these people have against dictionaries. Maybe they don't even know they can't spell."

quoted 4 lines no way man.. all house has the same beats over and over.. they are what

>no way man.. all house has the same beats over and over.. they are what >is defined has HOUSE beats.. and this just reinforces what daniel said >about ppl not liking house "Just because it's got a house beat." A lot of >ppl are annoyed by that beat.

actually it doesn't reinforce anything. I think the point was lost here. I wish I had used another genre instead of house now. My point was that people refuse to listen to types of music because of the genre it is in. That is, they say that they don't like it without ever hearing it. So what we have is all these people who say genre X sucks but they haven't heard it. It is like those people who say electronic music isn't any good but have never heard it <and when you hear that you get mad>. This goes for any genre. Let's take country music. For the most part I do not enjoy it. However, if I had just generalized that all country music is bad I wouldn't have heard Johnny Cash or Hank Williams. Say what you will but those two are true pioneers in the field of music <please do not start a thread about that!>. So if you close your mind and say genre X isn't any good <without hearing it first!> you will miss out. Next, we have the person who says just because I don't like something doesn't mean I am missing out. I beleive they used the example that they don't like meat. But what they failed to realize is that they had tried meat and came to that conclusion. Many people never try a form of music but yet they still condemn it. If you do not try something you are not in a position to criticize it. Of course there are extremes that are not covered by that <such as social problems> statement. Those are my last and final thoughts on the subject. Many thanks to all those out there who post reviews and discuss all facets of music <you know who you are>. -daniel n.p. EBI - Zen

quoted 3 lines I have noticed this as a fundamentlal problem with email as of late.

> I have noticed this as a fundamentlal problem with email as of late. > That email breeds ill communication. An imperfect medium for the > english language. When words mean different things based on context

and

quoted 1 line tone, text will not do.

> tone, text will not do.

That's untrue. Words can be as rich as anything else - it's simply that very few people have the necessary reading and writing skills, or are lazy. Oh, the third possibility: that they're stupid. Sometimes I wonder what the distribution amongst those three would be. bbn