IDM Mailing Archive

quoted 1 line "Bucephalus Bouncing Ball". Kind of gimmicky what with the bouncing

> "Bucephalus Bouncing Ball". Kind of gimmicky what with the bouncing

ball-like

quoted 1 line effects. Mostly a rhythmic exercise with a bit of wobbly synth

> effects. Mostly a rhythmic exercise with a bit of wobbly synth

melody tacked on.

quoted 1 line Autechre used a ball-like sound to much better effect on

> Autechre used a ball-like sound to much better effect on

"Cichlisuite". Sounds a lot

quoted 1 line like that "Spotlight" remix on the Wagon Christ 'Redone EP'.

> like that "Spotlight" remix on the Wagon Christ 'Redone EP'.

if i remember rightly (ive only listened to cichlisuite the once in a shop) it sounded like two wine glasses being knocked together on the Autechre record.... i thought that was a good sample.... unfortunately one good sample doesnt make a good record....If someone could of played me Cichlisuite minutes after first hearing Incunabula circa 1992 id of probably replied.... yeah sounds quite nice... but not much of a progression is it?.... nuff said. Steve /k/./F/ p.s. apparently Come To Daddy (mummy mix) went down a treat when the Spymania boys played it in Vienna...

quoted 1 line "Bucephalus Bouncing Ball". Kind of gimmicky what with the bouncing

> "Bucephalus Bouncing Ball". Kind of gimmicky what with the bouncing

ball-like

quoted 1 line effects. Mostly a rhythmic exercise with a bit of wobbly synth

> effects. Mostly a rhythmic exercise with a bit of wobbly synth

melody tacked on.

quoted 1 line Autechre used a ball-like sound to much better effect on

> Autechre used a ball-like sound to much better effect on

"Cichlisuite". Sounds a lot

quoted 1 line like that "Spotlight" remix on the Wagon Christ 'Redone EP'.

> like that "Spotlight" remix on the Wagon Christ 'Redone EP'.

if i remember rightly (ive only listened to cichlisuite the once in a shop) it sounded like two wine glasses being knocked together on the Autechre record.... i thought that was a good sample.... unfortunately one good sample doesnt make a good record....If someone could of played me Cichlisuite minutes after first hearing Incunabula circa 1992 id of probably replied.... yeah sounds quite nice... but not much of a progression is it?.... nuff said. Steve /k/./F/ p.s. apparently Come To Daddy (mummy mix) went down a treat when the Spymania boys played it in Vienna...

Steve ??? <kung.funk@virgin.net> wrote:

quoted 3 lines If someone could of played me Cichlisuite minutes after first

>If someone could of played me Cichlisuite minutes after first >hearing Incunabula circa 1992 id of probably replied.... yeah >sounds quite nice... but not much of a progression is it?....

I am pretty much supprised to hear that. If you ask me, Autechre is one of the few IDM/Electronic Listing Music Band, which developped a lot during the nineties. As you wrote:

quoted 1 line ive only listened to cichlisuite the once in a shop

>ive only listened to cichlisuite the once in a shop

Perhaps it might be recommended to take a closer at new Ae Stuff. Welcome in the IDM-house! Ulf -- Ulf Heyden heyden@tu-harburg.d400.de http://www.tu-harburg.de/~sbuh1307 PGP key available on public keyservers or on request via email - USE NETSCAPE!

quoted 10 lines If someone could of played

> > If someone could of played > > me Cichlisuite minutes after first hearing Incunabula circa 1992 id > of > > probably replied.... yeah sounds quite nice... but not much of a > > progression is it?.... > > Interesting that you think so. I believe that autechre have > progressed > immensly over the years, though they have continued to exploit music > within some rather small boundries.

id first like to point out that IMO Autechre are good at what they do... i dont simply detest them like for example Orbital... Chiastic Slide is undeniably a progression from Incunabula.... albeit not a huge one.. however i think Cichlisuite sounds very lazy compared to the recent album.... it sounds as if they 'banged it out' without much emotion or thought... ..i cant be the only one who thinks this?.. Steve /k/./F/

On Thu, 16 Oct 1997, .... wrote:

quoted 3 lines id first like to point out that IMO Autechre are good at what they do...

> id first like to point out that IMO Autechre are good at what they do... > > i dont simply detest them like for example Orbital...

Why do you detest Orbital? -Michael

someone wrote:

quoted 4 lines Interesting that you think so. I believe that autechre have

> Interesting that you think so. I believe that autechre have > progressed > immensly over the years, though they have continued to exploit music > within some rather small boundries.

Funny you guys are talking about this cuz a DJ friend of mine and I were discussing Ae tonite while we waited for UBERZONE to come on stage. He and I concluded that Ae are way ahead many others in the game. We get blown away with each release, but Ae and other IDM artists need to come up with a new formula. Seems to me, that RDJ created the IDM formula with SAW#1: a. Focus you attention on wicked beats (Ae are masters at this!) b. make the beats distorted to get even more wicked (RDJ gets the credit b/x he was distorting beats back when Ae was using a dry 606/808 on Incunabula) actually distorto beats should be credited to the industrial artists from back in the day.... c. add some small little melody/synth line on top (Ae does this plenty, esp on Chicli Suite/Chiastic Slide) RDJ has too many tracks to mention that do this. BOCHUM WELT is 100% guilty. d. Loop it, let it run forever (Ae no doubt) e. cut out loop A here, cut out loop B there, bring back loop a, etc. pretty obvious stuff. f. Wah-la you have your self an IDM track. I don't know how to make the wicked sounds that Ae and the like do, but all these minimal IDM artists do follow a standard formula. I am not saying it's bad, I love it, but it is a constant formula. Of course it's better than 4on the floor dance caca, but when it becomes to obvious I crave more. This maybe why I like Atom Hearts crazy RI releases. Too me that guy lacks all music structure (which is awesome) He doesn't care what gets thrown in, but he programs like a mad man:) Atom Heart is definitely a step above many...... get Brown for a good start where Atom Heart makes no sense -0

On Fri, 17 Oct 1997, -0 wrote:

quoted 2 lines a. Focus you attention on wicked beats (Ae are masters at this!)

> > a. Focus you attention on wicked beats (Ae are masters at this!)

SAWII?

quoted 4 lines b. make the beats distorted to get even more wicked (RDJ gets the

> b. make the beats distorted to get even more wicked (RDJ gets the > credit b/x he was distorting beats back when Ae was using a dry > 606/808 on Incunabula) actually distorto beats should be credited to > the industrial artists from back in the day....

So what about the current electro rejuvenation? Everyone's using a dry 808 these days.

quoted 4 lines c. add some small little melody/synth line on top (Ae does this

> > c. add some small little melody/synth line on top (Ae does this > plenty, esp on Chicli Suite/Chiastic Slide) RDJ has too many tracks to > mention that do this. BOCHUM WELT is 100% guilty.

Squarepusher often forgets about this completely.

quoted 1 line d. Loop it, let it run forever (Ae no doubt)

> d. Loop it, let it run forever (Ae no doubt)

True unfortunately.

quoted 2 lines e. cut out loop A here, cut out loop B there, bring back loop a, etc.

> e. cut out loop A here, cut out loop B there, bring back loop a, etc. > pretty obvious stuff.

Only obvious after dub came along.

quoted 3 lines I don't know how to make the wicked sounds that Ae and the like do,

> > I don't know how to make the wicked sounds that Ae and the like do, > but all these minimal IDM artists do follow a standard formula.

except for The Black Dog, B12, Scala (not really minimal IDM I guess), Mouse on Mars, Plug (the EP's at least), FSOL, Elfish Echo, Bisk, Funki Porcini...and that's just trying to stick to the 'mainstream.' I don't mean to nitpick, but there's already enough people off the list who think that techno is a bunch of computers making a whole crapload of music that all sounds the same. :) -arjun

On Fri, 17 Oct 1997, Arjun Mendiratta <arjun@frappe.ugcs.caltech.edu> wrote:

quoted 3 lines except for The Black Dog, B12, Scala (not really minimal IDM I guess),

>except for The Black Dog, B12, Scala (not really minimal IDM I guess), >Mouse on Mars, Plug (the EP's at least), FSOL, Elfish Echo, Bisk, Funki >Porcini...and that's just trying to stick to the 'mainstream.'

minimal? Elfish Echo? Bisk? Mouse on Mars? Funki Porcini? PLUG!? minimal... ?! sorry - that's a weird definition for 'minimal'. if anything, these artists - with their tightly-packed zigzagging breakbeats and tasty overload of elements - are creating 'maximal' electronic music. GuerillaG2-G4/ gg np: Celeste - Principe De Giorno

At 02:58 AM 10/17/97 +0000, -0 wrote:

quoted 8 lines I don't know how to make the wicked sounds that Ae and the like do,

>I don't know how to make the wicked sounds that Ae and the like do, >but all these minimal IDM artists do follow a standard formula. I am >not saying it's bad, I love it, but it is a constant formula. Of >course it's better than 4on the floor dance caca, but when it becomes >to obvious I crave more. This maybe why I like Atom Hearts crazy RI >releases. Too me that guy lacks all music structure (which is awesome) >He doesn't care what gets thrown in, but he programs like a mad man:) >Atom Heart is definitely a step above many......

something i've always found a bit curious. people are always so quick to attack "4 on the floor dance caca" but i've found that 75% of the IDM tracks heralded as "brilliant" by list members are undeniably done in 4/4 time. oh well. ------------------------------------------------- wells oliver : s0ewoliv@titan.vcu.edu "perhaps all pleasure is relief" : w.s.b. -------------------------------------------------

wells wrote:

quoted 6 lines something i've always found a bit curious. people are always so quick to

> > something i've always found a bit curious. people are always so quick to > attack "4 on the floor dance caca" but i've found that 75% of the IDM > tracks heralded as "brilliant" by list members are undeniably done in 4/4 > time. >

good point! but the even more BRILLIANT stuff is 'sometimes' it's done in odd time sigs. I read recently that some track on Chichli Suite is in 12/8 or 3/4 depending on how you prefer to count. So maybe it's a 'leeedle' progress, who knows. I think there's a Pentatonik track on Anthology with some odd signature, and I'm sure Black Dog fiddles aroud with them, as do other artists.... I don't think that those of us who attack 4on the floor do so b/c of 4/4 time signature. Almost all of modern popular music since the begining "the rock era" has been based on 4/4 time. What I have a problem with is boom boom boom boom. (or boom chix boom chix boom chix boom chix- can't leave out that 909 hi hat;) -0 np: Luke Slater-Freek Funk (it's got some 4xFloor)

On Friday, 17-Oct-97, -0 wrote [about Re: (idm) Cichlisuite (Come To Daddy)]:

quoted 6 lines good point! but the even more BRILLIANT stuff is 'sometimes' it's done

>good point! but the even more BRILLIANT stuff is 'sometimes' it's done >in odd time sigs. I read recently that some track on Chichli Suite is >in 12/8 or 3/4 depending on how you prefer to count. So maybe it's a >'leeedle' progress, who knows. I think there's a Pentatonik track on >Anthology with some odd signature, and I'm sure Black Dog fiddles >aroud with them, as do other artists....

quoted 5 lines I don't think that those of us who attack 4on the floor do so b/c of

>I don't think that those of us who attack 4on the floor do so b/c of >4/4 time signature. Almost all of modern popular music since the >begining "the rock era" has been based on 4/4 time. What I have a >problem with is boom boom boom boom. (or boom chix boom chix boom chix >boom chix- can't leave out that 909 hi hat;)

well.. actually I think even he didn't attack it because of the time signature, but because the only drums you hear are played on the beat. boom boom boom boom | boom clap boom clap .. heh it's funny but in my theory class at least, if you write stuff like this when you have to write rhythms you'll fail the class :) i mean, come to daddy little lord faulteroy mix is in 4/4, but it certainly has a lot more complex rhythms besides just the 4 beats in a measure. __ __\ \ / /_\ \ \_____/ www.freq-div.home.ml.org

quoted 3 lines something i've always found a bit curious. people are always so quick to

> >something i've always found a bit curious. people are always so quick to > >attack "4 on the floor dance caca" but i've found that 75% of the IDM > >tracks heralded as "brilliant" by list members are undeniably done in

4/4

quoted 5 lines time.

> >time. > > Uh? You can have four-to-the-floor in 3/4 time if you want....four to > the floor and "4/4" don't mean the same thing......one's a drummer's > term and the other's a time signature...

erm.. surely it'd be three-to-the-floor in 3/4 time? more to the point, why do the rhythmic elements in supposedly innovative tracks have to use the equivalent of kick drum, snare, hi-hats etc. ? Given a sampler, why do 99% of artists restrict themselves to imitating real world forms of percussive instrumentation? It's like getting one of those expensive new modelling synths and wanting a piano sound out of it. Giles

On Fri, 17 Oct 1997, Giles Ward wrote:

quoted 7 lines erm.. surely it'd be three-to-the-floor in 3/4 time? more to the point,

> > erm.. surely it'd be three-to-the-floor in 3/4 time? more to the point, > why do the rhythmic elements in supposedly innovative tracks have to use > the equivalent of kick drum, snare, hi-hats etc. ? Given a sampler, why do > 99% of artists restrict themselves to imitating real world forms of > percussive instrumentation? It's like getting one of those expensive new > modelling synths and wanting a piano sound out of it.

I always wondered this point. But morover I've come to believe that there is a certain vocabulary of techno. Not that producers have to stick to the vocabulary, but it's a starting point. Take yer average trance track for instance and you have the 909/808 drums, 303-esque acid line, some kind of pad sound, etc... Same can go for just about every kind of IDM. It's the tracks that push the timbral envelope that get the most attention. But don't forget, besides timbre, there's also rhythm and harmonic elements as well. So, one need only innovate in one of the three areas to compose something different.

quoted 3 lines Giles

> > Giles >

__ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ gil yaker / orbital@hazmat.com

In message <199710172032.VAA01761@sand.global.net.uk>, Giles Ward <gilesw@globalnet.co.uk> writes

quoted 5 lines Uh? You can have four-to-the-floor in 3/4 time if you want....four to

>> Uh? You can have four-to-the-floor in 3/4 time if you want....four to >> the floor and "4/4" don't mean the same thing......one's a drummer's >> term and the other's a time signature... > >erm.. surely it'd be three-to-the-floor in 3/4 time? more to the point,

Ok...well...maybe :) I chose a bad example there....well, alright then, you can have a 3/4 melody but the rhythm section can still be doing a four to the floor coz it all just wraps around back to the beginning in the end anyway doesn't it....just takes 3 bars of music instead of 4... -- Ben Coffer Hybrid Productions http://www.hybridgame.demon.co.uk/

On 19 Oct 97, Ben Coffer wrote:

quoted 5 lines Ok...well...maybe :) I chose a bad example there....well, alright

> Ok...well...maybe :) I chose a bad example there....well, alright > then, you can have a 3/4 melody but the rhythm section can still be > doing a four to the floor coz it all just wraps around back to the > beginning in the end anyway doesn't it....just takes 3 bars of music > instead of 4...

Oops, no - - - hang on! 3/4 time = waltz. Think *1*, 2, 3 / *1*, 2, 3 (boom chick chick) 4/4 time on the other hand is a whole variety of things: Generally *1*, 2, 3, 4 or 1, 2, *3*, 4 or *1*, 2, *3*, 4 or, obviously with the 4 on the floor we all _love_ every beat is equally valued, ie *1*, *2*, *3*, *4* BOOM BOOM BOOM BOOM Reggae / dub might give you : 1, 2, 3, 4 *and*/ or 1, *2*, 3, 4 Argh - blah - this is hard to explain :-) but I just have a slight hiccup visualising a 3/4 melody as you suggest, with the 4x4 drum pattern bashing on in the background, "wrapping around" ... how was that again ? ... Spent too long studying music ... I * "Incomplete without surface noise" - Autechre

On Mon, 20 Oct 1997, Irene McC wrote:

quoted 9 lines Oops, no - - - hang on!

> Oops, no - - - hang on! > > 3/4 time = waltz. Think *1*, 2, 3 / *1*, 2, 3 > (boom chick chick) > 4/4 time on the other hand is a whole variety of things: > Generally *1*, 2, 3, 4 or 1, 2, *3*, 4 or *1*, 2, *3*, 4 > or, obviously with the 4 on the floor we all _love_ every beat is > equally valued, ie *1*, *2*, *3*, *4* BOOM BOOM BOOM BOOM > Reggae / dub might give you : 1, 2, 3, 4 *and*/ or 1, *2*, 3, 4

Cool! Glad someone finally brought this up. I seem to recall a few black dog tracks written in 3/4 or 6/8 but with them, like you mentioned, the emphasis is usually on the first beat. That group The Young Gods always messed with crazy time signatures like 9/8 or 12/4 great stuff. But this brings up a good point. Locally I've always seen (and been a part of) heated discussions about the Nature of drum and bass. I usually belong to the (solitary) school that posits D'n'B is really the same as techno. As in, the are many more similarities between the dance opposites, than most people realize or think, or would like to believe. So my final theory on the differences between the two stryles was that with techno you have the emphasis on each beat, and being a little less concise, the emphasis is on the 1 and the 3. But the emphasis in D'n'B seems to always be on the 2 and the 4, hence the funky, syncopated nature, since the producers are playing off the beats that we naturally don't expect the emphasis to fall upon. __ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ gil yaker / orbital@hazmat.com

On Monday, 20-Oct-97, Gil Yaker wrote [about Re: (idm) time sigs]:

quoted 4 lines Cool! Glad someone finally brought this up. I seem to recall a few black

>Cool! Glad someone finally brought this up. I seem to recall a few black >dog tracks written in 3/4 or 6/8 but with them, like you mentioned, the >emphasis is usually on the first beat. That group The Young Gods always >messed with crazy time signatures like 9/8 or 12/4 great stuff.

right, but 6/8 is a totally different meter from 3/4, it's not 3/4 x2 = 6/8 :) it's not the same type. __ __\ \ / /_\ \ \_____/ www.freq-div.home.ml.org

In message <E0xNI63-0005LP-00@relay01.iafrica.com>, Irene McC <tullym@iafrica.com> writes

quoted 7 lines Argh - blah - this is hard to explain :-) but I just have a slight

>Argh - blah - this is hard to explain :-) but I just have a slight >hiccup visualising a 3/4 melody as you suggest, with the 4x4 drum >pattern bashing on in the background, "wrapping around" ... how was >that again ? > >... Spent too long studying music ... >

Ok, i admit to knowing nothing about music, having never studied it... but i do know what 3/4 sounds like and 4/4.....Let me think of an example....how about "carcerus ex novum" by Xepher on Black Dog's bytes album...he (who?) is using a 4/4 breakbeat with a 3/4 tune.... and it does indeed "wrap around" (crap phrase huh?)...i think what i mean by wrap around is that beat number 1 of a 4/4 bar lines up with beat number 1 of a 3/4 bar...and it *does* in the end...after 3 bars of music i guess...i'd have to hear the tune again to be sure... look, *I* know what i mean ok??? :) -- Ben Coffer Hybrid Productions http://www.hybridgame.demon.co.uk/

as for contrasting time signatures, my favorite example has to be "The One After 909" on BROWN (another one of that seemingly infinite stream of Rather Interesting releases by atom heart). this starts with james brown shouting "1, 2, 3" in the left speaker and another guy counting "1, 2, 3, 4, 5" in the right speaker. both samples are looped. a whole other melody starts up in the middle, probably in 4 but i never bothered to count it. actually it might be in 15, which would be pretty funny (the whole 3 against 5 thing comes into sync every 15 beats, of course). the whole thing is pretty damn trippy and a rather graphic demonstration of polyrhythm in action. not a bad tune, either. :) 1 2 3 1 2 3 1 2 3 1 2 3 1 2 3 1 2 3 4 5 1 2 3 4 5 1 2 3 4 5 -- Jon Drukman jsd@gamespot.com SpotMedia Communications ...I was an infinitely hot and dense dot...

At 09:45 PM 10/20/97 +0100, Ben Coffer wrote:

quoted 9 lines Ok, i admit to knowing nothing about music, having never studied it...

>Ok, i admit to knowing nothing about music, having never studied it... >but i do know what 3/4 sounds like and 4/4.....Let me think of an >example....how about "carcerus ex novum" by Xepher on Black Dog's >bytes album...he (who?) is using a 4/4 breakbeat with a 3/4 tune.... >and it does indeed "wrap around" (crap phrase huh?)...i think what >i mean by wrap around is that beat number 1 of a 4/4 bar lines up >with beat number 1 of a 3/4 bar...and it *does* in the end...after 3 >bars of music i guess...i'd have to hear the tune again to be sure... >look, *I* know what i mean ok??? :)

I think I understand what you mean, and the theoretical term is called polyrythyms (the spelling is probably wrong). Try tapping out a triple meter with your right hand (1 2 3) and at the same time tapping 1 2 (evenly) with your left. The 1's should match up. If you get larger than that (5 over 4) you will experience 'wrap around' and the downbeats should match up every now and then. Sorry for getting technical.... Now a question: What sort of sound is Chimera? There is a copy of a white and black labeled vinyl (valley of the spirits possibly) at my local store and I'm curious. Is it worth 10$? ----------------------------------------------- ,,,,,, "Time flies like an arrow, -o-o- Fruit flies like a banana" l - -Groucho Marx anagram@cwnet.com k e l s e y http://home.cwnet.com/anagram

In message <3.0.3.32.19971020172329.0070121c@cats.ucsc.edu>, Kelsey <anagram@cats.ucsc.edu> writes

quoted 3 lines What sort of sound is Chimera? There is a copy of a white and black

> What sort of sound is Chimera? There is a copy of a white and black >labeled vinyl (valley of the spirits possibly) at my local store and I'm >curious. Is it worth 10$?

It's Kosmik Kommando, so it's acid basically :) Although it has some ambienty bits about it.... -- Ben Coffer Hybrid Productions http://www.hybridgame.demon.co.uk/

Giles Ward wrote:

quoted 4 lines why do the rhythmic elements in supposedly innovative tracks have to use

> why do the rhythmic elements in supposedly innovative tracks have to use > the equivalent of kick drum, snare, hi-hats etc. ? Given a sampler, why do > 99% of artists restrict themselves to imitating real world forms of > percussive instrumentation?

Perhaps because it sounds good. I know a 909 still does it for me. :-) -0 wrote:

quoted 5 lines I read recently that some track on Chichli Suite is

> I read recently that some track on Chichli Suite is > in 12/8... So maybe it's a > 'leeedle' progress, who knows. I think there's a Pentatonik track on > Anthology with some odd signature, and I'm sure Black Dog fiddles > aroud with them, as do other artists....

I'm sure I've got a 5/4 here somewhere - maybe on an old Laibach tape... I remember Hardfloor did a track on their Respect album (The Last Marshmallow Machine?) in triplets/12ths (ie, each of the 4 beats in the bar divided into threes instead of fours). You usually expect that in 50s/60s rock. But it gives the track a real moving/riding feel (great for car trips). I'll put some odd signature stuff on my site soonish. :-) -- Q-Force qforce@holon.net http://www.holon.net/qforce/

In a message dated 97-10-17 16:28:26 EDT, you write: << erm.. surely it'd be three-to-the-floor in 3/4 time? more to the point, why do the rhythmic elements in supposedly innovative tracks have to use the equivalent of kick drum, snare, hi-hats etc. ? Given a sampler, why do 99% of artists restrict themselves to imitating real world forms of percussive instrumentation? It's like getting one of those expensive new modelling synths and wanting a piano sound out of it. >> It's because you can make a tweaky reverberated flanged backwards high end bass boost piano out of it.

GamePrg. wrote:

quoted 2 lines Last Marshmallow Machine?) in triplets/12ths (ie, each of the 4 beats in

> >Last Marshmallow Machine?) in triplets/12ths (ie, each of the 4 beats in > >the bar divided into threes instead of fours).

quoted 3 lines that's called a compound meter / time signature.

> that's called a compound meter / time signature. > > it's not really triplets.

Yeah, I goofed. I was hoping nobody'd pick me up on that. :-) "Last Marshmallow Machine" is online now BTW... last track in the "Respect" clip at the URL below. -- Q-Force qforce@holon.net http://www.holon.net/qforce/