IDM Mailing Archive

Ok, so I just got CONUMBER and PLAYS.... on 12" and after many repeated listening I have come to a conclusion. I CAN'T WRITE DRUM AND BASS FOR SHIT! Mr. Jenkinson is completely out of his mind (for the better). I used to think that maybe I had this drum and bass thing nicked, and that my drum programming was adequate. NOT ANY MORE! Anyone interested in purchasing an entire recording studio, bidding starts at $25,000 (just kidding). James now playing: conumber and the sound of tears hitting my keyboard....

On Monday, 23-Jun-97, Jim Bernard wrote [about (idm) giving up]:

quoted 7 lines Ok, so I just got CONUMBER and PLAYS.... on 12" and after many repeated

>Ok, so I just got CONUMBER and PLAYS.... on 12" and after many repeated >listening I have come to a conclusion. I CAN'T WRITE DRUM AND BASS FOR >SHIT! Mr. Jenkinson is completely out of his mind (for the better). I >used to think that maybe I had this drum and bass thing nicked, and that >my drum programming was adequate. NOT ANY MORE! Anyone interested in >purchasing an entire recording studio, bidding starts at $25,000 (just >kidding).

I tried to do some drum&bass tracks before, but it started sounding all too much like Sqrepshr or AFX so I quit it (drum&bass tracks that is) I reckon maybe i'll try some more stuff later. __ __\ \ / /_\ \ \_____/ , m7=

quoted 1 line I tried to do some drum&bass tracks before, but it started sounding all

> I tried to do some drum&bass tracks before, but it started sounding all

too

quoted 1 line much like Sqrepshr or AFX so I quit it (drum&bass tracks that is)

> much like Sqrepshr or AFX so I quit it (drum&bass tracks that is)

Really?! If it's that good, I'd sure like to hear it, man. Can't have too many Sqpr/AFX sound-alikes if you ask me. Eddie-D of the D-Boys

On Monday, 23-Jun-97, Edward A. Nilges wrote [about Re: (idm) giving up]:

quoted 2 lines Really?! If it's that good, I'd sure like to hear it, man. Can't have too

>Really?! If it's that good, I'd sure like to hear it, man. Can't have too >many Sqpr/AFX sound-alikes if you ask me.

heh I don't like it, because as a whole, I'm not really into the whole drum'n'bass thing.. I mean, I love the Squarepusher stuff, but I just am not into making it.. and secondly, if I make something, and everytime I hear it, it sounds just like Squarepusher or AFX it really gets on my nerves. too bad too, coz I came up with the most wicked drum'n'bass drumkit on my synth ;) anyway, you can get some modules from me at my homepage, http://www.clark.net/pub/buh/index.html and there are also soem at Ben Coffer's IDM module page at (I think) www.hybridgame.co.uk/idm.html? he can correct this as I'm sure it's not right. __ __\ \ / /_\ \ \_____/ , m7=

In message <yam7113.404.127553808@clark.net>, The Rare Guy <buh@clark.net> writes

quoted 8 lines On Monday, 23-Jun-97, Edward A. Nilges wrote [about Re: (idm) giving up]:

>On Monday, 23-Jun-97, Edward A. Nilges wrote [about Re: (idm) giving up]: >too bad too, coz I came up with the most wicked drum'n'bass drumkit on my >synth ;) > >anyway, you can get some modules from me at my homepage, >http://www.clark.net/pub/buh/index.html and there are also soem at Ben >Coffer's IDM module page at (I think) www.hybridgame.co.uk/idm.html? he can >correct this as I'm sure it's not right.

Ah! Sounds like the perfect opportunity for a gratuitous plug :) especially since I recently updated the whole site to make it look a little better: http://www.hybridgame.demon.co.uk/idm.htm that's the one... -- Ben Coffer Hybrid Productions http://www.hybridgame.demon.co.uk/

The Rare Guy wrote:

quoted 2 lines I tried to do some drum&bass tracks before, but it started sounding all too

> I tried to do some drum&bass tracks before, but it started sounding all too > much like Sqrepshr or AFX so I quit it (drum&bass tracks that is)

Yeah, I once tried Jazz, but I swear everything I played sounded just like Thelonious Monk. I sincerely doubt you "tried to do some drum&bass tracks" and ended up sounding like Tom Jenkinson. Not that you weren't good - I have no idea - but if you sounded like TJ then you've got some seriously formidable drum skills and bass skills and probably should be signed this second. -CF

On Monday, 23-Jun-97, Christopher Fahey wrote [about RE: (idm) giving up]:

quoted 4 lines I sincerely doubt you "tried to do some drum&bass tracks" and ended up

>I sincerely doubt you "tried to do some drum&bass tracks" and ended up >sounding >like Tom Jenkinson. Not that you weren't good - I have no idea - but if you >sounded like TJ then you've got some seriously formidable drum skills and

bass

quoted 1 line skills and probably should be signed this second.

>skills and probably should be signed this second.

hm well.. wanna sign me ? :DD nah.. I tried it, but actaully I'd been trying to do breaks for a while but I was never good at it.. but lately I began to start doing some breaks that are ok.. the only thing about breaks IMO is the awkwardness of them, compared to other rhythms, but I think that it's not something that is that hard to do. I would put the challenge more in making the actual music of the track than making the breaks. __ __\ \ / /_\ \ \_____/ , m7=

I think Rare Guy means it's not too hard to get into chopping up breakbeats and having it sound very hectic/frantic. I too got ahold of a whole bunch of the common dnb loops and started playing around, and I too, although I was having a blast, soon discovered I sounded like some TJ or RDJ or LV wannabe. I think this is also a reason why a lot of people have abeef with 'traditional' jungle in that it's sort of easy to cut and paste 16th, 32nd and 64th notes around to creat a whole new groove, so why just leave the loop alone and untouched? What sets someone like TJ apart though is that he incorpaorates his other elements (bass etc) against the meticulous drums so well the programming almost becomes transparent. I had a friend who understands the concepts of sequencing and drum machines and who also does not really listen to IDM or dnb exclaim (when I played him Hard Normal Daddy) that it was some of the most orginal music he's ever heard, and that he couldn't beleive it was done in part 'on a machine/computer'. Nate On Mon, 23 Jun 1997, Christopher Fahey wrote:

quoted 14 lines The Rare Guy wrote:

> The Rare Guy wrote: > > I tried to do some drum&bass tracks before, but it started sounding all too > > much like Sqrepshr or AFX so I quit it (drum&bass tracks that is) > > Yeah, I once tried Jazz, but I swear everything I played sounded just like > Thelonious Monk. > > I sincerely doubt you "tried to do some drum&bass tracks" and ended up sounding > like Tom Jenkinson. Not that you weren't good - I have no idea - but if you > sounded like TJ then you've got some seriously formidable drum skills and bass > skills and probably should be signed this second. > > -CF >

Nate Harrison Digital Magician Inc. www.digimagician.com nate@digimagician.com 313.994.7316

On Monday, 23-Jun-97, Nate Harrison [Digital Magician Inc] wrote [about RE: (idm) giving up]:

quoted 5 lines I think Rare Guy means it's not too hard to get into chopping up

>I think Rare Guy means it's not too hard to get into chopping up >breakbeats and having it sound very hectic/frantic. I too got ahold of a >whole bunch of the common dnb loops and started playing around, and I too, >although I was having a blast, soon discovered I sounded like some TJ or >RDJ or LV wannabe.

I dunno if that was what I meant, but I agree that it's far too easy to chop up breaks, the tough part is like you said, what sets Tom Jenkinsin apart. The music is what's more important, anyone can chop up a few breaks (and IMO, almost anyone can make traditional drum&bass, but that's just my opinion.) i mean, lotsa stuff I do can be compared to AFX, but I'd like to think I have my own little experiments, like taking samples from telephone calls instead of synths :) .. but if it does end up sounding like you're an AFX/SP wannabe, then that's no fun at all __ __\ \ / /_\ \ \_____/ , m7=

Speaking of the Squarepusher sound, I have a good chunk of .ra files available for listening at the Squarepusher Homepage. I did the CD stuff first cause it's easy, i'll get around to the viynl soon. Check it: http://www1.linkonline.net/fresh/disc.htm you should all thanks sfwd, he's fucking hardcore. later, _____ / ,-,_) /,_) (/ RESH Live & Direct from the G-Spot, Orange County, California, USA http://www1.linkonline.net/fresh/fresh.htm

quoted 6 lines The Rare Guy wrote:

> The Rare Guy wrote: > > I tried to do some drum&bass tracks before, but it started sounding all too > > much like Sqrepshr or AFX so I quit it (drum&bass tracks that is) > > Yeah, I once tried Jazz, but I swear everything I played sounded just like > Thelonious Monk.

You can play like Thelonious Monk?! ..... that wouldnt piss me off... but i know what you mean.. everytime i play a plastic sax i sound like Ornette Coleman.... it can be a real drag ;} ho hum k.F.

Christopher Fahey wrote:

quoted 11 lines The whole point of Squarepusher is, to me, that the drums are not "breaks", but

> The whole point of Squarepusher is, to me, that the drums are not "breaks", but > are rather very complex drum tracks integrated into the composition as musch as > the melody is. Most of his songs have zero repeated measures in the drum track. > He's not using breaks, he programming a full 5 minutes worth of drums which > change all the time because he programmed them with the skill and feel of a > live drummer. Most electronic musicians create beats in two ways: One is > sampling. The other is programming, and most artists only program the > equivalent of four or five seconds of drums for a three minute track. A d&b > artist might program 10-20 seconds, but still they repeat measures like crazy > and it *feels* sequenced. You can almost *see* the horizontal bars on their > little mac screen. With TJ, all bets are off. "How's he do it?" you wonder.

Bullshit. With cubase, programming 5 minutes of chopped up breaks is easy as drawing fucking stick figures. Nico from No-U-Turn showed me how to do it years ago, and the first time I tried, it sounded EXACTLY like a squarepusher track. Oh well, maybe I'm blessed? I doubt it... (sigh) peace out, brock. (who is suffering a hang over from trying to hang with the big dogs) np: nothing

The Rare Guy wrote:

quoted 4 lines the only thing about breaks IMO is the awkwardness of them, compared to

> the only thing about breaks IMO is the awkwardness of them, compared to > other rhythms, but I think that it's not something that is that hard to do. > I would put the challenge more in making the actual music of the track than > making the breaks.

Chris Sez: I don't doubt your formidable programming skills, but I do question your perception of TJ's production method and the content of his songs. The whole point of Squarepusher is, to me, that the drums are not "breaks", but are rather very complex drum tracks integrated into the composition as musch as the melody is. Most of his songs have zero repeated measures in the drum track. He's not using breaks, he programming a full 5 minutes worth of drums which change all the time because he programmed them with the skill and feel of a live drummer. Most electronic musicians create beats in two ways: One is sampling. The other is programming, and most artists only program the equivalent of four or five seconds of drums for a three minute track. A d&b artist might program 10-20 seconds, but still they repeat measures like crazy and it *feels* sequenced. You can almost *see* the horizontal bars on their little mac screen. With TJ, all bets are off. "How's he do it?" you wonder. I love the way TJ weaves the drums and melodies together. Often the drums *are* the music, and the composition and effects processing on both the melodic and percussive aspects blurrs the boundaries between them. Track 2 on HND has these intense parts where he employs a typical d&b doubledoubledouble accelerating drum, so the fast drums become a tone. But he goes a step further and makes the resultant tone blend in with the underlying melody and join with it as a single track, dissolving into it. Then, from out of underneath, a new drum track arises. It's beautiful and it can't be described as breakbeat or jungle in any sense of the term. I would be the first to argue strongly against classifying him as a D&B artist at all. Nate Harrison gets it right when he notes that qualitatively, TJ is clearly practicing a different art form than most d&b artists. So when I hear that someone just fools around with breakbeats and then sounds like TJ, I get a bit skeptical. I beleive that you can make convincing jungle that way, but not anything that just sounds like TJ because that's just not how he makes his music. I agree that most breakbeat/d&b/jungle is "awkward", and to be honest I don't like most of it unless it has one of two qualities: 1) A really strong half-time beat (like a dub foundation) so you can actually dance and not look like a spastic Rhesus monkey. 2) Beautiful orchestration and music. TJ and AFX have #2 in spades. WE and Amon Tobin (which I just bought and I love!) have an awful lot of #1 to boot. Most jungle artists are just playing sped up house music with awkwardly placed and sped up canned zero-g breakbeats and that's why I think they are mostly crap. -CF

On Tuesday, 24-Jun-97, Christopher Fahey wrote [about RE: (idm) giving up]:

quoted 3 lines Chris Sez:

>Chris Sez: >I don't doubt your formidable programming skills, but I do question your >perception of TJ's production method and the content of his songs.

oh, you misunderstood me...

quoted 12 lines The whole point of Squarepusher is, to me, that the drums are not "breaks",

>The whole point of Squarepusher is, to me, that the drums are not "breaks", >but >are rather very complex drum tracks integrated into the composition as musch >as >the melody is. Most of his songs have zero repeated measures in the drum >track. >He's not using breaks, he programming a full 5 minutes worth of drums which >change all the time because he programmed them with the skill and feel of a >live drummer. Most electronic musicians create beats in two ways: One is >sampling. The other is programming, and most artists only program the >equivalent of four or five seconds of drums for a three minute track. A d&b >artist might program 10-20 seconds, but still they repeat measures like crazy

quoted 2 lines and it *feels* sequenced. You can almost *see* the horizontal bars on their

>and it *feels* sequenced. You can almost *see* the horizontal bars on their >little mac screen. With TJ, all bets are off. "How's he do it?" you wonder.

they are breaks.. forget all about loops and think about what a break is.. the point in the drum sequence when you break away from the beat with something else, and then go back to the original. i'm not saying that Squarepusher uses loops, I'm saying he uses breaks, and his breaks *are* complex and programmed like you say. at least that's what I think of when I hear the word "breaks."

quoted 3 lines I love the way TJ weaves the drums and melodies together. Often the drums

>I love the way TJ weaves the drums and melodies together. Often the drums >*are* >the music, and the composition and effects processing on both the melodic and

quoted 1 line percussive aspects blurrs the boundaries between them.

>percussive aspects blurrs the boundaries between them.

yeah, if you have beautiful music, shitty drums will bring it down, but mostly I still thing the music is more important, or at least a little bit, if any.

quoted 1 line someone just fools around with breakbeats and then sounds like TJ, I get a

>someone just fools around with breakbeats and then sounds like TJ, I get a

bit

quoted 3 lines skeptical. I beleive that you can make convincing jungle that way, but not

>skeptical. I beleive that you can make convincing jungle that way, but not >anything that just sounds like TJ because that's just not how he makes his >music. I agree that most breakbeat/d&b/jungle is "awkward", and to be honest

I I didn't mean I fooled around with breakbeats.. I made a few drum'n'bass tracks, I never said I didn't know what I was doing :)

quoted 2 lines don't like most of it unless it has one of two qualities:

>don't like most of it unless it has one of two qualities: >1) A really strong half-time beat (like a dub foundation) so you can actually

quoted 2 lines dance and not look like a spastic Rhesus monkey.

>dance and not look like a spastic Rhesus monkey. >2) Beautiful orchestration and music.

a lot of drum'n'bass is missing #2 :) __ __\ \ / /_\ \ \_____/ , m7=

Christopher Fahey wrote:

quoted 3 lines I love the way TJ weaves the drums and melodies together. Often the drums *are*

> I love the way TJ weaves the drums and melodies together. Often the drums *are* > the music, and the composition and effects processing on both the melodic and > percussive aspects blurrs the boundaries between them.

This is what I love about tracks like "Peace Nail" (Dragon Disc 2) and Luke Vibert's "Cheesy (Amen Mix)" (Plug 2). The manipulation and filtering of the breaks becomes the melody. The point about programming vs. sampling is not quite a strict dichotomy; a fair number of Tom J's tracks have original breaks that have been sampled and manipulated, or in some cases individual snare/kick samples are used but step programmed rather than used as part of a longer, looped phrase. In the case of Aphex, it's sampled drum machines or non-percussion sounds which are step programmed or sometimes looped (MIDI rather than audio). To me Luke Vibert does the best at using sampled breaks (i.e. longer phrases/beats) and giving them a lot of feeling and subtlety. The man works magic. On "Hard Normal Daddy" a lot of the tunes are more 'song' oriented - as Tom J says in interviews he approaches tracks as though a band were playing their respective parts - which to me is a breath of fresh air. The arrangements are stronger than on "Feed Me Weird Things" and melodies more complex. Can't wait for the upcoming Rephlex EP. GD

Brock Suter wrote:

quoted 5 lines With cubase, programming 5 minutes of chopped up breaks is easy as

> With cubase, programming 5 minutes of chopped up breaks is easy as > drawing fucking stick figures. > > Nico from No-U-Turn showed me how to do it years ago, and the first time > I tried, it sounded EXACTLY like a squarepusher track.

Not really. I've done up tracks with cubase and although it is easy to come up with something basic, it's much tougher to create something with feeling and and a bit of originality to it. Also remember that techstep is a lot more basic than most Squarepusher tracks. Half the time it sounds like the producer quantized everything to 1/8th notes; there's little complexity in the programming. And that's just the rhythm end of it - writing tunes that evolve is more difficult than 5 min. of a hoover bass line. GD

On Monday, June 23, 1997 8:29 PM, Brock Suter [SMTP:Brock@alchemyfx.com] wrote:

quoted 2 lines With cubase, programming 5 minutes of chopped up breaks is easy as

> With cubase, programming 5 minutes of chopped up breaks is easy as > drawing fucking stick figures.

Of course! And drawing like Leonardo is simply a matter of having a nice pencil. -CF

On Monday, June 23, 1997 5:49 PM, The Rare Guy [SMTP:buh@clark.net] wrote:

quoted 7 lines they are breaks.. forget all about loops and think about what a break is..

> they are breaks.. forget all about loops and think about what a break is.. > > the point in the drum sequence when you break away from the beat with > something else, and then go back to the original. i'm not saying that > Squarepusher uses loops, I'm saying he uses breaks, and his breaks *are* > complex and programmed like you say. > at least that's what I think of when I hear the word "breaks."

Exactly, that's what a break is. My spur-of-the-moment definition of breakbeat/jungle/d&b is: "High tempo electronic music characterized by the heavy (sometimes even exclusive) use of drum patterns conventionally used during breaks in house/techno music." But calling what SP plays "breaks" seems wrong to me. He never "goes back to the original" because there is no dominant or repeating single pattern to the beats. Yes it's all in a steady tempo, but it contains measure after measure of unique, intricate constructions which sound more like the kind of improvisational flourishes of a real jazz drummer than like the once-every-so-often flourish known in techno as a breakbeat. Seriously, many of his songs do not have any two measures of drums which are alike, as far as I can tell. So where's the main beat in somethign liek that? If there's no main beat, then what's a break? It's just a matter of semantics. The term breakbeat to me implies that it is either an actual breakbeat by your definition (a momentary flourish change to the looping main pattern) or music composed of a bunch of measures of drumming usually intended for that purpose. But when the music is composed as a drum epic, it's hard to call it breakbeat. It's like calling a jazz solo just a bunch of riffs. Sure, every little bit could b=probably be sampled and made into some dumb acid-jazz song, but it doesn't mean that the original is composed of riffs or samples. Whatever. But it's interesting to talk about the clinical definitions of pop music ain't it? -CF

Christopher Fahey wrote:

quoted 7 lines On Monday, June 23, 1997 8:29 PM, Brock Suter [SMTP:Brock@alchemyfx.com] wrote:

> > On Monday, June 23, 1997 8:29 PM, Brock Suter [SMTP:Brock@alchemyfx.com] wrote: > > > With cubase, programming 5 minutes of chopped up breaks is easy as > > drawing fucking stick figures. > > Of course! And drawing like Leonardo is simply a matter of having a nice pencil.

You know, I can't defend the guy for comparing himself to AFX and stuff, but you are attacking him for the sake of it, like you are picking a fight, which he wasn't. It's bad form. Chill out. Charlie James

quoted 7 lines On Monday, June 23, 1997 8:29 PM, Brock Suter [SMTP:Brock@alchemyfx.com]

> > On Monday, June 23, 1997 8:29 PM, Brock Suter [SMTP:Brock@alchemyfx.com] > > wrote: > > > With cubase, programming 5 minutes of chopped up breaks is easy as > > > drawing fucking stick figures. > > > > Of course! And drawing like Leonardo is simply a matter of having a nice > > pencil.

On Tuesday, June 24, 1997 1:37 AM, Britton James [SMTP:brittonjames@aristotle.net] wrote:

quoted 3 lines You know, I can't defend the guy for comparing himself to AFX and stuff,

> You know, I can't defend the guy for comparing himself to AFX and stuff, > but you are attacking him for the sake of it, like you are picking a > fight, which he wasn't. It's bad form. Chill out.

Chris Sez: Rare Guy never responded to me as if I were attacking him. He originally wrote that his little experiments sounded like AFX or TJ and I thought that he was somehow missing something in TJ's work to think that it was just like everyday breakbeat music. And ever since then his contributions to the group discussion have been civil, even to me. It was Brock who used the inflammatory profanities and got all belligerent on my ass. Brock's not speaking for Rare Guy. I'm sorry if I seemed insulting in my own posts - I really never intended to, and I don't see how I was. I guess theres a fine line between rhetorical irony and condescending sarcasm sometimes. -CF