IDM Mailing Archive

I just wonder, like there is Detroit for techno, Chicago for house, Rotterdam for gabber, and Bristol for trip hop, is there a city for IDM? Or is London the closest you get? ,,, /'~'\ ( 0 0 ) +----------------------------oOOO--(_)--OOOo----------------------------+ Johan Jaatinen Electronic music maker Anika@Info.LiU.SE Oooo. Radio DJ MU WILL RISE AGAIN .oooO ( ) Vegetarian +-----------------------------( )----) /------------------------------+ \ ( (_/ \_)

In message <v01510100af081b801789@[130.236.16.2]>, Anika & Johan <Anika@Info.LiU.SE> writes

quoted 3 lines I just wonder, like there is Detroit for techno, Chicago for house,

>I just wonder, like there is Detroit for techno, Chicago for house, >Rotterdam for gabber, and Bristol for trip hop, is there a city for IDM? Or >is London the closest you get?

It's like, er, global isn't it? (as in Global Communication) -- Ben Coffer Hybrid Productions

At 18.30 97-01-19 +0100, you wrote:

quoted 1 line I just wonder, like there is Detroit for techno [...]

>I just wonder, like there is Detroit for techno [...]

Hey mista. You misspellt Dusseldorf. Detroit is the town for Cars, Dusseldorf for Techno. You've got it all wrong. Sorry. - franz enmark --- extra terrestrial - - there's a sheep loose in the lane, - - there's a goose asleep in the rain - - http://tbm.scicom.se/plod ----------

quoted 1 line I just wonder, like there is Detroit for techno [...]

>>I just wonder, like there is Detroit for techno [...]

Detroit for techno? get a life, Techno is european, Americans give us R&B and Hip Hop, not techno.

ftodd blurted:

quoted 6 lines I just wonder, like there is Detroit for techno [...]

> > >>I just wonder, like there is Detroit for techno [...] > > Detroit for techno? get a life, Techno is european, Americans give us > R&B and Hip Hop, not techno. >

R U kidding me??? Electronica seems to be more popular in Europe these days... But don't forget where techno started. Derrick May and Juan Atkins aren't European. And I know the difference between techno and electronica as you seem to be confused about it. On Now: Gary Moscheles, _Shaped to Make My Life Easier_ fm (*) Fresh and Full of Life Brian Tang NYC http://silly.com/~tang

quoted 3 lines R U kidding me??? Electronica seems to be more popular in Europe

>R U kidding me??? Electronica seems to be more popular in Europe >these days... But don't forget where techno started. Derrick May >and Juan Atkins aren't European.

sorry, never heard of Derrick May and Juan Atkins, when did they start making whatever music they made. Intelligent Techno, Techno and Trance comes from Germany originally, House and Hardcore comes from the UK, I'll grant the Americans with Garage ie. House with a disco flavour, but that's it. take it easy _________________ ______ ___________ ___ | / \| \| \ | | | |__ __| | | | |_| | | | | | | |\_ _/ | | | | | | | | |___| \______/|______/|______/ |___|

On Tue, 21 Jan 1997 ftodd@netcomuk.co.uk wrote:

quoted 5 lines sorry, never heard of Derrick May and Juan Atkins, when did they start

> sorry, never heard of Derrick May and Juan Atkins, when did they start > making whatever music they made. Intelligent Techno, Techno and Trance > comes from Germany originally, House and Hardcore comes from the UK, > I'll grant the Americans with Garage ie. House with a disco flavour, > but that's it.

You've got some homework to do. Miles

On Tue, 21 Jan 1997 ftodd@netcomuk.co.uk wrote:

quoted 5 lines sorry, never heard of Derrick May and Juan Atkins, when did they start

> sorry, never heard of Derrick May and Juan Atkins, when did they start > making whatever music they made. Intelligent Techno, Techno and Trance > comes from Germany originally, House and Hardcore comes from the UK, > I'll grant the Americans with Garage ie. House with a disco flavour, > but that's it.

is this a joke?!?!? read up on derrick and juan. you might actually learn something. ======== Prymal primal@interaccess.com http://www.interaccess.com/primal/ ======== A NEW JANUARY - CD debut, "Patchwork Shadows" electronic dance with a driving edge http://www.interaccess.com/primal/january/ ======== add some spice to your christ...necco wafers!

On Tue, 21 Jan 1997 ftodd@netcomuk.co.uk wrote:

quoted 5 lines sorry, never heard of Derrick May and Juan Atkins, when did they start

> sorry, never heard of Derrick May and Juan Atkins, when did they start > making whatever music they made. Intelligent Techno, Techno and Trance > comes from Germany originally, House and Hardcore comes from the UK, > I'll grant the Americans with Garage ie. House with a disco flavour, > but that's it.

All I can say is: He/she who does not know history is doomed to repeat it. Oh, wait, did that make sense? Zenon M. Feszczak Philosophist P.S. God help us. P.P.S. I suggest a listen to some 80s U.S. house, techno, garage, acid comps. The 15-set "House Sound of Chicago" is a good starting point. Ironically released on a German label (?), contains almost completely U.S. artists. From early proto-house to late-eighties acid. Of course, this might be a good starting point for a "Where Are They Now?" discussion. Then again, it might not.

if this is a joke, i didn't get it. derrick may, juan atkins and others are the black musicians who created techno in detroit during the early 80s. their revolutionary new music received exactly no attention in the u.s outside of detroit, being 1) innovative and 2) primarily made by urban minorities. fortunately, europeans embraced these musicians as they had embraced other u.s. musicians whose genius went unrecognized in the past (see eric dolphy, dexter gordon, etc.). techno wasmorphed by the euros into the varying forms we see today. so: techno-- 1) born in detroit 2) raised in germany, u.k. learn your history. by the way, elvis didn't start rock'n'roll either. r|b|s On Tue, 21 Jan 1997 ftodd@netcomuk.co.uk wrote: o}sorry, never heard of Derrick May and Juan Atkins, when did they start o}making whatever music they made. Intelligent Techno, Techno and Trance o}comes from Germany originally, House and Hardcore comes from the UK, o}I'll grant the Americans with Garage ie. House with a disco flavour, o}but that's it.

quoted 2 lines derrick may, juan atkins and others are the black musicians who

> derrick may, juan atkins and others are the black musicians who >created techno in detroit during the early 80s. their revolutionary new

Stop. Techno was derived by the music made by Kraftwerk in the late 70s. And guess what, they didn't come from Detroit, they came from Germany. There is no point in trying to convince me otherwise, I know what I am saying. take it easy _________________ ______ ___________ ___ | / \| \| \ | | | |__ __| | | | |_| | | | | | | |\_ _/ | | | | | | | | |___| \______/|______/|______/ |___|

The following is what I'm replying to:

quoted 6 lines sorry, never heard of Derrick May and Juan Atkins, when did they start

> sorry, never heard of Derrick May and Juan Atkins, when did they start > making whatever music they made. Intelligent Techno, Techno and Trance > comes from Germany originally, House and Hardcore comes from the UK, > I'll grant the Americans with Garage ie. House with a disco flavour, > but that's it. > take it easy

OK, I never jump on these threads. I'll probably regret it. But here goes... I hope this was a joke. If it is, I'll laugh with you, not at you. IDM needs people taking the piss every so often. If not... Nothing personal, but you _really_ should try to learn some of the history of the music you're talking about. Everybody's got to start somewhere. Detroit is where techno, as we know it, started (hence, Detroit Techno). Kraftwerk were the originators, Detroit the home of the innovators. Check out the Liner Notes to the Retro Techno compilation. This is a _long_ post, like I said, so be warned. You shouldn't necessarily take _everything_ in the following as gospel, but it does pretty well, as far as I know: Its taken from the 'retro techno/detroit definitive 'emotions electric'' compilation on Network. bill / dj marathon "The Techno Rebels are, whether they recognise it or not, agents of the Third Wave. They will not vanish but multiply in the years ahead. For they are as much a part of the advance to a new stage of civilisation as our missions to Venus, our amazing computers, our biological discoveries, or our explorations of the oceanic depths. "The Third Wave Alvin Toffler. "We're not really interested in tearing you up with the scratches and cuts tonight. We're more interested in... educating you for the future... Derrick May, WJLB Radio Mix It's 3am and the streets of America's seventh city are deserted as Derrick May pilots his car through a crumbling monument to the Second Wave - the age of industry and mass production-the age of Ford and Gordy who both ran their second wave empires from here. "This place is fucked man. It's finished," he says shaking his head incredulously. We pass a gutted building filled with holes that were once windows. Detroit is winding down. the past and isn't sure if it wants to be part of the future. Driving down Woodward Avenue, we pass the wooden house that was home to the carefully-honed pop soul of Motown. Motown was the musical backdrop to the Second Wave. Motown means nothing to Derrick May. Via systems dance records like 'Nude Photo' and together with fellow artists Juan Atkins and Kevin Saunderson, Derrick has invested his time, money and energy in the future. Detroit rolls by like a discarded set from Robocop, a film set in the city's fictional future. "Now you understand why we make this music," he says, "We can do nothing but look forward..." Alvin Toffler's book is a kind of bible to Detroit's new musical revolutionaries. This future shock manifesto sees the Third Wave technological future not as a cocktail of 1984 Numanoid nightmares and Robocop lawlessness, but as a place where man still controls. The nightmare of a brave new world where machines and robots call the shots has no place in this book. Alvin Toffler, like Kraftwerk, is not afraid of the pocket calculator and if he knew of them, it's likely the academic would approve of Model 500, Rhythim Is Rhythim and their positive futurism. The music they both make is not afraid of the future and the view they project is as complex, as contradictory and as plausible as the world of Ridley Scott's Blade Runner. Detroit's electronic music community don't fear the robot. Unlike Gary Numan they look forward. And unlike the ironic acid casualties of Chicago or the scratch fanatics of New York, they have no interest in old records, or scratch science. They are the Techno Rebels-musical agents of the Third Wave who see the fusion of man and machine as the only future. If Alvin Toffler hadn't learned to use a word processor, it's likely that he would be connecting sequencer to drum machine and releasing records on Metroplex, KMS or Transmat, three of Detroit's most active dance labels. Names like Metroplex and Transmat are now bywords for a sound which has hi-jacked dancefloors across the world and diverted the spotlight from Chicago - despite the fact that Detroit's new age electro sound has only a tenuous connection with House. only House clubs and DJs are open -minded enough to deal with a hi-tech sound which can find no other home. Like House it is a machine-driven dance music. And like House it has an idealised notion of Europe and European electronic music borne of a love for Kraftwerk. But despite American dance music's long standing obsession with Europe - from the Munich Machine and Italian Disco to the popularity of records from artists like Telex and Klein And MBO - the new music of Detroit is the first to truly incorporate the European sound-a mixture of technology, detachment and neo-classicism (mirrored in the synthetic strings of Rhythim is Rhythim) so that it seems like something more than a strange metal leg on the wrong body. From D Train and The System to Bambaata and Arthur Baker, this obsession has plotted its way through US clubland. Every US producer shocked by the starkness of Kraftwerk has since dreamed of Europe and the Trans. Europe Express. The reasons why the most vibrant musical community in the world should want to embrace Ralf and Florian's Robo pop are unclear. European music isn't intrinsically better than the sound of America. In most cases it is uncategorically inferior. "Perhaps I have an idealised image of Europe and its music," says Derrick May. "I have a certain way I see it in my mind. I feel I should be there, I know I'd feel right there. " Techno is the sound of America's final and complete assimilation of the European sound and the climax of a fascination. On Bambaata's brave 'Planet Rock' the joins are not hard to find. Model 500's 'Techno Music' is flawless Eurobeat which draws on its influences without tracing over them, Juan Atkins floats somewhere over Dusseldorf and an integration process which has taken almost ten years is complete. In this sense Detroit's new music is not a break with the black tradition (it's acknowledgement of the influence of the Parliament/Funkadelic axis; the futuristic funkiness of most of its output and Mayday's hissing hi-hat patterns bear this out) but more importantly, the point at which America has successfully integrated the European idea that sparked the experiment that was electro. Patrick Cowley's Hi-Energy Sylvester productions of the early '80s show the roots of black music's fascination with continental electronics. The direct descendants of that sound are the Deep House records made in Chicago-a crossbreed of gospel influenced vocals and hard synthesises trax. Detroit goes one step further. Records like Blake Baxter's 'When We Used To Play' or Reese and Santonio's 'Rock To The Beat' only use the human voice out of context so it's strangeness is exaggerated and its coldness becomes somehow machine-like. These sounds are as sublime, as ridiculous, as effective and as European as Kraftwerk intoning 'Showroom Dummies' or New Order coldly inquiring, "How does it feel?" The traditional understanding of black music and the accepted concept of soul become useless. Techno, black music with a soul which refers rather to the passionate commitment of its protagonists, has upturned these things in a way that House with its allegiance to the Philly Sound never could. Detroit has declared itself a satellite state of Germany. The roots of The Sound, can be traced back to Alvin Tofller's book, first published in 1980 and a Vietnam veteran called Richard Davies who Derrick May describes as, "unique and extremely intelligent". Juan Atkins met Richard Davies at Washtehaw Community College, Michigan. Juan was already making primitive electro records limited by the equipment available. Davies who is also known as 3070 (a futuristic name he devised for himself introduced Juan to the book and the concept of Techno. Together they formed Cybotron, a seminal Third Wave pop group whose first record 'Alley's Of Your Mind' on the Deep Space label went on to sell 15,000 copies. 3070's futurism spread as Juan introduced him to Kevin Saunderson and Derrick May - old friends from Bellville High School who were DJ-ing in the city while dabbling with synthesisers inspired by Juan's home recorded tracks. This was 1981, a time when the world outside would only deal with Cybotron in terms of New York's electro scene - hence the appearance of the group's fourth release, 'Techno City' on an early electro compilation. An album 'Enter' made clear that Cybotron came too soon to be fully understood, 3070 disappeared ultimately "fucked up" by his tour of duty in Vietnam and Juan went on to work as Model 500 releasing records on his own Metroplex label. Eddie Fowlkes refers to him as 'Godfather Techno' though Juan, a thoughtful figurehead, seems thoroughly embarrassed by the title. The Techno tag doesn't fit all Detroit's Third Wave musicians as neatly as it fits Juan. His is the purest Techno sound despite the inclusion of sinister whispered vocals, drawing most obviously on European influences. 'No UF0s', an underground dance classic since its release in 1985, is perhaps the scene's most important record. "Detroit has always been a little strange", says Juan. "In Chicago, the House sound is based largely on the music of Philly International. Detroit never really took to disco. We were always more interested in European music and funk has always been popular." This is borne out in the DOR (Dance Orientated Rock) clubs where Blake Baxter used to DJ. The European fascination is intense with records by Depeche Mode, Nitzer Ebb, Bauhaus and New Order easily the most requested. The Funk finds its focus in the fact that most of the Parliament/Funkadelic/Bootsy records of the late '70s were recorded at 'The P Funk Lab' of Detroit's United Sound Studio on Second Avenue in central Detroit. Juan describes Clinton's keyboard genius Bernie Worrell as, "the real Godfather of Techno.' Eddie Fowlkes who now records with Juan at Metroplex studios and whose 1986 release "Goodbye Kiss" is one of the scene's most sought after records elaborates;" The whole essence of Detroit is working class. The people are working, working, to get to the top. Disco came in and it was soft but Clinton's funk was hardcore and it suited the attitude of the people and the environment. The origin of the hardness in Techno is funk." Perhaps it's the city's status as the murder capital of America that accounts for that legacy of toughness "There is a lot of aggression in the. music. And despite what you might think the synthesises can be the most aggressive instrument." "And you have to remember that this is Detroit." Eddie continues. "You could be walking along the street and someone could wind down the window of a car and shoot you. That tension, that sense of aggression is reflected in the music." The past few years have brought at least 50 records from Detroit's Techno innovators and it's a measure of the strength of the city's Third Wave that the combinations of mixers, producers and editors are limitless. Kevin Saunderson was born in New York and moved to Detroit as a child. Despite his friendship with Derrick and Juan, only two years ago his mind was set on a career in football. But as a DJ working college parties at East Michigan University, he eventually got the bug. Now with his own label KMS, he is the scone's most prolific creator, turning out seminal Techno like 'The Sound'. Blake Baxter, an offbeat vocal stylist with songs called 'Ride Em Boy' and 'get Laid' is often compared to Chicago's Jamie Principle. But unlike Jamie, he seems to have little time for the tension between sex and The Holy Sacraments. And Blake has no time for self denial. "My music is about looking at things in a sexual way, I like passionate things and I love sex. Sometimes I don't think my songs go far enough. I wish they could be deeper but I'm not sure if people are ready for that yet." On the American dance scene Derrick May is the best known producer of Techno despite the fact that that Juan is the acknowledged originator. But Mayday has taken Techno somewhere else and the term no longer describes accurately what he does. His is a hard uncompromising sound and his commitment is intense. I mention classic disco and he seizes the opportunity to talk about classical music. Having just moved to a new house, Derrick tells me he can't make music there, "I need a window, something to look at, something to think about" . Driving slowly around the city, he considers the impact his music has had. " It surprises me. People always thought I was crazy to do it. Some People still do. Why do people connect with my music? I think it's because the world has made them bitter. They have deep emotional feelings and no way of expressing them. I think the music brings those feelings out. They're out on the floor dancing, but in their heads they see themselves walking on clouds or they see themselves crossing that finishing line. My music makes me cry sometimes, I think of things I was trying to express" "Sometimes I think about my grandfather, my mother, my childhood or my idols. 'Strings' was about Martin Luther King. When they killed him, they destroyed the hopes and dreams of a generation. It was about the hope in his message." We drive to his old address, a flat on Second Avenue where all of the 110 tracks he has on disc were created. From a window on the top floor he talks through the view that was the inspiration for his music. "I could work through the night and I would see the city waking up - the face without the make-up. At night you would see the heat rising in the air from the stacks of old factory buildings. Now, when I listen to those tracks I see that view, I see the confusion of a city lost in transition from one age to another. The city is dying but Juan and the rest of us are all part of the third wave, the future" In the new music of Detroit the future is already here. John McCready July 1988 Re-edit 1991 Kevin Saunderson Date Of Birth 5.9.64 Born Brooklyn, New York Education Bellville High School. Eastern Michigan University What is life? Living, thinking, moving. Favourite Soda? Blue Cream Soda Kevin Saunderson is.. A human being trying to be better Derrick May is.. A very helpful brother who hip people like Juan Atkins is.. A man in another world What is music? Emotion expressed through sound What is Techno? Using old and new technology to create a futuristic sound What have you done with your money'? I bought a lovely house in a great area and made an investment by owning my own recording studio Why is technology perceived as being cold? Because people are scared of progress Have you ever ridden the Trans Europe Express? No Would you die if you lost the ability to hear? No. I have a lot to live for Do you like robots? Yes Do you like Gary Numan? No, but I loved Cars Favourite machine? Roland SD 8000 Who is the originator? Juan Atkins Who Is the innovator? Kevin Saunderson Who is the elevator? Mr May Is there a future for the world? If there's a tomorrow there's a future, good or bad Juan Atkins Date Of Birth 12.9.62 Education Bellville High. Washentaw Community College, Recording Institute Of Detroit What is Techno? Music that sounds like technology Where would Techno be without England? Where would England be without Techno? Greatest Techno record? Home Computer - Kraftwerk Does It still exist? Does the space shuttle still exist? Do you love machines? I don't love anything that can't love me back Favourite machine? Roland R-8 What would you do if you had a chance to make a record with Kraftwerk? Take plenty of notes Why has Techno inspired some of the most pretentious music journalism of the last decade? Because there is nothing else to talk about except so called new music trends that happened ten or twenty years ago Kevin Saunderson is... A go getter Derrick May is... Creative Juan Atkins is... A man with a vision Who is the originator? Juan Atkins Who Is the innovator? Derrick May Who is the elevator? Kevin Saunderson Will you ever stop making music? No What is music? Sound painting Is there a future for this world? Yes. But not as we know it now Derrick May Date Of Birth 6.4.63 Education School Of Hard Knox Current yearly salary? None of your fucking business First record bought? 'Tommy The Who What does the phrase Bellville Three mean to you? Nothing Does George Clinton have anything to do with Techno? No What is Techno? Bullshit Hype Favourite Drum machine? Roland TR 808 Preferred keyboard? Trade secret What inspires you to make music? Nothing at the moment Will you ever stop making music? Maybe yes, maybe no Ambition To score films Kevin Saunderson is.. Extremely energetic Juan Atkins is... A thoroughbred that doesn't want to run Derrick May is.. (No response) Who Is the innovator? Kraftwerk Who is the originator? Cybotron Who is the elevator Otis What is the Third Wave? A progressive state of mind What makes you happy? Anything that doesn't ask me questions Is there a future for this world? There had better be -- f u t u r e listening radio show - hosted by dj marathon t h u r s d a y 10pm-1am e l e c t r o n i c a * w i t h * s o u l w m t u 91.9 fm

Just picked up Psyche BFC: Elements by Carl Craig- an excellent record of some late 80's Detroit stuff if you need some Detroit records in your collection-which you really do... Nate Nate Harrison DIGITAL MAGICIAN http://www.globalwise.com/DIGIMAGICIAN/ WWW Authors and Electronic Imaging Specialists

In message <32e5f788.1068016@smtp.netcruiser>, ftodd@netcomuk.co.uk writes

quoted 7 lines sorry, never heard of Derrick May and Juan Atkins, when did they start

>sorry, never heard of Derrick May and Juan Atkins, when did they start >making whatever music they made. Intelligent Techno, Techno and Trance >comes from Germany originally, House and Hardcore comes from the UK, >I'll grant the Americans with Garage ie. House with a disco flavour, >but that's it. > >take it easy

This is a troll right? Either that, or someone needs to read a little bit of music history. -- Ben Coffer Hybrid Productions

quoted 3 lines I just wonder, like there is Detroit for techno, Chicago for house,

>I just wonder, like there is Detroit for techno, Chicago for house, >Rotterdam for gabber, and Bristol for trip hop, is there a city for IDM? Or >is London the closest you get?

Utrecht, NL !!! Only nobody knows :)) Bye, Allert -- "No corporation will ever pay a creator enough to sue them succesfully" -Dave Sim, creator of Cerebus Allert Aalders - Big Time Concepts - allert@knoware.nl - KoX

In message <v01510103af0960bca039@[193.79.183.34]>, Allert Aalders <allert@knoware.nl> writes

quoted 5 lines I just wonder, like there is Detroit for techno, Chicago for house,

>>I just wonder, like there is Detroit for techno, Chicago for house, >>Rotterdam for gabber, and Bristol for trip hop, is there a city for IDM? Or >>is London the closest you get? > >Utrecht, NL !!! Only nobody knows :))

I love Utrecht...my brother lives there...but he knows nothing about IDM unfortunately....are there *any* good record stores in Utrecht? Bye - Ben -- Ben Coffer Hybrid Productions

At 17:31 20-01-97 +0100, you wrote:

quoted 5 lines I just wonder, like there is Detroit for techno, Chicago for house,

>>I just wonder, like there is Detroit for techno, Chicago for house, >>Rotterdam for gabber, and Bristol for trip hop, is there a city for IDM? Or >>is London the closest you get? > >Utrecht, NL !!! Only nobody knows :))

Well!! At least I did! .................... http://wwwedu.cs.utwente.nl/~wielen/forcefield/ ¤ forcefield ¤ ..............................................

On Sun, 19 Jan 1997 23:03:26 GMT, ftodd@netcomuk.co.uk <ftodd@netcomuk.co.uk> wrote:

quoted 4 lines I just wonder, like there is Detroit for techno [...]

>>>I just wonder, like there is Detroit for techno [...] > >Detroit for techno? get a life, Techno is european, Americans give us >R&B and Hip Hop, not techno.

And the education standards are falling even further... Maybe Slam should reissue 'Positive Education'... Otto, who wonders why he bothered replying to this at all PS Sheffield ?

ftodd claimed:

quoted 6 lines sorry, never heard of Derrick May and Juan Atkins, when did they start

> sorry, never heard of Derrick May and Juan Atkins, when did they start > making whatever music they made. Intelligent Techno, Techno and Trance > comes from Germany originally, House and Hardcore comes from the UK, > I'll grant the Americans with Garage ie. House with a disco flavour, > but that's it. >

I'm assuming you mean Kraftwerk started techno. Kraftwerk isn't "techno". They fit into the broad definition electronica. I'm not an expert by any means, but I'll try. Juan Atkins and Derrick May are the boys who started piddling around in their bedrooms in the early in 80's in Detroit. This was the first techno. House music mutated out of the early techno in Chicago. Techno became much more popular in Europe then it did in the US in the late 80's and early 90's and artists their were much more influencial during this period. People, please correct any historical inaccuracies. And in no way should this be taken as a "US v. Europe" argument. ftodd, I thought you said you were leaving the list anyway. Our knowledge of electronica obviously doesn't reach the level of yours. Brian (*) Fresh and Full of Life Brian Tang NYC http://silly.com/~tang

At 12:29 -0500 21.01.97, you wrote:

quoted 12 lines Juan Atkins and Derrick May are the boys who started piddling around

> >Juan Atkins and Derrick May are the boys who started piddling around >in their bedrooms in the early in 80's in Detroit. This was the >first techno. House music mutated out of the early techno in Chicago. > >Techno became much more popular in Europe then it did in the US in >the late 80's and early 90's and artists their were much more >influencial during this period. > >People, please correct any historical inaccuracies. And in no way >should this be taken as a "US v. Europe" argument. >

Right on. The Europe-U.S. process is too complex to attempt some simple us-vs-them competition anyway. House was largely born in U.S. gay underground clubs, a sort of pre-rave scene. But house hit the mainstream in Europe before it bounced back and hit the mainstream in the U.S. (largely when non-house pop artists started lifting house rhythms). Similarly with techno, which has its roots in the U.S., but certainly the techno scene now is immense in Europe relative to the U.S. Josh Wink was complaining about this recently, saying (with perhaps slight poetic hyperbole) that the U.S. is the only country in the Western world where dance music is _not_ the most popular form of music. Zenon M. Feszczak Philosophist P.S. Check out the double comp assembled by 4Hero of Detroit techno, called "The Deepest Shade of Techno".

On Tue, 21 Jan 1997, Brian J Tang (The Freshmaker) wrote:

quoted 2 lines I'm assuming you mean Kraftwerk started techno. Kraftwerk isn't

> I'm assuming you mean Kraftwerk started techno. Kraftwerk isn't > "techno". They fit into the broad definition electronica.

ik. Techno is an icky word :) I only use it when absolutely necassary ;) -- Hillie aka Aurafix / DAMONES hillien kotisivu - http://www.clark.net/pub/buh/index.html easy internet services - http://huizen.dds.nl/~eis Do re mi fa so la ti.. Oh let's see if I can make it easier...

In message <199701211731.AA00549@ougou.devo.ilx.com>, "Brian J Tang (The Freshmaker)" <tang@ilx.com> writes

quoted 3 lines I'm assuming you mean Kraftwerk started techno. Kraftwerk isn't

>I'm assuming you mean Kraftwerk started techno. Kraftwerk isn't >"techno". They fit into the broad definition electronica. >

There was no such term as techno when kraftwerk were making records in the 70s, so yeah, electronica is correct.

quoted 5 lines I'm not an expert by any means, but I'll try.

>I'm not an expert by any means, but I'll try. > >Juan Atkins and Derrick May are the boys who started piddling around >in their bedrooms in the early in 80's in Detroit. This was the >first techno. House music mutated out of the early techno in Chicago.

Oops....no...House music clearly mutated out of 70s disco....it was 70s disco with drum machines. It came from New York. Garage from Chicago, and techno from Detroit.

quoted 2 lines People, please correct any historical inaccuracies. And in no way

>People, please correct any historical inaccuracies. And in no way >should this be taken as a "US v. Europe" argument.

Well there you go....hmmm not much in it on the US V Europe...all we've got is jungle. -- Ben Coffer Hybrid Productions

It seems its always the same argument over and over. There are no orginators they were all responsible for what is happenning now. Its obvious from the responses that all of the artist mentioned were each influenced at one time or another by the sounds that preceded them (kraftwerk on May & atkins, etc.) You could keep tracing back each of thier own inspirations and influences till your blue in the face, they have all had a direct effect on each other in what I would simple call a chain of progression. To go back and say that they were the first blah,blah,blah is a waste of time. Just my 2 cents Manny

On Tue, 21 Jan 1997, basscadet wrote:

quoted 1 line It seems its always the same argument over and over. There are no

> It seems its always the same argument over and over. There are no

quoted 1 line blah,blah,blah is a waste of time.

> blah,blah,blah is a waste of time.

Here is a different way of looking at it: who invented the "machine-aesthetic"? I mean the whole sensibility that blatantly machinel-made music was cool.. this is a cornerstone of IDM as I see it, afterall, intelligent dance music could be made without electronics and machines if the musicians were skilled enough, however, the use of blatantly "elektronik" sounds is a big part of the whole aesthetic, isn't it? So I'd say that the lineage would be... Satie->Cage/Stockhausen->Kraftwerk->Detroit->(from here everything ping-pongs between European countries and the US, though Detroit is still rather isolated in this aesthetic) I just saw a 95 film on a newer Stockhausen peice and remembered how everything he came out with was on the heels of Cage pretty much, so I lump them together. Since CAge was American and Stocky was German(?), that whole duality goes back to before the detroit/europe arguement actually. rock has been that was too from early on. Seems like Americans blindly invent stuff but only Europeans have the taste or education to figure out the wheat from the chaff...imho solenoid@europa.com <------+

quoted 6 lines ...or maybe Eric Satie invented ambient and that kinda music in 1888 in

> ...or maybe Eric Satie invented ambient and that kinda music in 1888 in > Paris... > Who knows...? You believe what you want to believe.. I guess there are no > right nor wrongs, If you fancy May instead of Kraftwerk I guess it's kinda > obvious who you'd choose... > Personally I'd choose Kraftwerk, so take the whole thing with a pinch of salt.

The whole Kraftwerk was very influential in starting the electronica genre. When I refer to techno, i'm refering to a very specific genre within electronica. I was not arguing that Atkins/May did not receive influence from Kraftwerk, but started a more specific genre.

quoted 5 lines ftodd, I thought you said you were leaving the list anyway. Our

> >ftodd, I thought you said you were leaving the list anyway. Our > >knowledge of electronica obviously doesn't reach the level of yours. > > And please stop this shit! It's fuckin pathetic! >

Yeah, it's flamebait, but this guy came on the list, made a lot of noise, then said this list was worthless to him and was going to leave. Then makes clueless statements. Tends to raise my ire. I apologize. Brian (*) Fresh and Full of Life Brian Tang NYC http://silly.com/~tang

At 12.29 97-01-21 -0500, you wrote:

quoted 2 lines I'm assuming you mean Kraftwerk started techno. Kraftwerk isn't

>I'm assuming you mean Kraftwerk started techno. Kraftwerk isn't >"techno". They fit into the broad definition electronica.

I guess you've only heard their "The Mix" album then. Dunno if someone even used the term "Techno" before Kraftwerk when they in 1982 stated that their next album was to be called "Techno Pop". (This same album was later released as "Electric Cafe" in 1986).

quoted 4 lines I'm not an expert by any means, but I'll try.

>I'm not an expert by any means, but I'll try. >Juan Atkins and Derrick May are the boys who started piddling around >in their bedrooms in the early in 80's in Detroit. This was the >first techno. House music mutated out of the early techno in Chicago.

Juan Atkins, Derrick May and Kevin Saunderson, living in Detroit, were influenced by Kraftwerk and the cold european electronic music and started making music in 1978, mixing the black dance-music culture with the electronic european music. The (somewhat) famous quote when May is to explain the music he's playing: "as if George Clinton and Kraftwerk were stuck in an elevator together with a sequencer as the only company" Something like that... Try to convince me that May/Atkins were more important than Kraftwerk...:) Kraftwerk started in 1968, influenced by the german (mad..;) avant-garde composer Karlheinz Stockhausen during an improvisation course in Dusseldorf, Germany. They then starts to make music with radiosounds, electronic flutes, tapemachines, organs and all kinda shit. First under the name of Organization and the under Kraftwerk. There has not been a more influencial group or artist in this genre (IDM, Techno, whatever) than Kraftwerk. Just listen to all 80s techno or Autechre (esp keynell rmxs n the sound of machines) or even global goon. I tell you; Kraftwerk. ...or maybe Eric Satie invented ambient and that kinda music in 1888 in Paris... Who knows...? You believe what you want to believe.. I guess there are no right nor wrongs, If you fancy May instead of Kraftwerk I guess it's kinda obvious who you'd choose... Personally I'd choose Kraftwerk, so take the whole thing with a pinch of salt.

quoted 2 lines ftodd, I thought you said you were leaving the list anyway. Our

>ftodd, I thought you said you were leaving the list anyway. Our >knowledge of electronica obviously doesn't reach the level of yours.

And please stop this shit! It's fuckin pathetic! Everybody in the house if you're ready to rock then let me hear you scream! And if you really came to party, then let me hear everybody. Say; We can too party! *grin* Cher, Franco the mad rocka. NO RICHARD, WE'RE NOT OK! I SPOKE TO THE FAT ONE TODAY.

Hillie <buh@clark.net> claimed:

quoted 6 lines On Tue, 21 Jan 1997, Brian J Tang (The Freshmaker) wrote:

> On Tue, 21 Jan 1997, Brian J Tang (The Freshmaker) wrote: > > I'm assuming you mean Kraftwerk started techno. Kraftwerk isn't > > "techno". They fit into the broad definition electronica. > > ik. Techno is an icky word :) I only use it when absolutely necassary ;) >

Techno is an ugly word when someone uses it to describe jungle. Meaning that when they use in where they should use the word electronica. In general, when mass-media uses the word techno it's bad. Besides that mis-use, techno describes a sub-category of electronica. Brian (*) Fresh and Full of Life Brian Tang NYC http://silly.com/~tang

ftodd claimed:

quoted 6 lines sorry, never heard of Derrick May and Juan Atkins, when did they start

> sorry, never heard of Derrick May and Juan Atkins, when did they start > making whatever music they made. Intelligent Techno, Techno and Trance > comes from Germany originally, House and Hardcore comes from the UK, > I'll grant the Americans with Garage ie. House with a disco flavour, > but that's it. >

man you're full of shit ftodd. don't you know it comes from everywhere?? this is a beat discussion. sorry just had to put in my 2 cents :)

In a message dated 21/01/97 18:59:48, you write:

quoted 3 lines Dunno if someone even used the term "Techno" before Kraftwerk when they

> Dunno if someone even used the term "Techno" before Kraftwerk when they > in 1982 stated that their next album was to be called "Techno Pop". (This > same album was later released as "Electric Cafe" in 1986).

Man Parrish released 'Techno Trax' in maybe 1982, I think. On Now? For The Moment - Fusion Waste Concepts

On 23-Jan-97, Humanerr0r@aol.com wrote:

quoted 1 line In a message dated 21/01/97 18:59:48, you write:

>In a message dated 21/01/97 18:59:48, you write:

quoted 3 lines Dunno if someone even used the term "Techno" before Kraftwerk when they

>> Dunno if someone even used the term "Techno" before Kraftwerk when they >> in 1982 stated that their next album was to be called "Techno Pop". (This >> same album was later released as "Electric Cafe" in 1986).

I used to have that album when I was like 7-8 years old, I lived in Miami, Florida at that time, but then when I moved up to Baltimore, MD, somehow the record got lost in the move :(( sad story eh? :P -- Hillie aka Aurafix / DAMONES hillien kotisivu - http://www.clark.net/pub/buh/index.html easy internet services - http://huizen.dds.nl/~eis Do re mi fa so la ti.. Oh let's see if I can make it easier...

On Thu, 23 Jan 1997 16:29:57 -0500 (EST), Humanerr0r@aol.com <Humanerr0r@aol.com> wrote:

quoted 5 lines Dunno if someone even used the term "Techno" before Kraftwerk when they

>> Dunno if someone even used the term "Techno" before Kraftwerk when they >> in 1982 stated that their next album was to be called "Techno Pop". (This >> same album was later released as "Electric Cafe" in 1986). > >Man Parrish released 'Techno Trax' in maybe 1982, I think.

The term 'techno' was first used by Alvin Toffler in his book "The Third Wave" (from 1979 I think?), but that wasn't specifically directed at the music. I don't know about the first musically-related use of 'techno', I guess it's either one of the two above or Juan Atkins / Cybotron. Otto OnNow: Sheep On Drugs - 'Greatest Hits' (thanks to all the people suggesting it)