IDM Mailing Archive

the new rolling stones issue features reviews of the aphex twin RDJ album and DJ Shadows new album (...entroduction?) anyway the reviews of the albums are not what im concerned with, its the simple fact that aphex twin is in a magazine like rolling stone; the seminal icon of pop music magazines... i feel somewhat discontent thinking that electronica (idm, techno etc.) may be the next "grunge" of america...once (IF) electronica surfaces to the american mainstream i think its credibilty and its creative edge will suffer... qualities that have made electronica what it is today like experimentation will be sacrificed... if electronica goes mainstream it will lose its purity as an artform- instead of primarily existing to induce contemplative, peaceful or joyous states, its forced objective will be to make big money for big labels... whats the future of our future music ? opinions, of course are welcome. your fellow idmer, afo at mt.osikanawa design labs.1998

On Mon, 13 Jan 1997, afo wrote:

quoted 2 lines i feel somewhat discontent thinking that electronica (idm, techno etc.)

> i feel somewhat discontent thinking that electronica (idm, techno etc.) > may be the next "grunge" of america...once (IF) electronica surfaces to

it seems to be true. when i went to visit mum for the holidays (i don't have a tv, so i watch lots when i visit for the holidays, since there's also not much else to do) i saw "firestarter" by the progidy & "setting sun" by the chem. bros. more times than any other video in rotation on MTV (that is when they actually get around to playing videos...). I mentioned this to someone, who told me MTV is changing its format for '97 & going to play more electronica (apparently grunge has died, rap is on its last legs & "alternative" isn't anymore...)

Martian, (newbie with something to say), writes regarding the mtv thread ,(attached):

quoted 1 line This seems to be true. MTV (US) has increased the time slots of their

>> This seems to be true. MTV (US) has increased the time slots of their

premiere dance music video program AMP. While they have begun to put more electronic videos into their rotation (as has been reported by billboard and cmj list). However, I'm not exactly sure all of this mainstream exposure is a bad thing. The important fact is that this intergration takes place on the terms of the audience of and creative force behind the music. Isn't the point to "share the vibe"? History has shown us that any musical trend that is even the most remotely marketable --read profitable-- by the capitalist musical purist will be co-opted by the mainstream. It's going to happen if not today, tomorrow. Our focus should be on controlling the cultural share of the music and making sure that this gets included in the package. Hip Hop is strugglin' to start to do this --artist like De la Soul, Juru the Damaja, The Roots and IDM favourite DJ Shadow. We can't afford to start our struggle for the intellectual control of the future direction of the music ten years after our music starts to break into the mainstream. We must realize our goals Now. All our brethen in Europe will tell you that MTV europe regularly has been and continue to broadcast dance music in europe --where it is mainstream. My belaboured point is Mainstream doesn't necessecarily mean Bad. The negative influence of mass appeal is only there when the product and the means to produce are taken out of the underground and put in the grubby hands of record executive that care more about profits than progression. Let's not be musical elitist here....that the game of the purist and industry folk. I rather bast in the plur , reflect and meditate. The more that do it with me the merrier. opinions? btw--am i the only one who has issue with the term "intelligent" being placed in front of genres to further sub divide them? ~\\\//~ (6 6) {---------------oOOO--(_)--OOOo---------------} | /---------------------------------\ | | | SUNY University at Albany | | | \---------------------------------/ | | E-mail: mm1710@cnsvax.albany.edu | | E-mail: martian@usa.net | {_________________________Oooo._______________} .oooO ( ) ( ) ) / \ ( (_/ \_) --------------------------------------------------------------------------- origins of a thread? On Mon, 13 Jan 1997, Christopher William Niemitz wrote:

quoted 18 lines On Mon, 13 Jan 1997, afo wrote:

> On Mon, 13 Jan 1997, afo wrote: > > > i feel somewhat discontent thinking that electronica (idm, techno etc.) > > may be the next "grunge" of america...once (IF) electronica surfaces to > > it seems to be true. when i went to visit mum for the holidays > (i don't have a tv, so i watch lots when i visit for > the holidays, since there's also not much else to do) > i saw "firestarter" by the progidy & "setting sun" > by the chem. bros. more times than any other video > in rotation on MTV (that is when they actually get around > to playing videos...). I mentioned this to someone, who > told me MTV is changing its format for '97 & going to > play more electronica (apparently grunge has died, rap > is on its last legs & "alternative" isn't anymore...) > > >

quoted 5 lines the new rolling stones issue features reviews of

>the new rolling stones issue features reviews of >the aphex twin RDJ album and DJ Shadows new album (...entroduction?) >anyway the reviews of the albums are not what im concerned with, >its the simple fact that aphex twin is in a magazine like rolling stone; >the seminal icon of pop music magazines...

now, now. the mainstream press, such as 'spin' and 'rolling stone' haven't jumped on the idm bandwagon [at least in terms of review coverage]. rdj's last three full lengths [icbyd, saw2, sine waves] have all been featured in the above [and other american rags, such as raygun, bikini, axcess, hypno, ect.] prodigy, orbital, mouse on mars, muziq, plastikman.... all reviewed in mainstream music papers. no need to get to excited.

quoted 5 lines if electronica goes mainstream it will lose its purity as an artform-

>if electronica goes mainstream it will lose its purity as an artform- >instead of primarily existing to induce contemplative, peaceful >or joyous states, its forced objective will >be to make big money for big labels... >whats the future of our future music ?

a good pal and i were pondering the same thing. if techno becomes widely accepted in america, we saw two possible outcomes : techno as disco or techno as jazz. techno as disco: funk and r+b gain 'underground' popularity / techno and d+b gain 'underground' popularity growing audience creates a surge of / growing audience creates a surge of commercially viable dance and / commercially viable idm + d+b artists disco artists popularity peaks into the public / popularity peaks into the public mainstream, especially the youth / mainstream, especially the youth backlash ensues / backlash ensues 'disco sucks' rally held at a / 'techno sucks' rally held at a baseball field in nyc, 1981 / baseball field in nyc, 2001 disco submerges into the under / techno submerges into the underground ground and mutates into other / and mutates into other genres genres techno as jazz: jazz innovators create a new music / techno innovators create a new music borrowing elements from negro / borrowing elements from hiphop, rock, spirituals, african musical / soul and jazz. theory, and european musicl theory / jazz's popularity literally creates / techno's popularity enhances the recording the recording and music publishing / industry through increased cd/lp sales industries jazz dance/big bands [jimmy dorsey, / techno bands [chemical bros., prodigy] glenn miller] achieve widespread / achieve widespread popularity, especially popularity, especially in club / in club environments, while changing environments, while changing jazz / techno compositional standards as not to compositional standards as not to / alienate larger audiences alienate larger audiences others, such as ornette coleman, / others, such as autechre, vibert, clifford monk, and miles davis advance the / and james advance the music by music by challenging the listener / challenging the listener and, therefore, and, therefore, giving the genre / giving the genre a slight aire of a slight aire of intelligence / intelligence jazz recreates itself several times / techno recreates itself several times in the spirit of interpretation / in the spirit of interpretation while dance bands play the same old / while dance bands play the same old tunes / tunes. whew. i apologise for any historical inaccuracies. i'm not a musicologist by far, but i think the two parallels are certainly possible. i can wait to see the nasty responses to this tomorrow morning! Grant.

[...]

quoted 2 lines i feel somewhat discontent thinking that electronica (idm, techno etc.)

> > i feel somewhat discontent thinking that electronica (idm, techno etc.) > > may be the next "grunge" of america...once (IF) electronica surfaces to

[...]

quoted 4 lines if electronica goes mainstream it will lose its purity as an artform-

> > if electronica goes mainstream it will lose its purity as an artform- > > instead of primarily existing to induce contemplative, peaceful > > or joyous states, its forced objective will > > be to make big money for big labels...

[...]

quoted 3 lines told me MTV is changing its format for '97 & going to

> told me MTV is changing its format for '97 & going to > play more electronica (apparently grunge has died, rap > is on its last legs & "alternative" isn't anymore...)

c'mon.. purity as an artform? the very fact that u fear a commercialisation of it kinda rules the 'purity' out, don't u think? even if electronica hit it big and was commercially interesting, the present scene wouldn't lose anything.. the small pressings would still work on the same basis. only difference would be that the artist would earn some money for a change, the public would gain access and that u couldn't spend your life thinkin' u were darn cool listening to electronica. if the scene survived it, i'd say we'd have ourselves a winner with a whole lot of 'purity'. on now: still sawII (lengthy, isn't it?:) -- Oskar Andersson aka Dj Mono - mono@tbm.scicom.se -

doesn't anyone remember the review of "i care because you do" in rolling stone from early '95? they gave it four stars and said it was some of the most important music being released at the time. that's how i got started on this stuff. i saw that review, then i saw the disc in the store and figured "what the hell?" how much richer i would be now... hehehe... i wouldn't trade my music for anything. oh well. just my two cents. have a great night, everyone, cause it's time for me to hit the sack. alan! np: disc one, saw II __ :::::/\ \:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ::::/ \ \::::::you make the mistake::::::::::: :::/ /\ \ \:::::you judge a man by his race:::: ::/ / /\ \ \::::you go through life:::::::::::: :/ / /__\_\ \:::with egg on your face:::::::::: / / /________\::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: \/___________/::::::::::-beastie boys::::::::::

quoted 3 lines a good pal and i were pondering the same thing. if techno becomes widely

> a good pal and i were pondering the same thing. if techno becomes widely > accepted in america, we saw two possible outcomes : techno as disco or > techno as jazz.

Interesting analysis. I'd almost think that the probable path is both directions at once, the Chem Bros and Prodigy on one end of the spectrum, and the Viberts and Schmidts and James' on the other. The former of the two will get most of the MTV/AOR play as they are closer to current pop music; the latter group will continue to innovate. Although if there were a really cheeky video for 'Milkman' I bet it'd get everyone's attention... GD

Mr. Oskar Andersson writes:

quoted 9 lines c'mon.. purity as an artform? the very fact that u fear a

>c'mon.. purity as an artform? the very fact that u fear a >commercialisation of it kinda rules the 'purity' out, don't u think? >even if electronica hit it big and was commercially interesting, the >present scene wouldn't lose anything.. the small pressings would still >work on the same basis. only difference would be that the artist would >earn some money for a change, the public would gain access and that u >couldn't spend your life thinkin' u were darn cool listening to >electronica. if the scene survived it, i'd say we'd have ourselves a >winner with a whole lot of 'purity'.

afo writes: im sorry but i disagree... once anything (any kind of expression) is brought into the mainstream and is "commercialised" it loses its original quality of being pure, innovative, or groundbreaking...c'mon when 3rd graders start totting blackdog lunchboxes to school youll see what i mean (of course im making a gross exaggeration) when i say purity im talkin bout the idea of how electronica now exists beneath pop culture...its created for people that are truely into the music, not for the hopeless trendies riding the wave of something thats cool for now... artists know this and honestly create brilliant innovative, provacative tunes knowing their bona fide audience will respond...we're in it cuz we're into it, not because its a cool thing to do for now. if electronica gets pushed up into the mainstream the music will lose its purity, it will be evently churned out quickly and halfheartedly for the trendies, innovation and experimentation given a back seat. itll become essentially a moneymaking "hip-nu-thing" for entities like mtv, coke, (any huge label) etc. and again more trendies will be brainwished into it becuz...its on mtv and coke commercials ...so its gotta be cool-un-dope.

quoted 2 lines and that u couldn't spend your life thinkin' u were darn cool listening to

>and that u couldn't spend your life thinkin' u were darn cool listening to >electronica.

i want to spend my life thinkin im darn cool and i want you to be darn cool too Oskar... thanks, but no thanks,,, afo at mt.osikanawa design labs.1998

I met the guy who is the producer for MTV's "AMP", which is their new idm version of 120 Minutes. He was very proud of what he does. He's proud of the fact that he gets to play videos to the kids in podunk usa which they've never ever seen before. The videos are almost all really really good, and even better, the folks at MTV do a DJ mix and a *video* mix of the stuff (using video transition effects and stuff) into a continuous play (17 minutes before the first ad). I know it's scary to see it on MTV, but it does look really good. And if you consider the evangelical nature of sharing your musical pleasures, it's not so bad. We should not be afraid of co-option by MTV. Just move on to something they don't yet know about. One thing we must remember is that stuff like Chem Bros, FSOL, Prodigy - they are all top-40 bands in England and Europe. They are the Mariah Careys of London. I think Underworld's Born Slippy made them the Celine Dion of 1997 in England. Their videos are produced at huge expense for MTV Europe, and they are promoted relentlessly there. It's by no means obscure or esoteric. -Chris Fahey

quoted 24 lines -----Original Message-----

>-----Original Message----- >From: Christopher William Niemitz [SMTP:niemitz@cats.ucsc.edu] >Sent: Tuesday, January 14, 1997 1:04 AM >To: afo >Cc: idm@hyperreal.com >Subject: Re: (idm) aphex in rolling stones > >On Mon, 13 Jan 1997, afo wrote: > >> i feel somewhat discontent thinking that electronica (idm, techno etc.) >> may be the next "grunge" of america...once (IF) electronica surfaces to > >it seems to be true. when i went to visit mum for the holidays >(i don't have a tv, so i watch lots when i visit for >the holidays, since there's also not much else to do) >i saw "firestarter" by the progidy & "setting sun" >by the chem. bros. more times than any other video >in rotation on MTV (that is when they actually get around >to playing videos...). I mentioned this to someone, who >told me MTV is changing its format for '97 & going to >play more electronica (apparently grunge has died, rap >is on its last legs & "alternative" isn't anymore...) > >

At 1:05 AM 1/14/97, when tacky people do tacky things wrote: ...snip...

quoted 5 lines a good pal and i were pondering the same thing. if techno becomes widely

>a good pal and i were pondering the same thing. if techno becomes widely >accepted in america, we saw two possible outcomes : techno as disco or >techno as >jazz. >

...snip...

quoted 5 lines whew. i apologise for any historical inaccuracies. i'm not a musicologist by

>whew. i apologise for any historical inaccuracies. i'm not a musicologist by >far, but i think the two parallels are certainly possible. i can wait to see >the nasty responses to this tomorrow morning! > >Grant.

Well, FWIW, Techno now has a separate column in Playboy's music pages, alongside Jazz, R&B, Classical and, yes, Rock. So, at least in the eyes of that oh-so-progressive rag, Techno is a separate but equal genre, and not a subset of Rock. What does this mean? I guess there is a snowball's chance in hell that Techno will eventually settle down to being a separate genre in the music industry, just like Jazz, and not a flavor-of-the-month marketing scam designed to cushion people from the death of Rock.

At 09:12 AM 1/14/97 -0500, afo wrote:

quoted 2 lines Mr. Oskar Andersson writes:

> >Mr. Oskar Andersson writes:

quoted 7 lines if electronica gets pushed up into the mainstream the music

>if electronica gets pushed up into the mainstream the music >will lose its purity, it will be evently churned out quickly and >halfheartedly for the trendies, innovation and experimentation given >a back seat. itll become essentially a moneymaking "hip-nu-thing" >for entities like mtv, coke, (any huge label) etc. and again more trendies >will be brainwished into it becuz...its on mtv and coke commercials >...so its gotta be cool-un-dope.

I dunno, you think all the groups/artists we like now will begin churning out crap because more of the mainstream likes it? Sure there will be groups that cash in on whatever the latest trend is but even genres that are trendy now still have some quality artists in them that aren't just doing it to make a buck. I think it would be the same way with IDM/Ambient if they were both the top choices of music for the mainstream trendy types.

I haven't seen anyone mention in this discussion that Rolling Stone's review gave Aphex Twin, _Richard D. James_ ***1/2 and DJ Shadow, _Endtroducing_ ****. I've subscribed to that rag for 14 years or something. It's still interesting to read the corporate geezer view on modern music. They still approach electronic music with suspicious ears. But they are also suspicious of anyone who creates an album alone in a studio, whether it's Steve Winwood on _Arc of a Diver_ ('80?) or any new name. --Mark __ <http://www.xnet.com/~mkolmar/BurningRome> ==> MPEG audio clips <== m u s i c : w e b : s o u n d d e s i g n : h t m l : c g i : e t c "We invented machines in order to reduce our work. Now that we have them, we think we should go on working." (John Cage)

quoted 5 lines doesn't anyone remember the review of "i care because you do" in rolling

> doesn't anyone remember the review of "i care because you do" in rolling > stone from early '95? they gave it four stars and said it was some of the > most important music being released at the time. that's how i got started on > this stuff. i saw that review, then i saw the disc in the store and figured > "what the hell?"

Aha -- the HEATHEN IN OUR MIDST! Well it's patently obvious from the fact that you discovered this music though the "mass media" that you have NO RESPECT FOR THE "PLUR IDM SCEEN" and must therefore be SHUNNED as a LOWER FORM OF LIFE than all the CLEARLY SUPERIOR MINDS who discovered it by GROKKING THE MUSIC'S PURITY on a COZMICK GLOBAL PLANE. I guess since you came in through PRINT we'll let you go with a simple KNEECAPPING; if you had discovered it through "MTV" we'd be CRUSHING YOU UNDER A PALLETLOAD OF CINDERBLOCKS now -- and rightly so! DEATH! DEATH to the LATECOMERS TO IDM! -- ::: Lazlo (lazlo@swcp.com; http://www.swcp.com/lazlo)

quoted 13 lines Aha -- the HEATHEN IN OUR MIDST! Well it's patently obvious from the fact

>Aha -- the HEATHEN IN OUR MIDST! Well it's patently obvious from the fact >that you discovered this music though the "mass media" that you have NO >RESPECT FOR THE "PLUR IDM SCEEN" and must therefore be SHUNNED as a LOWER FORM >OF LIFE than all the CLEARLY SUPERIOR MINDS who discovered it by GROKKING THE >MUSIC'S PURITY on a COZMICK GLOBAL PLANE. I guess since you came in through >PRINT we'll let you go with a simple KNEECAPPING; if you had discovered it >through "MTV" we'd be CRUSHING YOU UNDER A PALLETLOAD OF CINDERBLOCKS now -- >and rightly so! > >DEATH! DEATH to the LATECOMERS TO IDM! > >-- >::: Lazlo (lazlo@swcp.com; http://www.swcp.com/lazlo)

wait... i'm maybe sorta wrong about that. that's how i got aphex, but i only tried aphex cause i had heard the orb first and thought they might be in a similar vein. heard the orb on PWEI's two fingers my friends remix frenzy ("home" - orb sweet sin and salvation mix). after hearing that, my heathenism comes out again, because shortly after that, i saw a review in, you guessed it, rolling stone, for orbvs terrarvm. since i had an idea of what it might be like i again said "what the hell?" and picked up that disc. the aphex review came out maybe a month later. does this make me any better or a whole lot worse? alan! __ :::::/\ \:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ::::/ \ \::::::you make the mistake::::::::::: :::/ /\ \ \:::::you judge a man by his race:::: ::/ / /\ \ \::::you go through life:::::::::::: :/ / /__\_\ \:::with egg on your face:::::::::: / / /________\::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: \/___________/::::::::::-beastie boys::::::::::

quoted 63 lines afo wrote:

>afo wrote: > >> im sorry but i disagree... once anything (any kind of expression) >> is brought into the mainstream and is "commercialised" it loses its >> original quality of being pure, innovative, or groundbreaking...c'mon >> when 3rd graders start totting blackdog lunchboxes to school >> youll see what i mean (of course im making a gross exaggeration) > >i've never actually owned a lunch-box, but i might go for one if it >featured that nifty horse-thingy off of spanners... > >> when i say purity im talkin bout the idea of how electronica >> now exists beneath pop culture...its created for people that >> are truely into the music, not for the hopeless trendies >> riding the wave of something thats cool for now... artists know >> this and honestly create brilliant innovative, provacative tunes >> knowing their bona fide audience will respond...we're in it cuz we're >> into it, not because its a cool thing to do for now. > >this all should be about some people's playfulness and creativity and >others' appreciation of these.. as someone recently pondered; do u >actually think idm-related artists would take hints from major labels, >mtv or even lunchbox manufacturers? > >> if electronica gets pushed up into the mainstream the music >> will lose its purity, it will be evently churned out quickly and >> halfheartedly for the trendies, innovation and experimentation given >> a back seat. itll become essentially a moneymaking "hip-nu-thing" >> for entities like mtv, coke, (any huge label) etc. and again more trendies >> will be brainwished into it becuz...its on mtv and coke commercials >> ...so its gotta be cool-un-dope. > >u're talking about the 'scene' related to electronica... yeah, so it >would suffer.. n' u would be squished up against newly departed >indiekids while on concerts. but then again those indiekids would make >it possible n' plausible for smaller acts to come to ..well.. sweden, >just to name a place they haven't been:) and ppl like me wouldn't have >to order their stuff from places like 4th world, god bless'em, and >wouldn't have to plough through 60 emails every day to find out what >they might be missin' and maybe i could actually pursue some other >things in life outside these wretched idm artists thass been makin' me >smile the last 18 months or so. as it's laid out now u have to be >involved at a level thass way above what i consider normal for anyone >not professionally into music or the industry around it. and i think >these musical styles and their artists are way too good to be hooked up >to a ball n' chain like that. > >> i want to spend my life thinkin im darn cool and i want you to be darn cool >> too Oskar... >> >> thanks, but no thanks,,, >> >> afo at mt.osikanawa design labs.1998 > >well thanx, u too, mr afo. u seem like a pleasent person. > >on now: nirvana - smells like teen spirit (yeah well.. sp's one sort of >virtue > n' >honesty's another:) >-- >Oskar Andersson aka Dj Mono > - mono@tbm.scicom.se -

and there you go.... afo at mt.osikanawa design labs.1998

quoted 2 lines and again people are missing the point...

>> and again people are missing the point... >

laszlo writes:

quoted 6 lines If anyone has a point beyond "my ego is too tied to this music for me to be

>If anyone has a point beyond "my ego is too tied to this music for me to be >able to deal comfortably with this artist becoming popular" I haven't seen it, >and I've been reading these arguments for over a decade now. > >-- >::: Lazlo (lazlo@swcp.com; http://www.swcp.com/lazlo)

i want artists to be rich and famous.... im just sayin that i think (opinion here) that when something, anything goes mainstream, it stands a chance to lose a little bit of its original spirit...edge, novelty... (also read: the masses wont take it seriously as we do, because again for the most part theyre riding a trend...) im not saying electronica will (degenerate) if it does hit it big here...its just a thought i feel is worth thinkin about. idm friend w/ different opinions....now bak to the music... afo at mt.osikanawa design labs.1998

quoted 25 lines im sorry but i disagree... once anything (any kind of expression)

>>> im sorry but i disagree... once anything (any kind of expression) >>> is brought into the mainstream and is "commercialised" it loses its >>> original quality of being pure, innovative, or groundbreaking...c'mon >>> when 3rd graders start totting blackdog lunchboxes to school >>> youll see what i mean (of course im making a gross exaggeration) >>> when i say purity im talkin bout the idea of how electronica >>> now exists beneath pop culture...its created for people that >>> are truely into the music, not for the hopeless trendies >>> riding the wave of something thats cool for now... artists know >>> this and honestly create brilliant innovative, provacative tunes >>> knowing their bona fide audience will respond...we're in it cuz we're >>> into it, not because its a cool thing to do for now. >>> if electronica gets pushed up into the mainstream the music >>> will lose its purity, it will be evently churned out quickly and >>> halfheartedly for the trendies, innovation and experimentation given >>> a back seat. itll become essentially a moneymaking "hip-nu-thing" >>> for entities like mtv, coke, (any huge label) etc. and again more trendies >>> will be brainwished into it becuz...its on mtv and coke commercials >>> ...so its gotta be cool-un-dope. >>> i want to spend my life thinkin im darn cool and i want you to be darn cool >>> too Oskar... >>> >>> thanks, but no thanks,,, >>> >>> afo at mt.osikanawa design labs.1998

okay... i guess i'll throw in some thoughts/opinions/whatever. what's the most important thing here? i'll tell ya what i think. guinness lets me tell you that. to thine own self be true. i think that's it in a nutshell. whether you're talking about the artists or the fans or the industry or whatever. if you like the music, listen to it. if other people like it, let them listen to it. just because eight million other people buy an album doesn't mean you should abandon that artist. in some cases that may be true, but not in most. because if eight million people buy something, maybe it's because that something is *good*. why don't eight million people buy everything rephlex or warp or whoever puts out? because they don't even know that it's out there! and how would they? really, i think a lot of us have come across this music purely by chance, maybe because we heard a remix by aphex or the orb or mu-ziq or whoever, or because a friend of ours played something for us or put something on a mix tape. i'm really happy that i've found some new stuff to listen to, whatever the case may be, and i think that even if this was super-popular, i'd still be just as happy listening to it. another thing that gets me is people getting upset about seeing the prodigy on mtv. when have they ever been considered idm? never. i like them, but i don't consider them idm. so what's all the fuss? hell, i'd love to turn on mtv and see an aphex video. it would sure beat the hell out of the goo goo dolls. oh well. i'm being rushed, cause someone wants to play minesweeper. have a good night, and feel free to pound me into the ground. alan! __ :::::/\ \:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ::::/ \ \::::::you make the mistake::::::::::: :::/ /\ \ \:::::you judge a man by his race:::: ::/ / /\ \ \::::you go through life:::::::::::: :/ / /__\_\ \:::with egg on your face:::::::::: / / /________\::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: \/___________/::::::::::-beastie boys::::::::::