IDM Mailing Archive

quoted 1 line ===== Original Message From Drusca <drusca@world.std.com> =====

>===== Original Message From Drusca <drusca@world.std.com> =====

quoted 5 lines As someone already pointed out there's a difference between syncopation and

>As someone already pointed out there's a difference between syncopation and >polyrhythms, though I guess this can get a bit blurry sometimes. I'd say >something is polyrhythmic if you consistently have phrases built in different >time signatures occurring simultaneously - which end up resolving >asymmetrically. Where things get blurry is when you have a pattern in

triplets

quoted 3 lines over a 4/4 beat (especially if there are straight 8ths or 16ths going at the

>over a 4/4 beat (especially if there are straight 8ths or 16ths going at the >same time) which DO resolve at the same point. I guess that would be a >polyrhythm !?

An enthnomusicologist (wah!) I got chatting with from a newsgroup informed me that where you have things running at the same tempo, but with different bar lengths, that is called "collotomy". So far as I know that's also a kind of operation of the lower intestine, but at the time web searches seemed to back up this guy's use of the term! :) So, say 5s against 4s in a polyrhythmic could be counted by two people like this: 1st part: 1 2 3 4 5 1 2 3 4 5 1 2 3 4 5 1 ... 2nd part: 1 2 3 4 1 2 3 4 1 2 3 4 1 ... Whereas collotomy with the same patterns would go like this: 1st part: 1 2 3 4 5 1 2 3 4 5 1 2 3 4 5 1 ... 2nd part: 1 2 3 4 1 2 3 4 1 2 3 4 1 2 3 4 ... Mind you, I'm sure you could have a combination, so that, say, the 1st part, while in moving in groups of 5 _tempo-wise_ is actually a 6 beat phrase. *bleeds from ears* :) Anyway, collotomy is _much_ more common in dance-related stuff, so far as I can tell. Commonly just loops of different length in a common tempo...

quoted 1 line If you wanna hear pretty fucked up polyrhythmic "techno" check out Async

>If you wanna hear pretty fucked up polyrhythmic "techno" check out Async

Sense

quoted 1 line on Imbalance. It's sort of Jeff Mills meets Steve Reich.

>on Imbalance. It's sort of Jeff Mills meets Steve Reich.

Sounds like a fine thing to me. :) Imbalance being the label connected to Robert Henke from Monolake? I have to say another thing that niggles me about how the word is used is that most of those citing great "polyrhythmic" stuff would probably find something genuinely polyrhythmic hideous and unlistenable. Not that I'd blame them ordinarily. :) Michael --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

As someone already pointed out there's a difference between syncopation and polyrhythms, though I guess this can get a bit blurry sometimes. I'd say something is polyrhythmic if you consistently have phrases built in different time signatures occurring simultaneously - which end up resolving asymmetrically. Where things get blurry is when you have a pattern in triplets over a 4/4 beat (especially if there are straight 8ths or 16ths going at the same time) which DO resolve at the same point. I guess that would be a polyrhythm !?

quoted 5 lines by this definition, quite a bit of Hawtin (and acid in general) would be

> >by this definition, quite a bit of Hawtin (and acid in general) would be > >polyrhythmic. lots of 3/4 patterns on top of 4/4 beats. > > I'm sure most stuff as you descibe could be easily counted as all in 12/8 > (ie. swing).

Actually, no. Having patterns in 3 (which never stray from 3) over beats in 4 is probably the most common trick in acid. You also hear patterns in 5/16 over 4/4 beats sometimes. I know at least one Hawtin track that does 5/16 against 4/4 - "In Side" on Consumed. Bam Bam's "Where Is Your Child" is a classic (and awesome) 5/16 against 4/4 track. If you wanna hear pretty fucked up polyrhythmic "techno" check out Async Sense on Imbalance. It's sort of Jeff Mills meets Steve Reich. Drusca np: Ø - Tulkinta --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

quoted 1 line ===== Original Message From Aaron S Michelson <asm2+@andrew.cmu.edu> =====

>===== Original Message From Aaron S Michelson <asm2+@andrew.cmu.edu> =====

quoted 2 lines Sean Booth and Rob Brown continue to push their machinery

>Sean Booth and Rob Brown continue to push their machinery >into questionable realms of polyrhythmic trickery.

Excuse me if I come across as a) a pedant and b) a smart ass, but I can't think of a single track by Autechre that's polyrhythmic. Syncopated, yes, often very, but always only one time signature at any given time, so far as I can tell. The use of "polyrhythmic" to mean "layered rhythms" or "rhythmically complicated" is one of my pet peeves. A bit like when "4 4" used to mean "a kick on every beat". But, hey, the meaning of a word is most usefully defined by its current usage, I guess, so I'll calm down and shut up. :) Michael np. Maxwell's Urban Hang Suite -+- Jet Jaguar MP3s http://mp3.com/jetjag/ -+- --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

On 06/02/2000 16:19, Michael Upton said in living color:

quoted 17 lines ===== Original Message From Aaron S Michelson <asm2+@andrew.cmu.edu> =====

>> ===== Original Message From Aaron S Michelson <asm2+@andrew.cmu.edu> ===== > >> Sean Booth and Rob Brown continue to push their machinery >> into questionable realms of polyrhythmic trickery. > > Excuse me if I come across as a) a pedant and b) a smart ass, but I can't > think of a single track by Autechre that's polyrhythmic. > > Syncopated, yes, often very, but always only one time signature at any given > time, so far as I can tell. > > The use of "polyrhythmic" to mean "layered rhythms" or "rhythmically > complicated" is one of my pet peeves. A bit like when "4 4" used to mean "a > kick on every beat". > > But, hey, the meaning of a word is most usefully defined by its current usage, > I guess, so I'll calm down and shut up. :)

/metoo metoo... I find it funny (and unnerving at the same time) when people refer to "complex time signatures" and such in idm or other popular music when, most of the time, it is really music in 4/4 with slightly more sophisticated rhythms than they're accustomed to. g. -- Guillaume Grenier - gollum@videotron.ca in space there is no north in space there is no south in space there is no east in space there is no west --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

quoted 2 lines Excuse me if I come across as a) a pedant and b) a smart ass, but I can't

>Excuse me if I come across as a) a pedant and b) a smart ass, but I can't >think of a single track by Autechre that's polyrhythmic.

My favorite example of this is the Gescom remix of PBO, especially where it shifts midway from 168BPM to 126BPM, first by emphasizing quarter note tripets, then by shifting the feel of the triplets into fours, then finally by adding accents on the 4-downbeats. Those of you who remember the Hekla mix CD know this is the track he used to shift from tempo A (jungle/hip hop) to tempo b (techno). Tricky shit, no doubt... -Våt NP - Cex "Am I Soundboy" (brilliant, brilliant stuff...) ____________________ Reckankreuzungsklankewerkzeuge PO BOX 382864. Cambridge, MA 02238 http://www.tiac.net/users/sheket/index.html --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

if its still available, people , dont miss out on this mix cd, its insanE! there are, maybe, i dunno, like 50 tracks in each 35min set, all idm... really exellent. check link below i think. does anyone have a tracklisting they could post? i wish i had it. truly impressive. a.

quoted 9 lines My favorite example of this is the Gescom remix of PBO, especially where it

>My favorite example of this is the Gescom remix of PBO, especially where it >shifts midway from 168BPM to 126BPM, first by emphasizing quarter note >tripets, then by shifting the feel of the triplets into fours, then finally >by adding accents on the 4-downbeats. Those of you who remember the Hekla >mix CD know this is the track he used to shift from tempo A (jungle/hip >hop) to tempo b (techno). Tricky shit, no doubt... -Våt >Reckankreuzungsklankewerkzeuge >PO BOX 382864. Cambridge, MA 02238 >http://www.tiac.net/users/sheket/index.html

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-----Original Message----- From: Michael Upton <jetjag@MailAndNews.com> To: idm@hyperreal.org <idm@hyperreal.org> Date: Sunday, February 06, 2000 4:18 PM Subject: (idm) Polyrhythmic Autechre? (was Re: cherry bomb)

quoted 9 lines ===== Original Message From Aaron S Michelson <asm2+@andrew.cmu.edu> =====

>>===== Original Message From Aaron S Michelson <asm2+@andrew.cmu.edu> ===== > >>Sean Booth and Rob Brown continue to push their machinery >>into questionable realms of polyrhythmic trickery. > >Excuse me if I come across as a) a pedant and b) a smart ass, but I can't >think of a single track by Autechre that's polyrhythmic. > >Syncopated, yes, often very, but always only one time signature at any

given

quoted 7 lines time, so far as I can tell.

>time, so far as I can tell. > >The use of "polyrhythmic" to mean "layered rhythms" or "rhythmically >complicated" is one of my pet peeves. A bit like when "4 4" used to mean "a >kick on every beat". > >But, hey, the meaning of a word is most usefully defined by its current

usage,

quoted 3 lines I guess, so I'll calm down and shut up. :)

>I guess, so I'll calm down and shut up. :) > >Michael

could 'polyrhythmic' also be a reference to the countless changing and/or interpretation of a rhythm? after all, time signatures can be counted in more than one way. i believe it could be used that way as well. rather than meaning 'many rhythms' (which would be a direct translation of the word), it could perhaps mean 'many ways to count a rhythm'.

quoted 12 lines np. Maxwell's Urban Hang Suite

> >np. Maxwell's Urban Hang Suite > >-+- >Jet Jaguar MP3s http://mp3.com/jetjag/ >-+- > > >--------------------------------------------------------------------- >To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org >For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org >

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quoted 3 lines could 'polyrhythmic' also be a reference to the countless changing

> could 'polyrhythmic' also be a reference to the countless changing >and/or interpretation of a rhythm? after all, time signatures can be >counted in more than one way.

not really. if something is in 7/8, or 9/8, that's what it is. i know most IDMers don't offer us sheet music, but it'd be fair to say that MOST of it is in 4/4 (which does NOT mean there is a beat each count (i can't recall who said that). if something is truly polyrhythmic, it implies that there are phrases stacked on top of each other in different time signatures.

quoted 2 lines rather than meaning 'many rhythms' (which would be a direct translation of

>rather than meaning 'many rhythms' (which would be a direct translation of >the word), it could perhaps mean 'many ways to count a rhythm'.

you can count in five over something in 17 if you really wanted to, but that's not quite what it means, man. :) zachary zim200@is7.nyu.edu --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

quoted 3 lines ===== Original Message From Jeff Shoemaker <cache@texas.net> =====

>===== Original Message From Jeff Shoemaker <cache@texas.net> ===== >if something is truly polyrhythmic, it implies that there >>are phrases stacked on top of each other in different time signatures.

quoted 2 lines by this definition, quite a bit of Hawtin (and acid in general) would be

>by this definition, quite a bit of Hawtin (and acid in general) would be >polyrhythmic. lots of 3/4 patterns on top of 4/4 beats.

There seems to be an exception made in music theory for stuff that's easily divisible. I'm sure most stuff as you descibe could be easily counted as all in 12/8 (ie. swing). This is presuming he never lays down patterns of 16th notes and 24ths or something... but I don't recall him ever doing that. Michael -+- Jet Jaguar MP3s http://mp3.com/jetjag/ -+- --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

quoted 1 line ===== Original Message From "joseph fitzpatrick" <jfitz@shelby.net> =====

>===== Original Message From "joseph fitzpatrick" <jfitz@shelby.net> =====

quoted 5 lines could 'polyrhythmic' also be a reference to the countless changing

> could 'polyrhythmic' also be a reference to the countless changing >and/or interpretation of a rhythm? after all, time signatures can be >counted in more than one way. i believe it could be used that way as well. >rather than meaning 'many rhythms' (which would be a direct translation of >the word), it could perhaps mean 'many ways to count a rhythm'.

Yeah, it could be, and certainly the meaning of a word isn't normally the sum of its parts (eg. "homophobic", deriving from Greek "same" and "fear"), but it's not the way it has been used in discussion of music for a long long time. Obviously if you go using a word, you can expect people to think you're using the usual meaning unless you tell them otherwise what you're on about. I'd accept that the usual meaning of "polyrhythmic" is now "complicated rhythms", but I just get a little exasperated about the loss of a once useful technical term. There is no longer a word I can use to say "containing different parts in several time signatures simultaneously" without having to be explicit that that's what I meant. Michael np. 'Luxsound' - Parmienter (this is _so_ beautiful, but, again, probably more appropriate to some other list, eg. ambient or drone_on) -+- Jet Jaguar MP3s http://mp3.com/jetjag/ -+- --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

quoted 1 line Actually, no. Having patterns in 3 (which never stray from 3) over beats in

>Actually, no. Having patterns in 3 (which never stray from 3) over beats in

4

quoted 1 line is probably the most common trick in acid. You also hear patterns in 5/16

>is probably the most common trick in acid. You also hear patterns in 5/16

over

quoted 3 lines 4/4 beats sometimes.

>4/4 beats sometimes. > know at least one Hawtin track that does 5/16 against 4/4 - "In Side" on >Consumed.

First off let me say this is one of the best and most-factually-correct threads I've seen on this list in a long time. I too am often aggravated (and try to avoid falling into the trap of) by people calling a "4 4" beat one with a kick on every downbeat, or complex programmed rhythms as polyrhythms. Putting 3/4 patterns over 4/4, etc. is exceptionally easy with the Roland machines (TB-303, TR-909 and TR-808) machines that Hawtin and other acid artists use. The DIN sync protocol used on these machines can easily be split and divided to send a factor of 4 pulses to one machine for every factor of 3 pulses to another for example. I'm oversimplifying of course but the devices commercially available to do this sort of thing make it as easy as pushing a button. This is not to mention the polyrhythmic stuff that can be done simply with different note pattern lengths, etc. nrejack n/p: D'Angelo-Voodoo (thank you IDM people for the suggestion, the RA samples of this album made me sure I had to buy this. I'm loving it. Great, thick funkiness. Fufills my Stevie Wonder fetish.) --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

Drusca wrote:

quoted 4 lines Where things get blurry is when you have a pattern in triplets

> Where things get blurry is when you have a pattern in triplets > over a 4/4 beat (especially if there are straight 8ths or 16ths going at the > same time) which DO resolve at the same point. I guess that would be a > polyrhythm !?

I just wanted to correct myself a little. I just remembered this is called polymetric (I've been out of school for too long). And I could have also said quintuplets, septuplets, etc. instead of triplets. Drusca --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

Yeah, dude. I feel your pain. But hasn't this discussion suggested that you really don't need to describe "music formerly known as polyrhythmic" as this list anyway? At least so far... To up the ante on pedantry, I would suggest that the adjective you're looking for is "polymetric", describing music that has a *common pulse* among different rhythmic layers that suggest different time signatures. Polyrhythmic music, as I understand it, can be polymetric in specific cases, but can also have layers moving at tempos with no rational relationship (in the mathematical sense!) to each other. And this technique does have a foot in the IDM door. For example, there are parts on Hrvatski's "Oiseaux 96-98" that have loops going out of phase with each other: the last minute or so of "Corcoran" has polyrhythm between drums and guitars, and there are other places on the album that allow slightly mis-synced groups of drum loops to slide around each other in what sounds like a polyrhythmic way. Damned if I'm going to look for them now... There are probably much better examples out there than this, but it's just the first thing I thought of when I read your post -- I was just listening to the album earlier today. Cheers, Peter Michael Upton <JetJag@MailAndNews.com> wrote:

quoted 5 lines I'd accept that the usual meaning of "polyrhythmic" is now "complicate

>I'd accept that the usual meaning of "polyrhythmic" is now "complicated >rhythms", but I just get a little exasperated about the loss of a once useful >technical term. There is no longer a word I can use to say "containing >different parts in several time signatures simultaneously" without having to >be explicit that that's what I meant.

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quoted 2 lines Excuse me if I come across as a) a pedant and b) a smart ass, but I can't

>Excuse me if I come across as a) a pedant and b) a smart ass, but I can't >think of a single track by Autechre that's polyrhythmic.

Also... The Lexus remix on Cert18. Count that sucka out. Serious metric modulation. Try mixing that one in one of these days...-Våt ____________________ Reckankreuzungsklankewerkzeuge PO BOX 382864. Cambridge, MA 02238 http://www.tiac.net/users/sheket/index.html --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

Just to include the application to particular music on this thread, Phthalocyanine seem to use a combination of polyrhythms and polymetrics on some of their tracks, especially on the Navy Warships release. I was also listening to Mouse on Mars - Instrumentals - and that track Pegel Gesetz just seems to have different shifts in time signatures (some audible and I'm sure some inaudible). Merzbow also incorporated this effectively in a recent live set of theirs I saw. A_Zed --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org