IDM Mailing Archive

Meat Beat Manifesto:

quoted 3 lines This is two CDs just jam packed with exceptional noises. Better

>This is two CDs just jam packed with exceptional noises. Better >than every so-called "trip hop" release on Ninja Tune and Mo'Wax >put together.

Lets not get carried away here. This is at best a medicore record. I just love to see all the bands scrambling for a peice of the trip-hop/jungle pie (a KFMDM jungle track? Get serious...). Beware of trip-hopers wearing leather pants. Leave it to the kids that know how to rock beats. The best thing to ever happen to Meat Beat Manifesto was the RDJ remix. Its all gone downhill from there... /""'' /"'RESH Live and Direct from the G-Spot Orange County, California, USA

ph -> Fresh <GMerchan@gnn.com> >> This is two CDs just jam packed with exceptional noises. Better >> than every so-called "trip hop" release on Ninja Tune and Mo'Wax >> put together. ph> ph> Lets not get carried away here. This is at best a medicore record. ph> I just love to see all the bands scrambling for a peice of the ph> trip-hop/jungle pie (a KFMDM jungle track? Get serious...). Beware ph> of trip-hopers wearing leather pants. Leave it to the kids that ph> know how to rock beats. The best thing to ever happen to Meat Beat ph> Manifesto was the RDJ remix. Its all gone downhill from there... Oh, good heavens. Meat Beat are "cashing in" on techno? The group that gave the world _Storm The Studio_, _Dog Star Man_, and "Helter Skelter" / "Radio Babylon" (the last two of which I _still_ hear on a regular basis at parties) helped _create_ modern techno as we know it. It would take an incredibly myopic perspective to say that MBM are somehow newcomers to the techno scene. And as for that crack about leather pants, calm down yourself. I think it's worth keeping in mind that at least one of the members of Probe IDM heavyweights Teste is very fond of black eyeliner and that Jeff Mills got his music-making start in "The Final Cut", a fine industro outfit on WaxTrax! (or was it Nettwerk? I always get them confused). In any case, one could argue that he certainly knows how to rock beats, no? There are MANY, MANY technoheads with dark industrial pasts (eh, Alan?). Don't be such a priss. ozymandias . . . the self-reflecting image of a narcotized mind . . . ozymandias G desiderata ogd@organic.com Desperate, Deathless (415)278-5674 http://www.organic.com/Staff/ogd/ ::AOAIOXXYSZ::

On Tue, 4 Jun 1996, ozymandias G desiderata wrote:

quoted 8 lines And as for that crack about leather pants, calm down yourself. I think

> And as for that crack about leather pants, calm down yourself. I think > it's worth keeping in mind that at least one of the members of Probe IDM > heavyweights Teste is very fond of black eyeliner and that Jeff Mills got > his music-making start in "The Final Cut", a fine industro outfit on > WaxTrax! (or was it Nettwerk? I always get them confused). In any case, > one could argue that he certainly knows how to rock beats, no? There are > MANY, MANY technoheads with dark industrial pasts (eh, Alan?). Don't be > such a priss.

Here in Chile you're more likely to see someone at a rave with leather trousers than someone at a death metal gig. Strange who club culture can be around the world.

quoted 3 lines ozymandias

> > ozymandias >

Tim

The best thing to ever happen to Meat Beat Manifesto was the RDJ remix. Its all gone downhill from there... I do not know about that... RDJ is cool and all but Jack is THE MAN. Making fucked up "trip hop" (I hate that term) type music LONG before it was vogue. I have not heard Subliminal Sandwich yet but I have a lot of respect for Dangers... Nate Harrison DIGITAL MAGICIAN http://www.globalwise.com/DIGIMAGICIAN/ WWW Authors and Electronic Imaging Specialists

James Gill spews:

quoted 5 lines Hey Ross, I have heard Download, and consider them miles away from the

>Hey Ross, I have heard Download, and consider them miles away from the >cheesy old Industrial mattadores still crankin' the tunes out their >ass'. And what not. I still think all the records on Reload, Peacefrog, >Rephlex, and Detroit style sounds are miles ahead of Download. It's all >linear, and the front of the line is definitely not Industrial.

What a screwed up view of music. The linear model is just about the worst one possible. It's not a line. It's not even a tree. It's a big freaky acyclic graph or something with vectors criss-crossing each other like stoned spaghetti. (Reminds me of a cool diagram I once saw in Technology Works on the relationship between all the industrial bands. There was a legend at the bottom: "Adrian Sherwood omitted to improve readability.") Speaking of old farts, the two CDs I just picked up are super freaky wild... let's have a look: Meat Beat Manifesto - Subliminal Sandwich This is two CDs just jam packed with exceptional noises. Better than every so-called "trip hop" release on Ninja Tune and Mo'Wax put together. With over 140 mins of music included, I don't even know where to begin. Disc 1 is more on the uptempo tip, with fantastic beats and stoney basslines all over the place. Vocals are nowhere near as prominent here as they are on previous MBM releases. Disc 2 is just plain fucked up weird shit. Laid back techno experiments, 13-minute freakout pieces... Yow. Seriously Out There. After the disappointment of "Satyricon" this one is back on form... Way back. Download - The Eyes Of Stanley Pain Again, I am happy to put the disappointment of Furnace/Microscopic in the past. This is much more in the techno beat camp, but once again cevin key 'n' pals just go further out than most of the synth twiddlers. Yet again, words fail me. And that must be a good thing. -- Name: Jon Email: jsd@cyborganic.com Web: http://www.cyborganic.com/bass-kittens/

quoted 10 lines Hey Ross, I have heard Download, and consider them miles away from the

>> Hey Ross, I have heard Download, and consider them miles away from the >> cheesy old Industrial matadors still crankin' the tunes out their >> ass'. And what not. I still think all the records on Reload, Peacefrog, >> RePHLeX, and Detroit style sounds are miles ahead of Download. It's all >> linear, and the front of the line is definitely not Industrial. > > What a screwed up view of music. The linear model is just about the worst > one possible. It's not a line. It's not even a tree. It's a big freaky > acyclic graph or something with vectors criss-crossing each other like > stoned spaghetti.

Exactly. The sonic palette is wide, and a palette is a big round thingy that sweeps out in all dimensions. Linear my arse. That said, I'm still somewhat inclined to agree with the original poster about Reload/RePHLeX vs. Download, although it's somewhat of an apples to oranges comparison (plus, I haven't heard "The Eyes Of Stanley Pain" yet, so I can't rightly judge). But that comes from my own personal biases, they strike me as being still back in the Chaos and Industrial camps but sticking their toes into the Techno waters, whereas I kept wishing they'd follow Dwayne's lead and leave the past behind and dive in head-first. On the other hand, I've yet to hear a single Techno record - even FSoL's - that's produced anywhere near as well as the Download recordings. People who could care less should borrow the Download CDs from someone just to listen to the sonic quality of the production, if nothing else. And speaking of people I'd wished dived into Techno head-first ...

quoted 11 lines Meat Beat Manifesto - Subliminal Sandwich

> Meat Beat Manifesto - Subliminal Sandwich > > This is two CDs just jam-packed with exceptional noises. Better than every > so-called "trip hop" release on Ninja Tune and Mo'Wax put together. With > over 140 mins of music included, I don't even know where to begin. Disc 1 > is more on the uptempo tip, with fantastic beats and stoney basslines all > over the place. Vocals are nowhere near as prominent here as they are on > previous MBM releases. Disc 2 is just plain fucked up weird shit. Laid > back techno experiments, 13-minute freakout pieces... Yow. Seriously Out > There. After the disappointment of "Satyricon" this one is back on form... > Way back.

I should have mentioned it before, but the current issue of "Future Music" (June) has a "Subliminal Sandwich" track ("Electric People") on the obligatory CD/CD-ROM. Great to hear Jack finally embrace Techno whole-heartedly (at least in part; I heard "Asbestos Lead Asbestos" in a store and wasn't taken with it ... although that *is* a cover song, so ... ). There's a sample weaving through it that bugs me, but otherwise it's great to hear a MBM Techno track. (Especially after going to so many raves lately with lots of Tr*p H*p/Phunky stuph that sounds like it all had Meat Beat for a Dad.) Really looking forward to Organic now ... y'all come down, y'hear? - Greg

quoted 4 lines I can't rightly judge). But that comes from my own personal biases, they

> I can't rightly judge). But that comes from my own personal biases, they > strike me as being still back in the Chaos and Industrial camps but sticking > their toes into the Techno waters, whereas I kept wishing they'd follow > Dwayne's lead and leave the past behind and dive in head-first.

What's wrong with chaos in a techno/idm context? Flex your ears man! Abandon the dance for a time, just sit back and let your head spin. Sometimes nothing is more satisfying than struggling to grab onto some kind of solid foundation. But that's just me. A great deal of innovation comes from the recombination of elements of different types of music -- from mixing European art music and folk melodies, up through mixing old-style industrial, industrial-dance and techno (or industrial, metal and jungle, etc. etc.). --Mark Kolmar

Hey jon, are you that punter from the bass kittens? Well, I guess that explains why your take on music is "non-linear". Your ep is pretty cross country, if you know what I mean. Some good scratchin' and riffin', and developing into a house feelin monster with jazz vibes. Understood. Anyway, can't music(such as "idm" and new electronica in general), in all it's boundary breaking, be seen as advanced and in the front of the "Line"? That which is "pushing the envelope" of music is considered by me to be the only thing worth listening to, in a world of music that seems to be totally uninspired and thoughtless. So, if I discriminate against old ideas and rehashed sounds, it's because I'm sick of hearing the same shit over and over, and I consider those tunes to be musically disadvantaged to, say, the Aphex Twin or Autechre(or Egyptian Lover: If you don't know him, that's your own fault!!). James Benjamin Gill-----jgill@u.arizona.edu********************************** JUST BOUGHT EGYPTIAN LOVER'S GREATEST HITS, AND I LOVE IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

At 15:16 4-06-96, you wrote:

quoted 9 lines Meat Beat Manifesto:

> >Meat Beat Manifesto: >>This is two CDs just jam packed with exceptional noises. Better >>than every so-called "trip hop" release on Ninja Tune and Mo'Wax >>put together. > >Lets not get carried away here. This is at best a medicore record. >I just love to see all the bands scrambling for a peice of the >trip-hop/jungle pie (a KFMDM jungle track? Get serious...).

Hope you're not trying to say MBM is.. With Helter Skelter MBM made jungle five years ago. MBM cannot be compared with any band anyway. gonzales - delsin http://wwwedu.cs.utwente.nl/~wielen

Gonzales said once upon a time:

quoted 3 lines Hope you're not trying to say MBM is.. With Helter Skelter MBM

>Hope you're not trying to say MBM is.. With Helter Skelter MBM >made jungle five years ago. MBM cannot be compared with any band >anyway.

We're stretching the definition of jungle here. Unless there's some 110 bpm jungle out there.

At 3:16 PM 6/4/96, Fresh/Gonzi Merchan wrote:

quoted 6 lines Meat Beat Manifesto:

>Meat Beat Manifesto: >>This is two CDs just jam packed with exceptional noises. Better >>than every so-called "trip hop" release on Ninja Tune and Mo'Wax >>put together. > >Lets not get carried away here. This is at best a medicore record.

well, you're entitled to your opinion of course, but i wonder how you arrived at this conclusion.

quoted 4 lines I just love to see all the bands scrambling for a peice of the

>I just love to see all the bands scrambling for a peice of the >trip-hop/jungle pie (a KFMDM jungle track? Get serious...). Beware >of trip-hopers wearing leather pants. Leave it to the kids that >know how to rock beats.

where would most of these kids be without meat beat manifesto? you're knocking one of the most intense and talented bands to ever come down the pike. most of jack's stuff from 1987 sounds fresh even today. "suck hard" puts the distorto antics of the rephlex crew to shame. everybody i know in the dance scene gives major props and respect to jack.

quoted 2 lines The best thing to ever happen to Meat Beat

>The best thing to ever happen to Meat Beat >Manifesto was the RDJ remix. Its all gone downhill from there...

you are just baiting me, right? *sigh* jon

quoted 6 lines Hope you're not trying to say MBM is.. With Helter Skelter MBM

>Hope you're not trying to say MBM is.. With Helter Skelter MBM >made jungle five years ago. MBM cannot be compared with any band >anyway. > >gonzales - delsin >http://wwwedu.cs.utwente.nl/~wielen

MBM cannot be compared with any other band only if you forget a few Bay Area bands like Disposable Heroes and Consolidated. Same beats, same themes, same everything. Whether they're the best of the bunch is worthy of a good debate, but don't say no one sounds like them! -Phil [----------] [---] [-----] [-----] [-----] [----------] [---] [---] [---] [---] [---] [---] [---] [---] [---] [---] [---] [---] [---] [---] [---] [---] [----------] [----------] [---] [---] [----------] [----------] [---] [---] [---] [---] [---] [---] [---] [---] [---] [---] [---] [--------] [-----] [-----] [---] [-----] [----------] Home is where the stereo is!

On Wed, 5 Jun 1996, Philip Evans wrote:

quoted 4 lines MBM cannot be compared with any other band only if you forget a few Bay

> MBM cannot be compared with any other band only if you forget a few Bay > Area bands like Disposable Heroes and Consolidated. Same beats, same > themes, same everything. Whether they're the best of the bunch is worthy of > a good debate, but don't say no one sounds like them!

When STORM THE STUDIO came out, Disposable Heroes were still the Beatnigs, and Consolidated's members were still making college rock music. MBM did it first and better (and managed to avoid didacticism as well, something I can't say for the other two groups). Matthew L. Weber Library Assistant University of Michigan Music Library Almost all the nations of the world travel this circle; to begin with, they are barbarous; they become conquerors and well-ordered nations; this order permits them to grow, and they become refined; refinement enfeebles them, and they return to barbarism. Charles Montesquieu, 1689-1755, _Thoughts and Fragments_

quoted 8 lines Hope you're not trying to say MBM is.. With Helter Skelter MBM

>>Hope you're not trying to say MBM is.. With Helter Skelter MBM >>made jungle five years ago. MBM cannot be compared with any band >>anyway. > >MBM cannot be compared with any other band only if you forget a few Bay >Area bands like Disposable Heroes and Consolidated. Same beats, same >themes, same everything. Whether they're the best of the bunch is worthy of >a good debate, but don't say no one sounds like them!

Uh, since Dangers produced both of those bands' records, isn't this a little like saying "Nobody sounds like the Aphex Twin, except Polygon Window and AFX"? C. -- cspot@hyperreal.com (Chris.Hilker)

At 11:00 PM 6/4/96, James B Gill wrote:

quoted 1 line Hey jon, are you that punter from the bass kittens?

>Hey jon, are you that punter from the bass kittens?

guilty as charged.

quoted 4 lines Well, I guess that

>Well, I guess that >explains why your take on music is "non-linear". Your ep is pretty cross >country, if you know what I mean. Some good scratchin' and riffin', and >developing into a house feelin monster with jazz vibes. Understood.

thanks, so you at least see where i'm coming from.

quoted 3 lines Anyway, can't music(such as "idm" and new electronica in general), in all

>Anyway, can't music(such as "idm" and new electronica in general), in all >it's boundary breaking, be seen as advanced >and in the front of the "Line"?

no. music is not a line. just cos synths are new technology doesn't make synth music "the front of the line." there is some totally weak ass shit being coughed up by nerds with drumboxes and synthesizers every day. compare it to some old Kool 'n' The Gang or something - they are The Bomb... much more innovative and technically proficient even with 20 year old technology. every technology and style is new at some point. hell, when they invented the PIANO people were freaking out. (and never mind the PLAYER PIANO... EVIL!! It DOES ALL THE WORK FOR YOU... just like a sequencer, eh?) in its day, the violin was considered a direct line to satan. certain COMBINATIONS OF NOTES were considered demonic. you know what happened when Stravinsky's "Rite Of Spring" debuted? Riots in the fucking street!! people have never understood what is happening around them, and it has nothing to do with technology - it's all to do with ignorance.

quoted 3 lines That which is "pushing the envelope" of

> That which is "pushing the envelope" of >music is considered by me to be the only thing worth listening to, in a >world of music that seems to be totally uninspired and thoughtless.

you are really just discriminating in your own way, under the guise of being "open minded". It's sad, really. so much self-delusion.

quoted 5 lines So,

>So, >if I discriminate against old ideas and rehashed sounds, it's because I'm >sick of hearing the same shit over and over, and I consider those tunes >to be musically disadvantaged to, say, the Aphex Twin or Autechre(or >Egyptian Lover: If you don't know him, that's your own fault!!).

it seems strange to me to get so worked up about vibrating air molecules. music is the best art form precisely because it is so abstract. tom ellard of severed heads once gave me some free advice, and now i'm gonna share it with you... find whatever genre of music you hate, i mean REALLY hate, and sit down and SERIOUSLY listen to it. you might not end up liking it but you will probably learn something. -- Name: Jon Email: jsd@cyborganic.com Web: http://www.cyborganic.com/bass-kittens/

Jon Drukman said once upon a time:

quoted 5 lines music is the best art form precisely because it is so abstract. tom ellard

>music is the best art form precisely because it is so abstract. tom ellard >of severed heads once gave me some free advice, and now i'm gonna share it >with you... find whatever genre of music you hate, i mean REALLY hate, and >sit down and SERIOUSLY listen to it. you might not end up liking it but >you will probably learn something.

Jon is right! I used to really hate country, then I listened to Johnny Cash, Patsy Cline, and Waylon Jennings. I learned that it isn't "country" I hate, its "young country" I hate!