IDM Mailing Archive

On Wed, 19 Jan 2000, Q-Bot Eye wrote:

quoted 5 lines I keep hearing about the lack of support for live performances of

> I keep hearing about the lack of support for live performances of > IDM... and I wonder how true this is. I for one, would go out to watch > it if I knew it was around. Also, I love playing live. What is it that > keeps people from going to see live elctronic music (other than at > parties)?

I dunno- whenever I play live most people just sort of stand there confused unless I play some of my hardcore. It's like they don't know what they're supposed to be doing. This is kind of like back when jungle first broke, and people weren't sure if they were supposed to dance, listen or just leave the room and listen to some acid hosue. (Most chose the last one at first, which is about where the IDM scene is sitting right now too, except they leave for trance instead.)

quoted 9 lines About all this talking about commercials and IDM and Dn'B and whether

> About all this talking about commercials and IDM and Dn'B and whether > it is mainstream or not, blahblahblah... I think part of the problem is > that people (general generic "normal" people) have a hard time with > instrumental music in general. People need to have the feelings of a > song jammed down their throats with words, rather than appreciating the > subtlety of just listening to the music. Electronic music rarely > reaches the general public unless it has somone singing over it (ala > cher, madona, ace of bass), or unless it has some image placed over it > (ala the heavy use of it in commercials, tv, movies, etc...)

Yea, that's a very American thing- people have a really hard time getting into anything that they can't associate an image with. I think our mass media has done this too us (particulalry TV and MTV especially). A lot of my friends who aren't into electronic music always ask me what I do when I perform live- they can't imagine just watching me with a laptop and a drum machine. These are the same people that saw Kid 606 open for Fantomas and thought he was boring, though, so screw them. :) -- :: atomly :: atomly@atomly.com | atomly@atdot.org | atomly@cyrus.net http://www.atomly.com | http://www.mp3.com/atomly [CELL|(888)522.3830] | [CELL|(701)729.1631] | [HOME|(651)748.8676] --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

quoted 12 lines Maybe the lack of live music (IDM) also has to do with this. Many

>Maybe the lack of live music (IDM) also has to do with this. Many >people are not content to just sit and listen to the music... they need >to be stimulated visually too... this is sort of sad to me... I mean, >it is meant to be listened to, so what's the problem? I would have no >problem going to a show of electronic music, where everyone just sits >in chairs (or couches maybe?) and appreciates the sounds, and that's >it. No light show, etc... I mean, you sit and listen to it at home, so >why wouldn't you go see it live? Perhaps if it was exact copies of >music you already have recordings of, this would not be exciting, but >if I'm not mistaken, don't most people who do live electronic music do >it semi-improvised at least, and usually play new/different material, >or at least different versions?

Amen to that. There's going to have to be a paradigm shift in the way that live IDM shows are performed.

quoted 10 lines -Andy!

>-Andy! >__________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. >http://im.yahoo.com > >--------------------------------------------------------------------- >To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org >For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org >

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quoted 2 lines Amen to that. There's going to have to be a paradigm shift

> Amen to that. There's going to have to be a paradigm shift > in the way that live IDM shows are performed.

Word. As far as I'm concerned, if the artist cannot demonstrate real-time virtuosic skill, if they don't have an interesting stage show (I'm not talking lasers), or if they don't have some kind of charismatic, hypnotic stage personality, then there's no point in going to see them live on stage (you know, the rawk format) at all. It's like going to see a composer write music on paper or watching someone paint. It's even a bit degrading sometimes to go see an artist I like, only to see them spin records or move a mouse around. I feel like a rawk hero worshipper of the lowest kind. Of course, many listmembers would likely pay to be in the same room as Aphex Twin even if he did not perform at all. I won't. EXCEPTION 1: Seeing *underground* artists do experimental live shows whose format violates my above rules is okay -- since usually I'm not familiar with their work, and live shows can help give me an idea of what the artist is all about, while also supporting the scene and their artistic development. The formality of the 'concert' format is great for encouraging discourse about the music itself, which is not likely if the music was played as background music. EXCEPTION 2: Banging dance events where the artist's presence is irrelevant to the fact that the "scene" and sound system are so thrilling that attention to a stage or an artist is pointless. -Cf --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

quoted 4 lines I would have no

>>I would have no >>problem going to a show of electronic music, where everyone just sits >>in chairs (or couches maybe?) and appreciates the sounds, and that's >>it.

yeah, that would seem to be the only way some of this stuff could fly as a live show. definately the "idm act at a rock club" things seems foredoomed. I've only gone to a couple live shows of "idm" at clubs, namely Push Button Objects and Nobekazu Takemura, and the fundamental problems of those shows dampened my enthusiasm for checking out other such acts live. Problem 1: There was no live sound coming off the stage. The PA, in both cases, would have been perfectly servicable to augment a band with live instruments, but was in no way satisfactory as the sole sound source for sonicly complex music. I think they would have needed a relatively high end sound system to pull off their sounds. Problem 2: Very very little energy coming across from the performers. Too much dependence on pre-recorded, pre-programmed material undermines the immediacy of a performance. yeah, it COULD work theoretically. But compared to good live music really performed live, what I've seen was incredibly underwhelming, more like reviewing someone's portfolio. I think a live show should really give you something intense that you just can't get at home listening to a cd. well, if someone wants to point me in the direction of where to actually hear great live shows of electronic music in New York, I'd be most grateful. (I gather Pan Sonic is at the Knitting Factory this weekend, btw.) k --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

I think the problem with a lot of IDM is that it is quite a personal high... for comparison, a night of 'bangin' techno gets people together in dancing, Mogwai (f'rinstance) give you a feeling of sharing the euphoria of the music... they're communally enjoyed. All that's added to most IDM in the live arena is the chattering. I suppose that if people did it right (ie actually created the music live or improvised a bit) then the feeling of joint exploration would make it worthwhile. Kind of like live jazz. But something is definitely needed to differentiate the live experience from just staying at home. On the other hand, it would help if we showed up more often. My tuppence Jorkens In a message dated 1/19/00 9:44:34 AM GMT Standard Time, jotai@mindspring.com writes: << >Maybe the lack of live music (IDM) also has to do with this. Many >people are not content to just sit and listen to the music... they need >to be stimulated visually too... this is sort of sad to me... I mean, >it is meant to be listened to, so what's the problem? I would have no >problem going to a show of electronic music, where everyone just sits >in chairs (or couches maybe?) and appreciates the sounds, and that's >it. No light show, etc... I mean, you sit and listen to it at home, so >why wouldn't you go see it live? Perhaps if it was exact copies of >music you already have recordings of, this would not be exciting, but >if I'm not mistaken, don't most people who do live electronic music do >it semi-improvised at least, and usually play new/different material, >or at least different versions? Amen to that. There's going to have to be a paradigm shift in the way that live IDM shows are performed. >> --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

i think we will see the whole live electronic music situation become really exciting over the next few years. now that people are learning to use more interactive types of software (i.e. MAX, supercollider, lisa, etc etc), live electronic music is becoming more interesting and more live. instead of someone just playing tracks from their laptop. regardless its always wonderful to hear the electronic music you love on a really loud system. that is one reason for more live performances. i hope we will be seeing more live electronic performances that are really creative and spontaneous. i dont think we should have the mentality of seeing a performance anymore though. we shouldnt expect to see lots of fancy lights and glam and glitter and entertainment and dancing (although thats always nice). i recently saw jim orourke do a duet with ikue mori in NY. it was one of the best live electronic shows that ive ever been to. and for those that saw funkstorung last year, it goes to show that people can put on a good live show. although part of an artists preparation and craft should be (if they want to play live) to put together a really solid live show. anyways enough of that. later, greg davis autumn records http://www.amug.org/~jkdavis/autumn Chris Fahey wrote:

quoted 34 lines Amen to that. There's going to have to be a paradigm shift

> > Amen to that. There's going to have to be a paradigm shift > > in the way that live IDM shows are performed. > > Word. > > As far as I'm concerned, if the artist cannot demonstrate real-time > virtuosic skill, if they don't have an interesting stage show (I'm not > talking lasers), or if they don't have some kind of charismatic, hypnotic > stage personality, then there's no point in going to see them live on stage > (you know, the rawk format) at all. It's like going to see a composer write > music on paper or watching someone paint. > > It's even a bit degrading sometimes to go see an artist I like, only to see > them spin records or move a mouse around. I feel like a rawk hero worshipper > of the lowest kind. Of course, many listmembers would likely pay to be in > the same room as Aphex Twin even if he did not perform at all. I won't. > > EXCEPTION 1: Seeing *underground* artists do experimental live shows whose > format violates my above rules is okay -- since usually I'm not familiar > with their work, and live shows can help give me an idea of what the artist > is all about, while also supporting the scene and their artistic > development. The formality of the 'concert' format is great for encouraging > discourse about the music itself, which is not likely if the music was > played as background music. > > EXCEPTION 2: Banging dance events where the artist's presence is irrelevant > to the fact that the "scene" and sound system are so thrilling that > attention to a stage or an artist is pointless. > > -Cf > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org > For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

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quotes are from Q-Bot Eye's initial post....

quoted 2 lines Maybe the lack of live music (IDM) also has to do with this. Many

>Maybe the lack of live music (IDM) also has to do with this. Many >people are not content to just sit and listen to the music...

i don't want to complain about the mainstream's reluctance to embrace instrumental music. instrumental music reduces the human element and abstracts beauty, and therefore requires a greater feat of listening to be appreciated. for this reason is the idea of the greater chill space a good idea. i don't quarrel about commercial radio anymore, because i've come to accept that what i love is music, and what radio is is pop stars and anthems (although manifested through music, it is not their prime raison d'être)...

quoted 4 lines I would have no problem going to a show of electronic music, where

>I would have no problem going to a show of electronic music, where >everyone >just sits in chairs (or couches maybe?) and appreciates the >sounds, and that's >it.

yes, yes, this sort of relaxed environment for discussion and careful listening to music that is just a bit unfulfilling on ones home stereo. an experience that is greater than the music alone. i always imagine, as jorkens also mentioned quite appropriately, the scene of the jazz nightclub : a large hazy room of small tables where people shift their attention from a low stage to their tablemates, drinking/smoking/etc. in a modern context, other drugs may be involved. it is my understanding that idm began with the electronic chill music of patterson and like musicians in the sitting rooms of raves, which are roughly like the above, but much less elegant, and more of an escape than an event unto themselves. i wouldn't know, i wasn't really there. it goes without saying that the live music would have to involve more 'virtuosic skill' (although electronic music in its emphasis on timbre and devaluation of melody is harder to concoct dynamically, as the composing process tends to involve lengthy choices between tones, etc.), as chris fahey said, than it currently does. more use of handmade electronic instruments and non-algorithmic composition techniques would be in order. any other ideas ? more record-rubbing ?

quoted 3 lines The PA [...] was in no way satisfactory as the sole sound source for sonicly

>The PA [...] was in no way satisfactory as the sole sound source for sonicly >complex music. I think they would have needed a relatively high end sound >system to pull off their sounds.

--kurt it is true. with all the technology available to us, it's ridiculous that complex music such as idm is available only in stereo. if we look back to early electronic music such as musique concrete or electro-accoustic (of which idm is certainly a descendant), it was customary to have twelve or more speakers, to ensure that each member of the audience (sitting comfortably) received a different performance. a variety of speakers of high quality are important to the music. rock still makes sense on a cheap ghetto blaster. idm, snobby as it may sound, depends on fancy equipment.

quoted 1 line No light show, etc.

>No light show, etc.

no, i think there should be some kind of visuals ! sorry if i'm a bit obsessed with this stuff but i have recently been convinced that science's primary use is psychedelics and sensory diversions. perhaps nothing like what is seen at raves (crazy green lasers, fog machines), but some kind of quiet and attractive displays, perhaps the classic projection screen (FILM!) or digital lava lamps. okay, those don't exist yet. it would be expensive, but it could be done. my glamorized notion of this environment involves large amounts of technology to create a truly beautiful and--i am pretentious, perhaps--modern environment. .af. ps; to people in sf who are interested in electro-accoustic, or in the idea of sitting still and concentrating on sound, i recommend a very cool experience called the 'audium'. i don't know how known or unknown it is. in short, it involves sitting in a pitch-dark dome-shaped room and concentrating on sounds swirling around the 140+ speakers set up inside the walls. very cool. email me for details. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

quoted 3 lines i dont think we should have the mentality of seeing a

>i dont think we should have the mentality of seeing a >performance anymore though. we shouldnt expect to see lots of fancy lights and >glam and glitter and entertainment and dancing (although thats always nice).

Nice, schmice, it should be mandatory. electronic music artists should start having their own dance troops. I mean, hell, they're getting paid as much as a whole band, and then they just show up solo with their powerbook? hello? think: smoldering go go boys with oiled chests doing synchronized movements. just wait till you see the difference in audience reaction!!! but seriously, I think the thing the artists need to think about IS performance. and there are an infinate number of possible solutions to this problem. standing around with a computer is okay for a lounge or concert hall, but the more theatrical setting of a rock club needs to be agressively and imaginatively exploited, not awkwardly tolerated. Come on, you fuckin geniuses!!! Put your damn thinking caps on!!!!!! --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

kurt wrote:

quoted 1 line Come on, you fuckin geniuses!!! Put your damn thinking caps on!!!!!!

> Come on, you fuckin geniuses!!! Put your damn thinking caps on!!!!!!

Not safe...you might end up with, oh, I dunno, neon dancing bears or something :) Or Duke Brownstar... laz --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org