IDM Mailing Archive

Kraftwerk. Computer World. Thirty-four Minutes. Thirty-eight Seconds. While I haven't heard the new RDJ, I certainly won't be judging the quality of the release on its *length*. If you really think it's too short, play it twice. :-) -- Adam J Weitzman --- Individual, Inc. --- weitzman@individual.com -- -- VISIT US AT: http://www.individual.com -- -- Jeff George, Atlanta Falcons QB, on refusing a trade to Seattle: -- -- "Over the past few years I have made some mistakes, and I just -- -- wanted to make sure I made the right one this time." --

Greg Earle wrote:

quoted 4 lines Kraftwerk.

> > > Kraftwerk. > > And what of it? It was released in the pre-CD era.

And this has *what* to do with the quality of the release? I'm obviously a complete and utter failure as a music critic, because I am completely missing the point here. So a CD can hold 80 minutes of music. This means that unless your full-length CD clocks in at, say, 50 minutes or higher, that it must be an artistic travesty, just because the medium can hold more?

quoted 2 lines So now I get to buy an old album's worth of music for 1 1/2 to 2 times the

> So now I get to buy an old album's worth of music for 1 1/2 to 2 times the > price? Phuque *that*, girlfriend.

It's your wallet. *shrug* I personally am concerned with "value" for my money, not "quantity." I'd rather spend $20 on, say, The Orb's recent _Peel_Sessions_ CD (36:41) than $7 on many other, much longer releases.

quoted 2 lines I suggest some historical perspective. Older list members, go ask your Dads

> I suggest some historical perspective. Older list members, go ask your Dads > about when the switchover from 78's to 33 1/3 took place.

I am too young to remember 78s, but there have been plenty of 7" 45s over the years where you could have *easily* fit the A-side and B-side on the same side of the disc and put one or two more songs on the other side, but I don't remember anyone complaining about that. Just because you *can* put more music on something doesn't mean you should. One of the primary criticism's of Red Hot Chili Peppers' _Blood_Sugar_Sex_Magik_ was that eight or nine of the tracks were really good and the other eight or nine could have been left off. You'd have had a 40-minute release instead of a 74-minute one, but it might very well have been better that way.

quoted 4 lines Nobody says a record has to be pushing the 74-80 minute limit. But the medium

> Nobody says a record has to be pushing the 74-80 minute limit. But the medium > costs more for us poor slags (read: end consumers) to buy. If you want to > release a 32 minute album, by all means, go ahead. But don't ask the punters > to pay full price for it. Music costs *far* too much these days as it is.

This gets into the question of what, exactly constitutes an "album," "EP" or "single?" I think that interpretation should be left to the artist. If you don't agree with the artist, then you can withhold your dollars from him/her. But as far as I can see, it in no way impinges on the quality of the music on the release. The only time I'm upset about the length of a release is when it is a greatest hits package. There's no excuse for not filling one of those up. But if the artist decides that "This collection of new music shall be an 'album,'" then the only way I can argue with that contention is to not buy the release. I think there are two factors in play here: (1) Most of us think we want to own the new Aphex Twin album, but we're not sure if the 32-minute "value" for the money will be worth it. Since we're so used to getting 55-80 minutes of music for our hard-earned cash, it's a legitimate question. I approach it as, "Will I receive x amount of enjoyment from this CD?" If x is greater than the price tag, I buy it. If not, I don't. Is 32 minutes of great music worth more than 70 minutes of very-good music? Do you even buy very-good music, preferring to buy only great music and save yourself some money? That's for each of us to decide on our own. (And yes, you don't always know beforehand and get burned sometimes, but that's a risk always, not just with this release.) (2) Aphex Twin has a history of, shall we say, seeming to rest on his laurels and take the piss from us all. Is he doing it again by releasing a 32- minute CD and expecting us all to salivate over it no matter what's on it? None of us wants to feel like a sucker, and all of us want to be the one to point out that the emperor has no clothes. It's hard to tell whether this is the case or not. If I like the sound of RDJ screwing around, that's my problem. If lots of us like it, maybe it's not screwing around, or maybe it's the naked emperor thumbing his nose. Either way, I bought a CD I like, and I don't really care if it took RDJ 32 minutes, 32 hours or 32 days to create it. -- Adam J Weitzman --- Individual, Inc. --- weitzman@individual.com -- -- VISIT US AT: http://www.individual.com -- -- Jeff George, Atlanta Falcons QB, on refusing a trade to Seattle: -- -- "Over the past few years I have made some mistakes, and I just -- -- wanted to make sure I made the right one this time." --

quoted 3 lines I personally am concerned with "value" for my money, not "quantity." I

> I personally am concerned with "value" for my money, not "quantity." I'd > rather spend $20 on, say, The Orb's recent _Peel_Sessions_ CD (36:41) > than $7 on many other, much longer releases.

Nevertheless, I have to admit that my money is in with the folks are are disappointed when they get an album home and its running time turns out to be a shade over half an hour. *Especially* when I like the album -- then I just wish there was more of it! In re: the two examples you offered: I can live with the length of the Peel Sessions disc, because I know there were only two sessions available to stick on there anyway -- fair enough. But when you issue a 35-minute album and then start putting out singles with new tracks as B-sides I get a little annoyed. I'm much happier with the 74-minute BloodSugarSexMagik than I would have had it been a shorter album with twice as many B's on the singles.

quoted 3 lines The only time I'm upset about the length of a release is when it is a

> The only time I'm upset about the length of a release is when it is a > greatest hits package. There's no excuse for not filling one of those > up.

Agreed. I felt really dicked over by the Graham Central Station best-of that came out earlier this year -- they acknowledge right in the title that there's more material that could have gone onto the disc (it's "Volume 1") but it runs only 45 minutes... -- ::: Lazlo (lazlo@swcp.com; http://www.swcp.com/lazlo)

You know, this whole argument is about as silly as my roommate getting upset over letter-boxed movies on video/cable because as he says, "they're not using the whole screen." Get over the format and listen to the content. People buy CD singles all the time and those are the same damn discs as a full length. All you have to do is imagine CD's are of limitless length and then you'll listen to the music and not get all hot and bothered about how long it is. I think the Kraftwerk analogy is pretty decent. Those guys spent 2-3 years on a 30-40min release. It's all about quality and not quantity. If you want a bargain for your music then listen to the damn radio. It's free after all. _ -robert | |___ ____ ____ _____ | |_ \ / -__/ / _/ | _ \ __________ |_____/ \___\ |_| | |__/ / -studio- \ _________________________________ |_| http://icse1.ucsd.edu/~rcurlee/ \

On Wed, 23 Oct 1996, Robot wrote:

quoted 4 lines I think the Kraftwerk analogy is pretty decent. Those guys spent 2-3 years

> I think the Kraftwerk analogy is pretty decent. Those guys spent 2-3 years > on a 30-40min release. It's all about quality and not quantity. If you > want a bargain for your music then listen to the damn radio. It's free > after all.

I can see just how shallow some people can be for bitching about the length of CDs. However, having heard the Bochum Welt and Aphex Twin's new "Richard D James" I can easily say that they don't warrant themselves as filling, satisfying albums. Though I can't really comment on the Bochum Welt, (it's great stuff, just want more of it) the new Aphex Twin should have been broken down with the "Boy/Girl" ep into two singles, like the way Warp dealt with the Ventolin and On singles. If you do the math, (I didn't) I suspect it conforms to the British single rules. I recognize that Aphex Twin has tons of material unreleased. I feel that it's entirely up to him what is released and what isn't. Maybe when he croaks, Rykodisc will license all the unreleased material from the estate of Richard James, and release it as a 20 CD box set hailing Aphex Twin as the Frank Zappa of techno. :) Lame Thread Prevention in Effect: Aaron Michelson --------------------------------------------------------------------- aw-teck'r (autechre) "Everything you Know is Wrong." For reviews, interviews, art & trash *UPDATED* http://www.io.org/~amichel/ amichel@io.org

On Wed, 23 Oct 1996 20:16:21 -0400 (EDT), you wrote:

quoted 5 lines on the Bochum Welt, (it's great stuff, just want more of it) the new

>on the Bochum Welt, (it's great stuff, just want more of it) the new >Aphex Twin should have been broken down with the "Boy/Girl" ep into two >singles, like the way Warp dealt with the Ventolin and On singles. If >you do the math, (I didn't) I suspect it conforms to the British single >rules.

They certainly doesn't - too many tracks. In fact, bizarrely, Boy/Girl did get into the National UK (CIN) charts (in at #64), despite the fact it was ineligable for the above reason. g

On Thu, 24 Oct 1996 09:49:25 GMT, you wrote:

quoted 12 lines On Wed, 23 Oct 1996 20:16:21 -0400 (EDT), you wrote:

>On Wed, 23 Oct 1996 20:16:21 -0400 (EDT), you wrote: > > >>on the Bochum Welt, (it's great stuff, just want more of it) the new >>Aphex Twin should have been broken down with the "Boy/Girl" ep into two >>singles, like the way Warp dealt with the Ventolin and On singles. If >>you do the math, (I didn't) I suspect it conforms to the British single >>rules. > >They certainly doesn't - too many tracks. In fact, bizarrely, Boy/Girl >did get into the National UK (CIN) charts (in at #64), despite the >fact it was ineligable for the above reason.

And then it goes in at #5 in the Indie (CIN) *Album* chart. Like say, bizarre. g.

On Wed, 23 Oct 1996, Aaron Michelson wrote:

quoted 3 lines I recognize that Aphex Twin has tons of material unreleased. I feel that

> > I recognize that Aphex Twin has tons of material unreleased. I feel that > it's entirely up to him what is released and what isn't.

Well, as anyone who makes electronic music knows, every time you lash up a few synths and hit 'record' you can call it a track. Mr. James obviously employs some quality control -- many of those billion tracks in the DAT shoebox probably shouldn't see the light of day. You might not like some (or most) of what he puts out, but I've heard nearly everything he's done, and there's always something going on there. Unlike many many MANY records I hear. --------------------------------------------------------------------- "Stop thinking, and end your problems" -- Tao Te Ching Home Page, featuring Reagan on Black Velvet, the EMP Compilation CD, samples of my music, etc http://soli.inav.net/~kent/ Kent Williams kent@inav.net CADSI 2651 Crosspark Road Coralville IA 52241 (319) 338 6053 (home) (319) 626 6700 x 219 (work) (319) 626 3489 (fax)

It seems like these short CDs are being released by artists who have quite a bit of material already realesed, i.e. Aphex Twin, Bochum Welt, and now Seefeel. I wonder if these artists would feel so eager to release 30-32 minute albums to start off their careers? Now that they already have a fan base it seems to make the decision easier, doesn't it? ________________E_r_i_c___F_r_a_n_s________________ [mail]--------------------->franse@engr.arizona.edu [web]->http://www.azstarnet.com/~slyons/exoticblend

On Thu, 24 Oct 1996, Eric Frans wrote:

quoted 3 lines It seems like these short CDs are being released by artists who have

> It seems like these short CDs are being released by artists who have > quite a bit of material already realesed, i.e. Aphex Twin, Bochum Welt, > and now Seefeel. I wonder if these artists would feel so eager to release

uh...i thought the new sefeel was going to be an EP type thing. considering that it was originally going to be an EP (i thought) and it's posthumous (?), i dunno if that's quite fair... [grievous] [who personally would've released "boy/girl" & "richard d. james" as one action-packed CD. but that's just me.]

On Fri, 25 Oct 1996, grievous iv - gymkata! wrote: } On Thu, 24 Oct 1996, Eric Frans wrote: } > It seems like these short CDs are being released by artists who have } > quite a bit of material already realesed, i.e. Aphex Twin, Bochum Welt, } > and now Seefeel. I wonder if these artists would feel so eager to release } } uh...i thought the new sefeel was going to be an EP type thing. } considering that it was originally going to be an EP (i thought) and it's } posthumous (?), i dunno if that's quite fair... Well, maybe it is listed as an EP, but I'm just going by this review that was posted earlier today, which called _CH-Vox_ an "album": ---- Date: Thu, 24 Oct 1996 06:55:54 -0400 From: "sm@4th World" <106056.2751@compuserve.com> To: I Dance Madly <idm@hyperreal.com> Subject: (idm) See-Feel - CH-Vox review See - Feel - CH-Vox (Rephlex Cat036) 33 mins 'Utreat (Compute)' opens the album 2 reverberating icy notes stuck like a hammer to the anvil , underpinned by distant fleeting washes of texture. 'E-Hix' fades in with cut up collages of sound rising and falling in amongst themselves , whilst what sounds like atonal trumpets chime out an ominious fanfare , the sound of industry grinding to a halt 'Ch-Vox' is a tonal composistion which conjours up images of barren desolete wastelands and decaying ruins , the sound builds up and then fades away to silence before creeping out of hiding again..scary 'Hive' introduces a creaking metallic loop with a whiplash beat and thudding bass , disembodied vocals sounding like shamanic chants whirl about giving the track a dark intensity. 'Ashdeacon' - tinkling water chimes and a bell being struck deep from the bowels of the earth combine with flashes of melody , mourful but yet serene and never loses that threatening edge. 'Net' closes the album , cracked signals , drifting shifting tonal shapes and one of the first interjections of rhythm on the whole album - what sounds like pitched down franticly tapped morse code, then dying off into the void. very mood orientated with the emphasic more on classical style composition this reminds me of the work of Paul Shutze, and that is a compliment in itself , an album to let your imagination lose in..... verdict - very challenging , but worth the perseverance.. sm @ 4th world uk *cutting edge mail order* http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/4thworld/ ---- I guess I was wrong to lump it in the "30-32" minute category since apparently it's 33 minutes. Regardless, if it is an album it can safely be called "short". Hopefully, the quality will make up for the brevity. I'm interested to see what the CD will cost, however. ________________E_r_i_c___F_r_a_n_s________________ [mail]--------------------->franse@engr.arizona.edu [web]->http://www.azstarnet.com/~slyons/exoticblend

Robot wrote:

quoted 3 lines You know, this whole argument is about as silly as my roommate getting upset

> You know, this whole argument is about as silly as my roommate getting upset > over letter-boxed movies on video/cable because as he says, "they're not > using the whole screen."

How is that a silly argument? Us old folks with poor vision would like to be able to see the whole thing, not squished down into some tiny quadrant that's hard to see. Aspect ratio be damned.

quoted 2 lines Get over the format and listen to the content. People buy CD singles all

> Get over the format and listen to the content. People buy CD singles all > the time and those are the same damn discs as a full length.

And - guess what - THEY COST LESS! Imagine that ...

quoted 2 lines All you have to do is imagine CD's are of limitless length and then you'll

> All you have to do is imagine CD's are of limitless length and then you'll > listen to the music and not get all hot and bothered about how long it is.

Unfortunately, they aren't. Deal with reality (and your wallet) please.

quoted 2 lines I think the Kraftwerk analogy is pretty decent. Those guys spent 2-3 years

> I think the Kraftwerk analogy is pretty decent. Those guys spent 2-3 years > on a 30-40min release. It's all about quality and not quantity.

And gee, 30-40 minute releases were pretty optimal for single-vinyl LPs then. I recently threw back the 12" of Carl Craig's "Bug In The Bassbin" because, even though it was a killer track, it was a one-sided 12" (gee, half the medium's capacity, sounds familiar) and yet it was still full price. I do not feel like paying US $10 for one track, no matter what the "quality". Let's make this a reductio ad absurdum: If anyone came out with a CD that was 15 minutes long and contained 10 tracks, all averaging 1:30 or so in length, and the shops charged full price, would you still say the same thing? The issue is not, for me, the length. (Goes into closet, blows off 10 layers of dust from his Ramones "Leave Home" and Wire's "Pink Flag" ... ) It's the fact that full price is being asked for a recording which is merely half the medium's standard length. - Greg

Greg Earle wrote:

quoted 6 lines Let's make this a reductio ad absurdum:

> > Let's make this a reductio ad absurdum: > > If anyone came out with a CD that was 15 minutes long and contained 10 tracks, > all averaging 1:30 or so in length, and the shops charged full price, would > you still say the same thing?

Yes, I would. It's still a tradeoff. Of course, at 15 minutes, I'd be much less likely to buy it because the (quality*quantity)/money factor is considerably lower. It's not that you shouldn't take length into account, it's that there are other factors involved.

quoted 4 lines I recently threw back the 12" of Carl Craig's "Bug In The Bassbin" bec

> I recently threw back the 12" of Carl Craig's "Bug In The Bassbin" because, > even though it was a killer track, it was a one-sided 12" (gee, half the > medium's capacity, sounds familiar) and yet it was still full price. I do > not feel like paying US $10 for one track, no matter what the "quality".

That's your prerogative. I'm still wishing I had the money at the time to buy Jack Dangers' unbeliveable "Space Children" 1-sided 12" when I saw it years ago. My theory is, let artists be artists, and let consumers be consumers. No one is forcing any consumer to purchase the new RDJ or Bochum Welt CD. If the artists are jerks, don't support them. I stated earlier this year that I don't buy Muslimgauze releases because of his radical politics. You can just as easily not support RDJ because he released a 32-minute full-length CD. I'm missing out on some great music, and you might be too. I don't see any conflict in that.

quoted 4 lines The issue is not, for me, the length. (Goes into closet, blows off 10 layers

> The issue is not, for me, the length. (Goes into closet, blows off 10 layers > of dust from his Ramones "Leave Home" and Wire's "Pink Flag" ... ) It's the > fact that full price is being asked for a recording which is merely half the > medium's standard length.

Were these short albums released at a discount price? I'm too young to remember... -- Adam J Weitzman --- Individual, Inc. --- weitzman@individual.com -- -- VISIT US AT: http://www.individual.com -- -- Jeff George, Atlanta Falcons QB, on refusing a trade to Seattle: -- -- "Over the past few years I have made some mistakes, and I just -- -- wanted to make sure I made the right one this time." --