IDM Mailing Archive

1994-02-03 22:47Mike J. Brown> > > ambient and dance in the same song.. example: song starts very ambient, > > > builds

From:: Mike J. Brown <mjbrown@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu>
Date:: Thu, 3 Feb 94 17:47:08 EST
Subject:: Long trance compositions (was Re: Underworld)

quoted 8 lines ambient and dance in the same song.. example: song starts very ambient,

> > > ambient and dance in the same song.. example: song starts very ambient, > > > builds slowly, slowly, slowly, until it's built up into a driving very > > > danceable song - over the time of about 20 minutes.. > > You just described "Gravitational Arch of 10" :) . > well, in a sense it is similar to what i think might evolve, but i > envision the possibility of something started much more slowly, building > more slowly, but to an even higher peak, a process drawn out over 20 > minutes or so..

but not very creative. most musicians wouldn't be satisfied with something that easy, unless you are talking about something more than just layering multiple tracks. when you're composing something, you don't want people to listen to it and say "anyone can do that." so doing what are suggesting and maintaining originality and diversity withing the song at the same time is no small task. also consider that a song's danceability and "driving"ness are not entirely dependent on the instrinsic qualities of the measure that is playing at the moment, but are equally if not moreso dependent upon the arrangement of the different types & sonic thickness of measures in relation to each other. if you drag out a crescendo of layers building upon layers over a 20 minute song, it's not going to have the same effect as dropping out some of the sounds out at the last of a group of 8 or 16 measures (4/4 time) and then bringing them back in on the first beat of the next measure, maybe with some more stuff on top. that is to say, a song's energy can build through the addition of layers, but it can build much faster through the careful addition and subtraction of layers at the right moments. but then you would just have a really long song... it wouldn't be the simple idea you were proposing. i guess you should ask whether it is the arrangement of the song you want to deal with, or the flow of the energy between the song and the listener/dancer. mike Mike J. Brown _ ___ ______________Approach and Identify ............................................................................... Ambient Music Survey: FTP or Gopher techno.stanford.edu. Contributions needed!

1994-02-03 23:17David Kelly"Mike J. Brown" <mjbrown@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu> writes: > > well, in a sense it is sim

From:: David Kelly <kellyd@cybernet.cse.fau.edu>
Date:: Thu, 03 Feb 94 18:17:19 EST
Subject:: Re: Long trance compositions (was Re: Underworld)

"Mike J. Brown" <mjbrown@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu> writes:

quoted 11 lines well, in a sense it is similar to what i think might evolve, but i

> > well, in a sense it is similar to what i think might evolve, but i > > envision the possibility of something started much more slowly, building > > more slowly, but to an even higher peak, a process drawn out over 20 > > minutes or so.. > > but not very creative. most musicians wouldn't be satisfied with something > that easy, unless you are talking about something more than just layering > multiple tracks. when you're composing something, you don't want people to > listen to it and say "anyone can do that." so doing what are suggesting > and maintaining originality and diversity withing the song at the same time > is no small task.

i'm not sure if i'm being misunderstood or what.. i can't see where creativity is compromised by the song style that i speak of.. i'm not talking about building a song piece by piece by adding parts, and adding more parts and adding more parts.. i'm not sure what i said to imply that.. i'm simply saying that i think we will see a greater number of songs incorporating ambient sections that are longer and more ambient than we see now.. this in effect will enable the artist to start at a very low degree of intensity and have a greater effect of building intensity to a peak.. the gravitational arch of 10 example was already brought up.. just imagine if it had a longer ambient introduction and the beat didn't come in quite as suddenly - the song would more gradually introduce the synths and bassline and would later add a dance-type beat.. i can't see where that compromises creativity..

quoted 4 lines but then you would just have a really long song... it wouldn't be the

> but then you would just have a really long song... it wouldn't be the > simple idea you were proposing. i guess you should ask whether it is the > arrangement of the song you want to deal with, or the flow of the energy > between the song and the listener/dancer.

i think when you talk about a song you have no choice but to "deal with" both as the arrangement has a lot to do with the flow of energy as you pointed out.. i must also add i don't think every song of the future is going to follow this pattern of course! i simply used that pattern as an example.. i just think that we will begin to see a greater fusion of ambience and "beat" oriented music in the same song.. i can't think of many "perfect" examples but there are two that come to mind.. on the into the great white light cd on mfs, the song "a night on E" (which was previously mentioned on idm) begins rather ambient, builds fairly slowly, but eventually goes through the roof.. this is an okay example but it is a rather simplistic song.. another example is in a completely different ballpark.. lost tribe's new 12" on stress called "gimme a smile" is a rather housy type trance track with 2 mixes fused together on the record meant to be played as one track.. smack dab in the middle of the song (about 7 minutes in) the song drops off to almost nothing for a minute or two, no beat, and a bpm approaching 50 or so.. it kicks back in, goes for a while and ends by slowing down the bpms once again to almost nothing.. all i'm really saying is i think we're slowly seeing greater use of ambient sections in "danceable" songs and we will probably see even more use in the future.. and furthermore i think many djs will use more ambience in their sets.. right now, here in florida, some of the biggest cheers are reserved for long ambient sections of music.. when sasha spun here one of his biggest cheers in the whole night was during the ambient break in the lost tribe track i mentioned.. (the ambient section was even accented by the club shooting off a pyrotechnics display during it..)

1994-02-03 23:18Bryce RyanMy mailer says that Mike J. Brown said: > > but not very creative. most musicians wouldn't

From:: Bryce Ryan <brycer@netcom.com>
Date:: Thu, 3 Feb 1994 15:18:29 -0800 (PST)
Subject:: Re: Long trance compositions (was Re: Underworld)

My mailer says that Mike J. Brown said:

quoted 6 lines but not very creative. most musicians wouldn't be satisfied with something

umm... einstein said something like "if you can't explain it in a few simple sentences, it's probably not right". some of the most extraordinarily difficult things appear simple on first perception. it is only after actually creating something new that has the same depth that i've come to appreciate the craft and genius that went into the thing that inspired me. i'm perfectly comfortable with the idea of compositions that build over long periods of time. many rituals take hours, even days to reach some kind of conclusion. certainly a quick orgasm may be utilitarian and satisfying in some ways; an orgasm (musical or otherwise) that builds over a lengthy period of time is satisfying in entirely different ways. while the instantaneous measure of "difficulty" may be low, the measure of "difficulty" taken over the entire length of the composition may be extremely high. hence, that "washed out" feeling after a four hour set. any single mix may be easy, even downright trivial, but taken over four hours, the overall mix may be quite difficult. -- Bryce Ryan ------- AMBIANCE ----------- brycer@netcom.com----- PC Bulletin: Henceforth, sentient computers would like to be known as "Silicon Intelligences." "Artificial Intelligence" is a pejorative term invented by humans based on the mistaken belief that computers are some- how not "natural." - elf@halcyon.com

1994-02-04 03:58djkcMJB: > > but not very creative. most musicians wouldn't be satisfied with something > that

From:: djkc <jhender@nyx.cs.du.edu>
Date:: Thu, 3 Feb 1994 20:58:32 -0700 (MST)
Subject:: Re: Long trance compositions (was Re: Underworld)

MJB:

quoted 7 lines but not very creative. most musicians wouldn't be satisfied with something

> > but not very creative. most musicians wouldn't be satisfied with something > that easy, unless you are talking about something more than just layering > multiple tracks. when you're composing something, you don't want people to > listen to it and say "anyone can do that." so doing what are suggesting > and maintaining originality and diversity withing the song at the same time > is no small task.

Yes. Wonderful minimalism is no minimal task.

quoted 6 lines also consider that a song's danceability and "driving"ness are not entirely

> > also consider that a song's danceability and "driving"ness are not entirely > dependent on the instrinsic qualities of the measure that is playing at the > moment, but are equally if not moreso dependent upon the arrangement of the > different types & sonic thickness of measures in relation to each other. >

If sound were a piece of thread, musicians would be called seamstresses and tailors.

quoted 8 lines if you drag out a crescendo of layers building upon layers over a 20 minute

> if you drag out a crescendo of layers building upon layers over a 20 minute > song, it's not going to have the same effect as dropping out some of the > sounds out at the last of a group of 8 or 16 measures (4/4 time) and then > bringing them back in on the first beat of the next measure, maybe with some > more stuff on top. that is to say, a song's energy can build through the > addition of layers, but it can build much faster through the careful > addition and subtraction of layers at the right moments. >

I love it when music reminds me of a big, thick pan of lasagna! Cottage, mozzarella, and riccota cheeses; tomato sauce, ground beef, and pasta all LAYERED together! :)

quoted 4 lines but then you would just have a really long song... it wouldn't be the

And you could ask whether it's the expertise of the chef, or the appetite of the eater! Sorry, Mike...your post just brought many images to mind, that's all... :) -djkc

Re: Long trance compositions (was Re: Underworld)