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Re: [idm] apples and oranges

3 messages · 2 participants · spans 1 day · search this subject
2003-11-07 01:01chthonic Re: [idm] apples and oranges
2003-11-07 12:30Chris Henry Re: [idm] apples and oranges
└─ 2003-11-07 13:48chthonic streams Re: [idm] apples and oranges
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2003-11-07 01:01chthonic---------- Original Message ---------------------------------- From: "Chris Henry" <hendaw
From:
chthonic
To:
Date:
Thu, 6 Nov 2003 17:01:52 -0800
Subject:
Re: [idm] apples and oranges
permalink · <200311061701.AA56952464@chthonicstreams.com>
---------- Original Message ---------------------------------- From: "Chris Henry" <hendawg@earcandymusic.nu>
quoted 2 lines I've always looked at performances as more of a collective> I've always looked at performances as more of a collective >experience - a more socially-oriented continuum involving
physical space, artist, performance, spectating, sound, community, etc, as opposed to the
quoted 1 line individual, more introverted, and obviously seperate experience of>individual, more introverted, and obviously seperate experience of
listening
quoted 2 lines to a cd at home. Looked at in this light, the actual performance>to a cd at home. Looked at in this light, the actual performance >methodology becomes somewhat secondary. If it's a rad time,
hanging out
quoted 1 line with nice, enthusiastic people, listening to cool, engaging music>with nice, enthusiastic people, listening to cool, engaging music
in a
quoted 1 line unique space, how can you even begin to compare it to listening>unique space, how can you even begin to compare it to listening
to the cd at
quoted 1 line home? Apples and oranges, folks...>home? Apples and oranges, folks...
i see what you're getting at, but i can't help but think i'd rather be elsewhere if a performance is too canned or boring, even if the music is pretty good. i also think you're making assumptions that a CD listening experience is going to be a) at home and b) individual/introverted. first, because of busy lives, a lot of people listen at work and/or on portable systems a lot more than at home (myself included). second, a home listening experience could just as easily include a bunch of friends and neighbors, thus bringing in some of the "community" aspect. not all live shows are as interactive as you mention, either between the artist and audience or between audience members. in fact, it's the lack of interaction between the artist and anything but a glowing screen that i'm talking about. personally, i find it hard to get my friends to come to shows like this, and i consider it rude to talk too much during a performance. not to mention i did pay to see a show, not hang out with my friends and drink, which i could go to a bar and do. come to think of it, if i want to hear electronic music while doing that, i'll go to open air bar on sundays, where people do their laptop thing but they're not up on a stage as thought there's something to see. they're just doing their thing at their ports, and it's a much more relaxed atmosphere. i can totally get behind that. d. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org
2003-11-07 12:30Chris Henry> i also think you're making assumptions that a CD listening > experience is going to be a
From:
Chris Henry
To:
Date:
Fri, 7 Nov 2003 05:30:52 -0700
Subject:
Re: [idm] apples and oranges
permalink · <00ad01c3a52b$21f83fc0$1e7736ce@computer>
quoted 7 lines i also think you're making assumptions that a CD listening> i also think you're making assumptions that a CD listening > experience is going to be a) at home and b) individual/introverted. > first, because of busy lives, a lot of people listen at work and/or on > portable systems a lot more than at home (myself included). > second, a home listening experience could just as easily include a > bunch of friends and neighbors, thus bringing in some of the > "community" aspect.
Oh, totally - I'm lucky enough I get to sit around with friends listening to sick new stuff in our living room almost everyday, a total communal experience. I was invoking the home/show contrast in reponse to the whole "why don't I just go home and listen to the cd" argument. Also keep in mind the event nature of a live performance is a great excuse to get a bunch of people together that might not dig on your living room as much as you do. Oh yeah, and my neighbors hate it when we crank up the double 18"s - being a bass junkie I definitely appreciate the concept of an area without noise constraints, and hate the fact there aren't more of them.
quoted 8 lines not all live shows are as interactive as you mention, either> not all live shows are as interactive as you mention, either > between the artist and audience or between audience members. > in fact, it's the lack of interaction between the artist and anything > but a glowing screen that i'm talking about. personally, i find it > hard to get my friends to come to shows like this, and i consider it > rude to talk too much during a performance. not to mention i did > pay to see a show, not hang out with my friends and drink, which i > could go to a bar and do.
I guess I just consider the artist/audience interaction to be potentially a more subtle thing than the standard dudes rocking out model we're all so used to. It all comes down to the vibe, I suppose - if the artist or crowd is noticably bored/inattentive/low energy/etc. then no amount of sound, atmosphere, or visually stimulating performance is gonna pull it out. On a side note, why limit yourself? See a show, drink/smoke, and hang out with your friends at the same time! That's my objective, usually. I think attempting to separate the artistic and social aspects of cultural events is artificial, and counterproductive, to boot. Then again, that might just be burning man talking (insert peace sign here)... The whole laptop performance issue is a tricky one, don't get me wrong. I can totally sympathise with your friends and their reluctance to go to laptop shows. IMHO the only things that allow it to work at the moment are: a) people into electronic music have gotten sort of used to watching djs (more commentary on the event nature and it's focusing aspect I mentioned above, people obviously need to focus on something shared), and b) the technological nature of the music and production (i.e. that's actually how it's done, and you probably wouldn't want to be the dude in the Snap video holding the guitar). Just imagine how much worse (or better?) it would be if you went to see Michael Jackson and he was rocking Traktor. Totally different worlds, production-wise. I guess I'm lucky to be enough of a geek I can fully appreciate what's going on, sans theatrics or frenetic movement, and love it as much as seeing some kick-ass band like Lightning Bolt or Nashville Pussy or No Means No or whatever. The whole laptop/idm/electronic thing is just the shit, and we are all sitting in on the beginning of one of the most important things to happen to music in western culture since electricity. It's gonna evolve, obviously, so for now my advice to the malcontents is just hold on a minute, support the scene, see what happens, try to meet some people, and do your best to enjoy yourself in the meanwhile. If that doesn't work, start working on some sort of physically interactive hardware for Abelton Live or something and show us how it should be done - technology has gotten us into this condumdrum and I'm willing to bet technology is going to get us out. Some guys turn out the lights, some guys rap, some guys dance around like loons, surely these aren't the limits of computer-based performance innovation... a'ight, rant over. I'm sure I just said a bunch of shit that's been repeated on this list for ages, sorry if you've heard it before. I just hang out with a lot of people that enjoy the shows and it seems the laptop lovers are a little underrepresented in these parts at times. Big ups to the laptop jockeys! esp.the ones that like to travel, you know we love you.. chris --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org
2003-11-07 13:48chthonic streams"Chris Henry" <hendawg@earcandymusic.nu> wrote: >Also keep >in mind the event nature of a
From:
chthonic streams
To:
Date:
Fri, 7 Nov 2003 08:48:15 -0500
Subject:
Re: [idm] apples and oranges
Reply to:
Re: [idm] apples and oranges
permalink · <p05210600bbd14c084775@[64.63.223.61]>
"Chris Henry" <hendawg@earcandymusic.nu> wrote:
quoted 6 lines Also keep>Also keep >in mind the event nature of a live performance is a great excuse to get a >bunch of people together that might not dig on your living room as much as >you do. Oh yeah, and my neighbors hate it when we crank up the double >18"s - being a bass junkie I definitely appreciate the concept of an area >without noise constraints, and hate the fact there aren't more of them.
yes, the volume thing is an issue. it's nice to really feel that bass. but here again, i think volume is relied on too much - in fact, i find that often shows are too loud and too trebly.
quoted 3 lines I guess I just consider the artist/audience interaction to be potentially a>I guess I just consider the artist/audience interaction to be potentially a >more subtle thing than the standard dudes rocking out model we're all so >used to.
sure, i totally agree. as i think i said in some other way elsewhere on this list, "dudes rocking out" can be totally boring, both musically and visually. but getting up on the same stage as the rockers do and doing perceptibly little is what gets tiresome.
quoted 7 lines It all comes down to the vibe, I suppose - if the artist or crowd>It all comes down to the vibe, I suppose - if the artist or crowd >is noticably bored/inattentive/low energy/etc. then no amount of sound, >atmosphere, or visually stimulating performance is gonna pull it out. On a >side note, why limit yourself? See a show, drink/smoke, and hang out with >your friends at the same time! That's my objective, usually. I think >attempting to separate the artistic and social aspects of cultural events is >artificial, and counterproductive, to boot.
hey, people are going to do what they're going to do at a show, whether it's neck with their lovers, sneak some weed, make comments to each other, or whatever. but it's up to the artist to draw their attention so that those aspects are only adding to the atmosphere rather than something people do because there's nothing happening onstage.
quoted 2 lines Then again, that might just be>Then again, that might just be >burning man talking (insert peace sign here)...
i'm thinking of going to that. now THAT qualifies as a completely other type of interactive live experience.
quoted 3 lines The whole laptop performance issue is a tricky one, don't get me wrong. I>The whole laptop performance issue is a tricky one, don't get me wrong. I >can totally sympathise with your friends and their reluctance to go to >laptop shows.
actually it's not specifically laptop shows, but if they knew that was what it was going to be i'm not sure if they'd be up for it at all.
quoted 4 lines IMHO the only things that allow it to work at the moment are:>IMHO the only things that allow it to work at the moment are: >a) people into electronic music have gotten sort of used to watching djs >(more commentary on the event nature and it's focusing aspect I mentioned >above, people obviously need to focus on something shared),
i guess it might feel like more of an "event" if there were more other things going on. more merch tables, maybe a panel discussion in another room, kazoos handed out to all audience members who are then encouraged to participate...something! or maybe i'm being to strict or grand in my definition / expectation of the word "event".
quoted 4 lines and b) the>and b) the >technological nature of the music and production (i.e. that's actually how >it's done, and you probably wouldn't want to be the dude in the Snap video >holding the guitar).
hey, if the guitar had a midi controller on it and was actually adding to the music i might not mind it.
quoted 3 lines Just imagine how much worse (or better?) it would be>Just imagine how much worse (or better?) it would be >if you went to see Michael Jackson and he was rocking Traktor. Totally >different worlds, production-wise.
see, now that would be such a culture clash i might be interested in that! LOL
quoted 7 lines I guess I'm lucky to be enough of a geek I can fully appreciate what's going>I guess I'm lucky to be enough of a geek I can fully appreciate what's going >on, sans theatrics or frenetic movement, and love it as much as seeing some >kick-ass band like >Lightning Bolt or Nashville Pussy or No Means No or whatever. The whole >laptop/idm/electronic thing is just the shit, and we are all sitting in on >the beginning of one of the most important things to happen to music in >western culture since electricity.
it's definitely changing things, i agree. of course, if laptop is the new punk, and anyone can do it, the problem (as i'm sure all here have heard before) is that anyone does do it. a lt of people don't have ideas beyond loading up the hot software and plugins and doing the digital version of "rocking out" in a pretty standard way...and that lack of ingenuity translates to live performance. i get the feeling some artists would rather be in their bedroom. which is fine. why force it to happen?
quoted 4 lines It's gonna evolve, obviously, so for now>It's gonna evolve, obviously, so for now >my advice to the malcontents is just hold on a minute, support the scene, >see what happens, try to meet some people, and do your best to enjoy >yourself in the meanwhile.
heh heh, so i'm a malcontent now? i guess so. to be content is to be passive, and live shows should be active, for all concerned. but i understand about the evolution taking time. however, i would much rather support the scene by voting with my dollar which shows not to go to, so maybe artists will think, "hmm, the place was only half full and as soon as people realized i wasn't interesting they drifted away from the stage...maybe i should make this better somehow".
quoted 6 lines If that doesn't work, start working on some sort>If that doesn't work, start working on some sort >of physically interactive hardware for Abelton Live or something and show us >how it should be done - technology has gotten us into this condumdrum and >I'm willing to bet technology is going to get us out. Some guys turn out >the lights, some guys rap, some guys dance around like loons, surely these >aren't the limits of computer-based performance innovation...
i'm hoping not!
quoted 6 lines a'ight, rant over. I'm sure I just said a bunch of shit that's been>a'ight, rant over. I'm sure I just said a bunch of shit that's been >repeated on this list for ages, sorry if you've heard it before. I just >hang out with a lot of people that enjoy the shows and it seems the laptop >lovers are a little underrepresented in these parts at times. Big ups to >the laptop jockeys! esp.the ones that like to travel, you know we love >you..
and i salute them for trying to get out there and do something, and meet the fans. but it doesn't mean they should be complacent in whatever level of success they've achieved and ignore the performance innovation that clearly needs to happen. i do apologize for the pun and tired phraseology, but it's time to literally start thinking out of the box - the live experience that extends beyond the laptop in front of them. d. -- http://www.chthonicstreams.com http://www.dreamintodust.com --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org