IDM Mailing Archive

Sometimes I think I should glue my squarepusher Cd's into my player. It wouldn't change anything they never leave the player anyway.... Oh and how does that stop copyright infringement, with 30 minutes, a screwdriver, and some aligator clips it wouldn't be hard to get a copy...I'm just sayin'...... P _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8 is here: Try it free* for 2 months http://join.msn.com/?page=dept/dialup --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

On Fri, 17 Jan 2003 10:58:14 -0500 "Patrick Norris" <untitledartist@hotmail.com> wrote:

quoted 3 lines Oh and how does that stop copyright infringement, with 30 minutes, a

> Oh and how does that stop copyright infringement, with 30 minutes, a > screwdriver, and some aligator clips it wouldn't be hard to get a > copy...I'm just sayin'......

Alternatively just rip out the cd in the worst way you could and grab a copy. If they want the damn player back, claim it got broken in some strange freak accident involving the dog, duct tape and rubbe.. actually, never mind. If they want the player back, well, hell, send it back, perhaps with a few more inflicted "injuries" ;-) R

quoted 1 line P

> P

- -- Ryan Verner <xfesty@computeraddictions.com.au> PGP: 5819 DE5D B5AE 9381 7E60 5B4C 45CC 64DF D3CC EB07 MSN: dev.festy@start.com.au IRC: xf/irc.oublinet.net EQ: [46 Bard] Mummer Hummer (Human) PH: +61 418 186 604 (*) cynical: a word used by the frightened to describe the realistic. [PGP signature removed] --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

A

quoted 2 lines Oh and how does that stop copyright infringement, with 30 minutes, a

> > Oh and how does that stop copyright infringement, with 30 minutes, a > > screwdriver..,

------

quoted 2 lines Alternatively just rip out the cd in the worst way you could and grab a

>Alternatively just rip out the cd in the worst way you could and grab a >copy.

Well, it seems to me that a 'reviewer' needs stuff to review and one might prize being on a promo list of a label which carries the ilk of Ae. It would not seem like too much of a logical leap to assume that any such option would probably delete your address from the promo list F-A-S-T. It's a matter of counting the cost. Merely having a copy or uploading such to a filesharing network hardly seems like sufficient reward for losing a valuable promo connection if you are in the biz of reviewing. And record companies DO watch ebay for advance copies which are posted before release. I bought something from a store in a used bin and put it up a few weeks back which turned out to be 3 weeks ahead of the release date. Instinct saw it, complained to ebay and the auction was shut down and I was warned that relisting would result in suspension. My guess is that this promo on ebay is only up there (still, I mean - if it is as of yet) because it is a cassette. Assuming it's a Warp release, they have not been historically amenable to incidents of this nature. As I wrote to someone else offlist, it's like ice on a lake in Winter after a long warm spell...just because you see other people on it is no certainty that it will hold you up. I would extend that simile to the aforementioned instance of returning a tampered player to the company, except that I think I would change the season to Summer and suggest that the observer may be experimenting with psychotropic substances :-) jeff --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

http://news.mysanantonio.com/story.cfm?xla=saen&xlb=110&xlc=922185 Music industry woes America's music industry - especially its record producers - is under attack from all sides, says Wired (February), the high-tech magazine. Blaming music piracy, the magazine says performers, equipment manufacturers and "good old-fashioned customers ... are killing the record labels." CD sales fell 11 percent in the first half of 2002, after a 3 percent decline in 2001. "At least a hundred copies of every song on the Billboard Hot 100 were available for download (on the Internet)," Wired says. The article, in Wired's Feb.2003 issue, on newsstands now, opens with a prediction by the late Timothy White, editor of Billboard, that the Music Industry will die in 2003. Aw, gee: wouldn't that be too bad?! ;) .o0O}seeklektek{O0o. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

On Friday, January 17, 2003, at 12:24 PM, seeklektek wrote:

quoted 6 lines The article, in Wired's Feb.2003 issue, on newsstands now, opens with a

> > The article, in Wired's Feb.2003 issue, on newsstands now, opens with a > prediction by the late Timothy White, > editor of Billboard, that the Music Industry will die in 2003. Aw, > gee: > wouldn't that be too bad?! ;)

probably, yeah it would be. dont get me wrong, im not a big fan of labels and everything, but they are a semi-necessary evil. if noone buys the cd's and everyone pirates them, the companies no longer have any reason to put out cd's, which in turn means noone has cd's to pirate, which reinstates the need for cd distribution, which.... well.. go back to the beginning. hell yes, i pirate music. i also buy what i like and trash what i dont. most people just pirate music. im not pulling a moral high ground pose here, but seriously.. if the industry goes away, any hope at decent distribution will also go away. i _LIKE_ having access to artists all over the world, being able to find almost any genre of music, and lots that i've never heard of. no industry, no distribution, less choices. now, if only the industry would play nice.. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

Didn't I read somewhere that the Industries loss in sales was actually due to a drop in production, which they tried to cover up in order to have some ammunition for the war against p2p? But in the end I can't see the Industry disappearing anytime soon... Their revenues are still huge so the worst I can see happening is a little belt tightening or maybe the odd merger and acquisition here and there. What's great about capitalism is that it gives an opportunity for small more efficient companies to adapt to new circumstances where the larger companies are too bloated and inefficient to change in time to deal with them. But I guess the music industry is a little different due to the fact that it's dealing with peoples taste (or lack of), so who knows.. But even if they did all go bust it wouldn't be much of a problem for most of the people on this list, who i'm sure buy much of their music in specialist stores stocked full of independant music? ...skism

quoted 42 lines -----Original Message-----

> -----Original Message----- > From: Brett Dietsch [mailto:elph@lawngnome.org] > Sent: 17 January 2003 17:40 > To: seeklektek > Cc: idm@hyperreal.org > Subject: Re: [idm] 2003: The Year the Music Industry Dies - Wired > Magazine, 2/2003 > > > > On Friday, January 17, 2003, at 12:24 PM, seeklektek wrote: > > > > The article, in Wired's Feb.2003 issue, on newsstands now, opens with a > > prediction by the late Timothy White, > > editor of Billboard, that the Music Industry will die in 2003. Aw, > > gee: > > wouldn't that be too bad?! ;) > > probably, yeah it would be. > dont get me wrong, im not a big fan of labels and everything, but they > are a semi-necessary evil. > if noone buys the cd's and everyone pirates them, the companies no > longer have any reason to put out cd's, which in turn means noone has > cd's to pirate, which reinstates the need for cd distribution, > which.... well.. go back to the beginning. > > hell yes, i pirate music. i also buy what i like and trash what i > dont. most people just pirate music. im not pulling a moral high > ground pose here, but seriously.. if the industry goes away, any hope > at decent distribution will also go away. > > i _LIKE_ having access to artists all over the world, being able to > find almost any genre of music, and lots that i've never heard of. no > industry, no distribution, less choices. > > now, if only the industry would play nice.. > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org > For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org >

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Skism wrote:

quoted 1 line Didn't I read somewhere that the Industries loss in sales was actually

>Didn't I read somewhere that the Industries loss in sales was actually

due to a drop in production, which they tried to cover up in order to have some ammunition for the war against p2p?> I don't know about that but here's an analysis that's sort of pertinent - this is Douglas Wolk, writing in the Village Voice in March 2002 about the year 2001. <Overall record sales declined last year for the first time in two decades. (Of course, everyone had a bad year in 2001, and a close look at the figures reveals something curious: 2001's sales dropped by 22.3 million discs, or about 3 percent, but 2001's top 10 albums sold, in aggregate, 20.3 million fewer copies than 2000's top 10. Hybrid Theory was no No Strings Attached, Shaggy was no Eminem, and there's your difference right there.) > http://www.villagevoice.com/issues/0212/wolk.php Bob --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

i copy my music, except some albums that i tend to buy directly from producer/label, which is pirating and i will be doing so untill the pricing will become realistic -about $1 for an album directly to the producer if the time you spent on copying is a value to you- you'll be buying, so figures __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

wow $1...that's generous. What do you suppose the mark up on your shoes is? Jeff

quoted 8 lines From: svin <svinrave@yahoo.com>

> From: svin <svinrave@yahoo.com> > Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 10:59:37 -0800 (PST) > To: idm@hyperreal.org > Subject: [idm] music industry must die- and music art should remain > > and i will be doing so untill the pricing will > become realistic -about $1 for an album directly > to the producer

quoted 29 lines From: svin <svinrave@yahoo.com>

> From: svin <svinrave@yahoo.com> > Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 10:59:37 -0800 (PST) > To: idm@hyperreal.org > Subject: [idm] music industry must die- and music art should remain > > i copy my music, except some albums that i tend > to buy directly from producer/label, which is > pirating > > and i will be doing so untill the pricing will > become realistic -about $1 for an album directly > to the producer > > if the time you spent on copying is a value to > you- > you'll be buying, > > so figures > > > __________________________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. > http://mailplus.yahoo.com > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org > For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org >

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On Friday, January 17, 2003, at 02:18 PM, svin wrote:

quoted 5 lines i dont really know why i need labels if all you

> i dont really know why i need labels if all you > need to produce and sell - > is > a)computer > b)web

and all you need to fix a car is a screwdriver and a hammer. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

On Fri, 17 Jan 2003 14:24:33 -0500 Brett Dietsch <elph@lawngnome.org> wrote:

quoted 1 line and all you need to fix a car is a screwdriver and a hammer.

> and all you need to fix a car is a screwdriver and a hammer.

And sticky tape. R - -- Ryan Verner <xfesty@computeraddictions.com.au> PGP: 5819 DE5D B5AE 9381 7E60 5B4C 45CC 64DF D3CC EB07 MSN: dev.festy@start.com.au IRC: xf/irc.oublinet.net EQ: [46 Bard] Mummer Hummer (Human) PH: +61 418 186 604 (*) cynical: a word used by the frightened to describe the realistic. [PGP signature removed] --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

On Friday, January 17, 2003, at 02:32 PM, Ryan Verner wrote:

quoted 8 lines Hash: SHA1

> > Hash: SHA1 > > On Fri, 17 Jan 2003 14:24:33 -0500 Brett Dietsch <elph@lawngnome.org> > wrote: > >> and all you need to fix a car is a screwdriver and a hammer. > > And sticky tape.

NO. screwdriver and hammer. anything above and beyond leads to corporate pollution and selfish dystopian capitalism. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

you are right, actually, do you know that equipment used by Robert Hood the guy from Underground Resistance was- simple synthesizer,placed on ironing board, roland909 and one (mono!) speaker, because his mixer was mono __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

I don't know if it's even wise to start in replying to this, but I have been around the block a few times on this ... A record label is an entity that represents specialization of function. The label finds artists, arranges production and distribution, and handles promotion. It's easy to recognize that someone who makes music doesn't necessarily know anything about how to mass produce their CDs or records. Music making is a different sort of activity than the industrial production of standardized products. It's also true that if a musician has a bunch of money, say $1500 they can find someone on the internet to do that work for them. A record label that produces many products can take advantage of economies of scale to lower the cost of production. Anyone who's ever actually had a CD or Record of their music pressed can tell you that even if you sell all the copies, you're not making anything near a living wage. And promotion is another activity of which musicians may not have a serious grasp. They may be downright horrible at it. They may have trouble convincing their friends and neighbors to listen to their music, much less a sufficient quorum of strangers. People who are good at promotion, and enjoy it, may have no musical talent! The ideal situation is for people to specialize in the things for which they have a talent, and work together towards a goal. The most successful and long lived labels are those run by businessmen, not musicians. Businessmen who may have an ear for music, but more important, a talent for organization, promotion, and persuasion. If you can do that all on your own, more power to you. But I have a hard time coming up with one person who really has done it all themselves. On Fri, 17 Jan 2003, Brett Dietsch wrote:

quoted 12 lines On Friday, January 17, 2003, at 02:18 PM, svin wrote:

> > On Friday, January 17, 2003, at 02:18 PM, svin wrote: > > > i dont really know why i need labels if all you > > need to produce and sell - > > is > > a)computer > > b)web > > and all you need to fix a car is a screwdriver and a hammer. > >

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quoted 4 lines If you can do that all on your own, more power to you. But I have a hard

> >If you can do that all on your own, more power to you. But I have a hard >time coming up with one person who really has done it all themselves. >

Frank Zappa --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

nope. He had various business partners over the years for his label ventures. Sure they fucked him over, but they were business partners nonetheless. Ian McKaye is probably the person closest to the "did it all myself" model I can think of. Although he obviously had the help of others along the way also. Jeff

quoted 17 lines From: clic <clic@btinternet.com>

> From: clic <clic@btinternet.com> > Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 23:19:54 +0000 > To: <idm@hyperreal.org> > Subject: Re: [idm] who needs labels? > >> >> If you can do that all on your own, more power to you. But I have a hard >> time coming up with one person who really has done it all themselves. >> > > Frank Zappa > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org > For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org >

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On Fri, 17 Jan 2003 11:18:18 -0800 (PST) svin <svinrave@yahoo.com> wrote:

quoted 5 lines i dont really know why i need labels if all you

>i dont really know why i need labels if all you >need to produce and sell - >is >a)computer >b)web

Because if you want to do something more and better than a CD-R, a label can front the cash. They can also get out the word about your release. It's a helping hand. Quit telling people I serve no purpose! --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

still, the middle men can be cut on all levels __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

quoted 11 lines On Fri, 17 Jan 2003 11:18:18 -0800 (PST)

>On Fri, 17 Jan 2003 11:18:18 -0800 (PST) > svin <svinrave@yahoo.com> wrote: >>i dont really know why i need labels if all you >>need to produce and sell - >>is a)computer >>b)web > >Because if you want to do something more and better than a CD-R, a >label can front the cash. They can also get out the word about your >release. It's a helping hand. >

Plus, a label has a history and a 'sound' to many people. Like Jeff posted, a label does act as a filter of sorts, but it also works as a funnel. If you buy a few things from a small label and like what you hear, you're going to look at the rest of their catalog to see what you might also like. It's like when you buy *anything* and they send you a catalog of things that they also sell. If you like one product, you're likely to go back to them for more. There's nothing out on Eggtastic Industries now, and if there ever is, it probably won't sell very well. Compare that to some no-name coming out on Ninja Tune. Who do you think will sell more, regardless of the music quality -- the no-name on Ninja Tune, or the no-name on no-name? Record labels do more than just put music out -- the good ones put out good music :D derek -- eggytoast.com -------------- commerce soon: eggtastic.com --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

From: "Ryan Verner" Subject: Re: [idm] who needs labels?

quoted 1 line and all you need to fix a car is a screwdriver and a hammer.

> > and all you need to fix a car is a screwdriver and a hammer.

quoted 2 lines And sticky tape.

> And sticky tape. > R

and saliva. .o0O}seeklektek{O0o. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

From: "Brett Dietsch" <elph@lawngnome.org> Subject: Re: [idm] who needs labels?

quoted 11 lines On Friday, January 17, 2003, at 02:32 PM, Ryan Verner wrote:

> > On Friday, January 17, 2003, at 02:32 PM, Ryan Verner wrote: > > On Fri, 17 Jan 2003 14:24:33 -0500 Brett Dietsch <elph@lawngnome.org> > > wrote: > > > >> and all you need to fix a car is a screwdriver and a hammer. > > > > And sticky tape. > > NO. screwdriver and hammer. anything above and beyond leads to > corporate pollution and selfish dystopian capitalism.

One needs a Hammer and Sickle to fix one's car Socialistically. ;) And some Stoli. ;) .o0O}seeklektek{O0o. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

From: "Andrew Hime" Subject: Re: [idm] who needs labels?

quoted 13 lines On Fri, 17 Jan 2003 11:18:18 -0800 (PST)

> On Fri, 17 Jan 2003 11:18:18 -0800 (PST) > svin <svinrave@yahoo.com> wrote: > >i dont really know why i need labels if all you > >need to produce and sell - > >is > >a)computer > >b)web > > Because if you want to do something more and better than a > CD-R, a label can front the cash. They can also get out > the word about your release. It's a helping hand. > > Quit telling people I serve no purpose!

Agreed. =) Good, decent, hard-working label-runners can spare a creator the needed-time (and head-space) to create: a trusted indy label-head is a blessing for a music-maker. "Thank you" to all independent label-heads who truly love the music and work for the artist, not just for themselves, and who work hard to facilitate our listening pleasure. .o0O}seeklektek{O0o. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

future promises changes and they will come so get ready __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

quoted 4 lines and all you need to fix a car is a screwdriver and a hammer.

> >and all you need to fix a car is a screwdriver and a hammer. > >

I thought it was a hammer and a six pack (of beer). P _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

LTJ Bukem :D Richie hawtin... etc... etc.. -----Original Message----- From: Kent williams [mailto:kent@avalon.net] Sent: Friday, January 17, 2003 4:38 PM To: Brett Dietsch Cc: idm@hyperreal.org Subject: Re: [idm] who needs labels? I don't know if it's even wise to start in replying to this, but I have been around the block a few times on this ... A record label is an entity that represents specialization of function. The label finds artists, arranges production and distribution, and handles promotion. It's easy to recognize that someone who makes music doesn't necessarily know anything about how to mass produce their CDs or records. Music making is a different sort of activity than the industrial production of standardized products. It's also true that if a musician has a bunch of money, say $1500 they can find someone on the internet to do that work for them. A record label that produces many products can take advantage of economies of scale to lower the cost of production. Anyone who's ever actually had a CD or Record of their music pressed can tell you that even if you sell all the copies, you're not making anything near a living wage. And promotion is another activity of which musicians may not have a serious grasp. They may be downright horrible at it. They may have trouble convincing their friends and neighbors to listen to their music, much less a sufficient quorum of strangers. People who are good at promotion, and enjoy it, may have no musical talent! The ideal situation is for people to specialize in the things for which they have a talent, and work together towards a goal. The most successful and long lived labels are those run by businessmen, not musicians. Businessmen who may have an ear for music, but more important, a talent for organization, promotion, and persuasion. If you can do that all on your own, more power to you. But I have a hard time coming up with one person who really has done it all themselves. On Fri, 17 Jan 2003, Brett Dietsch wrote:

quoted 12 lines On Friday, January 17, 2003, at 02:18 PM, svin wrote:

> > On Friday, January 17, 2003, at 02:18 PM, svin wrote: > > > i dont really know why i need labels if all you > > need to produce and sell - > > is > > a)computer > > b)web > > and all you need to fix a car is a screwdriver and a hammer. > >

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Most artist run labels have non-artists in the back ground handling the business. Jeff

quoted 88 lines From: "Jesse Merlin" <jesse@ecamp.net>

> From: "Jesse Merlin" <jesse@ecamp.net> > Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 16:54:14 -0500 > To: "'Kent williams'" <kent@avalon.net>, "'Brett Dietsch'" > <elph@lawngnome.org> > Cc: <idm@hyperreal.org> > Subject: RE: [idm] who needs labels? > > LTJ Bukem :D Richie hawtin... etc... etc.. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Kent williams [mailto:kent@avalon.net] > Sent: Friday, January 17, 2003 4:38 PM > To: Brett Dietsch > Cc: idm@hyperreal.org > Subject: Re: [idm] who needs labels? > > I don't know if it's even wise to start in replying to this, but I have > been around the block a few times on this ... > > A record label is an entity that represents specialization of function. > The label finds artists, arranges production and distribution, and > handles > promotion. > > It's easy to recognize that someone who makes music doesn't necessarily > know > anything about how to mass produce their CDs or records. Music making > is > a different sort of activity than the industrial production of > standardized > products. It's also true that if a musician has a bunch of money, say > $1500 > they can find someone on the internet to do that work for them. A > record > label that produces many products can take advantage of economies of > scale > to lower the cost of production. Anyone who's ever actually had a CD or > Record of their music pressed can tell you that even if you sell all the > copies, you're not making anything near a living wage. > > And promotion is another activity of which musicians may not have a > serious > grasp. They may be downright horrible at it. They may have trouble > convincing > their friends and neighbors to listen to their music, much less a > sufficient > quorum of strangers. People who are good at promotion, and enjoy it, > may have > no musical talent! > > The ideal situation is for people to specialize in the things for which > they > have a talent, and work together towards a goal. The most successful > and > long lived labels are those run by businessmen, not musicians. > Businessmen > who may have an ear for music, but more important, a talent for > organization, > promotion, and persuasion. > > If you can do that all on your own, more power to you. But I have a hard > time coming up with one person who really has done it all themselves. > > On Fri, 17 Jan 2003, Brett Dietsch wrote: >> >> On Friday, January 17, 2003, at 02:18 PM, svin wrote: >> >>> i dont really know why i need labels if all you >>> need to produce and sell - >>> is >>> a)computer >>> b)web >> >> and all you need to fix a car is a screwdriver and a hammer. >> >> > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org > For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org > For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org >

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From: "Jesse Merlin" <jesse@ecamp.net> To: "'Kent williams'" <kent@avalon.net>; "'Brett Dietsch'" <elph@lawngnome.org> Subject: RE: [idm] who needs labels?

quoted 1 line LTJ Bukem :D Richie hawtin... etc... etc..

> LTJ Bukem :D Richie hawtin... etc... etc..

Phthalocyanine: Dimitri Fergadis: Phthalo. .o0O}seeklektek{O0o.

quoted 81 lines -----Original Message-----

> > -----Original Message----- > From: Kent williams [mailto:kent@avalon.net] > Sent: Friday, January 17, 2003 4:38 PM > To: Brett Dietsch > Cc: idm@hyperreal.org > Subject: Re: [idm] who needs labels? > > I don't know if it's even wise to start in replying to this, but I have > been around the block a few times on this ... > > A record label is an entity that represents specialization of function. > The label finds artists, arranges production and distribution, and > handles > promotion. > > It's easy to recognize that someone who makes music doesn't necessarily > know > anything about how to mass produce their CDs or records. Music making > is > a different sort of activity than the industrial production of > standardized > products. It's also true that if a musician has a bunch of money, say > $1500 > they can find someone on the internet to do that work for them. A > record > label that produces many products can take advantage of economies of > scale > to lower the cost of production. Anyone who's ever actually had a CD or > Record of their music pressed can tell you that even if you sell all the > copies, you're not making anything near a living wage. > > And promotion is another activity of which musicians may not have a > serious > grasp. They may be downright horrible at it. They may have trouble > convincing > their friends and neighbors to listen to their music, much less a > sufficient > quorum of strangers. People who are good at promotion, and enjoy it, > may have > no musical talent! > > The ideal situation is for people to specialize in the things for which > they > have a talent, and work together towards a goal. The most successful > and > long lived labels are those run by businessmen, not musicians. > Businessmen > who may have an ear for music, but more important, a talent for > organization, > promotion, and persuasion. > > If you can do that all on your own, more power to you. But I have a hard > time coming up with one person who really has done it all themselves. > > On Fri, 17 Jan 2003, Brett Dietsch wrote: > > > > On Friday, January 17, 2003, at 02:18 PM, svin wrote: > > > > > i dont really know why i need labels if all you > > > need to produce and sell - > > > is > > > a)computer > > > b)web > > > > and all you need to fix a car is a screwdriver and a hammer. > > > > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org > For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org > For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org > >

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From: "clic" Subject: Re: [idm] who needs labels?

quoted 2 lines If you can do that all on your own, more power to you. But I have a hard

> >If you can do that all on your own, more power to you. But I have a hard > >time coming up with one person who really has done it all themselves.

quoted 1 line Frank Zappa

> Frank Zappa

Guffaw. "...did it all" himself? Really? Tell that to Don Van Vliet. .o0O}seeklektek{O0o. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

Because the entire world is not on the web. If you want to market yourself exclusively to people who: A. have access to a computer and B. have an affinity to use computers for leisure then you're fine. But the entire world is not the relatively small sub-section of Europe and Noth America that has reasonably easy and inexpensive access to computers and the internet. And we could extend the argument to other industries as well: 1. Why do people hire real estate agents to sell their home? 2. Why do people seek the advice of a banker for a loan when they could arrange one over the phone? 3. Why do people trade in their cars to an auto dealership rather than selling them from home? People find convenience and expertise in the people in these (and hundreds of other) professions. No, YOU don't have to use a label but don't discount their appeal and utility to others. ----- Original Message ----- From: "svin" <svinrave@yahoo.com> To: "Jeff/Ninja Tune" <jeff@ninjatune.net> Cc: <idm@hyperreal.org> Sent: Friday, January 17, 2003 1:18 PM Subject: [idm] who needs labels?

quoted 16 lines i dont really know why i need labels if all you

> i dont really know why i need labels if all you > need to produce and sell - > is > a)computer > b)web > > __________________________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. > http://mailplus.yahoo.com > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org > For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org > >

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i dont need a label to share my music . labels r traditionalists..i havent got too much money or power but internet is easy way to share our music... manual era > mechanic era > magnetic era > digital era > ... i dunno next one... digital era is end of the music labels... --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

you got a real vision there __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

And I suppose that the digital era is the end of all intermediaries........investment advisors, realtors, mechanics, lawyers, internet site designers, advertising firms, etc., etc. Sure, every "revolution" has its dinosaur that dies off but I don't see these roles disappearing. Evolving perhaps but not dying. ----- Original Message ----- From: "tolga" <tolgak@abitco.com> To: <idm@hyperreal.org> Sent: Friday, January 17, 2003 8:14 PM Subject: Re: [idm] who needs labels?

quoted 1 line i dont need a label to share my music . labels r traditionalists..i havent

> i dont need a label to share my music . labels r traditionalists..i havent

got

quoted 12 lines too much money or power but internet is easy way to share our music...

> too much money or power but internet is easy way to share our music... > manual era > mechanic era > magnetic era > digital era > ... i dunno next > one... > > digital era is end of the music labels... > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org > For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org > >

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From: "David Ross" Subject: Re: [idm] who needs labels?

quoted 5 lines And I suppose that the digital era is the end of all

> And I suppose that the digital era is the end of all > intermediaries........investment advisors, realtors, mechanics, lawyers, > internet site designers, advertising firms, etc., etc. > Sure, every "revolution" has its dinosaur that dies off but I don't see > these roles disappearing. Evolving perhaps but not dying.

'Evolving' would be nice. 'Devolving' might not be so bad, either. .o0O}seeklektek{O0o. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

i think everyone should just release tapes, and DIY it. -t --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

I am going to make a assumption that the part of the world that doesn't have easy acess to the web probaly also doesn't have a big selection of music stores in their neighboorhood either. This is just a guess. zach

quoted 55 lines Because the entire world is not on the web.

> >Because the entire world is not on the web. > >If you want to market yourself exclusively to people who: >A. have access to a computer and >B. have an affinity to use computers for leisure >then you're fine. > >But the entire world is not the relatively small sub-section of Europe and >Noth America that has reasonably easy and inexpensive access to computers >and the internet. > >And we could extend the argument to other industries as well: > >1. Why do people hire real estate agents to sell their home? >2. Why do people seek the advice of a banker for a loan when they could >arrange one over the phone? >3. Why do people trade in their cars to an auto dealership rather than >selling them from home? > >People find convenience and expertise in the people in these (and hundreds >of other) professions. No, YOU don't have to use a label but don't >discount >their appeal and utility to others. > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "svin" <svinrave@yahoo.com> >To: "Jeff/Ninja Tune" <jeff@ninjatune.net> >Cc: <idm@hyperreal.org> >Sent: Friday, January 17, 2003 1:18 PM >Subject: [idm] who needs labels? > > > > i dont really know why i need labels if all you > > need to produce and sell - > > is > > a)computer > > b)web > > > > __________________________________________________ > > Do you Yahoo!? > > Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. > > http://mailplus.yahoo.com > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org > > For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org > > > > > > > >--------------------------------------------------------------------- >To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org >For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

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Z Moser said the following on 19/01/2003 3:09:

quoted 5 lines I am going to make a assumption that the part of the world that doesn't

> I am going to make a assumption that the part of the world that doesn't >have easy acess to the web probaly also doesn't have a big selection of >music stores in their neighboorhood either. This is just a guess. > >

And I'd guess you're wrong. Internet *access* alone isn't sufficient for p2p music-sharing to work, it needs to be private, dedicated and cheap. How much time and money is it going to cost to download an album over a shared 56k dialup from a Calcutta cyber cafe, or somewhere similar in Thailand, China, Brazil, etc? It would almost always be cheaper to buy it from a local or online music store. -- R --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

you r right now about money, internet connection speed isnt enough, maybe we pay more money to download an album from internet than buying a labeled album ... we r livin in temporary time. and internet kills the music labels with too much connection speed in the future.... Richard Barnett wrote:

quoted 24 lines Z Moser said the following on 19/01/2003 3:09:

> Z Moser said the following on 19/01/2003 3:09: > > > I am going to make a assumption that the part of the world that doesn't > >have easy acess to the web probaly also doesn't have a big selection of > >music stores in their neighboorhood either. This is just a guess. > > > > > And I'd guess you're wrong. > > Internet *access* alone isn't sufficient for p2p music-sharing to work, > it needs to be private, dedicated and cheap. > > How much time and money is it going to cost to download an album over a > shared 56k dialup from a Calcutta cyber cafe, or somewhere similar in > Thailand, China, Brazil, etc? > > It would almost always be cheaper to buy it from a local or online music > store. > > -- R > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org > For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

-- ÿØÿà --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

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quoted 12 lines Z Moser said the following on 19/01/2003 3:09:

> >Z Moser said the following on 19/01/2003 3:09: > >> I am going to make a assumption that the part of the world that doesn't >>have easy acess to the web probaly also doesn't have a big selection of >>music stores in their neighboorhood either. This is just a guess. >> >> >And I'd guess you're wrong. > >Internet *access* alone isn't sufficient for p2p music-sharing to work, it >needs to be private, dedicated and cheap.

This is true. Except for those places that it is allready private dedicated and cheap. So I guess you are right it wouldn't work for the whole world, but that doesn't mean it can't work for part of it.

quoted 4 lines How much time and money is it going to cost to download an album over a

> >How much time and money is it going to cost to download an album over a >shared 56k dialup from a Calcutta cyber cafe, or somewhere similar in >Thailand, China, Brazil, etc?

I'm not sure, I've never lived in or visited these places nor reasearched these prices.

quoted 3 lines It would almost always be cheaper to buy it from a local or online music

> >It would almost always be cheaper to buy it from a local or online music >store.

Still, how do you know what your buying? I guess it's back to the guessing and hoping game for these unfortunate peoples. zach _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

David Ross wrote:

quoted 4 lines And I suppose that the digital era is the end of all

>And I suppose that the digital era is the end of all >intermediaries........investment advisors, realtors, mechanics, lawyers, >internet site designers, advertising firms, etc., etc. >

I doubt that very much, but the roles may be radically transformed and rearranged. In particular -- if there are alternatives -- why would artists want to continue to sign away the rights to their work to labels? John

quoted 43 lines Sure, every "revolution" has its dinosaur that dies off but I don't see

> >Sure, every "revolution" has its dinosaur that dies off but I don't see >these roles disappearing. Evolving perhaps but not dying. > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "tolga" <tolgak@abitco.com> >To: <idm@hyperreal.org> >Sent: Friday, January 17, 2003 8:14 PM >Subject: Re: [idm] who needs labels? > > > > >>i dont need a label to share my music . labels r traditionalists..i havent >> >> >got > > >>too much money or power but internet is easy way to share our music... >>manual era > mechanic era > magnetic era > digital era > ... i dunno next >>one... >> >>digital era is end of the music labels... >> >> >>--------------------------------------------------------------------- >>To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org >>For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org >> >> >> >> > > > >--------------------------------------------------------------------- >To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org >For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org > > > >

-- John von Seggern producer - DJ - researcher email <johnvon at digitalcutuplounge dot com> bio <http://www.digitalcutuplounge.com/newsite/jvsremix.htm> home <http://www.digitalcutuplounge.com> school <http://ethnomus.ucr.edu/jvs/bio.html> --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

Just a general reply to the P2P discussion -- the reality is that there *are* economic and legal alternatives that might cut through the current impasse, but the RIAA have stalled and blocked any progress towards a solution because Internet distribution directly threatens their monopoly on music distribution and thus the harsh control they exercise over the industry as a whole. For example, one idea being heard a lot recently is the idea of a compulsory license, where everyone accessing the Web will have to pay a monthly fee [say a few dollars] and will then be able to freely download whatever music they want from wherever they want. An independent body would be in charge of measuring [probably by surveying/sampling] downloading activity and calculating payments, which could be made directly to artists. The RIAA may eventually come to accept this solution, but not without a fight... John Renick Bell wrote:

quoted 97 lines How much time and money is it going to cost to download an album over

>> How much time and money is it going to cost to download an album over >> a shared 56k >> > > dialup from a Calcutta cyber cafe, or somewhere similar in Thailand, > China, Brazil, etc? > > A friend of mine just returned from a business trip to Shang Hai. > Dial-up accounts are > free all over China, I've been told; you just pay the cost of the > local call. > > The friend said much is available on the street or in markets; this > person wasn't a fan > of idm, but I'd guess that you aren't going to pick up Delarosa and > Asora from a > bootlegger there. Still, if you are one of the lucky minority in > Shanghai who can afford > a PC (which is as cheap as the states, if not cheaper), then the cost > for obtaining > something via p2p is considerably cheaper than buying a Made in the > USA imported IDM 12" > or CD. On a monthly salary of $571 (rough liberal average for rookie > white-collar > worker), that's a lot of incentive to use p2p. These same people, like > their Western > counterparts, are working in companies with T1 lines or DSL, where > they are able to spend > their employed time just as many in the West are or were able to. > >> From what I know, cyber cafes in Thailand and China aren't using 56k; >> they're broadband. > > You'd be surprised. I couldn't get reliable DSL service living in > Harlem for more than a > year after I first subscribed. Now, living in Asia, I live in the > freaking mountains and > had DSL within 2 weeks (it has been perfectly reliable ever since). > Verizon couldn't do > that shit. > > There's a widely held misconception state-side that America is > technologically superior > to anywhere else on the planet. More Americans ought to travel more; > they'd begin to see > that life in America isn't so grand, or at least doesn't have a > monopoly on reasonable > standards of living. There is little doubt that many more people > suffer than belong to > the wired class (for a variety of reasons); but Americans are often > ignorant about the > truth of living standards in various places around the world. > > So, back to IDM and p2p... have you ever been record shopping in > Tokyo? There's a > shocking experience. CDs in Japan are extremely expensive, making p2p > look even better > for consumers there. While I'm not too sure about the number of p2p > users downloading IDM > in China or elsewhere in Asia, I'm sure Japan has a large number of > users. > > I understand Jeff's points about the benefits for artists provided > labels, but I don't > understand his skepticism about the online world. At any rate, it's an > argument about > economics and practicality that's been rehashed here dozens of times. > The customer will > always try to find a way to get the same product for less. When p2p > makes it so easy, > there is only time between now and the end of label-as-business (as we > know it). There > will be clever business people (probably not musicians) who will > figure out the model for > profitting on this new way; hearing labels gripe is like listening to > the frustrated and > dying old guy in a wheelchair at the nursing home, griping to everyone > about how the food > doesn't taste as good and how his family doesn't visit as much as they > used to. Sure, > it's sad, but he's going to pass away, and he'll be forgotten. His > family and close > friends will mourn for a while, but even they will move on. > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Everything you'll ever need on one web page > from News and Sport to Email and Music Charts > http://uk.my.yahoo.com > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org > For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org > > > >

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quoted 8 lines For example, one idea being heard a lot recently is the idea of a

>For example, one idea being heard a lot recently is the idea of a >compulsory license, where everyone accessing the Web will have to pay a >monthly fee [say a few dollars] and will then be able to freely download >whatever music they want from wherever they want. An independent body >would be in charge of measuring [probably by surveying/sampling] >downloading activity and calculating payments, which could be made >directly to artists. The RIAA may eventually come to accept this solution, >but not without a fight...

See, I don't see how a blanket license would work, either. Certainly, not everyone who uses the internet uses it to download music, even those with high speed connections. Me, for example; I may say "I download something I've heard some good things about but I'm not sure about buying it," but I actually download very little music -- maybe a track a month or so. Never an album. I tried downloading an album or two a while back and although I got every track, I never listened to it. I had other CDs that I actually spent money on that demanded more of my time, if for no other reason than the money issue. The thing that bugs me about that is that a blanket license would not be an equal license. People who download very little music, akin to the radio or radio taping, are not a problem to the record industry. And people who download tons of stuff would be going above and beyond what the license covers and use that as an excuse to certainly not buy anything. What's really funny about "losing sales to piracy" is that there are probably few sales actually *lost* to piracy, unless you're considering people who buy something and then dislike it. If someone likes something, they're usually very willing to buy it eventually. I mean, MP3's are akin to borrowing a friend's CD for a while for those people -- they listen to it a few times and decide to pick it up for themselves soon. But the people who buy albums blindly, or based on a few songs (like most "popular" albums that get radio play) are bought by people who like the one song, but may very well dislike the album as a whole. Those are the people that are turning down purchases thanks to p2p, and I see that more as quality control than as "lost sales." If I make a car that runs fine but falls apart after a month, some people are going to be duped into buying it, but after a while the public will get clued in that I make a crappy product overall. The record industry tries to avoid that by releasing such a massive volume of music. Personally, I think that's why p2p won't really affect the smaller labels, for the sole reason that most albums that come from smaller labels are consistent throughout the entire album. There aren't "hits" and there's rarely filler, so there actually is incentive for album purchase. That rarely exists in more "mainstream" albums. But, of course, this has all been hashed through countless times before :D derek ------- eggytoast.com ------- coming soon: eggtastic.com --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

True enough. It's hard to argue that the music selection available at the HMV in Zimbabwe is the same as at my local mall. What I meant is that there are a lot of people outside of the US that don't have easy access to the internet.....especially high speed connections. For example I live in Winnipeg, Canada....population 650,000....so it's a reasonably large city. If you live a 15 minute drive outside of the city there is no high speed access. And Petersfield, Canada is hardly sub-Saharan Africa. As well, my sister lives in Downtown Winnipeg with full access to music stores just a few minutes walk away. However she cannot afford cable TV let alone the purchase price of a computer and the monthly subscription fee to high speed internet. If an artist wanted to reach my sister as a potential listener distributing solely through the internet won't work. And not just because she can't afford the computer and internet access either. She also just can't be bothered to use a computer. SHe has no interest in it. Z Moser wrote:

quoted 15 lines I am going to make a assumption that the part of the world that doesn't

> I am going to make a assumption that the part of the world that doesn't > have easy acess to the web probaly also doesn't have a big selection of > music stores in their neighboorhood either. This is just a guess. > > zach > > > > >Because the entire world is not on the web. > > > >If you want to market yourself exclusively to people who: > >A. have access to a computer and > >B. have an affinity to use computers for leisure > >then you're fine. > > > >But the entire world is not the relatively small sub-section of Europe

and

quoted 12 lines Noth America that has reasonably easy and inexpensive access to computers

> >Noth America that has reasonably easy and inexpensive access to computers > >and the internet. > > > >And we could extend the argument to other industries as well: > > > >1. Why do people hire real estate agents to sell their home? > >2. Why do people seek the advice of a banker for a loan when they could > >arrange one over the phone? > >3. Why do people trade in their cars to an auto dealership rather than > >selling them from home? > > > >People find convenience and expertise in the people in these (and

hundreds

quoted 46 lines of other) professions. No, YOU don't have to use a label but don't

> >of other) professions. No, YOU don't have to use a label but don't > >discount > >their appeal and utility to others. > > > >----- Original Message ----- > >From: "svin" <svinrave@yahoo.com> > >To: "Jeff/Ninja Tune" <jeff@ninjatune.net> > >Cc: <idm@hyperreal.org> > >Sent: Friday, January 17, 2003 1:18 PM > >Subject: [idm] who needs labels? > > > > > > > i dont really know why i need labels if all you > > > need to produce and sell - > > > is > > > a)computer > > > b)web > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > > > Do you Yahoo!? > > > Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. > > > http://mailplus.yahoo.com > > > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org > > > For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org > > > > > > > > > > > > > >--------------------------------------------------------------------- > >To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org > >For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Help STOP SPAM: Try the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org > For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org > >

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quoted 6 lines How much time and money is it going to cost to download an album over a

> >How much time and money is it going to cost to download an album over a > >shared 56k dialup from a Calcutta cyber cafe, or somewhere similar in > >Thailand, China, Brazil, etc? > > I'm not sure, I've never lived in or visited these places nor reasearched > these prices.

I live in London, and could easily get a broadband connection at home, but haven't bothered. While it would be nice, it's not that interesting. Spend my working life in front of a PC, so try avoid it at home. Barely ever shop online for music either, and to be perfectly honest, find the idea of purely digital distribution for music fairly mortifying (hey, I still buy vinyl too, so I guess I'm just old fashioned) One of my great joys in life is browsing in record shops. I've even got to know some of the guys in some of the shops I go to, and they can recommend stuff, and hell, they'll all let me spin the discs to see if I like what I'm going to buy. Call it human contact, call it organic - Whatever. Oh well. This is one of those "god exists / god doesn't exist" arguments anyway. Is the Soft Pink Truth album as good as Promo Funk? Oh, and the new Mira Calix is pretty damn sweet. Anyone who knows any parts of South Africa might recognise a few track titles. -i. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

Iain Forfar said the following on 20/01/2003 7:16:

quoted 15 lines How much time and money is it going to cost to download an album over a

>>>How much time and money is it going to cost to download an album over a >>>shared 56k dialup from a Calcutta cyber cafe, or somewhere similar in >>>Thailand, China, Brazil, etc? >>> >>> >>I'm not sure, I've never lived in or visited these places nor reasearched >>these prices. >> >> >One of my great joys in life is browsing in record shops. I've even got to >know some of the guys in some of the shops I go to, and they can recommend >stuff, and hell, they'll all let me spin the discs to see if I like what I'm >going to buy. Call it human contact, call it organic - Whatever. > >

I fully agree. I loved browsing the London & Manchester record shops, and figured they'd got to know me when they started giving me discounts for buying in bulk :-) I felt a mixture of pride and shame over that. Record shops here in Sydney are IMO nowhere near as good: they stock a smaller range and get new releases rather late. For me, though, the draw of p2p is all the stuff which isn't available in any record shop: the bootlegs & radio mixes which make up the majority of my downloads. -- Richard

quoted 8 lines True enough. It's hard to argue that the music selection available at the

>True enough. It's hard to argue that the music selection available at the >HMV in Zimbabwe is the same as at my local mall. What I meant is that >there >are a lot of people outside of the US that don't have easy access to the >internet.....especially high speed connections. For example I live in >Winnipeg, Canada....population 650,000....so it's a reasonably large city. >If you live a 15 minute drive outside of the city there is no high speed >access. And Petersfield, Canada is hardly sub-Saharan Africa.

I understand this completely. I have the same problem. I still use a 56k dial up, but I only pay 6.95 a month for it. So it is still cheaper than buying cds.

quoted 11 lines As well, my sister lives in Downtown Winnipeg with full access to music

> >As well, my sister lives in Downtown Winnipeg with full access to music >stores just a few minutes walk away. However she cannot afford cable TV >let >alone the purchase price of a computer and the monthly subscription fee to >high speed internet. If an artist wanted to reach my sister as a potential >listener distributing solely through the internet won't work. > >And not just because she can't afford the computer and internet access >either. She also just can't be bothered to use a computer. SHe has no >interest in it.

I understand this. At the same time an artist that can only afford to reach people through the internet probably isn't going to reach her by common means of advertisement either, but the artist might reach one of her friends, or perhaps a brother, through the internet. Then that person might transfer the information to her via vocal communication protocols. :) OK I'm getting a little silly.

quoted 91 lines Z Moser wrote:

> > >Z Moser wrote: > > > > I am going to make a assumption that the part of the world that >doesn't > > have easy access to the web probably also doesn't have a big selection >of > > music stores in their neighborhood either. This is just a guess. > > > > zach > > > > > > > >Because the entire world is not on the web. > > > > > >If you want to market yourself exclusively to people who: > > >A. have access to a computer and > > >B. have an affinity to use computers for leisure > > >then you're fine. > > > > > >But the entire world is not the relatively small sub-section of Europe >and > > >Noth America that has reasonably easy and inexpensive access to >computers > > >and the internet. > > > > > >And we could extend the argument to other industries as well: > > > > > >1. Why do people hire real estate agents to sell their home? > > >2. Why do people seek the advice of a banker for a loan when they >could > > >arrange one over the phone? > > >3. Why do people trade in their cars to an auto dealership rather than > > >selling them from home? > > > > > >People find convenience and expertise in the people in these (and >hundreds > > >of other) professions. No, YOU don't have to use a label but don't > > >discount > > >their appeal and utility to others. > > > > > >----- Original Message ----- > > >From: "svin" <svinrave@yahoo.com> > > >To: "Jeff/Ninja Tune" <jeff@ninjatune.net> > > >Cc: <idm@hyperreal.org> > > >Sent: Friday, January 17, 2003 1:18 PM > > >Subject: [idm] who needs labels? > > > > > > > > > > i dont really know why i need labels if all you > > > > need to produce and sell - > > > > is > > > > a)computer > > > > b)web > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > > > > Do you Yahoo!? > > > > Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. > > > > http://mailplus.yahoo.com > > > > > > > > >--------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org > > > > For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >--------------------------------------------------------------------- > > >To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org > > >For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > Help STOP SPAM: Try the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* > > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail > > > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org > > For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org > > > > > > > >--------------------------------------------------------------------- >To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org >For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

_________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

EggyToast wrote:

quoted 7 lines For example, one idea being heard a lot recently is the idea of a

> >> For example, one idea being heard a lot recently is the idea of a >> compulsory license, where everyone accessing the Web will have to pay >> a monthly fee [say a few dollars] and will then be able to freely >> download whatever music they want from wherever they want. > > See, I don't see how a blanket license would work, either.

Points well taken...there are a lot of problems with the compulsory license suggestion too. Another problem is that you couldn't do this only for music -- eventually video, text, images, and software would have to be addressed as well. But OTOH -- do you have any better ideas? This compulsory license idea has emerged as a likely contender for a solution because everything-for-free is not a solution, DRM/copy protection will not work, and there remains a huge consumer demand for obtaining music through P2P systems. Plus, whatever the [debatable] effect of P2P on record sales at the moment, in the long run widespread broadband and improving P2P tech will result in a situation where you can get the full CD-quality files of anything...I can imagine buying many CDs myself when it gets to that point. Some people will perhaps continue buying music in physical form, but that market will shrink drastically in the long run, I think. This proposal is currently being discussed quite widely on the Net...what does anybody else think? In spite of its problems, at the moment I'm personally leaning in favor of the idea...Digital Cutup Lounge gets far more downloads than CD sales, and it would be great to get paid for that. If implemented correctly, the effect of this ought to be to direct a lot more money toward the kind of non-mass-market artists we talk about here on the IDM list -- their fair share anyway. Actually this proposal should be ESPECIALLY good for IDM as a genre because I would guess IDM and electronic music in general have a higher proportion of computer-literate fans who download tracks and that would show up in the statistics. John

quoted 56 lines Certainly, not everyone who uses the internet uses it to download

> Certainly, not everyone who uses the internet uses it to download > music, even those with high speed connections. Me, for example; I may > say "I download something I've heard some good things about but I'm > not sure about buying it," but I actually download very little music > -- maybe a track a month or so. Never an album. I tried downloading > an album or two a while back and although I got every track, I never > listened to it. I had other CDs that I actually spent money on that > demanded more of my time, if for no other reason than the money issue. > > The thing that bugs me about that is that a blanket license would not > be an equal license. People who download very little music, akin to > the radio or radio taping, are not a problem to the record industry. > And people who download tons of stuff would be going above and beyond > what the license covers and use that as an excuse to certainly not buy > anything. > > What's really funny about "losing sales to piracy" is that there are > probably few sales actually *lost* to piracy, unless you're > considering people who buy something and then dislike it. If someone > likes something, they're usually very willing to buy it eventually. I > mean, MP3's are akin to borrowing a friend's CD for a while for those > people -- they listen to it a few times and decide to pick it up for > themselves soon. But the people who buy albums blindly, or based on a > few songs (like most "popular" albums that get radio play) are bought > by people who like the one song, but may very well dislike the album > as a whole. Those are the people that are turning down purchases > thanks to p2p, and I see that more as quality control than as "lost > sales." > > If I make a car that runs fine but falls apart after a month, some > people are going to be duped into buying it, but after a while the > public will get clued in that I make a crappy product overall. The > record industry tries to avoid that by releasing such a massive volume > of music. Personally, I think that's why p2p won't really affect the > smaller labels, for the sole reason that most albums that come from > smaller labels are consistent throughout the entire album. There > aren't "hits" and there's rarely filler, so there actually is > incentive for album purchase. That rarely exists in more "mainstream" > albums. > > But, of course, this has all been hashed through countless times > before :D > > derek > ------- > eggytoast.com > ------- > coming soon: eggtastic.com > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org > For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org > >

-- John von Seggern producer - DJ - researcher email <johnvon at digitalcutuplounge dot com> bio <http://www.digitalcutuplounge.com/newsite/jvsremix.htm> home <http://www.digitalcutuplounge.com> school <http://ethnomus.ucr.edu/jvs/bio.html> --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

quoted 7 lines Date: Sun, 19 Jan 2003 19:22:51 -0800

>Date: Sun, 19 Jan 2003 19:22:51 -0800 >To: EggyToast <eggy@eggytoast.com> >From: John von Seggern <johnvon@digitalcutuplounge.com> >Cc: idm@hyperreal.org >Subject: Re: [idm] who needs labels? >Message-id: <3E2B6B8B.30205@digitalcutuplounge.com> >

<>

quoted 1 line In spite of its problems, at the moment I'm personally leaning in favor

>In spite of its problems, at the moment I'm personally leaning in favor

Hold on, don't you think there's something wrong with a world where a record is kept of every song you have ever listened to. (I'm sure Donald Rumsfeld, Poindexter and their buddies over on the lunatic fringe would love this idea though).

quoted 10 lines of the idea...Digital Cutup Lounge gets far more downloads than CD

>of the idea...Digital Cutup Lounge gets far more downloads than CD >sales, and it would be great to get paid for that. If implemented >correctly, the effect of this ought to be to direct a lot more money >toward the kind of non-mass-market artists we talk about here on the IDM >list -- their fair share anyway. > >Actually this proposal should be ESPECIALLY good for IDM as a genre >because I would guess IDM and electronic music in general have a higher >proportion of computer-literate fans who download tracks and that would >show up in the statistics.

<> The techy angle could be another factor in why so many electronica labels are going to the wall now. If a royalty system works anything like UK radio+tv royalties, the indies won't get a look in because the system will be based on sampling - and Phil Collins will get the lion's share. The old reason for sampling was that there would have been too much paperwork and admin involved in recording all the details of every song played on every station - so everybody's money would get split between just the artists on rotation. Now that the admin can be automated and the paperwork eliminated, perhaps privacy issues will become the new reason for limited sampling. -- http://www.noiseloop.com --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org