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my brother once told me that some scientists/mathematicians calculated that in some years/centuries/milleniums every single possible combination of tones will be composed. has someone heard of this calculation as well? when do they say will every song be written? i can`t imagine what it`s like to live in a world where no new song will be released. strange... hopefully i`m dead by then! ;) ° ° ° ° ° °° ° °° °° ° ° °

--- ..chris?? <Chris-Griffin@Web.de> wrote:

quoted 4 lines my brother once told me that some

> my brother once told me that some > scientists/mathematicians calculated that in some > years/centuries/milleniums every single possible > combination of tones will be composed.

I haven't even listened to a 100th of the music that has already been written. Even if no new music was made from tomorrow on there'd be enough music I haven't heard to keep me going for the rest of my life. -skkatter __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your site http://webhosting.yahoo.com --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

Quoting ..chris?? (Chris-Griffin@Web.de):

quoted 6 lines my brother once told me that some scientists/mathematicians calculated

> my brother once told me that some scientists/mathematicians calculated > that in some years/centuries/milleniums every single possible > combination of tones will be composed. has someone heard of this > calculation as well? when do they say will every song be written? i > can`t imagine what it`s like to live in a world where no new song will > be released. strange...

Well, it's nonsense. They probably argued that the set of all songs is countably infinite, but thats still infinite. Say you make a song with the duration of one second, they I can always make a different song, I just make it one second longer. Arguably maybe there's far less melodies, however, it's going to be an awfull lot of them still... -- http://defekt.nl/ --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

quoted 9 lines my brother once told me that some scientists/mathematicians

>my brother once told me that some scientists/mathematicians >calculated that in some years/centuries/milleniums every single >possible combination of tones will be composed. >has someone heard of this calculation as well? when do they say will >every song be written? >i can`t imagine what it`s like to live in a world where no new song >will be released. >strange... >hopefully i`m dead by then! ;)

What's the definition of a "combination?" obviously if the calculation was "x possible tones, x possible length," then it's a very easy calculation. however, as there's no limit to the length of a performance, and any possible combination of notes could have the same 'infinity' problem that any number has, I don't see how the calculation is possible. All you'd have to do is say "combination +1 note" and it's new. Infinite possiblities. derek -- eggytoast.com -------------- commerce soon: eggtastic.com --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

i think it.s perfect that everyone responds to this thread with logicmath and with equations (infinity plus one type stuff) ,whereas the real reason of course that there will not be a time when every song has been written is because HUMANBEINGS make songs ,not computers. humanbeings don.t fit into equations ,natch. and thus even though i might write a song with the same chords in the same order as yours ,it.ll always be different because of the filter of my experiences that the chords have to move through to be written. and so all the textures ,framing ,rythyms ,melodies etc. are all mine and mine alone and mean something to me which is different than other people. so music is safe and sound as long as we are alive as a species...(knock wood). .d: __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your site http://webhosting.yahoo.com --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

On Monday, November 18, 2002, at 03:09 PM, deadend SYNTHETIC wrote:

quoted 16 lines i think it.s perfect that everyone responds to this

> i think it.s perfect that everyone responds to this > thread with logicmath and with equations (infinity > plus one type stuff) ,whereas the real reason of > course that there will not be a time when every song > has been written is because HUMANBEINGS make songs > ,not computers. humanbeings don.t fit into equations > ,natch. and thus even though i might write a song with > the same chords in the same order as yours ,it.ll > always be different because of the filter of my > experiences that the chords have to move through to be > written. and so all the textures ,framing ,rythyms > ,melodies etc. are all mine and mine alone and mean > something to me which is different than other people. > so music is safe and sound as long as we are alive as > a species...(knock wood). > .d:

the only person percieving your experience and its influence on your progression is you. to the rest of the world, a c is still a c. to say "but my chord progression MEANS something different than his" is silly if its the same progression. but. extending the length of non-looping chord progression, which can be infinitely extended, would keep something from being replicated. time is an issue, as it allows more variance. the minute something loops, it ends. playing a 4 measure piece infinitely does not make it an infinitely long piece. will anyone ever write an infinitely long piece? no. anyone wanna argue that? --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

quoted 6 lines will anyone ever write an infinitely long piece?

> >will anyone ever write an infinitely long piece? > >no. > >anyone wanna argue that?

Sure, why not. We're already to the point where people are writing music using mathematics. Classically speaking, there was Iannis Xenakis, and in modern times there are numerous "algorithmically based" tracks out there. What's to stop someone from creating a song based on irrational numbers, such as pi, and saying 'this can be performed forever." or are you saying that no one will ever record or perform such a piece? Cos the writing is the easy part! derek -- eggytoast.com -------------- commerce soon: eggtastic.com --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

<<Say you make a song with the duration of one second, they I can always make a different song, I just make it one second longer.>> of course i was talking about DIFFERENT songs and not about the limitation of adding seconds to an existing song. and of course the song shouldn`t just be a collection of tones. at least it should have SOME KIND of structure/melody. sure you can make a track that consists of all songs you know. and you can still clame that it`s a new combination of tones...but i was talking about originality. ° ° ° ° ° °° ° °° °° ° ° ° ----- Original Message ----- From: wires To: idm Sent: Monday, November 18, 2002 8:04 PM Subject: Re: [idm] the end of all music? Quoting ..chris?? (Chris-Griffin@Web.de): > my brother once told me that some scientists/mathematicians calculated > that in some years/centuries/milleniums every single possible > combination of tones will be composed. has someone heard of this > calculation as well? when do they say will every song be written? i > can`t imagine what it`s like to live in a world where no new song will > be released. strange... Well, it's nonsense. They probably argued that the set of all songs is countably infinite, but thats still infinite. Say you make a song with the duration of one second, they I can always make a different song, I just make it one second longer. Arguably maybe there's far less melodies, however, it's going to be an awfull lot of them still... -- http://defekt.nl/ --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

i'm sensing this thread is about to descend into a maelstrom of clashing notions of what originality is. so before that happens, i just want to say that the whole theory about a finite amount of melodies or whatever the fuck is fucking retarded. FUCK! On Monday, November 18, 2002, at 02:13 PM, ..chris°° wrote:

quoted 51 lines <<Say you make a song with

> <<Say you make a song with > the duration of one second, they I can always make a different song, I > just make it one second longer.>> > > of course i was talking about DIFFERENT songs and not about the > limitation of adding seconds to an existing song. > and of course the song shouldn`t just be a collection of tones. at > least it should have SOME KIND of structure/melody. > sure you can make a track that consists of all songs you know. and you > can still clame that it`s a new combination of tones...but i was > talking about originality. > > > ° ° ° ° ° > °° ° °° °° ° > ° ° > ----- Original Message ----- > From: wires > To: idm > Sent: Monday, November 18, 2002 8:04 PM > Subject: Re: [idm] the end of all music? > > > Quoting ..chris?? (Chris-Griffin@Web.de): >> my brother once told me that some scientists/mathematicians calculated >> that in some years/centuries/milleniums every single possible >> combination of tones will be composed. has someone heard of this >> calculation as well? when do they say will every song be written? i >> can`t imagine what it`s like to live in a world where no new song will >> be released. strange... > > Well, it's nonsense. They probably argued that the set of all songs > is > countably infinite, but thats still infinite. Say you make a song > with > the duration of one second, they I can always make a different song, > I > just make it one second longer. > > Arguably maybe there's far less melodies, however, it's going to be > an > awfull lot of them still... > > -- > http://defekt.nl/ > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org > For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org > >

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hmmmm. I think that happened a few years ago. ;) Peace, Chad Mossholder ** Twine ** ???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????. http://www.twinesound.com info@twinesound.com .??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? --"The original is unfaithful to the copy." Jorge Luis Borges

quoted 42 lines From: ..chris?? <Chris-Griffin@Web.de>

>From: ..chris?? <Chris-Griffin@Web.de> >To: "idm" <idm@hyperreal.org> >Subject: [idm] the end of all music? >Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 19:40:11 +0100 >MIME-Version: 1.0 >Received: from hyperreal.org ([209.237.226.90]) by mc2-f6.law16.hotmail.com >with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.5600); Mon, 18 Nov 2002 10:45:22 -0800 >Received: (qmail 88983 invoked by uid 1153); 18 Nov 2002 18:45:06 -0000 >Received: (qmail 88973 invoked from network); 18 Nov 2002 18:45:05 -0000 >Mailing-List: contact idm-help@hyperreal.org; run by ezmlm >Precedence: bulk >X-No-Archive: yes >list-help: <mailto:idm-help@hyperreal.org> >list-unsubscribe: <mailto:idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org> >list-post: <mailto:idm@hyperreal.org> >Delivered-To: mailing list idm@hyperreal.org >Message-ID: <000801c28f31$ee905100$83c010ac@unimuenster.de> >X-Priority: 3 >X-MSMail-Priority: Normal >X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 >X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 >Sender: Chris-Griffin@Web.de >X-Spam-Rating: taz3.hyperreal.org 1.6.2 0/1000/N >Return-Path: idm-return-58325-twine_sound=hotmail.com@hyperreal.org >X-OriginalArrivalTime: 18 Nov 2002 18:45:22.0137 (UTC) >FILETIME=[A652B490:01C28F32] > >my brother once told me that some scientists/mathematicians calculated that >in some years/centuries/milleniums every single possible combination of >tones will be composed. >has someone heard of this calculation as well? when do they say will every >song be written? >i can`t imagine what it`s like to live in a world where no new song will be >released. >strange... >hopefully i`m dead by then! ;) > > > > ? ? ? ? ? >?? ? ?? ?? ? >? ?

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If john cage and IDM have ever taught as anything is that music is not made of notes, but of sounds and silences... So the combinations are infinite as theorically you can creat an infinite amount of sounds and arrange them always in different orders...

quoted 78 lines From: "--{ TWINE }-- ." <twine_sound@hotmail.com>

>From: "--{ TWINE }-- ." <twine_sound@hotmail.com> >To: Chris-Griffin@Web.de, idm@hyperreal.org >Subject: Re: [idm] the end of all music? >Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 13:35:17 -0600 > >hmmmm. I think that happened a few years ago. > >;) > > > > >Peace, >Chad Mossholder >** Twine ** >???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????. >http://www.twinesound.com >info@twinesound.com >.??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? >--"The original is unfaithful to the copy." Jorge Luis Borges > > > > > >>From: ..chris?? <Chris-Griffin@Web.de> >>To: "idm" <idm@hyperreal.org> >>Subject: [idm] the end of all music? >>Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 19:40:11 +0100 >>MIME-Version: 1.0 >>Received: from hyperreal.org ([209.237.226.90]) by >>mc2-f6.law16.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.5600); Mon, 18 >>Nov 2002 10:45:22 -0800 >>Received: (qmail 88983 invoked by uid 1153); 18 Nov 2002 18:45:06 -0000 >>Received: (qmail 88973 invoked from network); 18 Nov 2002 18:45:05 -0000 >>Mailing-List: contact idm-help@hyperreal.org; run by ezmlm >>Precedence: bulk >>X-No-Archive: yes >>list-help: <mailto:idm-help@hyperreal.org> >>list-unsubscribe: <mailto:idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org> >>list-post: <mailto:idm@hyperreal.org> >>Delivered-To: mailing list idm@hyperreal.org >>Message-ID: <000801c28f31$ee905100$83c010ac@unimuenster.de> >>X-Priority: 3 >>X-MSMail-Priority: Normal >>X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 >>X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 >>Sender: Chris-Griffin@Web.de >>X-Spam-Rating: taz3.hyperreal.org 1.6.2 0/1000/N >>Return-Path: idm-return-58325-twine_sound=hotmail.com@hyperreal.org >>X-OriginalArrivalTime: 18 Nov 2002 18:45:22.0137 (UTC) >>FILETIME=[A652B490:01C28F32] >> >>my brother once told me that some scientists/mathematicians calculated >>that in some years/centuries/milleniums every single possible combination >>of tones will be composed. >>has someone heard of this calculation as well? when do they say will every >>song be written? >>i can`t imagine what it`s like to live in a world where no new song will >>be released. >>strange... >>hopefully i`m dead by then! ;) >> >> >> >> ? ? ? ? ? >>?? ? ?? ?? ? >>? ? > > >_________________________________________________________________ >Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. >http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail > > >--------------------------------------------------------------------- >To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org >For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

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if you are talking about tonalities in the traditional western sense, then yes all the melodies will one day be written, if not already. but considering that nearly all electronic listening music (idm, etc) is built alot of times on nuances in melody, the use of percusion as melody and additionally beats as intertwining which create implied rhythms within themselves......these factors alone assure us that even if it is a calculable number (and i wouldnt think it is) it would be an absurdly huge number, and of course as several people have mentioned "time" introduces an infinite number of possibilites. however even if you remove duration from the equation (although duration is often just as important) youre still left with a near infinite number of possibilites. also considering the fact that there are so many types of instruments, a song written on piano, will sound different played on a guitar, etc and on and on......... c ..chris°° wrote:

quoted 39 lines <<Say you make a song with

> <<Say you make a song with > the duration of one second, they I can always make a different song, I > just make it one second longer.>> > > of course i was talking about DIFFERENT songs and not about the limitation of adding seconds to an existing song. > and of course the song shouldn`t just be a collection of tones. at least it should have SOME KIND of structure/melody. > sure you can make a track that consists of all songs you know. and you can still clame that it`s a new combination of tones...but i was talking about originality. > > ° ° ° ° ° > °° ° °° °° ° > ° ° > ----- Original Message ----- > From: wires > To: idm > Sent: Monday, November 18, 2002 8:04 PM > Subject: Re: [idm] the end of all music? > > Quoting ..chris?? (Chris-Griffin@Web.de): > > my brother once told me that some scientists/mathematicians calculated > > that in some years/centuries/milleniums every single possible > > combination of tones will be composed. has someone heard of this > > calculation as well? when do they say will every song be written? i > > can`t imagine what it`s like to live in a world where no new song will > > be released. strange... > > Well, it's nonsense. They probably argued that the set of all songs is > countably infinite, but thats still infinite. Say you make a song with > the duration of one second, they I can always make a different song, I > just make it one second longer. > > Arguably maybe there's far less melodies, however, it's going to be an > awfull lot of them still... > > -- > http://defekt.nl/ > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org > For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

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A friend and I were talking, several years back, about the sense that many people end up liking things their parents actively disliked -- to the point of inventing new types of music their parents rarely consider music in the first place, from bebop to rock'n'roll to rap to "glitch." Considering this friend and I both listen to a broad range of music, we wondered what might come around in the future that we wouldn't like but their our (hypoetherical) kids would like. What would such a new genre sound like? The scariest thing we could come up with is that our kids, and their generation, simply wouldn't be interested in music at all. Marc - - - Marc Weidenbaum www.disquiet.com ------------------------------------------------ On Mon, 18 Nov 2002 14:50:38 -0500, "A. C." <iroel85@hotmail.com> wrote:

quoted 8 lines If john cage and IDM have ever taught as anything is that

> > If john cage and IDM have ever taught as anything is that > music is not made > of notes, but of sounds and silences... > So the combinations are infinite as theorically you > can create an infinite > amount of sounds and arrange them always in different orders... >

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quoted 8 lines Considering this friend and I both listen to a broad range of music,

>Considering this friend and I both listen to a broad range of music, >we wondered what might come around in the future that we wouldn't >like but their our (hypoetherical) kids would like. What would such >a new genre sound like? > >The scariest thing we could come up with is that our kids, and their >generation, simply wouldn't be interested in music at all. >

There are also plenty of kids who grow up and really like the music their parents like. Often that is because their parents have good taste, but a lot of times it's because neither do :) I hope you're not looking for a real answer, btw. Cos anything we can imagine would be something we're inventing (or have invented), not something from the actual future... derek -- eggytoast.com -------------- commerce soon: eggtastic.com --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

This is not exactly true....my parents enjoy very much the music I listen to... Anyway if what you say is true, the lack of interest in music will be only for one generation..

quoted 40 lines From: marc@disquiet.com

>From: marc@disquiet.com >To: idm@hyperreal.org >Subject: Re: [idm] the end of all music? >Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 14:11:10 -0600 > >A friend and I were talking, several years back, about the sense that many >people end up liking things their parents actively disliked -- to the point >of inventing new types of music their parents rarely consider music in the >first place, from bebop to rock'n'roll to rap to "glitch." > >Considering this friend and I both listen to a broad range of music, we >wondered what might come around in the future that we wouldn't like but >their our (hypoetherical) kids would like. What would such a new genre >sound like? > >The scariest thing we could come up with is that our kids, and their >generation, simply wouldn't be interested in music at all. > >Marc > > - - - >Marc Weidenbaum >www.disquiet.com > > >------------------------------------------------ >On Mon, 18 Nov 2002 14:50:38 -0500, "A. C." <iroel85@hotmail.com> wrote: > > > > > If john cage and IDM have ever taught as anything is that > > music is not made > > of notes, but of sounds and silences... > > So the combinations are infinite as theorically you > > can create an infinite > > amount of sounds and arrange them always in different orders... > > > >--------------------------------------------------------------------- >To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org >For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

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In a word, ditto. Unless one is opposed entirely to generative music (for reaons moral, philosophical, aesthetic, kneejerk or other -- that is, unless one rejects programming as a form of musical composition), then it's quite clear that an algorithmic music could be programmed to act forever. Not simply by producing loops, but by producing variations on themes as a result of input from outside sources (the weather, the DNA of newborn children, the tone of the vocalist in whatever happens to be the No. 1 single on the Billboard chart at a given moment). Now, this isn't necessrily going to be "good" music, whatever that is. "Bad" generative infinite music will be the aural equivalent of the nanotech nightmare of "grey goo." Marc - - - Marc Weidenbaum marc@disquiet.com ------------------------------------------------ On Mon, 18 Nov 2002 15:31:27 -0500, EggyToast <eggy@eggytoast.com> wrote:

quoted 17 lines will anyone ever write an infinitely long piece?

> >will anyone ever write an infinitely long piece? > > > >no. > > > >anyone wanna argue that? > > Sure, why not. We're already to the point where people are writing > music using mathematics. Classically speaking, there was Iannis > Xenakis, and in modern times there are numerous "algorithmically > based" tracks out there. What's to stop someone from creating a song > based on irrational numbers, such as pi, and saying 'this can be > performed forever." > > or are you saying that no one will ever record or perform such a > piece? Cos the writing is the easy part! > > derek

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quoted 22 lines On Monday, November 18, 2002, at 03:31 PM, EggyToast wrote:

>On Monday, November 18, 2002, at 03:31 PM, EggyToast wrote: > >>> >>> will anyone ever write an infinitely long piece? >>> >>> no. >>> >>> anyone wanna argue that? >> >> Sure, why not. We're already to the point where people are >>writing music using mathematics. Classically speaking, there was >>Iannis Xenakis, and in modern times there are numerous >>"algorithmically based" tracks out there. What's to stop someone >>from creating a song based on irrational numbers, such as pi, and >>saying 'this can be performed forever." > >argh, algorithmic programming just screwed everything i said up. >you can figure out an infinite string of numbers without repetition >via algorithm, i think. >i dont think you can prove it though, which would make it a >theoretically infinite string of numbers? blah. the whole concept >of infinity sucks, we should do away with it.

I'm sure physicists and mathematicians would give you the nobel prize for math and physics for a few years straight if you could figure out a way to get rid of infinity :)

quoted 7 lines or are you saying that no one will ever record or perform such a

> >> or are you saying that no one will ever record or perform such a >>piece? Cos the writing is the easy part! > >is it? give me the algorithm for figuring out any set integer in pi >without using google. >like, i want to know the 1,423,294th number of pi.

I'm not saying *I* could do it, nor that it's easy to set up to solve specific problems. Just that it's easy to write something that could go on forever without repeating. I mean, you could do it as easy as "here's a 16 note sequence played on every quarter note. After you've played the 16th note, start over at the 2nd note. That is the new first note. The new 16th note is determined by the current second divided by 5" (5 because 60/5=12, 12 note scale etc.). So even slight repetition with random elements added would create an entirely new sequence that could conceivably be played "until the end of time" :D derek -- eggytoast.com -------------- commerce soon: eggtastic.com --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

On Monday, November 18, 2002, at 04:03 PM, EggyToast wrote:

quoted 4 lines I'm sure physicists and mathematicians would give you the nobel prize

> > I'm sure physicists and mathematicians would give you the nobel prize > for math and physics for a few years straight if you could figure out > a way to get rid of infinity :)

trolling time! prove infinity. disprove the existence of god. now, disprove infinity, and prove the existence of god. i dont want a nobel prize, just some toblerone.

quoted 10 lines I'm not saying *I* could do it, nor that it's easy to set up to solve

> I'm not saying *I* could do it, nor that it's easy to set up to solve > specific problems. Just that it's easy to write something that could > go on forever without repeating. I mean, you could do it as easy as > "here's a 16 note sequence played on every quarter note. After you've > played the 16th note, start over at the 2nd note. That is the new > first note. The new 16th note is determined by the current second > divided by 5" (5 because 60/5=12, 12 note scale etc.). So even > slight repetition with random elements added would create an entirely > new sequence that could conceivably be played "until the end of time" > :D

this brings melody into question though, which i think is a base of the argument. arguing semantics sucks, but it sure does pass the time. heh, i think im done with this thread, unless someone decides to respond to the god vs infinity thing, and i sure hope those people dont read this far down. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

At 04:19 PM 11/18/2002 -0500, you wrote:

quoted 10 lines On Monday, November 18, 2002, at 04:03 PM, EggyToast wrote:

>On Monday, November 18, 2002, at 04:03 PM, EggyToast wrote: >> >>I'm sure physicists and mathematicians would give you the nobel prize for >>math and physics for a few years straight if you could figure out a way >>to get rid of infinity :) > >trolling time! > >prove infinity. disprove the existence of god. >now, disprove infinity, and prove the existence of god.

See, the pesky thing about infinity (and gravity and the like) is that it doesn't really care whether we prove it or not. It's still there. :D God on the other hand, well, I'm an atheist and I'll leave it at that :)

quoted 1 line i dont want a nobel prize, just some toblerone.

>i dont want a nobel prize, just some toblerone.

I've only had one toblerone in my life, and although it was good, it tasted almost *too* rich. Of course, that was a few years ago and I could've gotten a yucky white chocolate one, so I should probably give them another try. Too bad about the price... Regardless, toblerones are a bit easier to find than nobel prizes (perhaps to good effects)

quoted 3 lines heh, i think im done with this thread, unless someone decides to respond

>heh, i think im done with this thread, unless someone decides to respond >to the god vs infinity thing, and i sure hope those people dont read this >far down.

What about those of us with huge resolution desktops? >:) derek --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

There was for many years at the following URL http://www.cecm.sfu.ca/pi/pi.html a simple Java script that would "play" Pi one note at a time. You could listen to the integers read, one at a time, in a number of languages. Or, you could set the numbers to various tones (including a those of a push-button phone). I don't know if the script is there any longer (the library computer I'm on at the moment appears not to have Java installed). So, this is a rudimentary (but functional and interesting) example of a "composition" that uses Pi to produce music. Now, this Java script eventually would end, after however many thousand digits, but the problem isn't with generating the digits in Pi, because that is a simply formulation. I think the Java composition ended, in this particular case, just for memory and bandwidth concerns. I found it emminently listenable -- it made good background music, especially with drone CD playing simultaneously, and I kept thinking that maybe I'd hear a pattern. Marc - - - Marc Weidenbaum marc@disquiet.com ------------------------------------------------ On Mon, 18 Nov 2002 16:03:04 -0500, EggyToast <eggy@eggytoast.com> wrote:

quoted 16 lines is it? give me the algorithm for figuring out any set integer in pi

> >is it? give me the algorithm for figuring out any set integer in pi > >without using google. > >like, i want to know the 1,423,294th number of pi. > > I'm not saying *I* could do it, nor that it's easy to set up to solve > specific problems. Just that it's easy to write something that could > go on forever without repeating. I mean, you could do it as easy as > "here's a 16 note sequence played on every quarter note. After > you've played the 16th note, start over at the 2nd note. That is the > new first note. The new 16th note is determined by the current > second divided by 5" (5 because 60/5=12, 12 note scale etc.). So > even slight repetition with random elements added would create an > entirely new sequence that could conceivably be played "until the end > of time" :D > > derek

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quoted 20 lines From: ..chris?? <Chris-Griffin@Web.de>

>From: ..chris?? <Chris-Griffin@Web.de> >To: "idm" <idm@hyperreal.org> >Subject: [idm] the end of all music? >Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 19:40:11 +0100 > >my brother once told me that some scientists/mathematicians calculated that >in some years/centuries/milleniums every single possible combination of >tones will be composed. >has someone heard of this calculation as well? when do they say will every >song be written? >i can`t imagine what it`s like to live in a world where no new song will be >released. >strange... >hopefully i`m dead by then! ;) > > > > ? ? ? ? ? >?? ? ?? ?? ? >? ?

It's mathematically impossible to exhaust melodies as we've probably got alot more scales to tackle. Music is fundamentally a type of mathematics just look at the work classical composers did to convert the golden ratio into song structure. There will be more notes as more tunings are found. The computerization of music has made available new time signatures and new bpm values. The playing feild continues to change so how could the players run out of options. Peace Pat Bastard _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

At 01:26 PM 11/18/2002 -0800, you wrote:

quoted 9 lines Okay... let's say we had 88-key grand piano and were just limited in an

>Okay... let's say we had 88-key grand piano and were just limited in an >88 note sequence. The possible combinations would amount to roughly > >1.3e+171 >1.3x10^171 > >or 13 with 170 '0's after it. > >Now drop the 88 note limitation... "the end of all music" -- not quite.

Yeah, good example with easy maths. It's really just a matter of what you want to limit yourself to, and as soon as you limit yourself, of COURSE you'll be dealing with finite amounts. That's how limitations work. It's when pesky things like infinity and other people's opinions get in the way that muck it all up :D I suppose there is an argument to be made about what constitutes a melody or not, although the original argument was just tones and as has been posted recently, we've already discarded tones of tone combinations simply by developing tuning systems and standardized scales (major/minor chords, not to mention the circle fifths). But even within those realms, though, you could limit infinity to a set of only 3 major notes from a chord that would sound good and still end up with a non-repeating sequence that would continue on to infinity. Unless, of course, your idea of non-repeating is "no two similar notes in sequence," but then we're back to what defines a melody :) And don't even let me bring up atonal music... whoops! derek --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

fie. silly IDMer. a c is not a c if it.s played with a different inversion ,different texture ,with different mic placement ,with a different group of musicians ,with drum machines or live drums backing it ,the variations are literally infinite ,and those things are chosen by the artist(s) who write the song. the way those things are chosen is by filtering the base conception of musical notes and chords or melodies through the lens of your experiences ,for instance even if i write a standard I-IV-V chord progression and sing something over it ,whether or not i choose to make it a country song ,electronic song ,danceable ,freeform ,folk music ,rap rock or some hybrid of all of the above makes it an utterly different song from other songs that use the same chord progression. music is infinite in its choices ,and only a narrowmind would see it otherwise. .d: --- Brett Dietsch <elph@lawngnome.org> wrote:

quoted 55 lines On Monday, November 18, 2002, at 03:09 PM, deadend

> > On Monday, November 18, 2002, at 03:09 PM, deadend > SYNTHETIC wrote: > > > i think it.s perfect that everyone responds to > this > > thread with logicmath and with equations (infinity > > plus one type stuff) ,whereas the real reason of > > course that there will not be a time when every > song > > has been written is because HUMANBEINGS make songs > > ,not computers. humanbeings don.t fit into > equations > > ,natch. and thus even though i might write a song > with > > the same chords in the same order as yours ,it.ll > > always be different because of the filter of my > > experiences that the chords have to move through > to be > > written. and so all the textures ,framing ,rythyms > > ,melodies etc. are all mine and mine alone and > mean > > something to me which is different than other > people. > > so music is safe and sound as long as we are alive > as > > a species...(knock wood). > > .d: > > the only person percieving your experience and its > influence on your > progression is you. to the rest of the world, a c > is still a c. to > say "but my chord progression MEANS something > different than his" is > silly if its the same progression. > > but. > > extending the length of non-looping chord > progression, which can be > infinitely extended, would keep something from being > replicated. time > is an issue, as it allows more variance. > the minute something loops, it ends. playing a 4 > measure piece > infinitely does not make it an infinitely long > piece. > > will anyone ever write an infinitely long piece? > > no. > > anyone wanna argue that? >

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At 04:42 PM 11/18/2002 -0600, you wrote:

quoted 12 lines See, the pesky thing about infinity (and gravity and the like) is that it

> > > > > > See, the pesky thing about infinity (and gravity and the like) is that it > > doesn't really care whether we prove it or not. It's still there. :D God > > on the other hand, well, I'm an atheist and I'll leave it at that :) > > > >it could be said that god is equally there and doesnt care whether we prove it >or not. >however an atheist claims proof of the non existence of god..........but that >is logically impossible, you cant affirm a negative. at the very best anyone >can say is that i choose to believe, disbelieve, or remain as neutral.

That's only if you interpret atheism as a theology. Theology by its very nature assumes that there is some supernatural force. Atheism states that the universe exists as it does in the natural realm. That precludes the existence of a supernatural force or forces (literally, anything "above nature"). Hence, no god or gods. Atheists don't say "There is no god, therefore the rest is true." Don't get me started on how many fallacies that statement has :) derek p.s. is casino vs. japan any good? i like boards of canada and marumari... --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

quoted 1 line p.s. is casino vs. japan any good? i like boards of canada and

> p.s. is casino vs. japan any good? i like boards of canada and

marumari... If you like those artists most likely you'll like casino vs. japan's latest at the very least. Beautiful and downtempo, and in the same vein. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

one word: Microtones. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

Tonality is only one aspect of musical composition, especially here in idm land :-) Every combination of timbre, structural variation, lyric, etc, will take much, much longer to come to pass. -----Original Message----- From: ..chris°° [mailto:Chris-Griffin@Web.de] my brother once told me that some scientists/mathematicians calculated that in some years/centuries/milleniums every single possible combination of tones will be composed. has someone heard of this calculation as well? when do they say will every song be written? i can`t imagine what it`s like to live in a world where no new song will be released. strange... hopefully i`m dead by then! ;) ° ° ° ° ° °° ° °° °° ° ° °

well even if all possible note combinations were made, there could always be 'cover' versions using different instruments, which can often sound like something new, like say, 'I care because you do' re-done using kazoos and finger snaps. i'm not too worried. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

Do I have to transcribe it to sheet music? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brett Dietsch" <elph@lawngnome.org> To: "deadend SYNTHETIC" <deadendsynthetic@yahoo.com> Cc: "idm list" <idm@hyperreal.org> Sent: Monday, November 18, 2002 2:25 PM Subject: Re: [idm] the end of all music?

quoted 47 lines On Monday, November 18, 2002, at 03:09 PM, deadend SYNTHETIC wrote:

> > On Monday, November 18, 2002, at 03:09 PM, deadend SYNTHETIC wrote: > > > i think it.s perfect that everyone responds to this > > thread with logicmath and with equations (infinity > > plus one type stuff) ,whereas the real reason of > > course that there will not be a time when every song > > has been written is because HUMANBEINGS make songs > > ,not computers. humanbeings don.t fit into equations > > ,natch. and thus even though i might write a song with > > the same chords in the same order as yours ,it.ll > > always be different because of the filter of my > > experiences that the chords have to move through to be > > written. and so all the textures ,framing ,rythyms > > ,melodies etc. are all mine and mine alone and mean > > something to me which is different than other people. > > so music is safe and sound as long as we are alive as > > a species...(knock wood). > > .d: > > > the only person percieving your experience and its influence on your > progression is you. to the rest of the world, a c is still a c. to > say "but my chord progression MEANS something different than his" is > silly if its the same progression. > > but. > > extending the length of non-looping chord progression, which can be > infinitely extended, would keep something from being replicated. time > is an issue, as it allows more variance. > the minute something loops, it ends. playing a 4 measure piece > infinitely does not make it an infinitely long piece. > > will anyone ever write an infinitely long piece? > > no. > > anyone wanna argue that? > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org > For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org > >

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quoted 5 lines will anyone ever write an infinitely long piece?

>will anyone ever write an infinitely long piece? > >no. > >anyone wanna argue that?

Sure I will, in a riddle/rhyme; the piece has already been written the players, already in place you may not know the writer (personally) but everywhere you see his face IM Scruggs Designer/Developer http://eye457.com _________________________________________________________________ STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

quoted 2 lines http:/

>http://www.cecm.sfu.ca/pi/pi.html >a simple Java script that would "play" Pi one note at a time.

i am so sampling this..... IM Scruggs Designer/Developer http://eye457.com _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org