IDM Mailing Archive

quoted 4 lines But seriously, studying other people's production

> But seriously, studying other people's production > technique too closely is a bit silly, you might end > up > sounding like a cheap copy.

I guess (as the original poster of this thread...) I should clarify, as well as add my own commentary to this. Exploring the techniques (by reading interviews, listening closely to records, communicating with the artist directly, etc..) of artists is one of the most important and useful ways of advancing your own creativity. By learning how someone else does something, and perhaps EVEN EMULATING them, forces you to learn and find techniques that you may have never discovered on your own. We all learn by example- and sometimes "copying" someone, or "covering" someone is a necessary learning experience. I am tired of hearing artists say that they don't listen to other music, or watch films, or read books because they may end up inadvertantly copying other artists. Hello? Get over yourself- learn to respect other people's work, and use it as foundation for your own explorations. I LOVE listening to other people's work...it gives me inspiration for my own work. I create music, visual effects, images...and I applaud and bow down to all of the other artists out there who are doing the same thing. I don't want to learn how someone else does something so that _I_ can do it...I use this knowledge as a map so that I can find myself in the same creative space that these artists were in when this wonderful work was made...so I can experience what they did, and perhaps catch something out of the corner of my eye that resonates with ME, and enhance my own work. Believe me- I don't want to spend three days building a soundalike Aphex Twin track- what's the point? I can put on a CD...but if I explore Richard's techniques, in the classic craftsman/apprentice style...I can find MY own style and expression... rant over. www.mp3.com/zeroperimeter =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Josh Kirschenbaum Editor / Compositor stun•gun (949) 833-7678 www.stunguntv.com jokir@technologist.com --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

quoted 6 lines Believe me- I don't want to spend three days building a soundalike Aphex

> Believe me- I don't want to spend three days building a soundalike Aphex > Twin track- what's the point? I can put on a CD...but if I explore > Richard's techniques, in the classic craftsman/apprentice style...I can > find MY own style and expression... > > rant over.

and who did Aphex study to learn his technique? i'm not necessarily disagreeing with you or anything, but seriously... with as many bedroom electronic musicians as there are out there(and god, there are so many!), the few that are going to stand out and rise above the rest are the guys that wade into uncharted waters -while- writing good songs. and most of the "amateur" idm stuff i've heard, sounds like really bad knock-offs of tri repetae era autechre. man, to make that kind of music sound good, you HAVE to be autechre. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

On Thu, 27 Jun 2002, ugly and mean wrote:

quoted 1 line and who did Aphex study to learn his technique?

> and who did Aphex study to learn his technique?

lots of people. believe me. art does not come out of nowhere - all works of art are influenced by what has gone before. truly we are standing on the shoulders of giants, and that is the only way it can be. this is not imitation, it's the process of creation. if you've ever heard any song, it has already influenced any music you may write - even if you choose to consciously write something that sounds completely different, it has still influenced you to do this. some people might like to think of the genius-composer with a direct line to god, his music beaming from outer space into his secret labratory were he lives sequestered from all outside influence. this is a nice, romantic notion, but it just isn't this way. there are no innovations that do not build on previous innovations. yeah, i'm tired of saying "hey, this sounds like autechre." that's ok. i don't have to listen to it, and plenty of other people might want to. and a few of these clones will take what they've learned from autechre and afx and go on to do something new, and that's enough peace of mind for me... j --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

quoted 2 lines On Thu, 27 Jun 2002, ugly and mean wrote:

> On Thu, 27 Jun 2002, ugly and mean wrote: > and who did Aphex study to learn his technique?

global goon. -j --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

On Thu, 27 Jun 2002, j snod wrote:

quoted 5 lines On Thu, 27 Jun 2002, ugly and mean wrote:

> > > On Thu, 27 Jun 2002, ugly and mean wrote: > > and who did Aphex study to learn his technique? > > global goon.

Where did you come up with this? AFX released Analogue Bubblebath in 1991, 5 years before Goon released anything. And when Goon came out, people thought it was AFX, not the other way around. I realise they were roommates, but I doubt RDJ studied under someone who really doesn't have near as much talent as himself. Hooray for Pokey! --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

--- "jacob z." <jsz@eds.org> wrote:

quoted 17 lines On Thu, 27 Jun 2002, ugly and mean wrote:

> > > On Thu, 27 Jun 2002, ugly and mean wrote: > > > and who did Aphex study to learn his technique? > > lots of people. believe me. art does not come out of nowhere - all > works > of art are influenced by what has gone before. truly we are standing on > the shoulders of giants, and that is the only way it can be. this is > not > imitation, it's the process of creation. if you've ever heard any song, > it has already influenced any music you may write - even if you choose > to > consciously write something that sounds completely different, it has > still > influenced you to do this.

I asked who Aphex Twin studied to learn his -technique-. I wasn't talking about musical influences. and it was a rhetorical question that could have used Squarepusher, Global Goon, Autechre, or Bel Biv Devoe in place of Aphex Twin. My point was that the truly great musicians, at least in this genre, that rise quickly to the top, are not people that spend all of their time trying to figure out how other musicians arranged their music, or what synths they use. When i was really into rock, and playing guitar and all that, i remember reading a lot of mail to guitar magazines from people that were just DYING to know what specific gear Randy Rhodes used to get his trademark sound. They got told the same thing: instead of trying to imitate your heroes, why don't you use trial and error to find the sound that suits your taste. Be original. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

Well, a big part of AFX's sound comes from his techincal tinckering, using software on the mac that can turn images into music and whatnot. His sound comes from using software that's very obscure and then combining that with homegrown software and hardware. He does have his own signature music melodies, but the real texture and sound come from lots of technical, nerdy fiddling. On Thu, 27 Jun 2002, ugly and mean wrote:

quoted 45 lines --- "jacob z." <jsz@eds.org> wrote:

> > --- "jacob z." <jsz@eds.org> wrote: > > > > > > On Thu, 27 Jun 2002, ugly and mean wrote: > > > > > and who did Aphex study to learn his technique? > > > > lots of people. believe me. art does not come out of nowhere - all > > works > > of art are influenced by what has gone before. truly we are standing on > > the shoulders of giants, and that is the only way it can be. this is > > not > > imitation, it's the process of creation. if you've ever heard any song, > > it has already influenced any music you may write - even if you choose > > to > > consciously write something that sounds completely different, it has > > still > > influenced you to do this. > > I asked who Aphex Twin studied to learn his -technique-. I wasn't talking > about musical influences. and it was a rhetorical question that could > have used Squarepusher, Global Goon, Autechre, or Bel Biv Devoe in place > of Aphex Twin. My point was that the truly great musicians, at least in > this genre, that rise quickly to the top, are not people that spend all of > their time trying to figure out how other musicians arranged their music, > or what synths they use. > > When i was really into rock, and playing guitar and all that, i remember > reading a lot of mail to guitar magazines from people that were just DYING > to know what specific gear Randy Rhodes used to get his trademark sound. > They got told the same thing: instead of trying to imitate your heroes, > why don't you use trial and error to find the sound that suits your taste. > Be original. > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup > http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org > For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org > >

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I understand what you're saying, but I don't understand your point. I already mentioned that it was a rhetorical question in the first place, and that Aphex could be interchangable with other IDM pioneers (such as Bel Biv Devoe), so I don't understand why you are trying to explain to me what methods he uses to make his music. --- Brian Redfern <bredfern@calarts.edu> wrote:

quoted 77 lines Well, a big part of AFX's sound comes from his techincal tinckering,

> Well, a big part of AFX's sound comes from his techincal tinckering, > using > software on the mac that can turn images into music and whatnot. His > sound > comes from using software that's very obscure and then combining that > with > homegrown software and hardware. He does have his own signature music > melodies, but the real texture and sound come from lots of technical, > nerdy fiddling. > > On Thu, 27 Jun 2002, ugly and mean wrote: > > > > > --- "jacob z." <jsz@eds.org> wrote: > > > > > > > > > On Thu, 27 Jun 2002, ugly and mean wrote: > > > > > > > and who did Aphex study to learn his technique? > > > > > > lots of people. believe me. art does not come out of nowhere - all > > > works > > > of art are influenced by what has gone before. truly we are > standing on > > > the shoulders of giants, and that is the only way it can be. this > is > > > not > > > imitation, it's the process of creation. if you've ever heard any > song, > > > it has already influenced any music you may write - even if you > choose > > > to > > > consciously write something that sounds completely different, it has > > > still > > > influenced you to do this. > > > > I asked who Aphex Twin studied to learn his -technique-. I wasn't > talking > > about musical influences. and it was a rhetorical question that could > > have used Squarepusher, Global Goon, Autechre, or Bel Biv Devoe in > place > > of Aphex Twin. My point was that the truly great musicians, at least > in > > this genre, that rise quickly to the top, are not people that spend > all of > > their time trying to figure out how other musicians arranged their > music, > > or what synths they use. > > > > When i was really into rock, and playing guitar and all that, i > remember > > reading a lot of mail to guitar magazines from people that were just > DYING > > to know what specific gear Randy Rhodes used to get his trademark > sound. > > They got told the same thing: instead of trying to imitate your > heroes, > > why don't you use trial and error to find the sound that suits your > taste. > > Be original. > > > > __________________________________________________ > > Do You Yahoo!? > > Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup > > http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org > > For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org > > > > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org > For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org >

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I'd like to point out it's not all studying and influences and technique and practice. All that only gets you so far ... there is also a need for a certain factor known as "talent" which is the real reason mr ATwin and mrs ATechre are where they are reputation-wise. Which is not to say that talent cannot be learned. Some people are just born with it and they get a wicked head start on the rest of us. So whoever said RJames could not be educated by GGoon is not thinking in the proper frame of reference. Everybody has something to teach somebody else. on 6/27/02 6:04 PM, ugly and mean at ugly_and_mean@yahoo.com wrote:

quoted 44 lines --- "jacob z." <jsz@eds.org> wrote:

> > --- "jacob z." <jsz@eds.org> wrote: >> >> >> On Thu, 27 Jun 2002, ugly and mean wrote: >> >>> and who did Aphex study to learn his technique? >> >> lots of people. believe me. art does not come out of nowhere - all >> works >> of art are influenced by what has gone before. truly we are standing on >> the shoulders of giants, and that is the only way it can be. this is >> not >> imitation, it's the process of creation. if you've ever heard any song, >> it has already influenced any music you may write - even if you choose >> to >> consciously write something that sounds completely different, it has >> still >> influenced you to do this. > > I asked who Aphex Twin studied to learn his -technique-. I wasn't talking > about musical influences. and it was a rhetorical question that could > have used Squarepusher, Global Goon, Autechre, or Bel Biv Devoe in place > of Aphex Twin. My point was that the truly great musicians, at least in > this genre, that rise quickly to the top, are not people that spend all of > their time trying to figure out how other musicians arranged their music, > or what synths they use. > > When i was really into rock, and playing guitar and all that, i remember > reading a lot of mail to guitar magazines from people that were just DYING > to know what specific gear Randy Rhodes used to get his trademark sound. > They got told the same thing: instead of trying to imitate your heroes, > why don't you use trial and error to find the sound that suits your taste. > Be original. > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup > http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org > For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org >

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an obvious, but interesting, point to ad to this discussion is the idea that if you want to do something unlike anything before, you have to know what has gone before. if Aphex is going to create the 'next step' my man better damn well know what he is stepping beyond. by being learned in the past, he can clearly see what is missing, and what needs to be done, even the 'how' and 'why' come to light after much deliberation i'm sure. ... i very much enjoy the idea of a sound never heard before and what that does to expand the listener's understanding of limitations in general (i believe this is largely what the TRUE psychodelic musical movement was based on). -old man nat. ps. i'm thinking of picking up at the shop... -Daedelus:Invention -Mokira: Plee -Neina: Subconscious -SND: Tender Love -Bogdan: Samuri Math they all seem very strong to me, any opinions?

quoted 37 lines From: "jacob z." <jsz@eds.org>

>From: "jacob z." <jsz@eds.org> >To: idm@hyperreal.org >Subject: Re: [idm] RE:originality in composition >Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 12:18:13 -0700 (PDT) > > > >On Thu, 27 Jun 2002, ugly and mean wrote: > > > and who did Aphex study to learn his technique? > >lots of people. believe me. art does not come out of nowhere - all works >of art are influenced by what has gone before. truly we are standing on >the shoulders of giants, and that is the only way it can be. this is not >imitation, it's the process of creation. if you've ever heard any song, >it has already influenced any music you may write - even if you choose to >consciously write something that sounds completely different, it has still >influenced you to do this. > >some people might like to think of the genius-composer with a direct line >to god, his music beaming from outer space into his secret labratory were >he lives sequestered from all outside influence. this is a nice, romantic >notion, but it just isn't this way. there are no innovations that do not >build on previous innovations. > >yeah, i'm tired of saying "hey, this sounds like autechre." that's ok. i >don't have to listen to it, and plenty of other people might want to. and >a few of these clones will take what they've learned from autechre and afx >and go on to do something new, and that's enough peace of mind for me... > >j > > >--------------------------------------------------------------------- >To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org >For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org >

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quoted 2 lines if you want to do something unlike anything before, you have to know

>if you want to do something unlike anything before, you have to know >what has gone before

This is an old argument and I guess a decent one, but the flip side is true also. The only example I know of is the extremely non-IDM career of Eddie Van Halen. He started out playing piano drums, but when he moved to guitar he didn't consider that you weren't supposed to use both hands on the fretboard (like a piano), so he did. And in doing so revolutionized rock guitar playing. So how does this relate to electronic music? Well, I'm not sure. It seems that all or most of the rules of traditional pop music have already been broken. Now it's up to somebody to further evolution and break all the rules that are left. Then again, didn't Cage or Schoenburg already do that? Now on: Fanny- Fear and Loathing for Dummies (definitely for fans of Venetian Snares)

"nat hawks" <natbot@hotmail.com> writes:

quoted 13 lines an obvious, but interesting, point to ad to this discussion is the idea that

> an obvious, but interesting, point to ad to this discussion is the idea that > if you want to do something unlike anything before, you have to know what > has gone before. if Aphex is going to create the 'next step' my man better > damn well know what he is stepping beyond. by being learned in the past, he > can clearly see what is missing, and what needs to be done, even the 'how' > and 'why' come to light after much deliberation i'm sure. > > ... i very much enjoy the idea of a sound never heard before and what that > does to expand the listener's understanding of limitations in general (i > believe this is largely what the TRUE psychodelic musical movement was based > on). > > -old man nat.

I hate having to rehash this fray again (check the archives for my fucking genius essays on the topic 2 years ago *wink*) but I just want to say Aphex Twin is not the end-all of creative force. He has admitted freely about being influenced by both Luke Vibert and Squarepusher. You can also tell he is influenced by everybody from Eno to Raymond Scott to Philip Glass. But anyway, nobody is completely free of influence. Influence and emulation are good things. Pure biting of another person's style isn't even a bad thing. It's not very creative but it is a great learning tool, as somebody pointed out earlier in the thread. I never would have learned how to write beats if i didn't sit down and analyze the fuck out of every record I ever bought. The key is to take what you learn from others and apply your own ideas to improve on techniques. Josh -- -- String Theory -- http://www.enteract.com/~yoshi/index.cgi -- String Theory's Anhedonia CD/LP available at finer music stores worldwide --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

absolutely. a good friend of mine recently gained the ability to write ass-walloping drum n' bass. i was talking with him about how he did it, and he says he's been immersing himself in the genre, listening to and spinning so much jungle, that when he sits down to write it, he just knows what has to happen. he can hear in his head what would be the appropriately idiomatic thing to do would be at any given time. he's writing genre music, consicously - it sounds good and it doesn't sound particularly like any of the junglists he's emulating. this is how you learn. i studied compostion in college and the first thing we did in those classes was analyze existing compositions to find out how they were made. if you want to write a phat beat, you have to learn somehow what is phat - where phat came from so you can define tomorrow's phat yourself. j On 27 Jun 2002, String Theory wrote:

quoted 20 lines But anyway, nobody is completely free of influence. Influence and

> But anyway, nobody is completely free of influence. Influence and > emulation are good things. Pure biting of another person's style > isn't even a bad thing. It's not very creative but it is a great > learning tool, as somebody pointed out earlier in the thread. I never > would have learned how to write beats if i didn't sit down and analyze > the fuck out of every record I ever bought. The key is to take what > you learn from others and apply your own ideas to improve on > techniques. > > Josh > > -- > -- String Theory > -- http://www.enteract.com/~yoshi/index.cgi > -- String Theory's Anhedonia CD/LP available at finer music stores worldwide > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org > For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org >

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Maybe the originality in composition thread is played out but... [snip]

quoted 3 lines But seriously, studying other people's production

> But seriously, studying other people's production > technique too closely is a bit silly, you might end > up sounding like a cheap copy.

[snip]

quoted 1 line and who did Aphex study to learn his technique?

> and who did Aphex study to learn his technique?

[start rant] All interactions with machines involve a certain amount of prerequisite technique learning. Aphex did invent some new musical techniques. He didn't invent rhythm, electronic engineering, or synthesis. He learned these techniques somewhere and it appears that he studied these techniques that others invented very closely. Definitely there is a point where learning ends and innovation (or communication) begins, but accumulating techniques is part of innovation. Copying is a very efficient way of learning techniques. How did Bach arrive at his kick ass innovative Baroque techniques? He literally hand copied the works of the masters that had come before him. How do terrorists learn those techniques in Afghanistan? They hand copy instructional manuals issued by the US government in the early eighties. How do bedroom producer learn how to make electronic music? By listening to Square Pusher's beats and trying to figure out how the f*@k he does it. All of these acts of copying can yield unexpected results. Who would have expected that listening to Weather Report and Jungle would have fused in to Drill n' Bass? I think that the desire to make novel music for novelty sake is more of a setback than copying. There are a lot of techniques that are only half developed right now because the push is to find "the next big thing". If the drive of the music is novelty the result is usually crap or easily forgotten. My main point is that examining existing techniques is a quick way to learn the language. The fact that there is so much bad electronica available isn't because people are "copying other peoples techniques"; It's because there are a lot of people producing electronic music that are fairly inexperienced and we live in a time that distribution is relatively easy (in comparison to previous decades). Oh... unless your talking about the kind of copying that Madonna does. That's commercial plagiarism. [end rant] Chrz, Noah Listen Labs www.listenlabs.com --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

"Mathematical symbols exclude metaphor in order to demonstrate metaphoric propositions without adding an unwonted flavor of their own. Ideally, math is a non-metaphoric language, though in a vanilla world everything must of necessity retain some trace of vanilla." --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

--- Bryan Finoki <finoki@lucasarts.com> wrote:

quoted 4 lines "Mathematical symbols exclude metaphor in order to

> "Mathematical symbols exclude metaphor in order to > demonstrate metaphoric > propositions without adding an unwonted flavor of > their own."

What did the X axis say to the Y axis? "They're all plotting against me!!" -skkatter __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org