IDM Mailing Archive

quoted 3 lines Not to mention that hip hop is like updated jazz in a way--jazz >> artists often use

>> Not to mention that hip hop is like updated jazz in a way--jazz >> artists often used popular songs as the basis for >> reinterpretation and new arrangement (kind of like sampling >> before the dj).

quoted 2 lines Jazz bares almost no resemblance to hiphop... Jazz is fundamentally

>Jazz bares almost no resemblance to hiphop... Jazz is fundamentally >melodic

I would argue that jazz is fundamentally rhythmic. Based on that, and its sociological roots, it bears quite a bit of resemblance. But I think I know what you mean - One would hardly mistake Coleman Hawkins' "Body and Soul" for Snoop Dogg's "Gin and Juice". For me, the similarities are apparent immediately below the surface. (I have much more on my mind about this, but I'm at work now... must go... maybe elaborate later...) Matt --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

mattu@mindspring.com writes:

quoted 1 line I would argue that jazz is fundamentally rhythmic.

>I would argue that jazz is fundamentally rhythmic.

what about freeform jazz? this is more similar to electronic stuff i think. they are all interconnected.. look at what jurassic five has been doin... --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

Erica A. Mitchell said...

quoted 3 lines what about freeform jazz? this is more similar to electronic

> what about freeform jazz? this is more similar to electronic > stuff i think. > they are all interconnected.. look at what jurassic five has been doin...

free-jazz has practicaly no links to most electronic stuff. it's mainly based on a few soloists who pick a bunch of chords and fuck around up and down the scale for a half hour. John Coletrane & Ornette Coleman are the probably the best example of this. can be quite trying if you're not into jazz to begin with, but give it some time and it can be quite rewarding.... --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

Although it's safe to say that the majority of mid/late-period Sun Ra output was very closely associated with electronics as well as being firmly routed in free jazz. "Joyful Noise" video where he's just freaking out on his keyboard on that rooftop wearing that absurd blue wig and pearl necklace. That guy was on a whole other level of music. Alice Coltrane "Universal Conciousness" also has some good electronic/keyboard wig-outs although slightly more structured then some of Sun Ra's noise. One of my favourite things to do when in NY is to go to Two Boots restuarant where they have the Ornette Coleman "Free Jazz" CD on their jukebox. A mere 25 cents will make you the most hated person in the room as it's only 2 I.D's on the disc so either one gets you a 20 minute scronk fest. Jeff on 3/29/01 2:31 PM, skism at cazeone@earthling.net wrote:

quoted 21 lines Erica A. Mitchell said...

> > Erica A. Mitchell said... > >> what about freeform jazz? this is more similar to electronic >> stuff i think. >> they are all interconnected.. look at what jurassic five has been doin... > > free-jazz has practicaly no links to most electronic stuff. it's mainly > based on a few soloists who pick a bunch of chords and fuck around up and > down the scale for a half hour. John Coletrane & Ornette Coleman are the > probably the best example of this. can be quite trying if you're not > into jazz to begin with, but give it some time and it can be quite > rewarding.... > > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org > For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org >

--------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

On 29/03/01 14:59, Jeff/Ninja Tune said in living color:

quoted 4 lines One of my favourite things to do when in NY is to go to Two Boots restuarant

> One of my favourite things to do when in NY is to go to Two Boots restuarant > where they have the Ornette Coleman "Free Jazz" CD on their jukebox. A mere > 25 cents will make you the most hated person in the room as it's only 2 > I.D's on the disc so either one gets you a 20 minute scronk fest.

That's absolutely fantastic: now I know what to do the next time I go to NY. g. -- Guillaume Grenier - gollum@videotron.ca in space there is no north in space there is no south in space there is no east in space there is no west --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

(Sorry Jeff) More recently, I would add Isotope 217, Chicago Underground Duo and Evan Parker to the electronic/free jazz combo world. I was at the Two Boots in Brooklyn once a couple years ago - I'd recommend the Crawfish Pizza to anyone who hasn't tried it - bet it'd go well with the Double Quartet. Matt At 02:59 PM 3/29/01 -0500, you wrote:

quoted 48 lines Although it's safe to say that the majority of mid/late-period Sun Ra output

>Although it's safe to say that the majority of mid/late-period Sun Ra output >was very closely associated with electronics as well as being firmly routed >in free jazz. > >"Joyful Noise" video where he's just freaking out on his keyboard on that >rooftop wearing that absurd blue wig and pearl necklace. That guy was on a >whole other level of music. > >Alice Coltrane "Universal Conciousness" also has some good >electronic/keyboard wig-outs although slightly more structured then some of >Sun Ra's noise. > >One of my favourite things to do when in NY is to go to Two Boots restuarant >where they have the Ornette Coleman "Free Jazz" CD on their jukebox. A mere >25 cents will make you the most hated person in the room as it's only 2 >I.D's on the disc so either one gets you a 20 minute scronk fest. > >Jeff > > >on 3/29/01 2:31 PM, skism at cazeone@earthling.net wrote: > > > > > Erica A. Mitchell said... > > > >> what about freeform jazz? this is more similar to electronic > >> stuff i think. > >> they are all interconnected.. look at what jurassic five has been doin... > > > > free-jazz has practicaly no links to most electronic stuff. it's mainly > > based on a few soloists who pick a bunch of chords and fuck around up and > > down the scale for a half hour. John Coletrane & Ornette Coleman are the > > probably the best example of this. can be quite trying if you're not > > into jazz to begin with, but give it some time and it can be quite > > rewarding.... > > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org > > For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org > > > > >--------------------------------------------------------------------- >To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org >For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

--------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

quoted 2 lines More recently, I would add Isotope 217, Chicago Underground Duo and Evan

>More recently, I would add Isotope 217, Chicago Underground Duo and Evan >Parker to the electronic/free jazz combo world.

what about P'Taah "Compressed Light"... would you group it under this category?? --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

At 09:31 PM 3/29/01 +0200, you wrote:

quoted 3 lines free-jazz has practicaly no links to most electronic stuff. it's mainly

>free-jazz has practicaly no links to most electronic stuff. it's mainly >based on a few soloists who pick a bunch of chords and fuck around up and >down the scale for a half hour.

derrr... can't say I'd quite agree with that. Even in its simplest terms, free jazz is an attempt to move away from chords, scales and soloists. Questions of what's a well-developed idea vs the result of "fuck[ing] around" always go to a pointless, cliched debate. I won't if you won't.

quoted 2 lines John Coletrane & Ornette Coleman are the

>John Coletrane & Ornette Coleman are the >probably the best example of this.

Of free jazz? Ornette's a good starting point, but that's like saying "Kraftwerk's probably the best example of electronic music".

quoted 3 lines can be quite trying if you're not

>can be quite trying if you're not >into jazz to begin with, but give it some time and it can be quite >rewarding....

I would agree with this (accepting that not everyone likes free jazz). Matt --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

On Thu, 29 Mar 2001, skism wrote:

quoted 3 lines free-jazz has practicaly no links to most electronic stuff. it's mainly

> free-jazz has practicaly no links to most electronic stuff. it's mainly > based on a few soloists who pick a bunch of chords and fuck around up and > down the scale for a half hour. John Coletrane & Ornette Coleman are the

You mean Coltrane. The above is a pretty funny description of Trane's post-quartet stuff (though he tended to work more in modes) but doesn't really get to the meat of Ornette. But I digress. By the way, I object wholeheartedly to the inclusion in other e-mails of the likes of Evan Parker and Derek Bailey in the realm of "free jazz". What's "jazz" about their performances, beyond the "guy playing improvised music with a saxophone" definition that most people probably have? Then again, Pita is probably considered to be IDM. So fuck it, another boring thread about semantics. I also forgot to include the improvisational aspect of jazz as one of its fundamental qualities (bringing it, essentially, to "improvised music following a blues-derived structure"). Most IDM/electronica you could cite as being comparable to jazz is only "jazzy" because it uses jazz samples (like "Chomp Samba"). As opposed to the Detroit brethren (and their heirs) who can make something funky and soulful while using neither funk nor soul samples. Furthermore, there are little similarities between jazz and [I]DM at the song/piece level. That's not to say you can't give it the old college try. I do, however, think that DJs are the unheralded improvisors of the dancefloor. -rob --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

Matt said...

quoted 1 line I would argue that jazz is fundamentally rhythmic.

> I would argue that jazz is fundamentally rhythmic.

Considdering most african music is rhythmic, your sort of right. But I would considder jazz the fusion of the african and the classical(esqe) music the slaves were playing on the river boats. Whereas blues owes more to the fusion of the white folk music and the african stuff... --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

On Thu, 29 Mar 2001 mattu@mindspring.com wrote:

quoted 7 lines [someone else said]:

> [someone else said]: > > >Jazz bares almost no resemblance to hiphop... Jazz is fundamentally > >melodic > > I would argue that jazz is fundamentally rhythmic. Based on that, and > its sociological roots, it bears quite a bit of resemblance. But I

Rhythmically, African music differs in a fundamental way from western music traditions in that it uses a combination of patterns with different (and long) lengths and emphasis to create a complex rhythmic mesh that repeats itself over a longer period than four measures. I would say that jazz soloing and rapping are descended from this approach inasmuch as both involve subtle adjustments ahead/behind the beats in a western music "measure". This kind of replicates the rhythmic complexity of African drumming in an unnotable way. By the way, I imagine it would probably be difficult to rap over any rhythmic base that is intentionally unpredictable (unless you were very gifted). I would say that the most prominent characteristic of jazz are its contraints on improvisation, e.g. adherence to the chorus-based structure. Everything else is window dressing, IMO. Prior to the 60s, this structure was based on blues or popular songs (in a manner derived from the blues) and purely harmonic. However, Ornette Coleman's harmolodics blew the field wide open by substituting a different element in the structure, namely "melody." My non-musicologist ass likens this to the introduction of tone rows in serialism. By the way, I think the term IDM (like free jazz and punk) is less of a description of idiomatic tendencies than a set of common attitudes towards an established genre of music (e.g. experimentalism). I mean, what other similarities can you draw between post-electro Black Dog and the clipped house of Thomas Brinkmann? -rob --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

Just to add my 2 pesetos to this... I've been wondering lately... and thinking that I like the term IDM, because it seems to me (and I'm not all that well-versed in music history) that the great musics of the world all started out as dance music. It was only later that they became "intentionally and intelligently evolved" into music that you could kick back and just listen to alone. Gospel-->Ragtime-->Swing-->Jazz. House-->Techno-->IDM. I'm now getting really into jazz (by way of idm, mind you), especially people like Thelonius Monk, John Zorn and Chicago Underground Duo/Trio. I especially like ethnic jazz. There are some amazing recordings of 60s-70s Ethiopian funk/jazz out, which are among my favorites. Anyways... I'm getting into my own tastes now. If anyone has any must-have suggestions for intelli-jazz or ethnic jazz, please let me know. vzaem

quoted 52 lines -----Original Message-----

> -----Original Message----- > From: R. Lim [mailto:rlim@escape.com] > Sent: Friday, March 30, 2001 12:15 PM > To: idm@hyperreal.org > Subject: Re: [idm] What IDM sounds like > > > On Thu, 29 Mar 2001 mattu@mindspring.com wrote: > > > [someone else said]: > > > > >Jazz bares almost no resemblance to hiphop... Jazz is fundamentally > > >melodic > > > > I would argue that jazz is fundamentally rhythmic. Based on that, and > > its sociological roots, it bears quite a bit of resemblance. But I > > Rhythmically, African music differs in a fundamental way from western > music traditions in that it uses a combination of patterns with different > (and long) lengths and emphasis to create a complex rhythmic mesh that > repeats itself over a longer period than four measures. I would say that > jazz soloing and rapping are descended from this approach inasmuch as both > involve subtle adjustments ahead/behind the beats in a western music > "measure". This kind of replicates the rhythmic complexity of African > drumming in an unnotable way. By the way, I imagine it would probably be > difficult to rap over any rhythmic base that is intentionally > unpredictable (unless you were very gifted). > > I would say that the most prominent characteristic of jazz are its > contraints on improvisation, e.g. adherence to the chorus-based > structure. > Everything else is window dressing, IMO. Prior to the 60s, this structure > was based on blues or popular songs (in a manner derived from the blues) > and purely harmonic. However, Ornette Coleman's harmolodics blew the field > wide open by substituting a different element in the structure, namely > "melody." My non-musicologist ass likens this to the introduction of tone > rows in serialism. > > By the way, I think the term IDM (like free jazz and punk) is less of a > description of idiomatic tendencies than a set of common attitudes towards > an established genre of music (e.g. experimentalism). I mean, what other > similarities can you draw between post-electro Black Dog and the clipped > house of Thomas Brinkmann? > > -rob > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org > For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org > >

--------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

I would agree, a lot of electronic stuff like Microstoria, where it's more abracted - the structures of melody and rhythm are less traditional and obvious - share quite a bit with some free jazz. Especially with the European improvisers, like Peter Brotzmann or Derek Bailey or Mats Gustafsson - I think there's common values - such things as timbre are not taken for granted, for example. I don't know anything about Jurassic Five, but To Rococo Rot, Squarepusher, Flanger and Isotope 217 strike me as good examples of artists who are directly combining traditions of jazz and electronic music to good end. Matt At 02:10 PM 3/29/01 -0500, Erica A. Mitchell wrote:

quoted 4 lines mattu@mindspring.com writes:

>mattu@mindspring.com writes: > >I would argue that jazz is fundamentally rhythmic. >what about freeform jazz? this is more similar to electronic stuff i think. >they are all interconnected.. look at what jurassic five has been doin...

--------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org