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Maybe an Irish IDM artist will flirt a little with Irish music, and it might lead to interesting results, who knows? But then again, look at the Corrs - they've conquered the world with a load of pop/rock ballads cleverly disguised as Irish traditional music. I hardly think that's "regionally valid" or not "culturally weak" but by your criteria there's a danger that they could be interpreted as such.

quoted 1 line

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

good point. often the most earnest attempts at "representing region" while working with a foreign style produce the most nauseating results. particularly when one or the other "side" of your music (regional vs. foreign style) isn't what you're really interested in. on a related subject: prefuse 73 is good (i think), but there's no reason to worship. It's a pretty obvious response to "integrating idm/hip hop" (take the beat of hip-hop and replace sounds with oval-ish tones and ae-ish hi-hats, make the vocals all "skittery" and "chopped up" - preferably illegible to make it more radically different - etc), and certainly not revolutionary, particularly with the sounds he uses. but again, no diss intended. it's good stuff. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - Buy the things you want at great prices! http://auctions.yahoo.com/ --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

jon anderson wrote :

quoted 3 lines good point. often the most earnest attempts at

>good point. often the most earnest attempts at >"representing region" while working with a foreign >style produce the most nauseating results.

i'm glad you used the word 'represent'--remember that most hip-hoppers making music belong to some kind of CREW, be it cash money or wu-tang or nwa. i read once that the gescom 'crew' was spawned by booth/browne's hip-hop roots. idm is lonely bastard music, and laptop producer whores find it fashionable to be on as many labels as possible, in as many countries as they can. but honestly they can't REPRESENT adam piontek, before his post dissipated into total misunderstanding ("Face it man, you're trying to tell people to not be inventive"--absurd!), stressed that music is not a culture itself. no, the sounds aren't a culture, but the scene that grows around various artists/aesthetics then lifestyles DOES constitute a culture, and hip-hop IS a culture as well as a genre. n johnston is concerned about our little 'idm culture' (oxymoron? jk), and says that it does 'reflect the culture of technologised Western late-capitalist society'. of course there is SOME culture, some number of protocols (musical style, as well as lots of num3rals + punkktuat!on ////uz[e]d in.writing++++, etc.), but on the whole nothing binds us but musical taste. why ? probably because we are geographically seperated (the internet fools us). i don't know who any of you are ; i don't know if you are my friends or not. there is no idm cinema or theatre ; no identifiable idm recreational activities, no particular idm drugs (dex ? ha.) ; there are hardly even any idm nightclubs. hip-hop has all of these, and they define the culture. props to skism : 'Everyone knows the 4 pillars of hip-hop... emceeing, djing, breaking & graffiti'... what armchair charlie was stressing from the beginning is that an artist OUGHT to be aware of the cultural context he is pouring his creative efforts into. nobody would attempt compose in the manner of mozart (since he seems to be the most fucking popular example on this list next to afx) without learning a high level of music theory. and no ignorant techno rube can expect to walk into a hip-hop joint and expect to impress everybody with his untrained ability. it's been said a few times already, this idm attitude of 'let's chop up hip-hop and call it hip-hop' is bullocks. when hip-hoppers began sampling jazz, they didn't start calling their music jazz. the fact is it's hip-hop as seen through the DSP-eye, which sees all soundwaves in sixteenth-note sized chunks that it can rearrange in a random order over a gritty 4/4 beat. no one is safe from the ravenous DSP-beast... keep the children home tonight, they might find themselves REMIXED in the morning ! SAVE YOURSELVES. .af. ps; speaking of people overstepping their little cultures, i just got 'lily of the valley'--who the hell is jeswa ? some nice electroacoustic music, but how'd it get on an idm disc ? --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

of course, i could just not respond, but... ----- Original Message ----- From: "adam florin" <aeflo@brown.edu> To: <idm@hyperreal.org> Sent: Wednesday, February 21, 2001 5:55 PM Subject: [idm] Re: Scott Herren and ATL (who y'all rollin with)

quoted 5 lines adam piontek, before his post dissipated into total misunderstanding

> adam piontek, before his post dissipated into total misunderstanding > ("Face it man, you're trying to tell people to not be > inventive"--absurd!), stressed that music is not a culture itself. > no, the sounds aren't a culture, but the scene that grows around > various artists/aesthetics then lifestyles DOES constitute a

culture,

quoted 1 line and hip-hop IS a culture as well as a genre.

> and hip-hop IS a culture as well as a genre.

No, if a culture can grow around a musical style, than the musical style can be disconnected from the culture. Hence, there may be a hip-hop-related culture, but hip-hop itself is a musical style that can be appreciated on its own. Perhaps those who see themselves as part of the related culture feel that those who aren't a part of said culture are therefore somehow "missing" something, but if they're not native, they can never be a native, so what's the point? Perhaps before anyone ventures futher, however, we should agree on a definition of culture (many people assume they know what it means without realizing they never read a definition). Here's one I just looked up in the online Cambridge Dictionary: "the way of life, esp. the general customs and beliefs, of a particular group of people at a particular time" Given that, and I think it'll do for now, music is not a custom or a belief. It is a product of human endeavor. An endeavor (making music, listening to music, dancing to music) can be a custom, such that a style of music can be a *part* of a culture, and hence linked to it, but once invented, why do certain cultures have to have a stranglehold on how any style of music is used? They shouldn't. And this is what I meant by saying that someone was implying that people shouldn't be inventive: If you say that the culture to which a given style of music is linked has some sort of monopoly on that style of music, you're saying others should avoid touching it. However, when outsiders appropriate a style of music for their own uses/purposes/whatever, that's one of the main ways that music evolves! To say that any artist should also take on the culture associated with a style of music in addition to that style of music is ludicrous. I recognize the link between music and culture, but it's possible to sever that link and transplant the style. So music is not dependent on a culture. What about Senor Coconut? Now there's an instance where the original culture that spawned the styles he's appropriating would, I'm sure, be somewhat concerned at his version of the styles... If that makes any sense, which I suppose it doesn't.

quoted 2 lines n johnston is concerned about our little 'idm culture' (oxymoron?

> n johnston is concerned about our little 'idm culture' (oxymoron? > jk)

I know you said 'jk,' but I just want to point out for the record that believing one has no culture is a culture in itself. Americans as a whole (myself included at times) generally tend to think this way - that we don't have culture, we just consume the cultural artifacts of others. This itself is culture.

quoted 3 lines even any idm nightclubs. hip-hop has all of these, and they define

> even any idm nightclubs. hip-hop has all of these, and they define > the culture. props to skism : 'Everyone knows the 4 pillars of > hip-hop... emceeing, djing, breaking & graffiti'...

true, idm-ish music isn't associated with the same level of cultural cohesion with which hip-hop music is associated, but that doesn't invalidate or validate either style of music any more or less in my eyes (or ears, actually).

quoted 3 lines what armchair charlie was stressing from the beginning is that an

> what armchair charlie was stressing from the beginning is that an > artist OUGHT to be aware of the cultural context he is pouring his > creative efforts into. nobody would attempt compose in the manner

of

quoted 1 line mozart (since he seems to be the most fucking popular example on

> mozart (since he seems to be the most fucking popular example on

this

quoted 1 line list next to afx)

> list next to afx)

(that's why i chose him! why use someone new when Mozart will do!)

quoted 4 lines without learning a high level of music theory. and

>without learning a high level of music theory. and > no ignorant techno rube can expect to walk into a hip-hop joint and > expect to impress everybody with his untrained ability. it's been > said a few times already, this idm attitude of 'let's chop up

hip-hop

quoted 7 lines and call it hip-hop' is bullocks. when hip-hoppers began sampling

> and call it hip-hop' is bullocks. when hip-hoppers began sampling > jazz, they didn't start calling their music jazz. the fact is it's > hip-hop as seen through the DSP-eye, which sees all soundwaves in > sixteenth-note sized chunks that it can rearrange in a random order > over a gritty 4/4 beat. no one is safe from the ravenous > DSP-beast... keep the children home tonight, they might find > themselves REMIXED in the morning ! SAVE YOURSELVES.

All right, I agree with this, I think. I don't know for sure, so refresh my memory - who's been calling Prefuse 73 "hip-hop?" I think, for the millionth time, that a reference to hip-hop appeared in a Warp or Schematic press release. I don't think it even called it hip-hop; if I recall they said "rebuilding hip-hop" or some such nonsense. Perhaps its for lack of a term, huh? One could say that hip-hop or certain turn-tablists "rebuild" jazz. Like rebuilding a bridge - you break it down and use the components to build it again... Or maybe I'm just arguing now for the sake of arguing ;-) At the very least, if it's shameful to call it hip-hop, let's just call it what it is - IDM. After all, if some people think Philip Glass is IDM, why not an actual IDM producer's music being called IDM? Did people have such trouble with the hip-hop leanings of Funkstorung's Appetite For Destruction? I wasn't here then. -Adam --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org