IDM Mailing Archive

quoted 5 lines My hope is that some of the kids who see Keith-The-Clown on MTV will get

> My hope is that some of the kids who see Keith-The-Clown on MTV will get > into the music itself, and branch into more of the truly incredible, less > known stuff out there. I will never villify an act for making excellent > music known - after all, if nobody knows about it, what good is it? >

But its all about how they make themsleves known. If I have to paint my hair and pierce my face up to "make my music known", one should wonder how good my music is to begin with.

quoted 4 lines My hope is that some of the kids who see Keith-The-Clown on MTV will get

> My hope is that some of the kids who see Keith-The-Clown on MTV will get > into the music itself, and branch into more of the truly incredible, less > known stuff out there. I will never villify an act for making excellent > music known - after all, if nobody knows about it, what good is it?

I understand the sentiment, but I also disagree with it. This is exactly the same sentiment that I had back in '91 when Nirvana hit big, opening the floodgates for indie/punk/alternative rock to enter the mainstream. Just as you hope the Prodigy will lure kids into more adven- turous IDM sounds, I hoped that Nirvana would lure mainstream listeners into more underground punk/indie rock - by that, I mean bands like Unsane, Mudhoney, or Bikini Kill, on labels like Matador or Kill Rock Stars. I'm sure that did happen with a few people, but for the most part it didn't work like that. Here's what did happen instead: The major labels went on a feeding frenzy, snatching up every indie rock, punk, grunge and noise band they could snag, and a lot of the bands in the indie scene did indeed take the bait. Unfortunately for these bands, for the most part the majors had no clue as to how to market or promote them. A lot of them were subsequently dropped when they didn't sell, leaving their careers in ruins. In the meantime, the majors were also looking for Nirvana, Pearl Jam and Green Day clones. And they found them - Stone Temple Pilots, Silverchair, Bush, Everclear, and others, which replicated Cobain and Vedder's flannel shirts, loud punk chords, and Prozac-fueled songs about teen angst. As a result, the whole meaning of "alternative" got completely perverted. Where before it was about making exciting, adventurous rock, "alternative" was now associated with the superficial cliches Nirvana and Pearl Jam brought in, like flannel, long hair, grungy power chords, and self-pitying lyrics. Just because the general public liked Nirvana and Green Day, that didn't mean they had the initiative to go beyond the glossy MTV facade. It was the corporate Nirvana clones which ultimately became more successful than the indie bands snatched up by the majors. Bush, No Doubt and Silverchair went multiplatinum, while the ones with genuine indie roots - Sonic Youth, Mudhoney, Dinosaur Jr. - failed to see similar success. Indeed, most of the people who sang along to "Smells Like Teen Spirit" were no more open- minded after the dust settled than before Nirvana hit. Yeah, they liked Nirvana, Green Day and Offspring, but they also stuck to their classic rock, Hootie, Snoop Doggy Dogg, Sheryl Crow, and Marilyn Manson. The moral of this story is, don't kid yourself into thinking that just because a particular artist from a certain genre makes it big, that this one artist's success will translate over to the rest of the genre. I think that the people in the techno/rave/dance could learn some lessons from what happened to alternative rock in the early '90s. Now, as for Prodigy themselves, I don't think it's fair to say that they are to IDM was Nirvana was to alternative, for the simple reason that Prodigy are just not as big as Nirvana were. Look at the numbers - Nirvana sold 7 million copies of NEVERMIND, while Prodigy hasn't even hit 2-mil yet. And from my own observations, Prodigy just aren't taking the US public to the same extent Nirvana did - I don't see too many jocks, frat boys, yuppies, cheerleaders, preppies, rednecks or homeboys buying Prodigy CDs. I'd agree with "Invalid Opcode" that many of Prodigy's fans are at least casualy familiar with Autechre and Aphex Twin. For the record, I'll admit to owning THE FAT OF THE LAND - which sits in my CD collection along with Coldcut, FSOL, Squarepusher, Muslimgauze and Scorn. Well, that's my two cents... - John Lee

Well, it had to happen eventually. The AFX v. Prodigy thread came up, and as expected, has already started a slew of "that's techno!" "that's IDM!" threads. Now, before I even _begin_ I'll just say that anyone rebutting my post with "This was originally an AFX list, therefore only RDJ is IDM!" will be directed to /dev/null. If we're going to define things that way, we may as well say Kraftwerk is the only electronic music, fold up shop, and go listen to Radio-Activity. Now for the cursed question, the one that is really at the heart of every STUPID argument on this list: What is IDM? This is something I've had extensive conversations about. Let's break it down. What makes music intelligent? There are a couple of takes on this. One, perhaps merely an inverse of the "stupid" dance music that is club techno. Well, let's take that down one more layer. What makes that music "stupid?" It doesn't bear up to repeat listenings, doesn't have psychological/emotional elements... all in all, a lack of complexity, lack of subtlety. After much analysis, it was established that one of the elements that makes music intelligent is subtlety, something which perhaps the "stupid" club techno doesn't posess. It doesn't have to do with musical complexity, specific elements, or style, but with a quality of depth and _mental_ complexity. Take any artist widely accepted as IDM and you'll find a large amount of subtlety, whether it be in rhythm, structure, tone, or just generally fucking with your mind. Now, the second part: dance. I won't linger here too long. It's my opinion that this is merely to distinguish it from, for instance, progressive rock. "Electronica" sure as hell wasn't a catchphrase that was in use when this list was formed, I assume, and so "dance music" was probably the best encompasing term. After all, "techno" seems to refer to the aforementioned "stupid" club techno. You can't dance to a lot of IDM. It doesn't really work as a defining part of the name. So, what does that give us? Subtle electronic-based music. Using this guages, you'll find that a number of artists fall into the "IDM" category. And you know what? IDM as a list _won't like that_. Why? Because IDM is an extremely elitist clan, trying to out-genrefy (is that a word) itself daily. Is Plastikman IDM? Sure. Lots of people have said so. Plastikman while minimalist maintains an enormous amount of subtlety and undeniable intelligence. What about Hardfloor? Before you spring to your toes and try to lynch me, consider their careful buildups, their exquisite use of the 303, their crashing climaxes, the twists and turns they take, and tell me that isn't subtle. Tell me that isn't intelligent. Tell me that isn't IDM. Which brings me back to the Prodigy. Now, to clarify, I'm not some freakish Prodigy fangirl. In fact, I didn't particularly even like them that much before someone made me sit down and listen to them, and try to appreciate them. I appreciated them more after I read some interviews with Liam about the music. I would love to know how many of the people who will just _bash_ on the Prodigy have ever sat in a dark room and listened to them as they would to an AFX record. Or read an interview with Liam. Despite the rather annoying vocal stylings (which I tend to think detract, yes) this is some really good music. It has complexity and depth, and bears repeat listenings to pick everything up. This music _is_ intelligent. Mention it on IDM. Watch yourself get flamed to pieces. As for the commercialization of it, if that's the only reason you dislike something, you're as bad as the people who like it only _because_ it's on MTV. Either way it's buying into something that has _nothing_ to do with the music itself. None of this is to say that everyone should love the Prodigy or they're the best thing since sliced bread. If you don't like them for your own reasons, _intelligent_ reasons, fine! I really don't care. Musical tastes will always differ. If they didn't, why bother discussing it at all? The point is that maybe people should consider their knee-jerk reactions before slinging mud. Frankly I'm tired of seeing artists refered to as "the evil anti-IDMers" and such. It's a broad category of music we love, and a little bit of acceptance and open mindedness wouldn't kill anyone. Flame away. grey. -- - greyrose@nervosa.sf.ca.us PS. Thanks go to Chris Layne for the extensive conversations on the topic that led to this thesis, and for exposing me to 2/3 of the music I listen to now.

On 25 Nov 97 at 8:54, grey wrote:

quoted 5 lines Now, to clarify, I'm not some freakish Prodigy fangirl. In fact, I

> Now, to clarify, I'm not some freakish Prodigy fangirl. In fact, I > didn't particularly even like them that much before someone made me > sit down and listen to them, and try to appreciate them. I > appreciated them more after I read some interviews with Liam about > the music.

S'funny, that was exactly what put me off them ... CC. __ |¬¬ The Cosmic Crofter crofter@ehx.ednet.co.uk - http://www.ednet.co.uk/~ehx LATEST LATEST LATEST LATEST LATEST LATEST LATEST LATEST BoC Samples from Demo Tape 6k CD Landstrumm Interview Reviews by Lance C McGannon Tales from the Cosmic Bothy REGULARS Edinburgh : Clubs DJs Studios Radio Venues Record Stores Internet Cafes Artists : Landstrumm Boards of Canada Schmidt 6k Stephen Brown Aqua Bassino Think Tank Labels : Sativae Scandinavia Subjective Pi Recordings In Demand T&B Vinyl Features : Interviews Charts Reviews Links Audio Comments For Sale Competitions

quoted 3 lines Is Plastikman IDM? Sure. Lots of people have said so. Plastikman while

>Is Plastikman IDM? Sure. Lots of people have said so. Plastikman while >minimalist maintains an enormous amount of subtlety and undeniable >intelligence.

quoted 1 line What about Hardfloor? Before you spring to your toes and try to lynch

>What about Hardfloor? Before you spring to your toes and try to lynch

me,

quoted 2 lines consider their careful buildups, their exquisite use of the 303, their

>consider their careful buildups, their exquisite use of the 303, their >crashing climaxes, the twists and turns they take, and tell me that

isn't

quoted 1 line subtle. Tell me that isn't intelligent.

>subtle. Tell me that isn't intelligent.

Right firstly you say that IDM isn't dance music, then you say that Plastikman and Hardfloor are IDM. Have you ever seen the effect that a Hardfloor track has on a dancefloor? I would say that a high percentage of IDM doesn't exactly set a dancefloor alight, but certain artists can be intelligent with their music without losing the dance edge (Hardfloor for one) I totally agree with you about the Prodigy though. I'll get a thousand abusive e-mails for this, but I would describe the Prodigy as IDM. Given that a lot of their stuff is crap, but listen to "Narayan" and take away the vocals and you're left with a very intelligent atmospheric piece of music - listen to Claustrophobic Sting. It's a shame that the MTV generation have picked up on Liam's work, but at least he still keeps the edge despite commercial pressures. See Ya Paul

On Tue, 25 Nov 1997, Paul McFadyen wrote:

quoted 13 lines Is Plastikman IDM? Sure. Lots of people have said so. Plastikman while

> >Is Plastikman IDM? Sure. Lots of people have said so. Plastikman while > >minimalist maintains an enormous amount of subtlety and undeniable > >intelligence. > > >What about Hardfloor? Before you spring to your toes and try to lynch > me, > >consider their careful buildups, their exquisite use of the 303, their > >crashing climaxes, the twists and turns they take, and tell me that > isn't > >subtle. Tell me that isn't intelligent. > > Right firstly you say that IDM isn't dance music, then you say that > Plastikman and Hardfloor are IDM.

Just to clarify, I never said it wasn't dance music. What I said was that "dance music" wasn't a useful phrase in defining IDM, because a lot of it _isn't_ dance music. It wasn't meant to be an exclusive statement. There's IDM that isn't dance music, IDM that is dance music, and, much to the chagrin and disgust of most list members, dance music that is IDM.

quoted 4 lines Have you ever seen the effect that a Hardfloor track has on a

> Have you ever seen the effect that a Hardfloor track has on a > dancefloor? I would say that a high percentage of IDM doesn't exactly > set a dancefloor alight, but certain artists can be intelligent with > their music without losing the dance edge (Hardfloor for one)

Exactly. Cool to see someone agrees.

quoted 3 lines I totally agree with you about the Prodigy though.

> I totally agree with you about the Prodigy though. > I'll get a thousand abusive e-mails for this, but I would describe the > Prodigy as IDM.

And that's the whole problem, that one can _expect_ to be flamed to hell and back for suggesting certain records are IDM, killing any intelligent conversation on the topic.

quoted 5 lines Given that a lot of their stuff is crap, but listen to "Narayan" and

> Given that a lot of their stuff is crap, but listen to "Narayan" and > take away the vocals and you're left with a very intelligent atmospheric > piece of music - listen to Claustrophobic Sting. It's a shame that the > MTV generation have picked up on Liam's work, but at least he still > keeps the edge despite commercial pressures.

Who cares if the 'MTV generation' picks up on it, as long as they don't sell out? My hope is that some of the kids who see Keith-The-Clown on MTV will get into the music itself, and branch into more of the truly incredible, less known stuff out there. I will never villify an act for making excellent music known - after all, if nobody knows about it, what good is it? grey -- - greyrose@nervosa.sf.ca.us

quoted 1 line Just to clarify, I never said it wasn't dance music.

>Just to clarify, I never said it wasn't dance music.

quoted 1 line What I said was that "dance music" wasn't a useful phrase in defining

>What I said was that "dance music" wasn't a useful phrase in defining

IDM,

quoted 2 lines because a lot of it _isn't_ dance music. It wasn't meant to be an

>because a lot of it _isn't_ dance music. It wasn't meant to be an >exclusive statement. There's IDM that isn't dance music, IDM that is

dance

quoted 2 lines music, and, much to the chagrin and disgust of most list members, dance

>music, and, much to the chagrin and disgust of most list members, dance >music that is IDM.

Ok - I agree totally.

quoted 1 line And that's the whole problem, that one can _expect_ to be flamed to

>And that's the whole problem, that one can _expect_ to be flamed to

hell

quoted 1 line and back for suggesting certain records are IDM, killing any

>and back for suggesting certain records are IDM, killing any

intelligent

quoted 1 line conversation on the topic.

>conversation on the topic.

Yeah, but I s'pose it'll liven things up once in a while.

quoted 1 line My hope is that some of the kids who see Keith-The-Clown on MTV will

>My hope is that some of the kids who see Keith-The-Clown on MTV will

get

quoted 1 line into the music itself, and branch into more of the truly incredible,

>into the music itself, and branch into more of the truly incredible,

less

quoted 2 lines known stuff out there. I will never villify an act for making excellent

>known stuff out there. I will never villify an act for making excellent >music known - after all, if nobody knows about it, what good is it?

Yup - this, too, is a good point. Hopefully someone will get into the Prodigy, then read the interviews and stuff and start looking into the music more. I just get annoyed when I see stupid metal kids with Prodigy t-shirts on. See Ya Paul

quoted 1 line What makes music intelligent?

> What makes music intelligent?

nothing particulary...

quoted 8 lines Now, the second part: dance.

> Now, the second part: dance. > > I won't linger here too long. > > It's my opinion that this is merely to distinguish it from, for instance, > progressive rock. "Electronica" sure as hell wasn't a catchphrase that > was in use when this list was formed, I assume, and so "dance music" was > probably the best encompasing term. After all, "techno" seems to refer to

the

quoted 2 lines aforementioned "stupid" club techno. You can't dance to a lot of IDM. It

> aforementioned "stupid" club techno. You can't dance to a lot of IDM. It > doesn't really work as a defining part of the name.

There is at least 90% of IDM, that is danceable , incl. AFX, mu-ZIQ, blah bla.... I like good club techno. . .and I kind any kind of techno can you do it there ain't nothin to it if you hear the music it'll be the chance let the dj guide you let him be inside you let him mesmerize you Can you still dance tell me,can you tell me,can you i wanna know tell me,can you Can you still dance Rob "oh for gods sake.... when are you people gonna get it into your head that Aphex, autechre, mu-ziq etc etc are all goddamn TECHNO, and thats exactly what they describe themselves as." Steve /k/./F/

quoted 4 lines What I said was that "dance music" wasn't a useful phrase in defining IDM,

> > What I said was that "dance music" wasn't a useful phrase in defining IDM, > because a lot of it _isn't_ dance music. It wasn't meant to be an > exclusive statement. There's IDM that isn't dance music,

I dunno. I've been going to "rave" parties more often lately than I have ever gone to in my life. Here in LA, unfortunately TRANCE seems dominate the majority of the parties. After looking around at the silly ways people dance (most of it looks like they're on invisible pogo sticks) I could see myself DANCING to every frigging IDM piece of music I own. I can't dance for shit to a straight 4 on the floor uncomplicated song by _The Infinity Project_. Therefor, my stupid "dancing" would prolly fit in more with a wicked Autechre track. Fuckit all IDM is DANCE MUSIC. If not, why do TWO of the 3 letters stand for DANCE MUSIC? It's all danceable, pal. Even if it's got no beat, it could be danced to. (at least my modern dance friend says so, and she's a professional:) snip

quoted 2 lines Who cares if the 'MTV generation' picks up on it, as long as they don't

> Who cares if the 'MTV generation' picks up on it, as long as they don't > sell out?

I think this is what I find to be my biggest gripe with the prodigy. I don't care for them all that much, but jesus they look like a bunch of Marylin Manson types with all that make up and shit they wear. You say that they are IDM. FINE. But they have got to be Sell out IDM'ers cuz I don't know any other fucking IDM artist's that wear make up, spend all their money piercing and tattoing themselves and shout "WE ROCK!" at their concerts. they sold themselves out to the ROCKnROLL method of making money. as far as their music goes: I love the EXPERIENCE album. It's just one of those silly old skool techno albums that has those high pitched "one!two!three!four!" samples in it. Other than that CD, I can't stand the P's music, but whatever. Their selling out cannot be disputed. For some reason, I expect a counter argument saying "Oh and RDJ is not a sell out either? He's on a Major label (SIRE) and has his video on MTV" I know somebody is thinking this way. Being on MTV and on a major label has nothing to do with selling out. Selling out is letting yerself get co-opted by the industry. Honestly, look at Prodigy and then look at Green Day and you will see many many similarities, but Green Day aren't as pathetic.

quoted 5 lines My hope is that some of the kids who see Keith-The-Clown on MTV will get

> > My hope is that some of the kids who see Keith-The-Clown on MTV will get > into the music itself, and branch into more of the truly incredible, less > known stuff out there. I will never villify an act for making excellent > music known - after all, if nobody knows about it, what good is it?

Uhmmm, I think plenty of people know about without the help of Mtv. Techno never needed Mtv nor a specific ACT to expand itself. It was all word of mouth or being handed a mixtape for me. IMO it'd be better for the newbies to learn this way. I tend to think that if a newbie is turned on to a tune simply by hearing it played thru my stereo, or something similar, he/she will appreciate the music for what it is. By being turned on to it, by what's on TV or Rolling Stone cover has the POTENTIAL, read _potential_, to simply like it b/c it is a fad. That is exactly what alternative music suffered. If a newbie hears prodigy and then gets into more excellent electronic music, more power to them, but I doubt 95% of the people who look at Mtv for their avenue into "new" genres ever really stick it out with that specific genre for the long haul. I mean my days of Iron Maiden fandom are over. WHY? Prolly b/c Mtv got rid of the HEadbangers Ball. No the truth is a grew outta the fad. In the end, I can't blame Prodigy for one ounce of what they do. If I was in a position like that, I'd milk it for every fucking penny too!Yep, I'm being somewhat hypocritical. It's like the saying "We all hate the rich, but we want to be rich!" dance yer ass ass off, gil np: Rave til Dawn (flame away)

On Wed, 26 Nov 1997, galaxey gil wrote:

quoted 5 lines For some reason, I expect a counter argument saying "Oh and RDJ is not

> For some reason, I expect a counter argument saying "Oh and RDJ is not > a sell out either? He's on a Major label (SIRE) and has his video on > MTV" I know somebody is thinking this way. Being on MTV and on a major > label has nothing to do with selling out. Selling out is letting > yerself get co-opted by the industry.

Thank you, Gil! I'm glad someone finally had the sense to point this out! There are way too many purists who think that just signing to a major label and being played on MTV means selling out, and way too many mainstream listeners who think all of us underground music fans think this way. And the people in both those categories are off the mark. When Gil says "letting yourself get co-opted by the industry," I assume he means WAY more than a major-label deal, MTV airplay, or even large record sales. He's talking about bands that act like "rock stars." Bands which jump into the music/media industry machine full hog - high-profile public appearances, pix on the front covers of ROLLING STONE or SPIN, making news in the tabloids, songs for big-budget Hollywood movie soundtracks, and playing on the MTV Video Music Awards or commercial-radio-sponsored events.

quoted 11 lines I tend to think that if a newbie is turned on to a tune simply by

> I tend to think that if a newbie is turned on to a tune simply by > hearing it played thru my stereo, or something similar, he/she will > appreciate the music for what it is. By being turned on to it, by > what's on TV or Rolling Stone cover has the POTENTIAL, read > _potential_, to simply like it b/c it is a fad. That is exactly what > alternative music suffered. If a newbie hears prodigy and then gets > into more excellent electronic music, more power to them, but I doubt > 95% of the people who look at Mtv for their avenue into "new" genres > ever really stick it out with that specific genre for the long haul. I > mean my days of Iron Maiden fandom are over. WHY? Prolly b/c Mtv got > rid of the HEadbangers Ball. No the truth is a grew outta the fad.

Gil has just said EXACTLY what I was pointing out in my previous post. Your typical mainstream listener who gets into musical genre X (whether it's hardcore punk, indie pop, IDM, country, skinflute music, etc) because it's the big trend of the moment won't be inclined to attach any kind of deep-rooted loyalty to the genre, and they're not going to look beneath the surface to find obscure artists in that genre or stick with that genre when it's no longer the current fad. When I was growing up (I'm 28 now), kids were more inclined to identify themselves with a specific genre of music. That's not so much the case now; your typical mainstream listener isn't tied to any one particular type of music. That doesn't mean they're any more open-minded; it just means they'll eat up anything they're spoon-fed by the major labels, mainstream radio and MTV, but they won't bother to look beyond. Why do you think there's so many people who say "I listen to everything" or "I like all kinds of music" when they really mean they listen to the bands from different kinds of music who are all on the Top 40 charts like Offspring (punk), Puff Daddy (rap), Prodigy (IDM), and No Doubt (alternative)? I agree with Gil that 95% of the people who look to MTV for new genres don't stay with those genres. Yes, there are a few kids seeing Prodigy on MTV who'll get turned on to more adventurous IDM like AFX or Squarepusher, just like there were kids who saw Nirvana and Green Day who were turned on to punk enough to discover the likes of Teengenerate, Sleater-Kinney and Unwound. But methinks those people already had the kind of initiative and curiosity such that they would have discovered more underground punk or IDM on their own anyway even without the help of MTV. - John Lee

quoted 15 lines Which brings me back to the Prodigy.

> >Which brings me back to the Prodigy. > >Now, to clarify, I'm not some freakish Prodigy fangirl. In fact, I didn't >particularly even like them that much before someone made me sit down >and listen to them, and try to appreciate them. I appreciated them more >after I read some interviews with Liam about the music. > >I would love to know how many of the people who will just _bash_ on the >Prodigy have ever sat in a dark room and listened to them as they would >to an AFX record. Or read an interview with Liam. Despite the rather >annoying vocal stylings (which I tend to think detract, yes) this is >some really good music. It has complexity and depth, and bears repeat >listenings to pick everything up. This music _is_ intelligent. >

You have resumed very well exactly what I think about them.

quoted 7 lines Mention it on IDM. Watch yourself get flamed to pieces.

>Mention it on IDM. Watch yourself get flamed to pieces. > >As for the commercialization of it, if that's the only reason you dislike >something, you're as bad as the people who like it only _because_ it's on >MTV. Either way it's buying into something that has _nothing_ to do with >the music itself. >

That was the best paragraph I've ever read in these few days participating in this list. Some people told me about how the Prodigy's success was causing a bad reaction in the UK underground techno/IDM/electronic scene, with fans throwing out and passing by the old releases of the band. I couldn't believe this is true. Why throwing out a record you've bought because the newest release of the band sounds not so good or even more commercial? I like Fat Of The Land, but... yeah, I agree it is not as... ahnnn... 'intelligent' -- use here the word you like -- as The Prodigy Experience or Music For... But I wouldn't never pass away these two, i spent my money in it because I LIKE THE MUSIC, and even if Liam kill Queen Elizabeth I wouldn't change my mind about it. (Oh, maybe this possibility would be nice for some of you Uk freaks :-)))

quoted 10 lines None of this is to say that everyone should love the Prodigy or they're the

>None of this is to say that everyone should love the Prodigy or they're the >best thing since sliced bread. If you don't like them for your own reasons, >_intelligent_ reasons, fine! I really don't care. Musical tastes will >always differ. If they didn't, why bother discussing it at all? > >The point is that maybe people should consider their knee-jerk reactions >before slinging mud. Frankly I'm tired of seeing artists refered to as >"the evil anti-IDMers" and such. It's a broad category of music we love, >and a little bit of acceptance and open mindedness wouldn't kill anyone. >

Surely.

quoted 4 lines Flame away.

>Flame away. > >grey. >

<>´s Fabio Macedo Webdesigner - Rio de Janeiro - Brasil fabiomacedo@radnet.com.br

quoted 5 lines My hope is that some of the kids who see Keith-The-Clown on MTV will get

> My hope is that some of the kids who see Keith-The-Clown on MTV will get > into the music itself, and branch into more of the truly incredible, less > known stuff out there. I will never villify an act for making excellent > music known - after all, if nobody knows about it, what good is it? >

<<<<<<< But its all about how they make themsleves known. If I have to paint my hair and pierce my face up to "make my music known", one should wonder how good my music is to begin with.

quoted 1 line

>>>>>>>

Have you ever consider the possibility that some people paint their hair and put piercings on their body because they want -- and/or they like -- to do this? Cheers Fabio Macedo is married with a girl who has various piercings since 4, 5 years ago and has painted his hair since 1989 Webdesigner - Rio de Janeiro - Brasil fabiomacedo@radnet.com.br

quoted 2 lines For some reason, I expect a counter argument saying "Oh and RDJ is not

>For some reason, I expect a counter argument saying "Oh and RDJ is not >a sell out either?

Well, I don't see RDJ as a "sell out." I think he uses Sire as a means of getting his music out to the states, Plain and simple.

quoted 1 line My hope is that some of the kids who see Keith-The-Clown

>> My hope is that some of the kids who see Keith-The-Clown

Keith is not Prodigy. Keith is Keith. Liam is the sole music maker behind Prodigy. Really, If you had a band, whatever, and you were making music. You would have to ask the rest of them, "does that sound good!" Ha! thats why RDJ & some other artist work alone. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

quoted 2 lines But its all about how they make themsleves known. If I have to paint my

>But its all about how they make themsleves known. If I have to paint my >hair and pierce my face up to "make my music known", one should wonder

how

quoted 2 lines good my music is to begin with.

>good my music is to begin with. >

If we never knew anything about Prodigy, and were as "wishy washy" or "mysterious" I guess, as say... RDJ, would we like them on that merit alone? Maybe! IMO, I really don't care what the artist looked like. I don't buy their music because of an image thing, I buy it because of the music. If RDJ cut his hair like Keith. I would laugh and I wouls STILL buy RSJ's music. Scott C. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com